Re: Re: Bizarre occurrence

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

With most things human error is the one of the commonest

factors. You may have made a mistake. You say you use a tracking system but

don't seem to have used it to verify whether or not you have made an error.

Please note if your tracking system can't tell you for sure whether something

has gone into the right bottle then we possibly need to chat.

Having looked into such issues extensively you should be able to eliminate this

not speculate about it or wonder what you might have done.

After all it could have been something deadly ...

First you need to prove that your procedures correctly dispensed.

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> nice idea, Guy.

>

> There definitely was no wormwood in mix.

> She tasted it 'bitter' sent it back and I identified wormwood by taste.

>

> I've been seeing her for a while - she's actually the hyperthyroid patient I

mentioned a few months ago - and her mix has hardly changed since day 1, so she

is very familiar with the taste. She has never had wormwood. The only thing that

has changed is that at first I gave her Passiflora but for a while she has had

Scutellaria.

>

> mix contains Lycopus, Leonurus, , Crataegus and Scutellaria.

> I can't even say I took Art abs off the shelf beside the right herb by mistake

as there is no alphabetical mix up possible - and in any case, as I said it all

went into jug first. She has watched me make up her medicine often enough to

know the two bottles are identical - or at least they used to be identical

before I passed them over to royal mail.

>

> 's idea of contaminated bottle is plausible - but a virgin bottle?

> I'm just waiting for my last patient so I took all my plastic bottles, had a

good sniff and then put a little water in each and tasted - nothing. Clearly I

need a life.

>

> I can't even say I've upset the wormwood fairy so she or he is seeking

vengeance, because I really like wormwood and although I don't give it to

patients all that often I am one of those weird people who likes the taste of

wormwood.

>

> If you or anyone else can do some chemical or alchemical equation from the

ingredients above and create wormwood taste - selectively mind as it was only in

50% - please let me know.

>

> All other suggestions - bar insanity - very welcome!

>

>

>

> >

> > Nice puzzle,

> > If she thinks that the two bottles are SEPARATE then it is possible

> > to think that they taste different. Or her bitter receptors DNA

> > synthesis has been somehow downregulated due to her exposure to

> > wormwood. On the other hand, if there really was no wormwood in the

> > mix, maybe you MADE wormwood out of the other herbs - maybe the step

> > from herbalism to alchemy is not such a big one........what was in

> > her mix?

> > best wishes,

> > Guy

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

hello Lorraine, what could have been so deadly about it? lets not make this

bigger please. Marilena.

To: ukherbal-list

From: herbsandhelpers@...

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 05:25:28 +0000

Subject: Re: Re: Bizarre occurrence

Hello ,

With most things human error is the one of the commonest factors. You may have

made a mistake. You say you use a tracking system but don't seem to have used it

to verify whether or not you have made an error. Please note if your tracking

system can't tell you for sure whether something has gone into the right bottle

then we possibly need to chat.

Having looked into such issues extensively you should be able to eliminate this

not speculate about it or wonder what you might have done.

After all it could have been something deadly ...

First you need to prove that your procedures correctly dispensed.

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> nice idea, Guy.

>

> There definitely was no wormwood in mix.

> She tasted it 'bitter' sent it back and I identified wormwood by taste.

>

> I've been seeing her for a while - she's actually the hyperthyroid patient I

mentioned a few months ago - and her mix has hardly changed since day 1, so she

is very familiar with the taste. She has never had wormwood. The only thing that

has changed is that at first I gave her Passiflora but for a while she has had

Scutellaria.

>

> mix contains Lycopus, Leonurus, , Crataegus and Scutellaria.

> I can't even say I took Art abs off the shelf beside the right herb by mistake

as there is no alphabetical mix up possible - and in any case, as I said it all

went into jug first. She has watched me make up her medicine often enough to

know the two bottles are identical - or at least they used to be identical

before I passed them over to royal mail.

>

> 's idea of contaminated bottle is plausible - but a virgin bottle?

> I'm just waiting for my last patient so I took all my plastic bottles, had a

good sniff and then put a little water in each and tasted - nothing. Clearly I

need a life.

>

> I can't even say I've upset the wormwood fairy so she or he is seeking

vengeance, because I really like wormwood and although I don't give it to

patients all that often I am one of those weird people who likes the taste of

wormwood.

>

> If you or anyone else can do some chemical or alchemical equation from the

ingredients above and create wormwood taste - selectively mind as it was only in

50% - please let me know.

>

> All other suggestions - bar insanity - very welcome!

>

>

>

> >

> > Nice puzzle,

> > If she thinks that the two bottles are SEPARATE then it is possible

> > to think that they taste different. Or her bitter receptors DNA

> > synthesis has been somehow downregulated due to her exposure to

> > wormwood. On the other hand, if there really was no wormwood in the

> > mix, maybe you MADE wormwood out of the other herbs - maybe the step

> > from herbalism to alchemy is not such a big one........what was in

> > her mix?

> > best wishes,

> > Guy

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

My initial email brought in the factor of human error. The problem seems to be

that the mix contains something other than what was prescribed. This means it

could have been a Schedule 3 herb or something that the patient reacts to.

Procedures should be such so that in an incident you can demonstrate what you

have done and in thus case, if it were me demonstrate that nothing like

Belladonna was accidentally in there either.

Too be honest that would have been my first priority!

We are talking about someones health here. The patient is concerned and I would

want to demonstrate what has and has not happened. I think reassurance backed up

by hard evidence is the way to go.

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

>

> hello Lorraine, what could have been so deadly about it? lets not make this

bigger please. Marilena.

>

>

>

> To: ukherbal-list

> From: herbsandhelpers@...

> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 05:25:28 +0000

> Subject: Re: Re: Bizarre occurrence

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Hello ,

> With most things human error is the one of the commonest factors. You may have

made a mistake. You say you use a tracking system but don't seem to have used it

to verify whether or not you have made an error. Please note if your tracking

system can't tell you for sure whether something has gone into the right bottle

then we possibly need to chat.

>

> Having looked into such issues extensively you should be able to eliminate

this not speculate about it or wonder what you might have done.

>

> After all it could have been something deadly ...

>

> First you need to prove that your procedures correctly dispensed.

>

> Lorraine

>

> Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

> HERBS AND HELPERS

> 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

> Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

> Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

> Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

> www.herbalmedicineuk.com

>

>

>

>> nice idea, Guy.

>>

>> There definitely was no wormwood in mix.

>> She tasted it 'bitter' sent it back and I identified wormwood by taste.

>>

>> I've been seeing her for a while - she's actually the hyperthyroid patient I

mentioned a few months ago - and her mix has hardly changed since day 1, so she

is very familiar with the taste. She has never had wormwood. The only thing that

has changed is that at first I gave her Passiflora but for a while she has had

Scutellaria.

>>

>> mix contains Lycopus, Leonurus, , Crataegus and Scutellaria.

