Re: I want to believe (a monologue, perhaps dialogue, about reason and belief)

October 11, 2010

Hi DetlefJust a quick response. I too have often envied people with a religious faith, because it provides them with a meaning and a reason to life. How handy! How convenient! I too was brought up in a home where faith wasn't practiced.All I can say is that, as an unbeliever, I have to create my own meaning, through my identifying own values, and that is what I like about ACT, the emphasis on personal values. But I don't find it easy, and I think half of me hopes that one day I'll hear a voice booming through the clouds, telling me what it's all about. My rational side says that aint going to happen.CheersKateThis post isn't necessarily pertinent to ACT. I am writing it after watching a dialogue between and Sam at a Secular Humanism conference held in Los Angeles this past weekend, and I am wondering if it should form the basis for a blog.Seehttp://www.ustream.tv/recorded/10106928#utm_campaigne=synclickback & source=http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/wrightharris-debate/ & medium=10106928Was it the fictional Fox Muldur, in the TV series X-Files, who said "I want to believe"? He and I have something in common, then, because I, too, want to believe. But belief in what, precisely? In my case, it would be a belief in an all-powerful god who cares for me, and belief in an afterlife -- an afterlife in which existence would be perfect, that perfection being whatever we conceive it to be.A little history: I came to ACT as a result of being referred to an ACT practitioner by my GP, because I had presented as experiencing depression. Before meeting this psychiatrist, I had not heard of ACT. However, I did have an abiding interest in Buddhist philosophy, and upon reading Russ 's The Happiness Trap -- which was suggested by the psychiatrist, and which I have yet to finish reading -- I saw that ACT had a good fit with Buddhist philosophy.In the matter of belief in such fantastical things as mentioned above, I am unable to subscribe to such beliefs, chiefly because there is no part of my experience which would lend credence to the existence of either a god or of an afterlife, this in spite of the first seven years of my education having been at the hands of the Catholic church.Over the years (I am now 60), I have developed the hypothesis that I might have become a believer in the above if certain elements of my experience of life as a young individual had been true. First, although my parents were nominally Catholic, religion was seldom discussed in our home, and my parents rarely ever set foot in a church. I think that, like many of their generation, they sent their children to a Catholic school to be educated in morality. (I now see that as a serious abdication on their part, for not having the wherewithal to undertake such moral education themselves -- but more on that later.) Second, my experience of those seven years of Catholic education were overwhelmingly negative, not only due to those doing the teaching, but also because of the domestic dynamics operating on the home front. My teachers for the first six years of my education were nuns, and almost without exception, these were women who appeared to be miserable and wholly unsuited to the task with which they were charged: the education of young children. I can remember only one woman, a nun named Sister , who seemed to actually like children, and who enjoyed working with them.In short, I am wondering had my home life and my school experience been predominantly positive, would that positivity have translated into an abiding belief in a god and an afterlife? At this stage of my life I cannot answer that question one way or another. All I can attest to is that I require some sort of evidence before I can believe in anything, evidence that is obvious to everyone and which does not require faith.I don't disrespect people who have faith; in some ways I envy them. I just don't understand "faith" when used in such a way. I have faith that the plane I'm on will fly without mishap, thanks to the engineers who built them and the pilots who fly them.Sorry for the ramble. I'm trying to bring cohesion to some vaguely inchoate thoughts. Writing and publishing those thoughts somehow helps me to do that.Regards,Detlef

October 11, 2010

I do not have envy for believers. First, nature and our understanding of it through science is a hell of lot more fascinating and interesting than religion. The story of evolution or how the solar system came together or the big bang or ecology or how materials are made up of atoms, or how the human mind works or quantum mechanics or on and on is much more interesting than god created the world in 6 days and sat around and watched football all day on the 7th or how jesus was tortured and killed or how this loving god will send you to burn in hell forever if you don't believe in him.

And as far as meaning, the christian religion only gives meaning to after life. It's not at all about meaning for this life now on earth. This life is only about preparing for " life " after this life. On my own I can make meaning for my life now on this earth.

Hi DetlefJust a quick response. I too have often envied people with a religious faith, because it provides them with a meaning and a reason to life. How handy! How convenient! I too was brought up in a home where faith wasn't practiced.

All I can say is that, as an unbeliever, I have to create my own meaning, through my identifying own values, and that is what I like about ACT, the emphasis on personal values. But I don't find it easy, and I think half of me hopes that one day I'll hear a voice booming through the clouds, telling me what it's all about. My rational side says that aint going to happen.

CheersKate

This post isn't necessarily pertinent to ACT. I am writing it after watching a dialogue between and Sam at a Secular Humanism conference held in Los Angeles this past weekend, and I am wondering if it should form the basis for a blog.

Seehttp://www.ustream.tv/recorded/10106928#utm_campaigne=synclickback & source=http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/wrightharris-debate/ & medium=10106928

Was it the fictional Fox Muldur, in the TV series X-Files, who said " I want to believe " ? He and I have something in common, then, because I, too, want to believe. But belief in what, precisely? In my case, it would be a belief in an all-powerful god who cares for me, and belief in an afterlife -- an afterlife in which existence would be perfect, that perfection being whatever we conceive it to be.

A little history: I came to ACT as a result of being referred to an ACT practitioner by my GP, because I had presented as experiencing depression. Before meeting this psychiatrist, I had not heard of ACT. However, I did have an abiding interest in Buddhist philosophy, and upon reading Russ 's The Happiness Trap -- which was suggested by the psychiatrist, and which I have yet to finish reading -- I saw that ACT had a good fit with Buddhist philosophy.

