Re: Re: states' rights+ Buddha

[Guest guest]

Newsweek poll:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6650997/site/newsweek/

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[Guest guest]

all,

Here's the entire article.

regards,

in Clepheland

The Christmas Miracle

Most Americans believe the virgin birth is literally true, a NEWSWEEK

poll finds

WEB EXCLUSIVE

Newsweek

Updated: 2:08 p.m. ET Dec. 5, 2004

Dec. 5 - Seventy-nine percent of Americans believe that, as the Bible

says, Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin , without a human

father, according to a new NEWSWEEK poll on beliefs about Jesus.

Sixty-seven percent say they believe that the entire story of

Christmas‹the Virgin Birth, the angelic proclamation to the

shepherds, the Star of Bethlehem and the Wise Men from the East‹is

historically accurate. Twenty-four percent of Americans believe the

story of Christmas is a theological invention written to affirm faith

in Jesus Christ, the poll shows. In general, say 55 percent of those

polled, every word of the Bible is literally accurate. Thirty-eight

percent do not believe that about the Bible.

In the NEWSWEEK poll, 93 percent of Americans say they believe Jesus

Christ actually lived and 82 percent believe Jesus Christ was God or

the Son of God. Fifty-two percent of all those polled believe, as the

Bible proclaims, that Jesus will return to earth someday; 21 percent

do not believe it. Fifteen percent believe Jesus will return in their

lifetime; 47 percent do not, the poll shows.

When asked if there would be more or less kindness in the world today

if there had never been a Jesus, 61 percent of all those polled say

there would be less kindness. Forty-seven percent say there would be

more war if there had never been a Jesus (16 percent say less, 26

percent say the same); 63 percent say there would be less charity; 58

percent say there would be less tolerance; 59 percent say there would

be less personal happiness and 38 percent say there would be less

religious divisions (21 percent say more and 26 percent say the same).

Just 11 percent of those surveyed say American society as a whole

very closely reflects true Christian values and the spirit of Jesus;

53 percent say it somewhat reflects those values. But 86 percent say

they believe organized religion has a ³a lot² or ³some² influence

over life in the United States today. Nine percent say it has ³only a

little² influence.

Sixty-two percent say they favor teaching creation science in

addition to evolution in public schools; 26 percent oppose such

teaching, the poll shows. Forty-three percent favor teaching creation

science instead of evolution in public schools; 40 percent oppose the

idea.

For this NEWSWEEK Poll, Princeton Survey Research Associates

interviewed by telephone 1,009 adults, aged 18 and older on Dec. 2

and Dec. 3. The margin of error is plus or minus 3 percentage points.

[Guest guest]

Dearest Alice,

As soon as I got ready for my nap, I realized what I had written...the old me. I

have since tried to apologize for exactly what you saw.

You were right and I am grateful you called me on it. I am working slowly on

myself. All that ranting and raving does is make me look good for those who

agree with me, ( see how good and caring I am)and that is not the object at all.

Pride does pester me...forever I guess.

I need not go to Buddha though I often do, all I have to do is listen to my

soul....which I didn't until it was too late.I see things so much clearer

nowadays, but I still do not always look and listen.

Thanks, Alice

with love,

Toni

Re: states' rights+ Buddha

In a message dated 12/6/04 11:04:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,

omagramps410@... writes:

If a part of all the ranting and raving to deny others the use of their own

souls to decide a personal issue, were used to feed the newborn and help then

get a good start in life...that would be pro-life.. To believe in the absence

of preemptive war ...that would be pro life. To stop murdering some

criminals...that would be pro life, and to support the people too weak or

unable to help

themselves...that would be pro life.To promote the banning of automatic

weapons, now that would be pro life

Dear Toni, this is well put BUT watch the ad hominem!!:} Wh people have a

very strong feeling function, esp women (!) the animus grabs us every time.