>> I can't even say I took Art abs off the shelf beside the right herb by

mistake as there is no alphabetical mix up possible - and in any case, as I said

it all went into jug first. She has watched me make up her medicine often enough

to know the two bottles are identical - or at least they used to be identical

before I passed them over to royal mail.

>>

>> 's idea of contaminated bottle is plausible - but a virgin bottle?

>> I'm just waiting for my last patient so I took all my plastic bottles, had a

good sniff and then put a little water in each and tasted - nothing. Clearly I

need a life.

>>

>> I can't even say I've upset the wormwood fairy so she or he is seeking

vengeance, because I really like wormwood and although I don't give it to

patients all that often I am one of those weird people who likes the taste of

wormwood.

>>

>> If you or anyone else can do some chemical or alchemical equation from the

ingredients above and create wormwood taste - selectively mind as it was only in

50% - please let me know.

>>

>> All other suggestions - bar insanity - very welcome!

>>

>>

>>

>>>

>>> Nice puzzle,

>>> If she thinks that the two bottles are SEPARATE then it is possible

>>> to think that they taste different. Or her bitter receptors DNA

>>> synthesis has been somehow downregulated due to her exposure to

>>> wormwood. On the other hand, if there really was no wormwood in the

>>> mix, maybe you MADE wormwood out of the other herbs - maybe the step

>>> from herbalism to alchemy is not such a big one........what was in

>>> her mix?

>>> best wishes,

>>> Guy

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>

>>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I once dispensed into 2 bottles from a jug and the patient said one bottle

seemed weaker than the other.

This would back up the sedimentation thought train.

Which at the time I did put it down to.

I am sure that we are all very precise and careful with our dispensing process.

After all, next to actual prescription writing it's the dispensing of the

medicine that determines what the patient will be taking!!

Of course we are human and errors can be made, this is why we have a method of

dispensing as you have described .

I am sure batch master is a useful tool, especially in busy dispensaries where

there might be multiple dispensers but I am sure the individual herbalist has a

strict enough procedure and if thought the taste of the herb was due to

dispensing error she probably would not have felt the need to post the question

on the forum.

Medical Herbalist

On 12 Jan 2011, at 02:36 PM, " irishherbalist "

wrote:

>

>

> I use a similar dispensing method to you , maybe one or more of the herbs

sedimented before dispensing into the two bottles meaning the second bottle got

alot more of a particular herb...?

> Ciara

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

From what you say, common sense says that both your bottles were the same. My

feeling is that your patient's taste perceptions and needs changed - similar

to the zinc test that's marketed, you can't taste it when you need zinc but you

can when you don't. By the time she got to the second bottle, she didn't need

that bitter taste any more - the first bottle had done it's job from that

particular point of view.

I think it's similar to patients who forget to take their medicine when

previously they never forgot - they just don't need the taste any more. Taste is

very therapeutic, particularly bitters as we all know.

Does that fit with your patient?

Helen

________________________________

To: " ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list >

Sent: Wednesday, 12 January, 2011 15:50:22

Subject: Re: Re: Bizarre occurrence

 

I once dispensed into 2 bottles from a jug and the patient said one bottle

seemed weaker than the other.

This would back up the sedimentation thought train.

Which at the time I did put it down to.

I am sure that we are all very precise and careful with our dispensing process.

After all, next to actual prescription writing it's the dispensing of the

medicine that determines what the patient will be taking!!

Of course we are human and errors can be made, this is why we have a method of

dispensing as you have described .

I am sure batch master is a useful tool, especially in busy dispensaries where

there might be multiple dispensers but I am sure the individual herbalist has a

strict enough procedure and if thought the taste of the herb was due to

dispensing error she probably would not have felt the need to post the question

on the forum.

Medical Herbalist

On 12 Jan 2011, at 02:36 PM, " irishherbalist "

wrote:

>

>

> I use a similar dispensing method to you , maybe one or more of the herbs

>sedimented before dispensing into the two bottles meaning the second bottle got

>alot more of a particular herb...?

> Ciara

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

" when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however

improbable, must be the truth. " (A Conan Doyle)

Only just catching the tale end of this story, and this may already have

been suggested, but is there a possibility that your patient may have

contaminated the mix him or herself, either unwittingly or wittingly? Or

that someone at their end who had access to it has done so? Patients have

been known to tamper with contents of a mix, either to get a refund or for

attention seeking purposes. The motive for anyone else in the patient's

immediate circle are less clear and possibly sinister. I suggest this only

because it seems that the only people to have access to the mix are you

(and you have ruled out contamination at your end by scrupulous checking)

and the patient and his or her family.

Curiouser and curiouser.......

Alix

[Guest guest]

Hi

It is possible that it is something to do with the plastic. What type of plastic

is it and what is the alcohol content of the mix?

if you can let me have as much detail as possible I can look into it. Message me

off list if you like.

Regards

Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange

Re: Bizarre occurrence

hi Alix

interesting thought but absolutely no reason for it that I can see.

attention seeking - no she's a level headed person

others tampering - no they've seen her health improve dramatically, and she was

pretty ill.

There have been developments with this though.

I have the bottle sitting on my shelf.

I also made up some of her mixture and have it in a separate bottle.

When she sent her 'bitter mix' back to me, I opened it as I said and I tasted

wormwood. Fairly unmistakable taste.

I made up some of her mix and tasted it for myself - no wormwood of course.

I've been tasting both of them for several days and at lunchtime today I

discovered that the wormwood taste has almost disappeared, still there a bit but

nothing like the distinct taste that was there before.

However, it does not taste pleasant. It tastes bitter but not in the way we

expect herbs to taste bitter.

The other one tastes as it did a few days ago.

Could it be that something has in fact 'gone off' as she originally thought?

I suppose the only way to discover that is ask a supplier if they can check it

for me.

The individual herbs taste fine.

The difference between these two bottles now on my shelf is that one is in glass

and the other in plastic. Maybe something in the plastic is leaching out?

, is that plausible? But why would it taste of wormwood and then change a

few days later?

Curious indeed.

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

You have made several assumptions which are incorrect:

I do my own dispensing

I do keep my Schedule 3 herbs in a separate cupboard which can be locked but

usually left open as only I have access to the dispensary.

As I read it for some reason a client complained due to discrepancies in a

prescription they received which you seemed puzzeled about.

In a case that is marked 'bizarre' then I assume you were clueless as to how

this came about.

I was pointing out that it shouldn't be possible for thus situation to arise

there is cause and effect. If you had adequate systems in place then you would

instantly be able to demonstrate via evidence what has and has not happened to

be able to satisfy anyone who needs to know.

I personally find it 'bizarre' that you can nit do so.

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> Dear Lorraine

>

> Schedule 3 herbs cannot accidentally get into a prescription - they have to be

taken from their locked place and dispensed appropriately.

