Guest guest Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 In a message dated 11/8/04 11:38:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, dwatkins5@... writes: How can there be a compromise about baby-killing? No, it's better for mothers to go 9 mos n bring up n love n care for their children n then send them off to wars, shot dead or wounded for life in a split second! There's no logic to this - ask any mother in the world! Even a cynic wld agree that this is not an efficient use of time! The Pope cld condone birth control by using the " " Whom God hath joined together.let no man put asunder " .......but if it hasn't been joined, no prob! I honestly think that American women want to keep the GOVERNMENT out of their bodies. I myself am FOR life n have saved at least 8 kids fr being aborted thru counseling. I also remember a young RC mother of 5, a neighbor down the street, who hanged herself on finding she was preg ag n another mother 2 blocks away, had 9, n killed herself for financial reasons n an alchoholic husb. I think it is an agonizing individual prob n there is value in looking at it from more than one pov. Prayerfully pro choice .......... sigh! Mother of 4, g'moth of 10, gt-gr of 2! love ao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Dear Alice, I love it when you get passionate, and even moralistic :-). You wrote: >In a message dated 11/8/04 11:38:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, >dwatkins5@... writes: >How can there be a compromise about >baby-killing? > > My challenge to was to consider the pov of the pro-lifers (they include my parents - Ohio voters) when thinking about the possibility of compromise. On some issues - slavery was one - there can be no compromsie, only victory or defeat. That said.... >No, it's better for mothers to go 9 mos n bring up n love n care for their >children n then send them off to wars, shot dead or wounded for life in a split >second! There's no logic to this - ask any mother in the world! Even a cynic >wld agree that this is not an efficient use of time! > > you are comparing apples and oranges. War is a permanent part of the human condition. There are times when it cannot be avoided. One can argue whether or not this is one of those times, but in any event, war cannot be made obsolete. To produce a child is necessarily to produce a hostage to fortune. War takes place between nations, in the state of nature (where nations live). That is, it takes place in the realm of necessity, which trumps all other " values, " including that of justice. In times of shortage, the tribe will always raid. This unfortunate, ugly, but real and permanent state of affairs need not be compared with the relations that hold between people, by law, *within* the tribe, city or state, however. Just because war is inevitable doesn't mean that we need sanction the taking of innocent life within our own city walls. The two are not comparable. I don't think I know any cynics, so I don't know what they might think. >The Pope cld condone birth control by using the " " Whom God hath joined >together.let no man put asunder " .......but if it hasn't been joined, no prob! > > I don't know what birth control - condoms and what-not - has to do with it. >I honestly think that American women want to keep the GOVERNMENT out of their >bodies. > If you mean that they want to do as they please, you may well be right. I want to do as I please. Do you think I should be allowed? Heck, even *I* don't think so :-). > I myself am FOR life n have saved at least 8 kids fr being aborted >thru counseling. > You acknowledge, then, that they are " kids. " I congratulate you for saving them, but the question remains - should the taking of the lives of innocent " kids " be permitted by law? (The fact that it may happen anyway is not to the point, btw - the fact that there are bank robberies does not lead us to throw up our hands and say, Oh well, we can't stop bank robbery, no point having laws against it). It is at this point that Mr. Kerry, imo, got himself into trouble on this issue. He said that, in his personal opinion, human life began at conception, but that he did not, nevertheless, think that the life of the fetus should be reflected by law. How's that again? You think that a fetus is a human being, but you don't think its life should be protected under the law? In trying to have it both ways, he had it no way. > I also remember a young RC mother of 5, a neighbor down the >street, who hanged herself on finding she was preg ag n another mother 2 blocks >away, had 9, n killed herself for financial reasons n an alchoholic husb. > > If she hanged herself because she couldn't cope with her two year old, would you accept that as a reason for dispatching the two-year old? Of course not. I think that all of the arguments of this type miss the point. Per RC Church, suicide is a mortal sin. >I think it is an agonizing individual prob n there is value in looking at it >from more than one pov. > >Prayerfully pro choice .......... > >sigh! > >Mother of 4, g'moth of 10, gt-gr of 2! > > I congratulate you, but again, this is not to the point. Best regards, Dan >love > >ao > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Dear Alice, dear Dan, I can agree on the terrible choices which need to be made and their after-effects because I prayed with women who had had abortions years before and were consumed with guilt. They simply could not believe G-d could forgive them. There is no compromise, and there mustn't be. Every human being has a heart and a soul. they must make their own decisions and not have one legislated to them. Where, oh where , dear Dan is your outrage at the millions of babies all over the world who die from starvation or lack of medical help in their first year. Put your money where your mouth is, all of you pro-lifers. lets get serious and I will join you. No more executions, no more wars, no more guns laying around , and an actual reverence for human life. 