In the matter of belief in such fantastical things as mentioned above, I am unable to subscribe to such beliefs, chiefly because there is no part of my experience which would lend credence to the existence of either a god or of an afterlife, this in spite of the first seven years of my education having been at the hands of the Catholic church.

Over the years (I am now 60), I have developed the hypothesis that I might have become a believer in the above if certain elements of my experience of life as a young individual had been true. First, although my parents were nominally Catholic, religion was seldom discussed in our home, and my parents rarely ever set foot in a church. I think that, like many of their generation, they sent their children to a Catholic school to be educated in morality. (I now see that as a serious abdication on their part, for not having the wherewithal to undertake such moral education themselves -- but more on that later.) Second, my experience of those seven years of Catholic education were overwhelmingly negative, not only due to those doing the teaching, but also because of the domestic dynamics operating on the home front. My teachers for the first six years of my education were nuns, and almost without exception, these were women who appeared to be miserable and wholly unsuited to the task with which they were charged: the education of young children. I can remember only one woman, a nun named Sister , who seemed to actually like children, and who enjoyed working with them.

In short, I am wondering had my home life and my school experience been predominantly positive, would that positivity have translated into an abiding belief in a god and an afterlife? At this stage of my life I cannot answer that question one way or another. All I can attest to is that I require some sort of evidence before I can believe in anything, evidence that is obvious to everyone and which does not require faith.

I don't disrespect people who have faith; in some ways I envy them. I just don't understand " faith " when used in such a way. I have faith that the plane I'm on will fly without mishap, thanks to the engineers who built them and the pilots who fly them.

Sorry for the ramble. I'm trying to bring cohesion to some vaguely inchoate thoughts. Writing and publishing those thoughts somehow helps me to do that.

Regards,Detlef

October 12, 2010

I agree with , science provides us with so much more in terms of what we know about our origins, our surroundings and ourselves. This makes it all the easier in formulating a clear set of values that are based on what we know from what the data shows and/or being able to actually admit that we don't know certain things, and that's okay. This acceptance of who we are and what our limitations are enable us to live a truly valued existence. When I was 16 I was diagnosed with OCD (although I had milder symptoms from the age of 13, peaking just before I turned 16). I remember how my life in general took a turn for the worst; my grades plummeted, my social life went down the drain, etc. My obsessions had a religious basis, as I was religious from a young age and my mother's side of the family were believers. OCD is most probably a mix

between genetic predispositioning and behavioural conditioning from our immediate environment so I'm not blaming religion for my OCD, my obsessions could have been based on excessive fears of contaminations (I had a few of these compulsions though, along with checking, probably in an attempt to gain some control over the uncontrollable). The intrusive thoughts involved my family's fate, whether 'god' would look out for them, whether they'd be 'saved', and so forth. The medication and CB therapy helped a bit but what really helped me truly begin limiting the interference caused by these obsessions and compulsions in my daily life was when I began questioning. I was always curious from a young age, somewhat more philosophically inclined at an age when my peers only really worried about how to destroy the first set of pimples on their faces (I had zits too, I just felt I had bigger concerns). At around 18, when I entered

university and decided to study psychology, philosophy and political science, I was still held captive by the religious obsessions when I was alone or even when I was in public (I became a master of disguising my mental checks and increasing anxiety levels). It was only when I turned 23 however that I really started to change. In the years that preceded I had pursued my childhood interests in philosophy and astrophysics, I had completed my undergrad degree in psychology yet still I couldn't let go of the irrational thoughts that forced me to perform behaviours to prove to 'god' that I was loyal. Eventually I decided to apply for a phd in psychology in order to further my understanding of OCD. So I was accepted into the behavioural group's family of postgrads and since then, I have noticed drastic changes in how I view myself and my existence. I'm not 27, an atheist, dedicated to asking questions that I know cannot all be

answered at this point and have gained an understanding of OCD that few other sufferers have. I've come to realise that the best defence against the irrational thoughts is logic, acceptance, understanding and confidence in your beliefs. Obviously this is just how things worked out for me but I thought I'd share my experience here as I can really relate to the topic of discussion. What gives my life meaning now is knowing that our existence is a stroke of luck (lucky for us, maybe not so lucky for out planet!), that there is so much we don't know about anything, we really are insignificant in the 'greater scheme' of things but all that is okay, and exciting! We know our place in the universe is not a privileged one yet we know that we have the ability to make a difference and to push our limits on a daily basis. Our existence may just be the result of a number of variables that worked out in our favour but we, as conscious

beings, can give our lives meaning. For me, the meaning of life is about contributing to society, living in harmony with the rest of the natural world, reaching our potential in harmony with the world around us and creating a better world for the next generations. This meaning I've given to my life is what drives me to admit I don't know many things, that I want to learn, that I want to teach younger minds what I know in the hope that they will build on from whatever knowledge I've accumulated, that by living a life based on my values I will be true to myself and that all of this might one day lead to future generations creating a better world that places humanity above profit, reconnecting man with what is truly important. This is what I have faith in; that mankind will one day be able to move beyond the myths, the invisible borderlines, the self-serving acts of accumulating wealth at the expense of others and towards the

realisation that there is not only more beauty in science than in myth but also that there is a greater cause that is more important than our own individual little lives. I have faith that humanity will be able to work towards a greater good and that through questioning without limits, we will push ourselves to break free of the constraints of the past. My values are based on this belief. This works for me but it may not for you. The trick is, in my opinion, to really believe in something and to have the confidence in that belief that will give you the ability to provide a sense of meaning in life that is much greater than any church or ideology can ever offer.

This post isn't necessarily pertinent to ACT. I am writing it after watching a dialogue between and Sam at a Secular Humanism conference held in Los Angeles this past weekend, and I am wondering if it should form the basis for a blog.