>

> I don't use a dispenser as you do, so I know exactly when I use them.

>

> I am gravely concerned that you are not ensuring safe and legal dispensing of

the S3 herbs in your dispensary.

>

> best wishes

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Regardless of everything if it hits the fan then ultimately it is our

responsibility to be able to demonstrate what has happened and produce evidence

to back it up.

If people have systems but don't bother testing them then such situations are

bound to arise.

I was pointing out that an adequate system would have been able to establish was

has and hasn't happened.

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

On 12 Jan 2011, at 15:50, Medical Herbalist

wrote:

>

>

> I once dispensed into 2 bottles from a jug and the patient said one bottle

seemed weaker than the other.

> This would back up the sedimentation thought train.

> Which at the time I did put it down to.

> I am sure that we are all very precise and careful with our dispensing

process. After all, next to actual prescription writing it's the dispensing of

the medicine that determines what the patient will be taking!!

> Of course we are human and errors can be made, this is why we have a method of

dispensing as you have described .

> I am sure batch master is a useful tool, especially in busy dispensaries where

there might be multiple dispensers but I am sure the individual herbalist has a

strict enough procedure and if thought the taste of the herb was due to

dispensing error she probably would not have felt the need to post the question

on the forum.

>

> Medical Herbalist

>

> On 12 Jan 2011, at 02:36 PM, " irishherbalist "

wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > I use a similar dispensing method to you , maybe one or more of the

herbs sedimented before dispensing into the two bottles meaning the second

bottle got alot more of a particular herb...?

> > Ciara

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

The fact that you are taking this personally suggests to me that you feel under

threat from the situation.

It seems no one else who made replies was there either. With an potential

dispensing problem it comes down what you have in place, you would need to be

able to clearly demonstrate due diligence.

I found it 'bizarre' that what should have been a routine investigation

internally resulted in a post to a list. Surely this is not the best way to deal

with the situation.

If you don't want comments then don't post.

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> Dear Lorraine

>

> I'm so glad you think human error could be a possibility.

> Shall I point out to you that the only human error here is that you did not

read the post thoroughly?

>

> Do you honestly think that I would not have considered human error?

> I did not give my entire process for tracking my use of medicines as there is

no need to elaborate on this list. it is standard procedure for all herbalists

to have a tracking system. just because I don't use yours is no reason to

suggest that I have not been thorough in looking at the situation.

> If you had read the post thoroughly you would find that I dispensed 400 mls of

medicine and then put it in separate containers. One of them has a bitter taste

and the other has not. So find the human error in that, please.

>

> As to the situation with my patient, I am delighted to know that you seem to

understand the relationships I have with my patients better than I do. While I

would not be arrogant (or stupid) enough to think I could never be the issue of

a complaint, I would expect my patients o come to me in the first instance and

for me to take their concern seriously and deal with it. I would also expect to

report an adverse reaction on the yellow card scheme. Or perhaps you think I am

not professional enough to do that? It certainly seem to me that you are

suggesting that.

>

> best wishes

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

It seems that you are determined to make personal attacks on

me which I consider very unprofessional conduct. I responded to your post as did

others if you don't want comments then don't post.

Having adequate systems in place would be a key way to determine what has or has

not happened. Something which should be available as a routine for any of us

whatever system.

If this area needs to be discussed then that us what lists are for. They are not

fir making unprovoked and unprofessional attacks on others.

If this tone continues then I will consider making a complaint to the NIMH.

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> Dear Lorraine

>

> And just what makes you think I am not able to do any, or all, of this?

>

> There are several things in your message.

>

> Firstly, my post was not intended for you to launch into a sales pitch.

> I have not demonstrated the need to use your system. If you had read my

message properly you would see that.

>

> Secondly, whether I am on NIMH council or not is irrelevant. Basically you

have just taken this opportunity to attempt to influence people, and generate

yet another sales pitch. You are aggrieved because the NIMH has declined to

endorse your product. You have been given reasons for that one numerous

occasions. This list, and I will remind you that this is an open list and not an

exclusively NIMH one, is not the place to raise NIMH related matters. Please do

the others on the list the courtesy of respecting that.

>

> Finally, and this is what concerns me most here:

> Are you saying that you keep your schedule 3 herbs in the same place as non S3

herbs?

> I simply could not make the mistake of 'accidentally dispensing a schedule 3

herb' but from what you say here it suggests to me that you could.

> So how do you keep your S3 herbs? Are they on open shelves? Or do you keep

them separate?

> It is against the NIMH Code of ethics, all good practice, not to mention the

law of the land (1968 medicines Act) not to keep your S3 herbs separate and

locked away.

> I sincerely hope you are doing that.

>

> best wishes

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Alix,

For bringing this back to a sensible discussion on the

issue. Of course with any incidence the facts must be established first and

patient safety would be my first concern. Once the facts have been established

by investigation then at least there are some knowns.

Because we potentially have access to all manner of herbs then knowing what has

and hasn't occurred is essential, more importantly being able to demonstrate

that to another party is even more essential.

Such things should be routine.

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> Hi

>

> " when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however

> improbable, must be the truth. " (A Conan Doyle)

>

> Only just catching the tale end of this story, and this may already have

> been suggested, but is there a possibility that your patient may have

> contaminated the mix him or herself, either unwittingly or wittingly? Or

> that someone at their end who had access to it has done so? Patients have

> been known to tamper with contents of a mix, either to get a refund or for

> attention seeking purposes. The motive for anyone else in the patient's

> immediate circle are less clear and possibly sinister. I suggest this only

> because it seems that the only people to have access to the mix are you

> (and you have ruled out contamination at your end by scrupulous checking)

> and the patient and his or her family.

>

> Curiouser and curiouser.......

>

> Alix

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Been thinking about this after reading other replies and thinking about my own

bitter experiences over the last few days.

I usually avoid grains and simple carbs and find bitters imminently palatable

these days, however over Christmas I indulged in the usual carb excess and now

in the 2nd week of going back to my normal carb sparse diet and finding my

appetite unsatiable thought I would take a bitter mix to help kick the carb

withdrawal to the curb. Oh my, how bitter that mix was for the first few days

but now, like you daily tasting the mix you made, today the bitterness is much

better, almost sweet(in a bizarre way) as usual.

Perhaps it was a shock to her system - maybe she had eaten something sweet not

long before taking it and not before the second bottle. Or Christmas excesses

also made her more sensitive to the bitters she is usually used to.

Leonorus is very bitter and aromatic - similar to Wormwood in some ways? Can't

face the drizzle to walk up to the dispensary to sniff mine at the moment!

Constituents - alkaloids, volatile oil etc etc

Volatile oils in Leonorus

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4091/is_200609/ai_n17197137/

Art. abs. volatile oils

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4091/is_200707/ai_n19434085/

Both contain caryophyllene.

