Guest guest Posted December 29, 2004 Report Share Posted December 29, 2004 In a message dated 12/30/2004 2:58:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, crumpo@... writes: I thank you for your kind overture, and I apologize if I am coming on too negatively. I really just wanted to know why that person thought those things about Christianity that weren't factual, but it turned into an attack on Ed. When am I gonna learn my lesson? My data is 11/22/66, 8:55 AM CST, Chicago, IL. I thought I recognized that " Rhetoric " ! Hey everybody,,, " It's Mr. Ed, the Talking Sage-Fire Horse, of course, of course,,, " ! Haven't seen the likes of this character since Mike D, left, LOL! What's not to like about him, cept mebbe his dismal outlook on religgin, American Style that is, double LOL! Well sir, I'd like to extend you a personal welcome to Jung-Fire also. And that's coming from a rather gregorious geomantic goat that likes to pretend to be a dog, just to keep folks gathered here guessing! I'm sure your input to the group will come in handy once the people on the list get used to your style. The Mutt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 In a message dated 12/30/2004 7:28:23 AM Central Standard Time, hoon@... writes: >For what it is worth, I have at least one problem with each and every >person here, and, getting used to their 'style' hasn't helped much! Hey! Whaddid I ever do to you?!! LOL Namasté Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§ Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart. Who looks outside, dreams. Who looks inside awakens. -- Carl Gustav Jung ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````` " There are some people who live in a dream world, and there are some who face reality; and then there are those who turn one into the other. " -- Everett ````````````````````````````````````````````````````` The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails. Arthur Ward (1921-1994) ````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Vision without action is a daydream. Action without vision is a nightmare. ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` " What we think or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only thing of consequence is what we do. " -- Ruskin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 Mr Ed, I have no intention of holding any discussion with you on your Political or religious views, but i would suggest that you not assume as much as you did. First, i belong to no religious organization and secondly I was an ardent Kerry fan and a life long Democrat( too liberal by some people's standards) even when they only seem the less of two evils. In fact I worked at the polls, and actively supported him. Had you read the archives of this list you would have found much concern and anguish over the late election. Contrary to your perception we care very much about the state of affairs in the world and here in our country. My assumption is, and I may be wrong, that I know a lot more about Christianity and its history, theology and Scripture than you, since I studied it most of my life and even taught it.I keep up with current findings, translations,views, and reinterpretations. As much as is at presently known,I endeavor to be aware of. I also know about the " facts " It is , in fact, my main occupation, along with constant rereading of Jung...as I am retired. It is always a mistake to make assumptions not based on fact, so I may be as wrong as you are.If you are a scholar on these subjects, I apologize, but that is not what my poor brain made of your attacks. So in tirades, please keep the assumptions down...when speaking personally . To me, at least..I try not to attack any person whom I do not know. In fact, I do try not attack anyone as far as I am conscious of. I Do however sometimes return the anger, and an attack " off the top of my head " without thinking first. I attacked your manner and your tone, because here we have been used to respecting even those whose views we disagree with and disparage If, in the opinion of someone I respect a great deal and love, I used ad hominem remarks, I apologize. I never meant to indulge in attacking " you " , just your manners, and your jumping to conclusions.I am, I am sure as passionate about my pet subjects as you are.But it is possible to disagree without violent words. I personally find discourse more pleasant when the assumption is made that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and not to denigrate the opinion