Seehttp://www.ustream.tv/recorded/10106928#utm_campaigne=synclickback & source=http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/wrightharris-debate/ & medium=10106928

Was it the fictional Fox Muldur, in the TV series X-Files, who said "I want to believe"? He and I have something in common, then, because I, too, want to believe. But belief in what, precisely? In my case, it would be a belief in an all-powerful god who cares for me, and belief in an afterlife -- an afterlife in which existence would be perfect, that perfection being whatever we conceive it to be.

A little history: I came to ACT as a result of being referred to an ACT practitioner by my GP, because I had presented as experiencing depression. Before meeting this psychiatrist, I had not heard of ACT. However, I did have an abiding interest in Buddhist philosophy, and upon reading Russ 's The Happiness Trap -- which was suggested by the psychiatrist, and which I have yet to finish reading -- I saw that ACT had a good fit with Buddhist philosophy.

In the matter of belief in such fantastical things as mentioned above, I am unable to subscribe to such beliefs, chiefly because there is no part of my experience which would lend credence to the existence of either a god or of an afterlife, this in spite of the first seven years of my education having been at the hands of the Catholic church.

Over the years (I am now 60), I have developed the hypothesis that I might have become a believer in the above if certain elements of my experience of life as a young individual had been true. First, although my parents were nominally Catholic, religion was seldom discussed in our home, and my parents rarely ever set foot in a church. I think that, like many of their generation, they sent their children to a Catholic school to be educated in morality. (I now see that as a serious abdication on their part, for not having the wherewithal to undertake such moral education themselves -- but more on that later.) Second, my experience of those seven years of Catholic education were overwhelmingly negative, not only due to those doing the teaching, but also because of the domestic dynamics operating on the home front. My teachers for the first six years of my education were nuns, and almost without exception, these were women who appeared to be miserable

and wholly unsuited to the task with which they were charged: the education of young children. I can remember only one woman, a nun named Sister , who seemed to actually like children, and who enjoyed working with them.

In short, I am wondering had my home life and my school experience been predominantly positive, would that positivity have translated into an abiding belief in a god and an afterlife? At this stage of my life I cannot answer that question one way or another. All I can attest to is that I require some sort of evidence before I can believe in anything, evidence that is obvious to everyone and which does not require faith.

I don't disrespect people who have faith; in some ways I envy them. I just don't understand "faith" when used in such a way. I have faith that the plane I'm on will fly without mishap, thanks to the engineers who built them and the pilots who fly them.

Sorry for the ramble. I'm trying to bring cohesion to some vaguely inchoate thoughts. Writing and publishing those thoughts somehow helps me to do that.

Regards,Detlef

October 12, 2010

Thank you, Kate.Sometimes, when it comes up in conversation, I'll say that I live in an evidence-based world -- a statement that is usually met with incomprehension on the part of dyed-in-the-wool believers. The fact of the matter, for me at least, is that my experience of a Catholic education, for those first seven years from age 6 through 12, coupled with being raised in a dysfunctional family, actually set me on a course of nonbelief. Knowing what I've learned during the intervening years, there is no way that I could ever become a believer in what I consider to be spurious nonsense. What I was trying to figure out was how would I have turned out had my experience of home and school life been other than it was.Regards,Detlef> > > This post isn't necessarily pertinent to ACT. I am writing it after > > watching a dialogue between and Sam at a > > Secular Humanism conference held in Los Angeles this past weekend, > > and I am wondering if it should form the basis for a blog.> >> > Seehttp://www.ustream.tv/recorded/ > > 10106928#utm_campaigne=synclickback & source=http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/wrightharris-debate/ & medium=10106928> >> > Was it the fictional Fox Muldur, in the TV series X-Files, who said > > "I want to believe"? He and I have something in common, then, > > because I, too, want to believe. But belief in what, precisely? In > > my case, it would be a belief in an all-powerful god who cares for > > me, and belief in an afterlife -- an afterlife in which existence > > would be perfect, that perfection being whatever we conceive it to be.> >> > A little history: I came to ACT as a result of being referred to an > > ACT practitioner by my GP, because I had presented as experiencing > > depression. Before meeting this psychiatrist, I had not heard of > > ACT. However, I did have an abiding interest in Buddhist philosophy, > > and upon reading Russ 's The Happiness Trap -- which was > > suggested by the psychiatrist, and which I have yet to finish > > reading -- I saw that ACT had a good fit with Buddhist philosophy.> >> > In the matter of belief in such fantastical things as mentioned > > above, I am unable to subscribe to such beliefs, chiefly because > > there is no part of my experience which would lend credence to the > > existence of either a god or of an afterlife, this in spite of the > > first seven years of my education having been at the hands of the > > Catholic church.> >> > Over the years (I am now 60), I have developed the hypothesis that I > > might have become a believer in the above if certain elements of my > > experience of life as a young individual had been true. First, > > although my parents were nominally Catholic, religion was seldom > > discussed in our home, and my parents rarely ever set foot in a > > church. I think that, like many of their generation, they sent their > > children to a Catholic school to be educated in morality. (I now see > > that as a serious abdication on their part, for not having the > > wherewithal to undertake such moral education themselves -- but more > > on that later.) Second, my experience of those seven years of > > Catholic education were overwhelmingly negative, not only due to > > those doing the teaching, but also because of the domestic dynamics > > operating on the home front. My teachers for the first six years of > > my education were nuns, and almost without exception, these were > > women who appeared to be miserable and wholly unsuited to the task > > with which they were charged: the education of young children. I can > > remember only one woman, a nun named Sister , who > > seemed to actually like children, and who enjoyed working with them.> >> > In short, I am wondering had my home life and my school experience > > been predominantly positive, would that positivity have translated > > into an abiding belief in a god and an afterlife? At this stage of > > my life I cannot answer that question one way or another. All I can > > attest to is that I require some sort of evidence before I can > > believe in anything, evidence that is obvious to everyone and which > > does not require faith.> >> > I don't disrespect people who have faith; in some ways I envy them. > > I just don't understand "faith" when used in such a way. I have > > faith that the plane I'm on will fly without mishap, thanks to the > > engineers who built them and the pilots who fly them.> >> > Sorry for the ramble. I'm trying to bring cohesion to some vaguely > > inchoate thoughts. Writing and publishing those thoughts somehow > > helps me to do that.> >> >> > Regards,> >> > Detlef> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>