I recommend a rereading of ANIMAL FARM by Orwell as a parable for our

times. Remember the horse Boxer? Faithful to the party all the way to the glue

factory..........We need, imo to be alert. I find it troubling to have all 3

branches of our gov ruled by the same political voice. This cld bode trouble,

bec if there were a real crisis the public in desperation might then take to

the streets n our public is well-armed, thanks to the NRA, n it cld be an ugly

scenario, esp. if 40 % of the country, it is said, believes in the " End

Times " .

It cld be the U.S.'s version of " Allah akbhar! "

Liberals as a label does not differentiate. Not all are enamored of pop

culture, licentiousness, grundge, drugs et al. These are adolescent values fed

by

the media n financial greed. As such, the vacuum is rightfully being filled by

" moral values " as a needed balance. The trap for that is judgmental

righteousness n a condemning of freedom of other forms of worship. Using poor

Jesus as a

cudgel is a total twisting of his teaching! See Toni's quote above.........

Maybe we shld study Buddhism more. It does not call itself a 'religion' nor

does it seek to convert. It is in its highest teaching 'a way of life " n one

can be a Jewish, or Christian, or Moslem n not be turned away. The Noble

Eight-fold Path is one I have memorized many, many years ago. It is not based

on

prohibitions but rather on solutions.

THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS

1. There is suffering in this world.

2. All suffering comes from selfish desire and ignorance.

3. There is a way out of this suffering.

4. The way out is to follow the Noble Eight-fold Path

THE EIGHT-FOLD PATH

RIGHT VIEWS

Free from superstition and delusion

RIGHT ASPIRATIONS

High, worthy of the intelligent, worthy

of mankind

RIGHT SPEECH

Kindly, open and truthful

RIGHT CONDUCT

Peaceful, honest and pure

RIGHT LIVING

Bringing no hurt or danger to any living

RIGHT EFFORT

In self-training and self-control

RIGHT MINDFULNESS

The active, watchful mind

RIGHT RAPTURE

In deep meditation on the realities of

life.

Gautama

Buddha ( 5th Cent B.C.)

I find this to come close to what Jung would agree with and most of us,

hopfully, in this group.

Love n peace!

ao

[Guest guest]

all,

Meanwhile, while many Americans are enjoying their medieval moral

superiority and magical beliefs and acting out their " deepest

spiritual aspirations " , their tax dollars as well as all other US

taxpayers' (my own too,) dollars are very hard at work effecting the

power principle in a foreign land.

" Generation Kill: Devil Dogs, Iceman, Captain America and the New

Face of American War by Evan is an account of the invasion by

a reporter embedded with the Marines. It is a much better book than

the title would indicate‹not to mention the cover art of a grim

solder in desert camouflage with an assault rifle, and the ridiculous

excerpt on the back, a near parody of me-as-hero war reporting:

gave up his satellite phone, unlike his colleagues in the

electronic media, who replaced reporting with a breathless

play-by-play description of what their cameras were showing viewers

from the battlefield. He followed a Marine battalion for six weeks

from Kuwait to Baghdad. As he admits himself, his book suffers from

his rarely having been around long enough to find out what the

tremendous and by his own observation often indiscriminate firepower

did to the hapless Iraqi families within the range of the guns,

artillery, and fighter jets. But the anecdotal evidence, including

the obliteration of villages where there was no serious resistance,

along with isolated incidents where the unit had to stop and tend the

children and civilians they wounded or killed, mounts by the end of

the book to present a withering indictment of the needless brutality

of the invasion.

He writes toward the conclusion of his narrative:

In the past six weeks, I have been on hand while this comparatively

small unit of Marines has killed quite a few people. I personally saw

three civilians shot, one of them fatally with a bullet in the eye.

These were just the tip of the iceberg. The Marines killed dozens, if

not hundreds, in combat through direct fire and through repeated, at

times almost indiscriminate, artillery strikes. And no one will

probably ever know how many died from the approximately 30,000 pounds

of bombs First Recon ordered dropped from aircraft.