Zoe

x

[Guest guest]

Hi

REALLY long shot, but can altitude (French Alps) have an effect on how

plastic reacts with mix, or mix leaches into plastic?

Alix

_____

From: ukherbal-list [mailto:ukherbal-list ]

On Behalf Of

Sent: 13 January 2011 18:15

To: ukherbal-list

Subject: Re: Bizarre occurrence

Hi Zoe

That's a reasonable idea but I don't think explains it.

Like helen suggested about taste receptors, I don't think it fits.

the two medicines just simply taste different but have come from same

source.

The mystery medicine today has no trace of wormwood taste at all.

I read your message and have just tried (again) the herbs in the Rx

separately.

Lycopus is also bitter, but it is not the same taste. None of them has the

same taste.

I have two bottles here made from exactly the same ingredients and they

taste different. Patient has two other bottles made from same ingredients

that taste identical but different to one of the ones I have here.

After Alix's post, I called patient again to double check what had happened.

She ordered the Rx before Christmas as she was going away and did not want

to run out.

I sent her meds as previously stated (and you can rest assured I can

demonstrate due diligence till the cows come home).

She took one bottle to France with her and left the other one here. While in

France she was still taking her previous batch. However, she returned home a

few days early and the day after coming back, opened the bottle for her

final dose of the day. Noticed bitter taste. Took another dose next morning

and again noticed bitterness, so phoned me.

I checked etc, sent her replacement etc etc.

So contents of both bottles identical, sent at same time. The bottles have

sealed caps and it was only when she came back that she opened it. Seals

unbroken so no tampering and no contamination possible.

Replacement bottle tastes exactly the same as the 2nd bottle. I don't re-use

plastic bottles.

The only difference is that one bottle has been to France and back. Not

exposed to undue heat - but possibly a bit cold as she was in French Alps.

Perhaps, more along the lines of what suggested, rather than the

bottle being contaminated, the bottle itself is defective? how would I know

that? It's a PET bottle.

I don't like posting glass, but I'm also not keen on plastic and getting

less keen by the day!

PS I thought you were having torrential rain, not a drizzle? Thanks for

links

No virus found in this incoming message.

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07:34:00

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Just as an odd thought, did your px travel to France via Eurostar or

plane? If so, any chance the Xrays in security could have had an effect

on the tincture in plastic? Any chemists out there with any thoughts on

this? Hopefully I am only suggesting worst case scenario...

Hope all is well with you,

Kerry

--

Kerry Hackett, MNIMH, RH

Medical Herbalist

www.kerryhackett.ca

[Guest guest]

OK, my turn:

I suggest that her husband, tired of being abandoned, while she jetted off

to France yet again to visit her good-looking and romantic French boyfriend,

decided enough was enough!

Experiencing extreme inner torment, whilst he imagined his beautiful wife

with his froggy competitor, he was unable to stop himself from grabbing the

said bottle. In blind jealous rage, he dripped in some cyanide, hoping

against hope that the bitter almond taste would be heavily disguised amongst

the foul-tasting brew that was her herbal medicine.

Mightily disappointed was he when he watched his careful wife, on her

return, unscrew the bottle and gingerly sniff the mixture first, before

taking the tiniest of gulps. With a mixture off relief and anti-climax, he

witnessed his wife pick up the phone ³, I think there is something

wrong with my mixture² he heard her say!...............

Best wishes

Fiona Shakeela Marple

>

>

>

>

>

> Hi Zoe

>

> That's a reasonable idea but I don't think explains it.

> Like helen suggested about taste receptors, I don't think it fits.

> the two medicines just simply taste different but have come from same source.

>

> The mystery medicine today has no trace of wormwood taste at all.

> I read your message and have just tried (again) the herbs in the Rx

> separately.

> Lycopus is also bitter, but it is not the same taste. None of them has the

> same taste.

> I have two bottles here made from exactly the same ingredients and they taste

> different. Patient has two other bottles made from same ingredients that taste

> identical but different to one of the ones I have here.

>

> After Alix's post, I called patient again to double check what had happened.

> She ordered the Rx before Christmas as she was going away and did not want to

> run out.

> I sent her meds as previously stated (and you can rest assured I can

> demonstrate due diligence till the cows come home).

> She took one bottle to France with her and left the other one here. While in

> France she was still taking her previous batch. However, she returned home a

> few days early and the day after coming back, opened the bottle for her final

> dose of the day. Noticed bitter taste. Took another dose next morning and

> again noticed bitterness, so phoned me.

> I checked etc, sent her replacement etc etc.

>

> So contents of both bottles identical, sent at same time. The bottles have

> sealed caps and it was only when she came back that she opened it. Seals

> unbroken so no tampering and no contamination possible.

> Replacement bottle tastes exactly the same as the 2nd bottle. I don't re-use

> plastic bottles.

> The only difference is that one bottle has been to France and back. Not

> exposed to undue heat - but possibly a bit cold as she was in French Alps.

>

> Perhaps, more along the lines of what suggested, rather than the bottle

> being contaminated, the bottle itself is defective? how would I know that?

> It's a PET bottle.

> I don't like posting glass, but I'm also not keen on plastic and getting less

> keen by the day!

>

>

>

> PS I thought you were having torrential rain, not a drizzle? Thanks for links

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Absolutely!

Anything is possible until proven otherwise!

However even the tiniest sip of cyanide would have left said client stone dead

and too so I think that possibility can be ruled out!

I think I'd be inclined to check the paperwork and then craft the novel based on

that it could be a best seller! True story!

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> OK, my turn:

>

> I suggest that her husband, tired of being abandoned, while she jetted off

> to France yet again to visit her good-looking and romantic French boyfriend,

> decided enough was enough!

> Experiencing extreme inner torment, whilst he imagined his beautiful wife

> with his froggy competitor, he was unable to stop himself from grabbing the

> said bottle. In blind jealous rage, he dripped in some cyanide, hoping

> against hope that the bitter almond taste would be heavily disguised amongst

> the foul-tasting brew that was her herbal medicine.

>

> Mightily disappointed was he when he watched his careful wife, on her

> return, unscrew the bottle and gingerly sniff the mixture first, before

> taking the tiniest of gulps. With a mixture off relief and anti-climax, he

> witnessed his wife pick up the phone “, I think there is something

> wrong with my mixture†he heard her say!...............

>

> Best wishes

>

> Fiona Shakeela Marple

>

>

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi Zoe

> >

> > That's a reasonable idea but I don't think explains it.

> > Like helen suggested about taste receptors, I don't think it fits.

> > the two medicines just simply taste different but have come from same

source.

> >

> > The mystery medicine today has no trace of wormwood taste at all.

> > I read your message and have just tried (again) the herbs in the Rx

> > separately.

> > Lycopus is also bitter, but it is not the same taste. None of them has the

> > same taste.