October 12, 2010

Very well said, and thank you for writing that.Regards,Detlef> > This post isn't necessarily pertinent to ACT. I am writing it after watching a dialogue between and Sam at a Secular Humanism conference held in Los Angeles this past weekend, and I am wondering if it should form the basis for a blog.> > > Seehttp://www.ustream.tv/recorded/10106928#utm_campaigne=synclickback & source=http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/wrightharris-debate/ & medium=10106928> > > Was it the fictional Fox Muldur, in the TV series X-Files, who said "I want to believe"? He and I have something in common, then, because I, too, want to believe. But belief in what, precisely? In my case, it would be a belief in an all-powerful god who cares for me, and belief in an afterlife -- an afterlife in which existence would be perfect, that perfection being whatever we conceive it to be.> > > A little history: I came to ACT as a result of being referred to an ACT practitioner by my GP, because I had presented as experiencing depression. Before meeting this psychiatrist, I had not heard of ACT. However, I did have an abiding interest in Buddhist philosophy, and upon reading Russ 's The Happiness Trap -- which was suggested by the psychiatrist, and which I have yet to finish reading -- I saw that ACT had a good fit with Buddhist philosophy.> > > In the matter of belief in such fantastical things as mentioned above, I am unable to subscribe to such beliefs, chiefly because there is no part of my experience which would lend credence to the existence of either a god or of an afterlife, this in spite of the first seven years of my education having been at the hands of the Catholic church.> > > Over the years (I am now 60), I have developed the hypothesis that I might have become a believer in the above if certain elements of my experience of life as a young individual had been true. First, although my parents were nominally Catholic, religion was seldom discussed in our home, and my parents rarely ever set foot in a church. I think that, like many of their generation, they sent their children to a Catholic school to be educated in morality. (I now see that as a serious abdication on their part, for not having the wherewithal to undertake such moral education themselves -- but more on that later.) Second, my experience of those seven years of Catholic education were overwhelmingly negative, not only due to those doing the teaching, but also because of the domestic dynamics operating on the home front. My teachers for the first six years of my education were nuns, and almost without exception, these were women who appeared to be miserable> and wholly unsuited to the task with which they were charged: the education of young children. I can remember only one woman, a nun named Sister , who seemed to actually like children, and who enjoyed working with them.> > > In short, I am wondering had my home life and my school experience been predominantly positive, would that positivity have translated into an abiding belief in a god and an afterlife? At this stage of my life I cannot answer that question one way or another. All I can attest to is that I require some sort of evidence before I can believe in anything, evidence that is obvious to everyone and which does not require faith.> > > I don't disrespect people who have faith; in some ways I envy them. I just don't understand "faith" when used in such a way. I have faith that the plane I'm on will fly without mishap, thanks to the engineers who built them and the pilots who fly them.> > > Sorry for the ramble. I'm trying to bring cohesion to some vaguely inchoate thoughts. Writing and publishing those thoughts somehow helps me to do that.> > > > Regards,> > Detlef> > > >

October 12, 2010

Worshipping one's own conception of the infinite is one thing, telling other

people how they can and cannot live, and who they can and cannot love is quite

another. Pity these things so often seem to be conflated. As a gay man I'm fed

up with being told I'm evil.

Not that I'm accusing all believers by any means. I know some wonderful,

intelligent people who happen to be Christian, or Buddhist, or Muslim, and even

go to evensong myself on occasion (for the music!)

T

October 12, 2010

My JW friend believes that there will be paradise on Earth one day. I said to

him it will be sunny all the time and the cows will be up in the hills making us

lots of milk, cheese, and cream, and all the little piggies with their happy

waggly tails will running around making us loads of lovely bacon.

Kaivey

> >

> >This post isn't necessarily pertinent to ACT. I am writing it after watching

a

> >dialogue between and Sam at a Secular Humanism

conference

> >held in Los Angeles this past weekend, and I am wondering if it should form

the

> >basis for a blog.

> >>

>

>>Seehttp://www.ustream.tv/recorded/10106928#utm_campaigne=synclickback & source=h\

ttp://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/wrightharris-debate/ & medium=10\

106928

> >>

> >>Was it the fictional Fox Muldur, in the TV series X-Files, who said " I want

to

> >>believe " ? He and I have something in common, then, because I, too, want to

> >>believe. But belief in what, precisely? In my case, it would be a belief in

an

> >>all-powerful god who cares for me, and belief in an afterlife -- an

afterlife in

> >>which existence would be perfect, that perfection being whatever we conceive

it

> >>to be.

> >>

> >>A little history: I came to ACT as a result of being referred to an ACT

> >>practitioner by my GP, because I had presented as experiencing depression.

> >>Before meeting this psychiatrist, I had not heard of ACT. However, I did

have an

> >>abiding interest in Buddhist philosophy, and upon reading Russ 's The

> >>Happiness Trap -- which was suggested by the psychiatrist, and which I have

yet

> >>to finish reading -- I saw that ACT had a good fit with Buddhist philosophy.