The reason wars should always be covered from the perspective of the

common soldier or Marine, as does, is that these foot soldiers

are largely pawns. Their lives, despite the protestations of the

generals and politicians, mean little to the war planners. Officers

who put the safety of their men before the efficiency of the war

machine are usually viewed as compromised. , by writing about

one conscientious officer, Lieutenant iel Fick, who at times

defies orders that he believes will get his men killed needlessly,

shows us the raw meat grinder at the core of the military, how it

pushes aside all those who do not offer up the soldiers under their

command to the god of war.

Physical courage is common on a battlefield. Moral courage is not.

Those who defy the machine usually become its victim. And Lieutenant

Fick, who we find in the epilogue has left the Marines to go back to

school, wonders if he was a good officer or if his concern for his

men colored his judgment. Those who make war betray those who fight

it. This is something most enlisted combat veterans soon understand.

They have little love for officers, tolerating the good ones and

hoping the bad ones are replaced or injured before they get them

killed. Those on the bottom rung of the military pay the price for

their commanders' vanity, ego, and thirst for recognition. These

motives are hardly exclusive to the neocons and the ambitious

generals in the Bush administration. They are a staple of war. Homer

wrote about all of them in The Iliad as did Norman Mailer in The

Naked and the Dead. Stupidity and callousness cause senseless death

and wanton destruction. That being a good human being‹that possessing

not only physical courage but moral courage‹is detrimental in a

commander says much about the industrial slaughter that is war.

Combat has an undeniable attraction. It is seductive and exciting,

and it is ultimately addictive. The young soldiers, trained well

enough to be disciplined but encouraged to maintain their naive

adolescent belief in invulnerability, have in wartime more power at

their fingertips than they will ever have again. From being

minimum-wage employees at places like Burger King, looking forward to

a life of dead-end jobs, they catapult to being part of, in the words

of the Marines, " the greatest fighting force on the face of the

earth. " The disparity between what they were and what they have

become is breathtaking, intoxicating. Their intoxication is only

heightened in wartime when all taboos are broken. Murder goes

unpunished and is often rewarded. The thrill of destruction fills

their days with wild adrenaline highs, strange grotesque landscapes

that are almost hallucinogenic, and a sense of purpose and belonging

that overpowers the feeling of alienation many left behind. They

become accustomed to killing, carrying out acts of slaughter with no

more forethought than they take to relieve themselves.

describes the end of a day of battle:

By five o'clock in the afternoon, the Iraqis who had earlier put up

determined-though-inept resistance have either fled or been

slaughtered. Colbert's team, along with the rest of the platoon,

speeds up the road toward the outskirts of Baqubah. Headless

corpses‹indicating well-aimed shots from high-caliber weapons ‹are

sprawled out in trenches by the road. Others are charred beyond

recognition, still sitting at the wheels of burned, skeletized

trucks. Some of the smoking wreckage emits the odor of barbecuing

chicken‹the smell of slow-roasting human corpses inside. An LAV

rolling a few meters in front of us stops by a shot-up Toyota pickup

truck. A man inside appears to be moving. A Marine jumps out of the

LAV, walks over to the pickup truck, sticks his rifle through the

passenger window and sprays the inside of the vehicle with

machine-gun fire.

Those who carry out this killing will pay a terrible price. As the

unit approaches Baghdad they become weary with the indiscriminate

shooting of unarmed Iraqis, including families that drive too close

to roadblocks. notes that " ...the enlisted Marines, tired of

shooting unarmed civilians, fought to be allowed to use smoke

grenades. " Many of these young men will never sleep well for the rest

of their lives. Most will harbor within themselves corrosive feelings

of self-loathing and regret. They will struggle with an unbridgeable

alienation when they return home, something sees glimpses of in

the final pages of the book.

These Marines have learned the awful truth about our civil religion.

They have learned that our nation is not righteous. They have

understood that there are no transcendent goals at the heart of our

political process. The Sunday School God that blesses our nation

above all others vanishes in war zones like Iraq. These young troops

disdain the teachers, religious authorities, and government officials

who feed them these lies. This is why so many combat veterans hate

military shrinks and chaplains, whose task is largely to patch them

up with the old clichés and ship them back to the battlefield. It is

why they feel distance and anger with those at home who drink in the

dark elixir of blind patriotism, and absorb mythology about

themselves and war.