> > I have two bottles here made from exactly the same ingredients and they

taste

> > different. Patient has two other bottles made from same ingredients that

taste

> > identical but different to one of the ones I have here.

> >

> > After Alix's post, I called patient again to double check what had happened.

> > She ordered the Rx before Christmas as she was going away and did not want

to

> > run out.

> > I sent her meds as previously stated (and you can rest assured I can

> > demonstrate due diligence till the cows come home).

> > She took one bottle to France with her and left the other one here. While in

> > France she was still taking her previous batch. However, she returned home a

> > few days early and the day after coming back, opened the bottle for her

final

> > dose of the day. Noticed bitter taste. Took another dose next morning and

> > again noticed bitterness, so phoned me.

> > I checked etc, sent her replacement etc etc.

> >

> > So contents of both bottles identical, sent at same time. The bottles have

> > sealed caps and it was only when she came back that she opened it. Seals

> > unbroken so no tampering and no contamination possible.

> > Replacement bottle tastes exactly the same as the 2nd bottle. I don't re-use

> > plastic bottles.

> > The only difference is that one bottle has been to France and back. Not

> > exposed to undue heat - but possibly a bit cold as she was in French Alps.

> >

> > Perhaps, more along the lines of what suggested, rather than the

bottle

> > being contaminated, the bottle itself is defective? how would I know that?

> > It's a PET bottle.

> > I don't like posting glass, but I'm also not keen on plastic and getting

less

> > keen by the day!

> >

> >

> >

> > PS I thought you were having torrential rain, not a drizzle? Thanks for

links

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Unless the client was achlorohydrate (as was Rasputin) so spill the beans ,

How long was her beard?

Re: Re: Bizarre occurrence

Absolutely!

Anything is possible until proven otherwise!

However even the tiniest sip of cyanide would have left said client stone dead

and too so I think that possibility can be ruled out!

I think I'd be inclined to check the paperwork and then craft the novel based on

that it could be a best seller! True story!

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> OK, my turn:

>

> I suggest that her husband, tired of being abandoned, while she jetted off

> to France yet again to visit her good-looking and romantic French boyfriend,

> decided enough was enough!

> Experiencing extreme inner torment, whilst he imagined his beautiful wife

> with his froggy competitor, he was unable to stop himself from grabbing the

> said bottle. In blind jealous rage, he dripped in some cyanide, hoping

> against hope that the bitter almond taste would be heavily disguised amongst

> the foul-tasting brew that was her herbal medicine.

>

> Mightily disappointed was he when he watched his careful wife, on her

> return, unscrew the bottle and gingerly sniff the mixture first, before

> taking the tiniest of gulps. With a mixture off relief and anti-climax, he

> witnessed his wife pick up the phone “, I think there is something

> wrong with my mixture†he heard her say!...............

>

> Best wishes

>

> Fiona Shakeela Marple

>

>

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi Zoe

> >

> > That's a reasonable idea but I don't think explains it.

> > Like helen suggested about taste receptors, I don't think it fits.

> > the two medicines just simply taste different but have come from same

source.

> >

> > The mystery medicine today has no trace of wormwood taste at all.

> > I read your message and have just tried (again) the herbs in the Rx

> > separately.

> > Lycopus is also bitter, but it is not the same taste. None of them has the

> > same taste.

> > I have two bottles here made from exactly the same ingredients and they

taste

> > different. Patient has two other bottles made from same ingredients that

taste

> > identical but different to one of the ones I have here.

> >

> > After Alix's post, I called patient again to double check what had happened.

> > She ordered the Rx before Christmas as she was going away and did not want

to

> > run out.

> > I sent her meds as previously stated (and you can rest assured I can

> > demonstrate due diligence till the cows come home).

> > She took one bottle to France with her and left the other one here. While in

> > France she was still taking her previous batch. However, she returned home a

> > few days early and the day after coming back, opened the bottle for her

final

> > dose of the day. Noticed bitter taste. Took another dose next morning and

> > again noticed bitterness, so phoned me.

> > I checked etc, sent her replacement etc etc.

> >

> > So contents of both bottles identical, sent at same time. The bottles have

> > sealed caps and it was only when she came back that she opened it. Seals

> > unbroken so no tampering and no contamination possible.

> > Replacement bottle tastes exactly the same as the 2nd bottle. I don't re-use

> > plastic bottles.

> > The only difference is that one bottle has been to France and back. Not

> > exposed to undue heat - but possibly a bit cold as she was in French Alps.

> >

> > Perhaps, more along the lines of what suggested, rather than the

bottle

> > being contaminated, the bottle itself is defective? how would I know that?

> > It's a PET bottle.

> > I don't like posting glass, but I'm also not keen on plastic and getting

less

> > keen by the day!

> >

> >

> >

> > PS I thought you were having torrential rain, not a drizzle? Thanks for

links

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Intrigued can you explain more?

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> Unless the client was achlorohydrate (as was Rasputin) so spill the beans

, How long was her beard?

>

> Re: Re: Bizarre occurrence

>

> Absolutely!

>

> Anything is possible until proven otherwise!

>

> However even the tiniest sip of cyanide would have left said client stone dead

and too so I think that possibility can be ruled out!

>

> I think I'd be inclined to check the paperwork and then craft the novel based

on that it could be a best seller! True story!

>

> Lorraine

>

> Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

> HERBS AND HELPERS

> 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

> Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

> Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

> Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

> www.herbalmedicineuk.com

>

>

>

> > OK, my turn:

> >

> > I suggest that her husband, tired of being abandoned, while she jetted off

> > to France yet again to visit her good-looking and romantic French boyfriend,

> > decided enough was enough!

> > Experiencing extreme inner torment, whilst he imagined his beautiful wife

> > with his froggy competitor, he was unable to stop himself from grabbing the

> > said bottle. In blind jealous rage, he dripped in some cyanide, hoping

> > against hope that the bitter almond taste would be heavily disguised amongst

> > the foul-tasting brew that was her herbal medicine.

> >

> > Mightily disappointed was he when he watched his careful wife, on her

> > return, unscrew the bottle and gingerly sniff the mixture first, before

> > taking the tiniest of gulps. With a mixture off relief and anti-climax, he

> > witnessed his wife pick up the phone “, I think there is something

> > wrong with my mixture†he heard her say!...............

> >

> > Best wishes

> >

> > Fiona Shakeela Marple

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi Zoe

> > >

> > > That's a reasonable idea but I don't think explains it.

> > > Like helen suggested about taste receptors, I don't think it fits.

> > > the two medicines just simply taste different but have come from same

source.

> > >

> > > The mystery medicine today has no trace of wormwood taste at all.

> > > I read your message and have just tried (again) the herbs in the Rx

> > > separately.

> > > Lycopus is also bitter, but it is not the same taste. None of them has the

> > > same taste.