> >>

> >>In the matter of belief in such fantastical things as mentioned above, I am

> >>unable to subscribe to such beliefs, chiefly because there is no part of my

> >>experience which would lend credence to the existence of either a god or of

an

> >>afterlife, this in spite of the first seven years of my education having

been at

> >>the hands of the Catholic church.

> >>

> >>Over the years (I am now 60), I have developed the hypothesis that I might

have

> >>become a believer in the above if certain elements of my experience of life

as a

> >>young individual had been true. First, although my parents were nominally

> >>Catholic, religion was seldom discussed in our home, and my parents rarely

ever

> >>set foot in a church. I think that, like many of their generation, they sent

> >>their children to a Catholic school to be educated in morality. (I now see

that

> >>as a serious abdication on their part, for not having the wherewithal to

> >>undertake such moral education themselves -- but more on that later.)

Second, my

> >>experience of those seven years of Catholic education were overwhelmingly

> >>negative, not only due to those doing the teaching, but also because of the

> >>domestic dynamics operating on the home front. My teachers for the first six

> >>years of my education were nuns, and almost without exception, these were

women

> >>who appeared to be miserable and wholly unsuited to the task with which they

> >>were charged: the education of young children. I can remember only one

woman, a

> >>nun named Sister , who seemed to actually like children, and

who

> >>enjoyed working with them.

> >>

> >>In short, I am wondering had my home life and my school experience been

> >>predominantly positive, would that positivity have translated into an

abiding

> >>belief in a god and an afterlife? At this stage of my life I cannot answer

that

> >>question one way or another. All I can attest to is that I require some sort

of

> >>evidence before I can believe in anything, evidence that is obvious to

everyone

> >>and which does not require faith.

> >>

> >>I don't disrespect people who have faith; in some ways I envy them. I just

don't

> >>understand " faith " when used in such a way. I have faith that the plane I'm

on

> >>will fly without mishap, thanks to the engineers who built them and the

pilots

> >>who fly them.

> >>

> >>Sorry for the ramble. I'm trying to bring cohesion to some vaguely inchoate

> >>thoughts. Writing and publishing those thoughts somehow helps me to do that.

> >>

> >>Regards,

> >>

> >>Detlef

> >>

> >

>

October 12, 2010

I don't know that I wish I could believe. I don't really envy the faith of my religious family members. They, however, believe that if I could just find peace through God, my anxiety would disappear. I was raised Catholic also, but it never resonated. In college, I started to question my faith and I remember the feeling of anxiety I experienced at having my prior beliefs challenged by a particular anthropology professor. Eventually I became a Unitarian, and later Buddhism spoke to me (although more as a philosophy than as a religion). Now I have an eclectic spirituality that fits me.

Personally, I don't get hung up on " why. " My spiritual development has felt like it simply evolved based on inquiry, exposure to ideas, and yet, an intrinsic desire to connect to something deeper inside myself (that transcends my logical self, which I think is limited by its very nature).

~ lisa

This post isn't necessarily pertinent to ACT. I am writing it after watching a dialogue between and Sam at a Secular Humanism conference held in Los Angeles this past weekend, and I am wondering if it should form the basis for a blog.

See http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/10106928#utm_campaigne=synclickback & source=http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/wrightharris-debate/ & medium=10106928

Was it the fictional Fox Muldur, in the TV series X-Files, who said " I want to believe " ? He and I have something in common, then, because I, too, want to believe. But belief in what, precisely? In my case, it would be a belief in an all-powerful god who cares for me, and belief in an afterlife -- an afterlife in which existence would be perfect, that perfection being whatever we conceive it to be.

A little history: I came to ACT as a result of being referred to an ACT practitioner by my GP, because I had presented as experiencing depression. Before meeting this psychiatrist, I had not heard of ACT. However, I did have an abiding interest in Buddhist philosophy, and upon reading Russ 's The Happiness Trap -- which was suggested by the psychiatrist, and which I have yet to finish reading -- I saw that ACT had a good fit with Buddhist philosophy.

In the matter of belief in such fantastical things as mentioned above, I am unable to subscribe to such beliefs, chiefly because there is no part of my experience which would lend credence to the existence of either a god or of an afterlife, this in spite of the first seven years of my education having been at the hands of the Catholic church.

Over the years (I am now 60), I have developed the hypothesis that I might have become a believer in the above if certain elements of my experience of life as a young individual had been true. First, although my parents were nominally Catholic, religion was seldom discussed in our home, and my parents rarely ever set foot in a church. I think that, like many of their generation, they sent their children to a Catholic school to be educated in morality. (I now see that as a serious abdication on their part, for not having the wherewithal to undertake such moral education themselves -- but more on that later.) Second, my experience of those seven years of Catholic education were overwhelmingly negative, not only due to those doing the teaching, but also because of the domestic dynamics operating on the home front. My teachers for the first six years of my education were nuns, and almost without exception, these were women who appeared to be miserable and wholly unsuited to the task with which they were charged: the education of young children. I can remember only one woman, a nun named Sister , who seemed to actually like children, and who enjoyed working with them.

In short, I am wondering had my home life and my school experience been predominantly positive, would that positivity have translated into an abiding belief in a god and an afterlife? At this stage of my life I cannot answer that question one way or another. All I can attest to is that I require some sort of evidence before I can believe in anything, evidence that is obvious to everyone and which does not require faith.

I don't disrespect people who have faith; in some ways I envy them. I just don't understand " faith " when used in such a way. I have faith that the plane I'm on will fly without mishap, thanks to the engineers who built them and the pilots who fly them.