One of the Marines in the book returns to California and is invited

to be the guest of honor in a gated community in Malibu, a place

where he could never afford to live. The residents want to toast him

as a war hero.

" I'm not a hero, " he tells the guests. " Guys like me are just a

necessary part of things. To maintain this way of life in a fine

community like this, you need psychos like us to go out and drop a

bomb on somebody's house. "

But these veterans will also miss war. They will miss it because at

the height of the killing they can ignore the consequences. They will

miss having comrades, whom they mistake for friends, comrades who at

the time seem closer to them than their families. They will miss the

brief, unfettered moment when they were killer gods and everyone

around them fighting a common enemy, and facing death as a group,

seemed fused into one body. " They like this part of war, "

correctly writes of the comradeship, " being a small band out here

alone in enemy territory, everyone focused on the common purpose of

staying alive and killing, if necessary. "

The end of war is cruel, for these comrades again become strangers.

Those who return are forced to face their demons. They must fall back

onto the difficult terrain of life on their own. Wartime comradeship

is about the suppression of self-awareness, self-possession, and

self-understanding. This is part of its allure, the reason people

miss it and seek years later, often with the aid of alcohol, to

recreate it. But outside of war the camaraderie does not return.

These young men and women are sent home to a nation they see in a new

light. They struggle with the awful memories and trauma and are

shunted aside unless they are willing to read from the patriotic

script handed to them by the mythmakers. Some do this, but most

cannot.

, because he reports from the perspective of the enlisted

Marines, sees the bizarre subculture of the military. He watches the

chaos of war, the way it never turns out as planned and how it opens

up a Pandora's box that gives war a life and power beyond anyone's

control. He notes the incompetence and callousness of many senior

officers who send their men into minefields at night or up against

superior forces to burnish their own reputations as warriors. He

understands the way killing in war, which always includes murder,

slowly eats away at soldiers and Marines.

Given the severe limitations of seeing war through the eyes of the

killers, his book is nevertheless sensitive, thoughtful, nuanced, and

he is able, because of his honesty, to capture the sickness and

perversion of the battlefield. Generation Kill reminds me of Jarhead

by Swofford, although Swofford was able to add a crucial

layer of distance, allowing us to see how the enterprise of killing

had over time maimed him and those he served with in the 1991 Gulf

War. But as war memoirs go this one is first-rate, as long as we

remember that it is a portrait of warriors, not "

[excerpt] On War

By Hedges <> The New York Review of Book

regards,

[Guest guest]

omagramps410 wrote:

Dear Toni,

>Dearest Alice,

>As soon as I got ready for my nap, I realized what I had written...the old me.

I have since tried to apologize for exactly what you saw.

>

>

>

You never have need or cause to apologize to me.

Best,

Dan

[Guest guest]

Dear dan,

That's what I love about posting to you. Thanks

Toni

Re: Re: states' rights+ Buddha

omagramps410 wrote:

Dear Toni,

>Dearest Alice,

>As soon as I got ready for my nap, I realized what I had written...the old

me. I have since tried to apologize for exactly what you saw.

>

>

>

You never have need or cause to apologize to me.

Best,

Dan

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/18/2004 12:37:31 PM Central Standard Time,

museredux@... writes:

>Feeling is a type of thinking. Feelings aren't things to be judged;

feelings are clues >to what's in the shadows. Opening to those things is part

of

healing, and healing is >about building things together.

Wow, Deborah! Thank you for this. It's one of those things that simply

ping and suddenly I feel like I've just discovered a long-forgotten truth that

I've been unable to vocalize.

Namasté

Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§

Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart. Who looks

outside, dreams. Who looks inside awakens. -- Carl Gustav Jung

````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

" There are some people who live in a dream world, and there

are some who face reality; and then there are those who turn

one into the other. " -- Everett

`````````````````````````````````````````````````````

" What we think or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The

only thing of consequence is what we do. " -- Ruskin

`````````````````````````````````````````````````````

Vision without action is a daydream.

Action without vision is a nightmare.