of others. That is my personal view, as is the comment I made about style, manners and style. I would say the same to anyone who addressed me as you did. My anger has dissipated, be assured. My feeling about the style of writing remains.I felt your post and your style of writing was very provoking . Just wanted to clear up anything Alice may have felt was improper of me.I hate the idea of being guilty of what I blamed another for.Damn that inflation! Sorry , Alice, I was overwhelmed by my anger. I reread my post, and yes, it was ad hominem...will I never learn? As the Marines say " no excuses , Sir " Toni Re: Ed K! Hi, Of course I have heard of you!! I think I have your Jung book somewhere, as I have made it my goal to own every astrology book, even though I will never get to read many of them. I thank you for your kind overture, and I apologize if I am coming on too negatively. I really just wanted to know why that person thought those things about Christianity that weren't factual, but it turned into an attack on Ed. When am I gonna learn my lesson? My data is 11/22/66, 8:55 AM CST, Chicago, IL. I agree completely, too, that astrology is a great tool for tolerance of others' opinions and behaviors. It's my only belief system, and it's based on math rather than old phony stories. Also, I don't believe for one second that Bush actually won this last election. The numbers don't add up. Simple as that. The problem is that America has become a vast wasteland of lazy-ass schmucks who would rather let fascism through the door than get up and lock it. Forget all this crappola about " values " and " fundamentalists. " It's really about aloofness, coldness, coolness, detachment, disinterest, dispassion, disregard, dullness, emotionlessness, halfheartedness, heedlessness, indifference, insensibility, insensitivity, insouciance, lassitude, lethargy, listlessness, passiveness, passivity, stoicism, unconcern, unresponsiveness, and finally, just plain ignorance. I say this because the USAnian mythology is that of Jerry Springer, WWF, Star Wars, and the NFL, and such symbolic spiels are hardly worth a crap. Oh, wait, I forgot O.J.! Jesus mythology is enacted approximately twice every year, at the spring equinox and the winter solstice, and badly at that. The rest of the time the myth lies dormant, suffocating in the soupy bile of faith healers and sooth-sayers such as on and his ilk. " Jesus and money will make a man speak in tongues.. Scream out his lungs, roll in the dung.. And when the song is sung, he moves up another rung.. And the deaf and the dumb are the ones who get stung. " I'm sure that the red-stater who voted for the Chimpster would never think she voted for " fascism, " but indeed she has. Fascism is not a symbolic thing, either. It's a political reality that has proven harmful to most of the world's population. Cleaning up this mess will take a generation, probably, but thank God we have Christianity as an excuse for those who voted for Bush! On this point, I feel the need to tell her that she has blundered. Sorry, but this is my reality, and my reality is an educated one. No symbolism or archetypal wafting will solve the problem of the misinformed. We have a big, big problem in the nation, folks, and it's name is Bush/Cheney. Get a clue, for heaven's sake. We're not getting any Jung-er, are we, by splitting hairs over rhetorical arguments about psychology and mythology, but alas this group is about doing just that, and occasionally chiming in about why religion is such a gift to the planet. Perhaps someday religion will be used for the actual benefit of mankind, but if it hasn't for thousands of years, I doubt it will within our own brief lifespan. I say all this because there really should be no other topic on our plate. What would Jung say about the abundance of cognitive dissonance that is ringing throughout the land? Neptune, Neptune, Neptune? Religion is ruled by Jupiter, which is now in a trine to Neppy. Malaise accompanied by tsunamis of disinformation and deception rolling into our unprotected psyches with every Faux News show? Ahhg, what's the use. It's an honor speaking with you, AO. My Plutonian heart goes out to you!! - Ed K > Well, a fellow astrologer! > > I have been one for 60 yrs n studied w/Marc Edmund . I have written 2 > bks on astrol wh u might enjoy: JUNGIAN SYMBOLISM IN ASTROLOGY wh might combine > yr potential interest in this grp. It might prove helpful to view the cht as a > description of how a person is likely to process experience. This makes one > far more tolerant of other peop's povs!:} > > Toni is a much loved member of this list - she wrestles mightily to avoid ad > hominem attacks! but red flags were up. As a newcomer, wld u introduce yrself > at greater length..wh do u live/ wh do u do? etc. > > we are a motley crew but our focus lies w/jung n we have lively discussions n > truly care ab eachother in a supportive way. we care. > > i am one of the moderators n am 82 n have had a strke n canna use my rt hand, > hence these crazy abbrevs n today my caps aren't working! > > i am the author of 7 bks n u cn check em out on www.amazon.com n ask for > alice o howell, if u're curious. > > the other moderators are zozie - phoebe wray - n marshkan -greg rieke, > wonderful peop who i have met in pers.. > > wh is yr b'day? > > none of us are christian fundamentalists n u are not the only agnostic . > personally, i prefer the esoteric dimensions of ALL the religions rather than the > exoteric, dogmatic teachings. i find that the mystics all agree there is only > ONE WAY w/in each individ. > > i think atheists have rejected the definitions of 'God' on the level beneath > them. at least they have giv the quest some thought! prob shld try anoth level > n keep looking. i became a dedic atheist wh i was 12. we were in portugal n i > told my mother. she said, 'well be a good one! > > then she asked me why. i told her that i had had christianity up the kazoo in > boardschool n nobody practiced wh they were teaching n besides NOBODY was > going to tell me that a snake hung on a tree n spoke engliush!! > > prob hebrew, said she, but then she told me there were other religs n why not > study them. my sun is in the 9th house. so i did just that for the next 9 > yrs. nightly. by the time i was 21 i knew a lot ABOUT religs but no experience > that i cld connect to my studies. then my father sent me to an astrologer. > ASTROLOGY!! i mocked - that's superstitious twaddle for nincompoops. my fath said > he wld pay for it n sceptic scorpio i went n EXPERIENCED a revelation that answ > many many quests. i am still studying bec now i amconvinced there IS an > answer even if at the ego level i will never know it only the heart. jung said that > for some the longest journey is fr the mind to the heart. > > petrus bonus, alchemist wrote - the secret of the philosopher's stone is to > look w/the eyes n see w/the heart. [we need a loving eye] > > the interest thing ab atheists is if they just think they are the product of > developing matter, then their brains wld be of the same origin, n if so - what > value can their opinions have!! :} > > if u stick ar w/us, it wld help to be open to thinking symboluically rather > than literally - we all seem to agree on this, so it saves time not having to > explain some odd remarks.. > > we do have a lot of fun bec there is joy in wisdom n wisdom in joy. hagia > sophia. > > so don't get yr knickers in a twist, draw up to the fire, feel its warmth, n > throw on a stick or two. > > the neat thing ab a circle is there's always room for one more! n obviously > each point on the circumferene sees the rest fr a unique pov........... > > love > > old motherator > > ao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 Ed Kohout wrote: Dear Ed, Stoicism and " just plain ignorance " don't go together. I voted for Bush, but I am not a Christian. I am trying to recover a more classic sensibility, I guess. Jung helps, as does Nietzsche (probably my favorite philosopher). I don't know that I am any less informed than the next guy (although I don't have any " insider information " ). Some people just don't necessarily agree that a political order devoted to universal peace, prosperity, safety and entertainment is the best one; certainly it is not self evident that that is the best goal for a polity. Religion is not " for the benefit of mankind, " except incidentally. Religion as I understand it is about subjection of the will to G-d for the sake of G-d. I don't practice any religion myself, but as far as I know, that's what it's about. Best, Dan Watkins >Hi, > >Of course I have heard of you!! I think I have your Jung book >somewhere, as I have made it my goal to own every astrology book, even >though I will never get to read many of them. > >I thank you for your kind overture, and I apologize if I am coming on >too negatively. I really just wanted to know why that person thought >those things about Christianity that weren't factual, but it turned >into an attack on Ed. When am I gonna learn my lesson? > >My data is 