> > > I have two bottles here made from exactly the same ingredients and they

taste

> > > different. Patient has two other bottles made from same ingredients that

taste

> > > identical but different to one of the ones I have here.

> > >

> > > After Alix's post, I called patient again to double check what had

happened.

> > > She ordered the Rx before Christmas as she was going away and did not want

to

> > > run out.

> > > I sent her meds as previously stated (and you can rest assured I can

> > > demonstrate due diligence till the cows come home).

> > > She took one bottle to France with her and left the other one here. While

in

> > > France she was still taking her previous batch. However, she returned home

a

> > > few days early and the day after coming back, opened the bottle for her

final

> > > dose of the day. Noticed bitter taste. Took another dose next morning and

> > > again noticed bitterness, so phoned me.

> > > I checked etc, sent her replacement etc etc.

> > >

> > > So contents of both bottles identical, sent at same time. The bottles have

> > > sealed caps and it was only when she came back that she opened it. Seals

> > > unbroken so no tampering and no contamination possible.

> > > Replacement bottle tastes exactly the same as the 2nd bottle. I don't

re-use

> > > plastic bottles.

> > > The only difference is that one bottle has been to France and back. Not

> > > exposed to undue heat - but possibly a bit cold as she was in French Alps.

> > >

> > > Perhaps, more along the lines of what suggested, rather than the

bottle

> > > being contaminated, the bottle itself is defective? how would I know that?

> > > It's a PET bottle.

> > > I don't like posting glass, but I'm also not keen on plastic and getting

less

> > > keen by the day!

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > PS I thought you were having torrential rain, not a drizzle? Thanks for

links

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Cyanide needs to be in its ionic form to be toxic. Potassium Cyanide and Sodium

Cyanide are the two most common forms of this. Theses compounds usually break

down in the stomach under the action of hydrochloric acid (stomach acid) to

release the cyanide ions. Achlorohydrate people do not produce stomach acid and

so cannot be harmed by oral cyanides. However they will be just as vulnerable to

cyanide gas.

Now you have me worrying about latent psychopathic tendencies I may be

harbouring to accumulate this sort of knowledge!

Re: Re: Bizarre occurrence

>

> Absolutely!

>

> Anything is possible until proven otherwise!

>

> However even the tiniest sip of cyanide would have left said client stone dead

and too so I think that possibility can be ruled out!

>

> I think I'd be inclined to check the paperwork and then craft the novel based

on that it could be a best seller! True story!

>

> Lorraine

>

> Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

> HERBS AND HELPERS

> 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

> Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

> Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

> Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

> www.herbalmedicineuk.com

>

>

>

> > OK, my turn:

> >

> > I suggest that her husband, tired of being abandoned, while she jetted off

> > to France yet again to visit her good-looking and romantic French boyfriend,

> > decided enough was enough!

> > Experiencing extreme inner torment, whilst he imagined his beautiful wife

> > with his froggy competitor, he was unable to stop himself from grabbing the

> > said bottle. In blind jealous rage, he dripped in some cyanide, hoping

> > against hope that the bitter almond taste would be heavily disguised amongst

> > the foul-tasting brew that was her herbal medicine.

> >

> > Mightily disappointed was he when he watched his careful wife, on her

> > return, unscrew the bottle and gingerly sniff the mixture first, before

> > taking the tiniest of gulps. With a mixture off relief and anti-climax, he

> > witnessed his wife pick up the phone “, I think there is something

> > wrong with my mixture†he heard her say!...............

> >

> > Best wishes

> >

> > Fiona Shakeela Marple

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi Zoe

> > >

> > > That's a reasonable idea but I don't think explains it.

> > > Like helen suggested about taste receptors, I don't think it fits.

> > > the two medicines just simply taste different but have come from same

source.

> > >

> > > The mystery medicine today has no trace of wormwood taste at all.

> > > I read your message and have just tried (again) the herbs in the Rx

> > > separately.

> > > Lycopus is also bitter, but it is not the same taste. None of them has the

> > > same taste.

> > > I have two bottles here made from exactly the same ingredients and they

taste

> > > different. Patient has two other bottles made from same ingredients that

taste

> > > identical but different to one of the ones I have here.

> > >

> > > After Alix's post, I called patient again to double check what had

happened.

> > > She ordered the Rx before Christmas as she was going away and did not want

to

> > > run out.

> > > I sent her meds as previously stated (and you can rest assured I can

> > > demonstrate due diligence till the cows come home).

> > > She took one bottle to France with her and left the other one here. While

in

> > > France she was still taking her previous batch. However, she returned home

a

> > > few days early and the day after coming back, opened the bottle for her

final

> > > dose of the day. Noticed bitter taste. Took another dose next morning and

> > > again noticed bitterness, so phoned me.

> > > I checked etc, sent her replacement etc etc.

> > >

> > > So contents of both bottles identical, sent at same time. The bottles have

> > > sealed caps and it was only when she came back that she opened it. Seals

> > > unbroken so no tampering and no contamination possible.

> > > Replacement bottle tastes exactly the same as the 2nd bottle. I don't

re-use

> > > plastic bottles.

> > > The only difference is that one bottle has been to France and back. Not

> > > exposed to undue heat - but possibly a bit cold as she was in French Alps.

> > >

> > > Perhaps, more along the lines of what suggested, rather than the

bottle

> > > being contaminated, the bottle itself is defective? how would I know that?

> > > It's a PET bottle.

> > > I don't like posting glass, but I'm also not keen on plastic and getting

less

> > > keen by the day!

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > PS I thought you were having torrential rain, not a drizzle? Thanks for

links

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Well that's really interesting. I understand that spies had cyanide pills to

prevent them talking if caught. Apparently it renders all your cells ATP system

useless in seconds via a chain reaction? I think I picked that up in Chemistry

at school? Well being educated about dangers and perils is probably part of life

unless you're a Medieval poisoner of course.

Don't forget we all play with plenty deadly stuff day to day!

Best wishes,

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

>

> Cyanide needs to be in its ionic form to be toxic. Potassium Cyanide and

Sodium Cyanide are the two most common forms of this. Theses compounds usually

break down in the stomach under the action of hydrochloric acid (stomach acid)

to release the cyanide ions. Achlorohydrate people do not produce stomach acid

and so cannot be harmed by oral cyanides. However they will be just as

vulnerable to cyanide gas.

> Now you have me worrying about latent psychopathic tendencies I may be

harbouring to accumulate this sort of knowledge!

>

>

> Re: Re: Bizarre occurrence

> >

> > Absolutely!

> >

> > Anything is possible until proven otherwise!

> >

> > However even the tiniest sip of cyanide would have left said client stone

dead and too so I think that possibility can be ruled out!

> >

> > I think I'd be inclined to check the paperwork and then craft the novel

based on that it could be a best seller! True story!