````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

The pessimist complains about the wind;

the optimist expects it to change;

the realist adjusts the sails.

Arthur Ward (1921-1994)

`````````````````````````````````````````````````````

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg,

Good to see you. I should add one this in trying to say what I mean, imho--

(about the ~1000,000 deaths) Where is our rage? It ISN'T. Because we -- and here

I'm speaking as a culture -- have no critical thinking skills. *That's what

happens when teachers are forced to focus their teaching on fill-in-the-blank,

machine-graded test results rather than real humans.* We don't read books; we

read ten page stories in school and answer ten questions culled from those

paragraphs. We have to be told what to think. And since the media blowhards

didn't voice rage, none was had.

***

When my oldest was in first grade, she came home with a test that had the

following question:

True or False? A puppy is a small dog.

She said False. She got it wrong. She told me, enraged about it all, that a

puppy was a baby dog; that lots of small adult dogs are smaller than the puppies

of big adult dogs. But her real-world thinking didn't matter. She was being

graded to think like a first grader.

It seems, like religion, much has been halted at this initiate " santa claus "

level. And even at the higher levels, if it's all about rationalism, we're just

bound to get it wrong, simply because we think we get it. The purely rational is

by nature a limitation in a real world that is paradox at its core. As Jung

wrote about Freud:

He has a passion for explaining everything rationally, exactly as in the

eighteenth century; one of his favorite maxims is Voltaire's " Ecrasez l'infame. "

With a certain satisfaction he invariably points out the flaw in the crystal;

all complex psychic phenom­ena like art, philosophy, and religion fall under his

suspicion and appear as " nothing but " repressions of the sexual instinct.

Sigmund Freud in his Historical Setting CGJUNG CW 15

No wonder our " morality " is so sex obsessed. So black and white, all sorted into

neat bins, Puritanical, blaming the poor and the heathen and the other for their

woes. ~100,000 dead Iraqi civilians? Well worth the price, we hear, because

we're giving them Democracy.

(Why do they hate us, our glorious freedoms?) The crowd nods, waves flag, moves

on, stopping for gas, heading off to have a nice dinner at a franchise

restaurant.

Jefferson said there are two types of people, Whigs and Tories. I'd amend that.

I'd say it's more a division between people who want to keep their desks neat

and clear, and people who create, delve, fearing not life's 'messes.'

Watching Moyers / NOW last night, (and it's here if your station didn't carry it

: http://www.pbs.org/now/thisweek/index.html ) he addressed this issue of

media, the way news has changed from well intended ~fact-seeking to pure spin;

from engagement to entertainment; from balance to hate radio and TV: the

industry of blowhards. One of the latter's architects was interviewed, and he --

big smile; always amused, they are -- answered Moyer's questions on the issue of

" spin " parading as news by saying that the market has spoken; the market is just

giving people what they want. Thus Rush, Hannity, Clearchannel, Sinclair and

their industry of distortion, as if there isn't full scale marketing and the

bankrolling of ideas coming down on us like a Hummer.

http://www.freewayblogger.com/images/hummer1.jpg

Moyers prefaced the show by reminding us of Hitler's Goebbels: 'If you tell a

big enough Lie, and keep on repeating it, in the end people will come to believe

it.'

***

Anyway, we've all lived through this again, and now we have to find away out of

it. Onward and upward.

Please -- can you do a favor and send that last piece you sent again? I can't

find it and I don't want to cut and paste from yahoo because it has all that

junk in the formatting. It was one of the best things I'd ever read on groking

Jung, making me think of the letters we've often discussed.

We are sorely in need of a Truth or a self-understanding similar to that of

Ancient Egypt, which I have found still living with the Taos Pueblos. Their

chief of ceremonies old Ochwiay Biano (Mountain Lake) said to me : 'We are the

people who live on the roof of the world, we are the sons of the Sun, who is our

father. We help him daily to rise and to cross the sky. We do not do this for

ourselves, but for the Americas also. Therefore they should not interfere with

our religion. But if they continue to do so (by missionaries) and hinder us,