Sorry for the ramble. I'm trying to bring cohesion to some vaguely inchoate thoughts. Writing and publishing those thoughts somehow helps me to do that.

Regards,Detlef

October 12, 2010

I personally believe that faith, or spirituality, is quite inportant and I do

envy in some way religeous people. I mean, if you really believe then death

isn't so bad. Also, the world can be extra dark place when it has no meaning

and all that suffering is in vain. I hope that mindfulness will eventually bring

about meaning and spirituality for me.

For those of us who believe that God can a bit hard, remember that without a

wrathful God no one would have left their money in banks and then expect to see

it again. Christianity tamed the the West which brought about civilisation and

industry, because people could invest. Well, this is the view of Carl Jung and

philosophers like Hegal, anyway. It seems pausible.

Kaivey

>

> >

> > This post isn't necessarily pertinent to ACT. I am writing it after

> > watching a dialogue between and Sam at a Secular

> > Humanism conference held in Los Angeles this past weekend, and I am

> > wondering if it should form the basis for a blog.

> >

> > See

> >

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/10106928#utm_campaigne=synclickback & source=http:/\

/whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/wrightharris-debate/ & medium=1010692\

8

> >

> > Was it the fictional Fox Muldur, in the TV series *X-Files*, who said " I

> > want to believe " ? He and I have something in common, then, because I, too,

> > want to believe. But belief in what, precisely? In my case, it would be a

> > belief in an all-powerful god who cares for me, and belief in an afterlife

> > -- an afterlife in which existence would be perfect, that perfection being

> > whatever we conceive it to be.

> >

> > A little history: I came to ACT as a result of being referred to an ACT

> > practitioner by my GP, because I had presented as experiencing depression.

> > Before meeting this psychiatrist, I had not heard of ACT. However, I did

> > have an abiding interest in Buddhist philosophy, and upon reading Russ

> > 's *The Happiness Trap* -- which was suggested by the psychiatrist,

> > and which I have yet to finish reading -- I saw that ACT had a good fit with

> > Buddhist philosophy.

> >

> > In the matter of belief in such fantastical things as mentioned above, I am

> > unable to subscribe to such beliefs, chiefly because there is no part of my

> > experience which would lend credence to the existence of either a god or of

> > an afterlife, this in spite of the first seven years of my education having

> > been at the hands of the Catholic church.

> >

> > Over the years (I am now 60), I have developed the hypothesis that I might

> > have become a believer in the above if certain elements of my experience of

> > life as a young individual had been true. First, although my parents were

> > nominally Catholic, religion was seldom discussed in our home, and my

> > parents rarely ever set foot in a church. I think that, like many of their

> > generation, they sent their children to a Catholic school to be educated in

> > morality. (I now see that as a serious abdication on their part, for not

> > having the wherewithal to undertake such moral education themselves -- but

> > more on that later.) Second, my experience of those seven years of Catholic

> > education were overwhelmingly negative, not only due to those doing the

> > teaching, but also because of the domestic dynamics operating on the home

> > front. My teachers for the first six years of my education were nuns, and

> > almost without exception, these were women who appeared to be miserable and

> > wholly unsuited to the task with which they were charged: the education of

> > young children. I can remember only one woman, a nun named Sister

> > , who seemed to actually like children, and who enjoyed working with

> > them.

> >

> > In short, I am wondering had my home life and my school experience been

> > predominantly positive, would that positivity have translated into an

> > abiding belief in a god and an afterlife? At this stage of my life I cannot

> > answer that question one way or another. All I can attest to is that I

> > require some sort of evidence before I can believe in anything, evidence

> > that is obvious to everyone and which does not require faith.

> >

> > I don't disrespect people who have faith; in some ways I envy them. I just

> > don't understand " faith " when used in such a way. I have faith that the

> > plane I'm on will fly without mishap, thanks to the engineers who built them

> > and the pilots who fly them.

> >

> > Sorry for the ramble. I'm trying to bring cohesion to some vaguely

> > inchoate thoughts. Writing and publishing those thoughts somehow helps me to

> > do that.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Detlef

> >

>

October 12, 2010

Asking about the meaning of life is like asking about the meaning of a cat.

Neither have any referents, they just *are*. Why " life " becomes scary or bleak

with that realisation, but a cat does not, is a mystery to me..

I should be revising really.

Tom

> >

> > >

> > > This post isn't necessarily pertinent to ACT. I am writing it after

> > > watching a dialogue between and Sam at a Secular

> > > Humanism conference held in Los Angeles this past weekend, and I am

> > > wondering if it should form the basis for a blog.

> > >

> > > See

> > >

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/10106928#utm_campaigne=synclickback & source=http:/\

/whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/wrightharris-debate/ & medium=1010692\

8

> > >

> > > Was it the fictional Fox Muldur, in the TV series *X-Files*, who said " I

> > > want to believe " ? He and I have something in common, then, because I, too,

> > > want to believe. But belief in what, precisely? In my case, it would be a

> > > belief in an all-powerful god who cares for me, and belief in an afterlife

> > > -- an afterlife in which existence would be perfect, that perfection being

> > > whatever we conceive it to be.

> > >

> > > A little history: I came to ACT as a result of being referred to an ACT

> > > practitioner by my GP, because I had presented as experiencing depression.

> > > Before meeting this psychiatrist, I had not heard of ACT. However, I did

> > > have an abiding interest in Buddhist philosophy, and upon reading Russ

> > > 's *The Happiness Trap* -- which was suggested by the psychiatrist,

> > > and which I have yet to finish reading -- I saw that ACT had a good fit

with

> > > Buddhist philosophy.