> >

> > Lorraine

> >

> > Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

> > HERBS AND HELPERS

> > 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

> > Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

> > Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

> > Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

> > www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> >

> >

> >

> > > OK, my turn:

> > >

> > > I suggest that her husband, tired of being abandoned, while she jetted off

> > > to France yet again to visit her good-looking and romantic French

boyfriend,

> > > decided enough was enough!

> > > Experiencing extreme inner torment, whilst he imagined his beautiful wife

> > > with his froggy competitor, he was unable to stop himself from grabbing

the

> > > said bottle. In blind jealous rage, he dripped in some cyanide, hoping

> > > against hope that the bitter almond taste would be heavily disguised

amongst

> > > the foul-tasting brew that was her herbal medicine.

> > >

> > > Mightily disappointed was he when he watched his careful wife, on her

> > > return, unscrew the bottle and gingerly sniff the mixture first, before

> > > taking the tiniest of gulps. With a mixture off relief and anti-climax, he

> > > witnessed his wife pick up the phone “, I think there is something

> > > wrong with my mixture†he heard her say!...............

> > >

> > > Best wishes

> > >

> > > Fiona Shakeela Marple

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi Zoe

> > > >

> > > > That's a reasonable idea but I don't think explains it.

> > > > Like helen suggested about taste receptors, I don't think it fits.

> > > > the two medicines just simply taste different but have come from same

source.

> > > >

> > > > The mystery medicine today has no trace of wormwood taste at all.

> > > > I read your message and have just tried (again) the herbs in the Rx

> > > > separately.

> > > > Lycopus is also bitter, but it is not the same taste. None of them has

the

> > > > same taste.

> > > > I have two bottles here made from exactly the same ingredients and they

taste

> > > > different. Patient has two other bottles made from same ingredients that

taste

> > > > identical but different to one of the ones I have here.

> > > >

> > > > After Alix's post, I called patient again to double check what had

happened.

> > > > She ordered the Rx before Christmas as she was going away and did not

want to

> > > > run out.

> > > > I sent her meds as previously stated (and you can rest assured I can

> > > > demonstrate due diligence till the cows come home).

> > > > She took one bottle to France with her and left the other one here.

While in

> > > > France she was still taking her previous batch. However, she returned

home a

> > > > few days early and the day after coming back, opened the bottle for her

final

> > > > dose of the day. Noticed bitter taste. Took another dose next morning

and

> > > > again noticed bitterness, so phoned me.

> > > > I checked etc, sent her replacement etc etc.

> > > >

> > > > So contents of both bottles identical, sent at same time. The bottles

have

> > > > sealed caps and it was only when she came back that she opened it. Seals

> > > > unbroken so no tampering and no contamination possible.

> > > > Replacement bottle tastes exactly the same as the 2nd bottle. I don't

re-use

> > > > plastic bottles.

> > > > The only difference is that one bottle has been to France and back. Not

> > > > exposed to undue heat - but possibly a bit cold as she was in French

Alps.

> > > >

> > > > Perhaps, more along the lines of what suggested, rather than the

bottle

> > > > being contaminated, the bottle itself is defective? how would I know

that?

> > > > It's a PET bottle.

> > > > I don't like posting glass, but I'm also not keen on plastic and getting

less

> > > > keen by the day!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > PS I thought you were having torrential rain, not a drizzle? Thanks for

links

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dear Ms Marple...this is more like it

xxTherri

From: Fiona Shakeela Burns

Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 10:09 AM

To: ukherbal-list

Subject: Re: Re: Bizarre occurrence

OK, my turn:

I suggest that her husband, tired of being abandoned, while she jetted off

to France yet again to visit her good-looking and romantic French boyfriend,

decided enough was enough!

Experiencing extreme inner torment, whilst he imagined his beautiful wife

with his froggy competitor, he was unable to stop himself from grabbing the

said bottle. In blind jealous rage, he dripped in some cyanide, hoping

against hope that the bitter almond taste would be heavily disguised amongst

the foul-tasting brew that was her herbal medicine.

Mightily disappointed was he when he watched his careful wife, on her

return, unscrew the bottle and gingerly sniff the mixture first, before

taking the tiniest of gulps. With a mixture off relief and anti-climax, he

witnessed his wife pick up the phone ³, I think there is something

wrong with my mixture² he heard her say!...............

Best wishes

Fiona Shakeela Marple

>

>

>

>

>

> Hi Zoe

>

> That's a reasonable idea but I don't think explains it.

> Like helen suggested about taste receptors, I don't think it fits.

> the two medicines just simply taste different but have come from same source.

>

> The mystery medicine today has no trace of wormwood taste at all.

> I read your message and have just tried (again) the herbs in the Rx

> separately.

> Lycopus is also bitter, but it is not the same taste. None of them has the

> same taste.

> I have two bottles here made from exactly the same ingredients and they taste

> different. Patient has two other bottles made from same ingredients that taste

> identical but different to one of the ones I have here.

>

> After Alix's post, I called patient again to double check what had happened.

> She ordered the Rx before Christmas as she was going away and did not want to

> run out.

> I sent her meds as previously stated (and you can rest assured I can

> demonstrate due diligence till the cows come home).

> She took one bottle to France with her and left the other one here. While in

> France she was still taking her previous batch. However, she returned home a

> few days early and the day after coming back, opened the bottle for her final

> dose of the day. Noticed bitter taste. Took another dose next morning and

> again noticed bitterness, so phoned me.

> I checked etc, sent her replacement etc etc.

>

> So contents of both bottles identical, sent at same time. The bottles have

> sealed caps and it was only when she came back that she opened it. Seals

> unbroken so no tampering and no contamination possible.

> Replacement bottle tastes exactly the same as the 2nd bottle. I don't re-use

> plastic bottles.

> The only difference is that one bottle has been to France and back. Not

> exposed to undue heat - but possibly a bit cold as she was in French Alps.

>

> Perhaps, more along the lines of what suggested, rather than the bottle

> being contaminated, the bottle itself is defective? how would I know that?

> It's a PET bottle.

> I don't like posting glass, but I'm also not keen on plastic and getting less

> keen by the day!

>

>

>

> PS I thought you were having torrential rain, not a drizzle? Thanks for links

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Excellent, now Rasputin enters the fray!

From: Whitton

Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 10:37 AM

To: ukherbal-list

Subject: Re: Re: Bizarre occurrence

Unless the client was achlorohydrate (as was Rasputin) so spill the beans ,

How long was her beard?

Re: Re: Bizarre occurrence

Absolutely!

Anything is possible until proven otherwise!

However even the tiniest sip of cyanide would have left said client stone dead

and too so I think that possibility can be ruled out!

I think I'd be inclined to check the paperwork and then craft the novel based on

that it could be a best seller! True story!

Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MNIMH MRCHM

HERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,

Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com

> OK, my turn:

>

> I suggest that her husband, tired of being abandoned, while she jetted off

> to France yet again to visit her good-looking and romantic French boyfriend,

> decided enough was enough!