then they will see in ten years the sun will rise no more.' He correctly assumes

that their day, their light, their consciousness and their meaning will die,

when destroyed through the narrow-mindedness of American Rationalism, and the

same will happen to the whole world, when subjected to such treatment. That is

the reason I tried to find the best truth and the clearest light I could attain

to, and since I have reached my highest point and can't transcend any more, I am

guarding my light and my treasure, convinced that nobody would gain and I myself

would be badly, even hopelessly injured, if I should lose it. It is the most

precious not only to me, but above all to the darkness of the creator, who needs

man to illuminate his creation. If God had foreseen his world, it would be a

mere senseless machine and Man's existence a useless freak. My intellect can

envisage the latter possibility, but the whole of my being says 'No' to it...

love,

deborah

[Guest guest]

museredux wrote:

Dear Deborah,

>Hi Greg,

>

>Good to see you. I should add one this in trying to say what I mean, imho--

>

>(about the ~1000,000 deaths) Where is our rage? It ISN'T. Because we -- and

here I'm speaking as a culture -- have no critical thinking skills.

>

You know me a little. Do you think that I lakc critical thinking skills?

(I really want to know).

> *That's what happens when teachers are forced to focus their teaching on

fill-in-the-blank, machine-graded test results rather than real humans.* We

don't read books; we read ten page stories in school and answer ten questions

culled from those paragraphs. We have to be told what to think. And since the

media blowhards didn't voice rage, none was had.

>

>***

>When my oldest was in first grade, she came home with a test that had the

following question:

>

>True or False? A puppy is a small dog.

>

>She said False. She got it wrong. She told me, enraged about it all, that a

puppy was a baby dog; that lots of small adult dogs are smaller than the puppies

of big adult dogs. But her real-world thinking didn't matter. She was being

graded to think like a first grader.

>

>It seems, like religion, much has been halted at this initiate " santa claus "

level. And even at the higher levels, if it's all about rationalism, we're just

bound to get it wrong, simply because we think we get it. The purely rational is

by nature a limitation in a real world that is paradox at its core. As Jung

wrote about Freud:

>

>He has a passion for explaining everything rationally, exactly as in the

eighteenth century; one of his favorite maxims is Voltaire's " Ecrasez l'infame. "

With a certain satisfaction he invariably points out the flaw in the crystal;

all complex psychic phenom­ena like art, philosophy, and religion fall under his

suspicion and appear as " nothing but " repressions of the sexual instinct.

>Sigmund Freud in his Historical Setting CGJUNG CW 15

>

>No wonder our " morality " is so sex obsessed. So black and white, all sorted

into neat bins, Puritanical, blaming the poor and the heathen and the other for

their woes. ~100,000 dead Iraqi civilians? Well worth the price, we hear,

because we're giving them Democracy.

>

>

Isn't it in fact the case that we are just trying to establish a secure

(create) a decent and reliable ally in the middle east, from which to

try to exert some control over events there, as a mean of defending

Israel and the (rest of the) West?

>(Why do they hate us, our glorious freedoms?) The crowd nods, waves flag, moves

on, stopping for gas,

>

Do you have a way of managing without gas?

> heading off to have a nice dinner at a franchise restaurant.

>

>

Unless my nose deceives me, this is a sneer against, well, the sort of

people (yours truly included) who eat at franchise restaurants. I wonder

why such rhetoric is not more attractive to middle class voters :-).

>Jefferson said there are two types of people, Whigs and Tories. I'd amend that.

I'd say it's more a division between people who want to keep their desks neat

and clear,

>

My desk is a mess, yet I am a Tory.

> and people who create, delve, fearing not life's 'messes.'

>

>Watching Moyers / NOW last night, (and it's here if your station didn't carry

it : http://www.pbs.org/now/thisweek/index.html ) he addressed this issue of

media, the way news has changed from well intended ~fact-seeking to pure spin;

from engagement to entertainment; from balance to hate radio and TV: the

industry of blowhards. One of the latter's architects was interviewed, and he --

big smile; always amused, they are -- answered Moyer's questions on the issue of

" spin " parading as news by saying that the market has spoken; the market is just