> > >

> > > In the matter of belief in such fantastical things as mentioned above, I

am

> > > unable to subscribe to such beliefs, chiefly because there is no part of

my

> > > experience which would lend credence to the existence of either a god or

of

> > > an afterlife, this in spite of the first seven years of my education

having

> > > been at the hands of the Catholic church.

> > >

> > > Over the years (I am now 60), I have developed the hypothesis that I might

> > > have become a believer in the above if certain elements of my experience

of

> > > life as a young individual had been true. First, although my parents were

> > > nominally Catholic, religion was seldom discussed in our home, and my

> > > parents rarely ever set foot in a church. I think that, like many of their

> > > generation, they sent their children to a Catholic school to be educated

in

> > > morality. (I now see that as a serious abdication on their part, for not

> > > having the wherewithal to undertake such moral education themselves -- but

> > > more on that later.) Second, my experience of those seven years of

Catholic

> > > education were overwhelmingly negative, not only due to those doing the

> > > teaching, but also because of the domestic dynamics operating on the home

> > > front. My teachers for the first six years of my education were nuns, and

> > > almost without exception, these were women who appeared to be miserable

and

> > > wholly unsuited to the task with which they were charged: the education of

> > > young children. I can remember only one woman, a nun named Sister

> > > , who seemed to actually like children, and who enjoyed working

with

> > > them.

> > >

> > > In short, I am wondering had my home life and my school experience been

> > > predominantly positive, would that positivity have translated into an

> > > abiding belief in a god and an afterlife? At this stage of my life I

cannot

> > > answer that question one way or another. All I can attest to is that I

> > > require some sort of evidence before I can believe in anything, evidence

> > > that is obvious to everyone and which does not require faith.

> > >

> > > I don't disrespect people who have faith; in some ways I envy them. I just

> > > don't understand " faith " when used in such a way. I have faith that the

> > > plane I'm on will fly without mishap, thanks to the engineers who built

them

> > > and the pilots who fly them.

> > >

> > > Sorry for the ramble. I'm trying to bring cohesion to some vaguely

> > > inchoate thoughts. Writing and publishing those thoughts somehow helps me

to

> > > do that.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Detlef

> > >

> >

>

October 13, 2010

Tom -- I love this! Pondering the meaning of cat It reminds me of a joke: What is a dyslexic, agnostic insomniac? Someone who stays awake all night pondering the existence of dog. Anyway, this is just a silly post but I've found this discussion to be so interesting. Of course, I don't have any answers. I am coming to accept the fact that I am more of a searcher than a believer. All that is subject to change of course.

Barbara

Asking about the meaning of life is like asking about the meaning of a cat. Neither have any referents, they just *are*. Why " life " becomes scary or bleak with that realisation, but a cat does not, is a mystery to me..

I should be revising really.

Tom

> >

> > >

> > > This post isn't necessarily pertinent to ACT. I am writing it after

> > > watching a dialogue between and Sam at a Secular

> > > Humanism conference held in Los Angeles this past weekend, and I am

> > > wondering if it should form the basis for a blog.

> > >

> > > See

> > > http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/10106928#utm_campaigne=synclickback & source=http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/wrightharris-debate/ & medium=10106928

> > >

> > > Was it the fictional Fox Muldur, in the TV series *X-Files*, who said " I

> > > want to believe " ? He and I have something in common, then, because I, too,

> > > want to believe. But belief in what, precisely? In my case, it would be a

> > > belief in an all-powerful god who cares for me, and belief in an afterlife

> > > -- an afterlife in which existence would be perfect, that perfection being

> > > whatever we conceive it to be.

> > >

> > > A little history: I came to ACT as a result of being referred to an ACT

> > > practitioner by my GP, because I had presented as experiencing depression.

> > > Before meeting this psychiatrist, I had not heard of ACT. However, I did

> > > have an abiding interest in Buddhist philosophy, and upon reading Russ

> > > 's *The Happiness Trap* -- which was suggested by the psychiatrist,

> > > and which I have yet to finish reading -- I saw that ACT had a good fit with

> > > Buddhist philosophy.

> > >

> > > In the matter of belief in such fantastical things as mentioned above, I am

> > > unable to subscribe to such beliefs, chiefly because there is no part of my

> > > experience which would lend credence to the existence of either a god or of

> > > an afterlife, this in spite of the first seven years of my education having

> > > been at the hands of the Catholic church.

> > >

> > > Over the years (I am now 60), I have developed the hypothesis that I might

> > > have become a believer in the above if certain elements of my experience of

> > > life as a young individual had been true. First, although my parents were

> > > nominally Catholic, religion was seldom discussed in our home, and my

> > > parents rarely ever set foot in a church. I think that, like many of their

> > > generation, they sent their children to a Catholic school to be educated in

> > > morality. (I now see that as a serious abdication on their part, for not

> > > having the wherewithal to undertake such moral education themselves -- but

> > > more on that later.) Second, my experience of those seven years of Catholic

> > > education were overwhelmingly negative, not only due to those doing the

> > > teaching, but also because of the domestic dynamics operating on the home

> > > front. My teachers for the first six years of my education were nuns, and

> > > almost without exception, these were women who appeared to be miserable and

> > > wholly unsuited to the task with which they were charged: the education of

> > > young children. I can remember only one woman, a nun named Sister

> > > , who seemed to actually like children, and who enjoyed working with

> > > them.

> > >

> > > In short, I am wondering had my home life and my school experience been

> > > predominantly positive, would that positivity have translated into an

> > > abiding belief in a god and an afterlife? At this stage of my life I cannot

> > > answer that question one way or another. All I can attest to is that I

> > > require some sort of evidence before I can believe in anything, evidence

> > > that is obvious to everyone and which does not require faith.