11/22/66, 8:55 AM CST, Chicago, IL. > >I agree completely, too, that astrology is a great tool for tolerance >of others' opinions and behaviors. It's my only belief system, and >it's based on math rather than old phony stories. > >Also, I don't believe for one second that Bush actually won this last >election. The numbers don't add up. Simple as that. The problem is >that America has become a vast wasteland of lazy-ass schmucks who >would rather let fascism through the door than get up and lock it. > >Forget all this crappola about " values " and " fundamentalists. " It's >really about aloofness, coldness, coolness, detachment, disinterest, >dispassion, disregard, dullness, emotionlessness, halfheartedness, >heedlessness, indifference, insensibility, insensitivity, insouciance, >lassitude, lethargy, listlessness, passiveness, passivity, stoicism, >unconcern, unresponsiveness, and finally, just plain ignorance. > >I say this because the USAnian mythology is that of Jerry Springer, >WWF, Star Wars, and the NFL, and such symbolic spiels are hardly worth >a crap. Oh, wait, I forgot O.J.! > >Jesus mythology is enacted approximately twice every year, at the >spring equinox and the winter solstice, and badly at that. The rest >of the time the myth lies dormant, suffocating in the soupy bile of >faith healers and sooth-sayers such as on and his ilk. " Jesus >and money will make a man speak in tongues.. Scream out his lungs, >roll in the dung.. And when the song is sung, he moves up another >rung.. And the deaf and the dumb are the ones who get stung. " > >I'm sure that the red-stater who voted for the Chimpster would never >think she voted for " fascism, " but indeed she has. Fascism is not a >symbolic thing, either. It's a political reality that has proven >harmful to most of the world's population. Cleaning up this mess will >take a generation, probably, but thank God we have Christianity as an >excuse for those who voted for Bush! > >On this point, I feel the need to tell her that she has blundered. >Sorry, but this is my reality, and my reality is an educated one. No >symbolism or archetypal wafting will solve the problem of the misinformed. > >We have a big, big problem in the nation, folks, and it's name is >Bush/Cheney. Get a clue, for heaven's sake. > >We're not getting any Jung-er, are we, by splitting hairs over >rhetorical arguments about psychology and mythology, but alas this >group is about doing just that, and occasionally chiming in about why >religion is such a gift to the planet. > >Perhaps someday religion will be used for the actual benefit of >mankind, but if it hasn't for thousands of years, I doubt it will >within our own brief lifespan. > >I say all this because there really should be no other topic on our >plate. What would Jung say about the abundance of cognitive >dissonance that is ringing throughout the land? Neptune, Neptune, >Neptune? Religion is ruled by Jupiter, which is now in a trine to >Neppy. Malaise accompanied by tsunamis of disinformation and >deception rolling into our unprotected psyches with every Faux News >show? > >Ahhg, what's the use. > >It's an honor speaking with you, AO. My Plutonian heart goes out to you!! > >- Ed K > > > > > > > > > > >>Well, a fellow astrologer! >> >>I have been one for 60 yrs n studied w/Marc Edmund . I have >> >> >written 2 > > >>bks on astrol wh u might enjoy: JUNGIAN SYMBOLISM IN ASTROLOGY wh >> >> >might combine > > >>yr potential interest in this grp. It might prove helpful to view >> >> >the cht as a > > >>description of how a person is likely to process experience. This >> >> >makes one > > >>far more tolerant of other peop's povs!:} >> >>Toni is a much loved member of this list - she wrestles mightily to >> >> >avoid ad > > >>hominem attacks! but red flags were up. As a newcomer, wld u >> >> >introduce yrself > > >>at greater length..wh do u live/ wh do u do? etc. >> >>we are a motley crew but our focus lies w/jung n we have lively >> >> >discussions n > > >>truly care ab eachother in a supportive way. we care. >> >>i am one of the moderators n am 82 n have had a strke n canna use my >> >> >rt hand, > > >>hence these crazy abbrevs n today my caps aren't working! >> >>i am the author of 7 bks n u cn check em out on www.amazon.com n >> >> >ask for > > >>alice o howell, if u're curious. >> >>the other moderators are zozie - phoebe wray - n marshkan -greg rieke, >>wonderful peop who i have met in pers.. >> >>wh is yr b'day? >> >>none of us are christian fundamentalists n u are not the only >> >> >agnostic . > > >>personally, i prefer the esoteric dimensions of ALL the religions >> >> >rather than the > > >>exoteric, dogmatic teachings. i find that the mystics all agree >> >> >there is only > > >>ONE WAY w/in each individ. >> >>i think atheists have rejected the definitions of 'God' on the level >> >> >beneath > > >>them. at least they have giv the quest some thought! prob shld try >> >> >anoth level > > >>n keep looking. i became a dedic atheist wh i was 12. we were in >> >> >portugal n i > > >>told my mother. she said, 'well be a good one! >> >>then she asked me why. i told her that i had had christianity up the >> >> >kazoo in > > >>boardschool n nobody practiced wh they were teaching n besides >> >> >NOBODY was > > >>going to tell me that a snake hung on a tree n spoke engliush!! >> >>prob hebrew, said she, but then she told me there were other religs >> >> >n why not > > >>study them. my sun is in the 9th house. so i did just that for the >> >> >next 9 > > >>yrs. nightly. by the time i was 21 i knew a lot ABOUT religs but no >> >> >experience > > >>that i cld connect to my studies. then my father sent me to an >> >> >astrologer. > > >>ASTROLOGY!! i mocked - that's superstitious twaddle for nincompoops. >> >> >my fath said > > >>he wld pay for it n sceptic scorpio i went n EXPERIENCED a >> >> >revelation that answ > > >>many many quests. i am still studying bec now i amconvinced there IS an >>answer even if at the ego level i will never know it only the heart. >> >> >jung said that > > >>for some the longest journey is fr the mind to the heart. >> >>petrus bonus, alchemist wrote - the secret of the philosopher's >> >> >stone is to > > >>look w/the eyes n see w/the heart. [we need a loving eye] >> >>the interest thing ab atheists is if they just think they are the >> >> >product of > > >>developing matter, then their brains wld be of the same origin, n if >> >> >so - what > > >>value can their opinions have!! :} >> >>if u stick ar w/us, it wld help to be open to thinking symboluically >> >> >rather > > >>than literally - we all seem to agree on this, so it saves time not >> >> >having to > > >>explain some odd remarks.. >> >>we do have a lot of fun bec there is joy in wisdom n wisdom in joy. >> >> >hagia > > >>sophia. >> >>so don't get yr knickers in a twist, draw up to the fire, feel its >> >> >warmth, n > > >>throw on a stick or two. >> >>the neat thing ab a circle is there's always room for one more! n >> >> >obviously > > >>each point on the circumferene sees the rest fr a unique pov........... >> >>love >> >>old motherator >> >>ao >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 --- Ed Kohout wrote: > Perhaps someday religion will be used for the actual > benefit of mankind, but if it hasn't for thousands >of years, I doubt it will within our own brief >lifespan. Ed, I appreciate and agree with much of the angst you have expressed here. And as much as I personally believe that Christ's message/myth has been badly perverted and misinterpreted by many who have the power to shape dogma and public opinion in his name, I have not given up hope. Each generation much read the Word for themselves. It has power and force or it would not have lived this long. But it is now groaning under the weight of centuries of abuse IMO. There are many voices of those who read it clearly though, and who act with the peace and compassion of which Christ speaks so powerfully in the gospels. One such interpreter who I have appreciated much in recent years is that of Tim Freke, author of THE JESUS MYSTERIES. You might find it refreshing. And he is not the only voice worth hearing, by any means. But like the person who spoke about the feeling of Christ through the holy Eucharist on Christmas eve, I too participated in the holy meal this year. I did so at a Catholic mass in Denver. I am not a RC, nor do I live in Denver. But I was welcome to the table nonetheless, and I did feel an at-one-ment with those others assembled in his name, even though we probably all had a different interpretation of its meaning. At this time of darkness, seasonally and nationally, I hope that the meaning of the season of light - however we choose to interpret it or take it in - is accepted as an opportunity to cleanse us. We will surely need it in the months and years ahead. We can either become cynical and curse the dark....or light a candle in that darkness. It is really a choice, or so it seems to me. Peace, Greg __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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