giving people what they want. Thus Rush, Hannity, Clearchannel, Sinclair and

their industry of distortion, as if there isn't full scale marketing and the

bankrolling of ideas coming down on us like a Hummer.

>

>http://www.freewayblogger.com/images/hummer1.jpg

>

>Moyers prefaced the show by reminding us of Hitler's Goebbels: 'If you tell a

big enough Lie, and keep on repeating it, in the end people will come to believe

it.'

>

>***

>

>Anyway, we've all lived through this again, and now we have to find away out of

it. Onward and upward.

>

>

>Please -- can you do a favor and send that last piece you sent again? I can't

find it and I don't want to cut and paste from yahoo because it has all that

junk in the formatting. It was one of the best things I'd ever read on groking

Jung, making me think of the letters we've often discussed.

>

>

>We are sorely in need of a Truth or a self-understanding similar to that of

Ancient Egypt,

>

I will ask you what RGH recently asked me - is ancient Egypt your idea

of a good or just regime?

Regards,

Dan Watkins

> which I have found still living with the Taos Pueblos. Their chief of

ceremonies old Ochwiay Biano (Mountain Lake) said to me : 'We are the people who

live on the roof of the world, we are the sons of the Sun, who is our father. We

help him daily to rise and to cross the sky. We do not do this for ourselves,

but for the Americas also. Therefore they should not interfere with our

religion. But if they continue to do so (by missionaries) and hinder us, then

they will see in ten years the sun will rise no more.' He correctly assumes that

their day, their light, their consciousness and their meaning will die, when

destroyed through the narrow-mindedness of American Rationalism, and the same

will happen to the whole world, when subjected to such treatment. That is the

reason I tried to find the best truth and the clearest light I could attain to,

and since I have reached my highest point and can't transcend any more, I am

guarding my light and my treasure, convinced that nobody would gain and I myself

would be badly, even hopelessly injured, if I should lose it. It is the most

precious not only to me, but above all to the darkness of the creator, who needs

man to illuminate his creation. If God had foreseen his world, it would be a

mere senseless machine and Man's existence a useless freak. My intellect can

envisage the latter possibility, but the whole of my being says 'No' to it...

>

>love,

>deborah

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dan askes:

>>You know me a little. Do you think that I lakc critical thinking skills?

(I really want to know).>>

No I don't know you, not even a little. Since you asked, I think you've been

more of a concept to me -- just as I've been all along to you. Of course I

understand it's projection on my part, but I've always intuited you as one who

pulls out the bottom block on a person's carefully constructed heartfelt sharing

of things that are truly ineffable; that it pleases you most to see it all fall

on the floor.

I do think of you when I read that quote from Jung about Freud. Since I doubt

you got that far in reading my post, I'll repeat it.

He has a passion for explaining everything rationally, exactly as in the

eighteenth century; one of his favorite maxims is Voltaire's " Ecrasez l'infame. "

With a certain satisfaction he invariably points out the flaw in the crystal;

all complex psychic phenom­ena like art, philosophy, and religion fall under his

suspicion and appear as " nothing but " repressions of the sexual instinct.

Sigmund Freud in his Historical Setting CGJUNG CW 15

I feel you came to savage a list that had been built over years as a syncretic

circle of seeking hearts with a well stated vision. It was a generous vision,

and we tried our best to protect it.

I am guarding my light and my treasure, convinced that nobody would gain and I

myself would be badly, even hopelessly injured, if I should lose it. It is the

most precious not only to me, but above all to the darkness of the creator, who

needs man to illuminate his creation.

None of this is personal. I know that and so do you. Lists have different

purposes. If I wanted Jungian analysis, I go seeking said group. I'm not a

Jungian, but I do have a sympathy and an affection built on gratitude for his

complex psychology.

Feeling is a type of thinking. Feelings aren't things to be judged; feelings are

clues to what's in the shadows. Opening to those things is part of healing, and

healing is about building things together.

x's

deborah

[Guest guest]

Septimus, what is carnal embrace?