'No I don't want to argue about abortion. I don't want to argue about the idiots who decided birth control was evil either. I just believe with all my heart that we have no right to judge what a woman does until we eliminate all forms of killing from this world. Until then, we need to be humble enough to admit we are an imperfect race, and that we actually do not know what the G-d each one believes in would have us do. Each case is an individual decision. there are already enough babies without parents to care for them, or abusive parents perhaps or very poor ones in other countries too.Or the children so handicapped they cannot live. Dan, no man has a right to make these decisions alone. I am not sure most men even have a clue what is involved. This question is left over from the days women were baby machines and had no rights of any kind except to give an heir to the man of the house. That idea of " rights " still is with most men. It feeds pride in societies that value boys and inheritances. Who are we as individuals to decide on matters of life and death anyway.? And how can we be so proud as to think we know the answer.WE know our own answers only and we must not judge others. No, No No I will not argue about this.There is enough bad feeling in this country about this subject as it is. I have 2 adopted children whom I adore and we would not have had them if their mother's had aborted them. But I still will not decide for anyone else what they must do with this huge, terrible problem when it appears. My own 2 natural born kids were miracles...and to me they still are. But they came after I was told I couldn't have any, and saw my desire to be a mother almost denied. But I had the father I loved for them, health, the means and the desire. Every woman isn't so blessed. We should pity instead of condemn. We have no idea of their pain.Where is our compassion? and if we are believers, how can we think these fetuses are dead forever. Don't our religions believe in the possibility of another life beyond this one? No one is ever really lost. love, Toni Didn't know you had great grandchildren...I guess I will have to wait.I can match the 4 kids and 10 grand kids though ,as you know. Thanks be to G-d again. Re: pov! In a message dated 11/8/04 11:38:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, dwatkins5@... writes: How can there be a compromise about baby-killing? No, it's better for mothers to go 9 mos n bring up n love n care for their children n then send them off to wars, shot dead or wounded for life in a split second! There's no logic to this - ask any mother in the world! Even a cynic wld agree that this is not an efficient use of time! The Pope cld condone birth control by using the " " Whom God hath joined together.let no man put asunder " .......but if it hasn't been joined, no prob! I honestly think that American women want to keep the GOVERNMENT out of their bodies. I myself am FOR life n have saved at least 8 kids fr being aborted thru counseling. I also remember a young RC mother of 5, a neighbor down the street, who hanged herself on finding she was preg ag n another mother 2 blocks away, had 9, n killed herself for financial reasons n an alchoholic husb. I think it is an agonizing individual prob n there is value in looking at it from more than one pov. Prayerfully pro choice .......... sigh! Mother of 4, g'moth of 10, gt-gr of 2! love ao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Dan, Just listen to the mothers. Those aren't apples and oranges those are their children, some conceived by rape, others by married rape, others by incest and others still deadly ill. Then there are the children having children, the children born and left on garbage cans, those shut in a closet or foster home where more damage is done. NO, not apples and oranges but living breathing babies who will live if not in this life, certainly in the next. But must they suffer because men want a long line of descendents, or because the Church has to make itself essential? The point is, Dan that you have a right to your opinion, but no right to decide what others may or may not do. If you want to vent moral outrage, there are plenty of things to be outraged about. But you, my friend may not decide on how an individual may live or die...and as long as we allow people to be killed, you have no moral ground. You and all those celibate priests who are so pious abut what others must do or not do, those of all of us who allow people to sleep in the street, millions to starve all over the world, the warehousing of millions of orphans in other countries, and our failed system of foster care. don't you all remember " the Judge not lest you be judged? " War is a permanent part of the human condition you say, well so is starvation, abuse, cruelty, ill health and the lack of enough to bring a child up on. We do not need to encourage " throw away children... what kind of life is that? Men are so proud of their ability to make copies of themselves to perpetuate themselves. Great. Let them find a good job, a willing woman and sign up for 18 years of good care. Just don't think you can dominate women or their bodies, or their wants and needs. Your rights on this subject stop at your body, not theirs. As long as greed drives our economic system and we do not care what happens to those not fortunate enough to be among the " haves " , that long you have no alternative ( don't tell me about those pregnancy programs which leave mother and newborn high and dry...I've seen it and worked with it.) As long as we as a society do not help more, none of us have a right to act self righteous about the choices women have to make. Now I have got it out of my system. I did not want to say all this but got wound up. It is a subject I think about often...the self righteousness of all of us. You are entitled to your opinion but unless you are pregnant you have no right to exercise it. Just once I would like people who shoot abortion doctors or terrorize women to feel childbirth.Not watch someone else, but bear the child yourself... Boy would they shut up soon!!!! Then how about being in a slum apartment with not enough food and a crying baby who also needs a doctor, and all there are are rats to play with. I can play you other scenarios but you do get the picture, don't you? Practice the outrage here in the street where you help those that need help,, not at the abortion clinic or in the voting booth. The opinion of people not intimately concerned with this problem are beside the point. Help, lead to better conditions, or get out of the way. Gotta go to bed. Ray comes home tomorrow! Like Alice, color me a sad , and hurting pro-choice. Toni For all you men who think you have anything to offer, vote for social help for poor mothers, ill babies and mothers ,and better conditions for the world's starving children. Then I will pay attention to your opinions.Not before you take some responsibility for all those who have these terrible choices to make.And the conditions we are all responsible for having created. Re: pov! Dear Alice, I love it when you get passionate, and even moralistic :-). You wrote: >In a message dated 11/8/04 11:38:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, >dwatkins5@... writes: >How can there be a compromise about >baby-killing? > > My challenge to was to consider the pov of the pro-lifers (they include my parents - Ohio voters) when thinking about the possibility of compromise. On some issues - slavery was one - there can be no compromsie, only victory or defeat. That said.... >No, it's better for mothers to go 9 mos n bring up n love n care for their >children n then send them off to wars, shot dead or wounded for life in a split >second! There's no logic to this - ask any mother in the world! Even a cynic >wld agree that this is not an efficient use of time! > > you are comparing apples and oranges. War is a permanent part of the human condition. There are times when it cannot be avoided. One can argue whether or not this is one of those times, but in any event, war cannot be made obsolete. To produce a child is necessarily to produce a hostage to fortune. War takes place between nations, in the state of nature (where nations live). That is, it takes place in the realm of necessity, which trumps all other " values, " including that of justice. In times of shortage, the tribe will always raid. This unfortunate, ugly, but real and permanent state of affairs need not be compared with the relations that hold between people, by law, *within* the tribe, city or state, however. Just because war is inevitable doesn't mean that we need sanction the taking of innocent life within our own city walls. The two are not comparable. I don't think I know any cynics, so I don't know what they might think. >The Pope cld condone birth control by using the " " Whom God hath joined >together.let no man put asunder " .......but if it hasn't been joined, no prob! > > I don't know what birth control - condoms and what-not - has to do with it. >I honestly think that American women want to keep the GOVERNMENT out of their >bodies. > If you mean that they want to do as they please, you may well be right. I want to do as I please. Do you think I should be allowed? Heck, even *I* don't think so :-). > I myself am FOR life n have saved at least 8 kids fr being aborted >thru counseling. > You acknowledge, then, that they are " kids. " I congratulate you for saving them, but the question remains - should the taking of the lives of innocent " kids " be permitted by law? (The fact that it may happen anyway is not to the point, btw - the fact that there are bank robberies does not lead us to throw up our hands and say, Oh well, we can't stop bank robbery, no point having laws against it). It is at this point that Mr. Kerry, imo, got himself into trouble on this issue. He said that, in his personal opinion, human life began at conception, but that he did not, nevertheless, think that the life of the fetus should be reflected by law. How's that again? You think that a fetus is a human being, but you don't think its life should be protected under the law? In trying to have it both ways, he had it no way. > I also remember a young RC mother of 5, a neighbor down the >street, who hanged herself on finding she was preg ag n another mother 2 blocks >away, had 9, n killed herself for financial reasons n an alchoholic husb. > > If she hanged herself because she couldn't cope with her two year old, would you accept that as a reason for dispatching the two-year old? Of course not. I think that all of the arguments of this type miss the point. Per RC Church, suicide is a mortal sin. >I think it is an agonizing individual prob n there is value in looking at it >from more than one pov. > >Prayerfully pro choice .......... > >sigh! > >Mother of 4, g'moth of 10, gt-gr of 2! > > I congratulate you, but again, this is not to the point. Best regards, Dan >love > >ao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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