> Experiencing extreme inner torment, whilst he imagined his beautiful wife

> with his froggy competitor, he was unable to stop himself from grabbing the

> said bottle. In blind jealous rage, he dripped in some cyanide, hoping

> against hope that the bitter almond taste would be heavily disguised amongst

> the foul-tasting brew that was her herbal medicine.

>

> Mightily disappointed was he when he watched his careful wife, on her

> return, unscrew the bottle and gingerly sniff the mixture first, before

> taking the tiniest of gulps. With a mixture off relief and anti-climax, he

> witnessed his wife pick up the phone “, I think there is something

> wrong with my mixture†he heard her say!...............

>

> Best wishes

>

> Fiona Shakeela Marple

>

>

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi Zoe

> >

> > That's a reasonable idea but I don't think explains it.

> > Like helen suggested about taste receptors, I don't think it fits.

> > the two medicines just simply taste different but have come from same

source.

> >

> > The mystery medicine today has no trace of wormwood taste at all.

> > I read your message and have just tried (again) the herbs in the Rx

> > separately.

> > Lycopus is also bitter, but it is not the same taste. None of them has the

> > same taste.

> > I have two bottles here made from exactly the same ingredients and they

taste

> > different. Patient has two other bottles made from same ingredients that

taste

> > identical but different to one of the ones I have here.

> >

> > After Alix's post, I called patient again to double check what had happened.

> > She ordered the Rx before Christmas as she was going away and did not want

to

> > run out.

> > I sent her meds as previously stated (and you can rest assured I can

> > demonstrate due diligence till the cows come home).

> > She took one bottle to France with her and left the other one here. While in

> > France she was still taking her previous batch. However, she returned home a

> > few days early and the day after coming back, opened the bottle for her

final

> > dose of the day. Noticed bitter taste. Took another dose next morning and

> > again noticed bitterness, so phoned me.

> > I checked etc, sent her replacement etc etc.

> >

> > So contents of both bottles identical, sent at same time. The bottles have

> > sealed caps and it was only when she came back that she opened it. Seals

> > unbroken so no tampering and no contamination possible.

> > Replacement bottle tastes exactly the same as the 2nd bottle. I don't re-use

> > plastic bottles.

> > The only difference is that one bottle has been to France and back. Not

> > exposed to undue heat - but possibly a bit cold as she was in French Alps.

> >

> > Perhaps, more along the lines of what suggested, rather than the

bottle

> > being contaminated, the bottle itself is defective? how would I know that?

> > It's a PET bottle.

> > I don't like posting glass, but I'm also not keen on plastic and getting

less

> > keen by the day!

> >

> >

> >

> > PS I thought you were having torrential rain, not a drizzle? Thanks for

links

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

Thank you for a very interesting and indeed bizarre discussion!

You have won first prize for the discussion which has generated the most

imaginative posts ever!

Your prize is a free edition of.......wait for it

............ Batch Master !! Ha ha

Fiona

>

>

>

>

>

> Perhaps not so much psychopathic and more of a Columbo tendency?

>

> By pure coincidence I had to go to Shrewsbury today - home of course to Ellis

> 's Cadfael (medieval detective monk/herbalist). I wasn't doing any

> sleuthing though.

>

> And what do I discover when I come back?

> You have created Miss Marple's Herbal Detective Agency.

> I always knew there was genius on this list.

>

> Thanks for brilliant email, Fiona - loved it.

> What happens in chapter 2?

>

>

>

>

>>>> > > >

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > > Hi Zoe

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > > That's a reasonable idea but I don't think explains it.

>>>>> > > > > Like helen suggested about taste receptors, I don't think it fits.

>>>>> > > > > the two medicines just simply taste different but have come from

>>>>> same source.

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > > The mystery medicine today has no trace of wormwood taste at all.

>>>>> > > > > I read your message and have just tried (again) the herbs in the

Rx

>>>>> > > > > separately.

>>>>> > > > > Lycopus is also bitter, but it is not the same taste. None of them

has the

>>>>> > > > > same taste.

>>>>> > > > > I have two bottles here made from exactly the same ingredients and

>>>>> they taste

>>>>> > > > > different. Patient has two other bottles made from same

>>>>> ingredients that taste

>>>>> > > > > identical but different to one of the ones I have here.

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > > After Alix's post, I called patient again to double check what had

>>>>> happened.

>>>>> > > > > She ordered the Rx before Christmas as she was going away and did

>>>>> not want to

>>>>> > > > > run out.

>>>>> > > > > I sent her meds as previously stated (and you can rest assured I

can

>>>>> > > > > demonstrate due diligence till the cows come home).

>>>>> > > > > She took one bottle to France with her and left the other one

>>>>> here. While in

>>>>> > > > > France she was still taking her previous batch. However, she

>>>>> returned home a

>>>>> > > > > few days early and the day after coming back, opened the bottle

>>>>> for her final

>>>>> > > > > dose of the day. Noticed bitter taste. Took another dose next

>>>>> morning and

>>>>> > > > > again noticed bitterness, so phoned me.

>>>>> > > > > I checked etc, sent her replacement etc etc.

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > > So contents of both bottles identical, sent at same time. The

>>>>> bottles have

>>>>> > > > > sealed caps and it was only when she came back that she opened it.

Seals

>>>>> > > > > unbroken so no tampering and no contamination possible.

>>>>> > > > > Replacement bottle tastes exactly the same as the 2nd bottle. I

>>>>> don't re-use

>>>>> > > > > plastic bottles.

>>>>> > > > > The only difference is that one bottle has been to France and

>>>>> back. Not

>>>>> > > > > exposed to undue heat - but possibly a bit cold as she was in

>>>>> French Alps.

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > > Perhaps, more along the lines of what suggested, rather than

>>>>> the bottle

>>>>> > > > > being contaminated, the bottle itself is defective? how would I

>>>>> know that?

>>>>> > > > > It's a PET bottle.

>>>>> > > > > I don't like posting glass, but I'm also not keen on plastic and

>>>>> getting less

>>>>> > > > > keen by the day!

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > > PS I thought you were having torrential rain, not a drizzle?

>>>>> Thanks for links

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > >

>>>>> > > > >

>>>> > > >

>>>> > > >

[Guest guest]

well it could have just been sitting in her handbag on top of the heating, in

the eurostar it is quite hot at times. MArilena.

To: ukherbal-list

From: laura.stannard@...

Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 18:45:51 +0000

Subject: Re: Bizarre occurrence

Eurostar, Kerry.

it's a reasonable thought though, but again -she had another bottle of medicine

with her (previous one with same herbs, but dispensed at different time) and

that was not effected.

That one was different batch of and Lycopus.

however bottle was glass not plastic.

I am thinking more and more that there must be something about this particular

bottle.

I'm not sure I really want to start thinking about what x-rays do to our

medicines !