> > >

> > > I don't disrespect people who have faith; in some ways I envy them. I just

> > > don't understand " faith " when used in such a way. I have faith that the

> > > plane I'm on will fly without mishap, thanks to the engineers who built them

> > > and the pilots who fly them.

> > >

> > > Sorry for the ramble. I'm trying to bring cohesion to some vaguely

> > > inchoate thoughts. Writing and publishing those thoughts somehow helps me to

> > > do that.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Detlef

> > >

> >

>

-- Barbara White, MFTMarriage and Family Therapistbarbarawhitetherapy.com

October 13, 2010

I am right with you!! I was lucky enough to be raised in a loving Christian home

where God and my church were and are an integral part of my being. I find ACT to

be so compatible with my religious beliefs. The God I know is a compassionate,

forgiving God. He forgives me better than I often forgive myself. He gives me

grace to begin again every day. He never said the road would be easy just

because I believe, but He is always with me, guiding me as I journey through the

ups and downs of life. I too appreciate the chance to express my values and I

respect the values of others on the list!!!! Everyone have a day filled with

compassion and acceptance.

> >

> >This post isn't necessarily pertinent to ACT. I am writing it after watching

a

> >dialogue between and Sam at a Secular Humanism

conference

> >held in Los Angeles this past weekend, and I am wondering if it should form

the

> >basis for a blog.

> >>

>

>>Seehttp://www.ustream.tv/recorded/10106928#utm_campaigne=synclickback & source=h\

ttp://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/wrightharris-debate/ & medium=10\

106928

> >>

> >>Was it the fictional Fox Muldur, in the TV series X-Files, who said " I want

to

> >>believe " ? He and I have something in common, then, because I, too, want to

> >>believe. But belief in what, precisely? In my case, it would be a belief in

an

> >>all-powerful god who cares for me, and belief in an afterlife -- an

afterlife in

> >>which existence would be perfect, that perfection being whatever we conceive

it

> >>to be.

> >>

> >>A little history: I came to ACT as a result of being referred to an ACT

> >>practitioner by my GP, because I had presented as experiencing depression.

> >>Before meeting this psychiatrist, I had not heard of ACT. However, I did

have an

> >>abiding interest in Buddhist philosophy, and upon reading Russ 's The

> >>Happiness Trap -- which was suggested by the psychiatrist, and which I have

yet

> >>to finish reading -- I saw that ACT had a good fit with Buddhist philosophy.

> >>

> >>In the matter of belief in such fantastical things as mentioned above, I am

> >>unable to subscribe to such beliefs, chiefly because there is no part of my

> >>experience which would lend credence to the existence of either a god or of

an

> >>afterlife, this in spite of the first seven years of my education having

been at

> >>the hands of the Catholic church.

> >>

> >>Over the years (I am now 60), I have developed the hypothesis that I might

have

> >>become a believer in the above if certain elements of my experience of life

as a

> >>young individual had been true. First, although my parents were nominally

> >>Catholic, religion was seldom discussed in our home, and my parents rarely

ever

> >>set foot in a church. I think that, like many of their generation, they sent

> >>their children to a Catholic school to be educated in morality. (I now see

that

> >>as a serious abdication on their part, for not having the wherewithal to

> >>undertake such moral education themselves -- but more on that later.)

Second, my

> >>experience of those seven years of Catholic education were overwhelmingly

> >>negative, not only due to those doing the teaching, but also because of the

> >>domestic dynamics operating on the home front. My teachers for the first six

> >>years of my education were nuns, and almost without exception, these were

women

> >>who appeared to be miserable and wholly unsuited to the task with which they

> >>were charged: the education of young children. I can remember only one

woman, a

> >>nun named Sister , who seemed to actually like children, and

who

> >>enjoyed working with them.

> >>

> >>In short, I am wondering had my home life and my school experience been

> >>predominantly positive, would that positivity have translated into an

abiding

> >>belief in a god and an afterlife? At this stage of my life I cannot answer

that

> >>question one way or another. All I can attest to is that I require some sort

of

> >>evidence before I can believe in anything, evidence that is obvious to

everyone

> >>and which does not require faith.

> >>

> >>I don't disrespect people who have faith; in some ways I envy them. I just

don't

> >>understand " faith " when used in such a way. I have faith that the plane I'm

on

> >>will fly without mishap, thanks to the engineers who built them and the

pilots

> >>who fly them.

> >>

> >>Sorry for the ramble. I'm trying to bring cohesion to some vaguely inchoate

> >>thoughts. Writing and publishing those thoughts somehow helps me to do that.

> >>

> >>Regards,

> >>

> >>Detlef

> >>

> >

>

October 13, 2010

I don't follow any particular faith, but bought a Christian fridge magnet (!!!!) the other day which read:"trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not rely on your own insight" (Proverbs 3.5)It was a day that I was critically over-analysing everything in my head, and seemed fitting. It is also colourful and looks pretty on my fridge ;0)MarkSubject: Re: I want to believe (a monologue, perhaps dialogue, about reason and belief)To: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Wednesday, 13 October, 2010, 12:10

I am right with you!! I was lucky enough to be raised in a loving Christian home where God and my church were and are an integral part of my being. I find ACT to be so compatible with my religious beliefs. The God I know is a compassionate, forgiving God. He forgives me better than I often forgive myself. He gives me grace to begin again every day. He never said the road would be easy just because I believe, but He is always with me, guiding me as I journey through the ups and downs of life. I too appreciate the chance to express my values and I respect the values of others on the list!!!! Everyone have a day filled with compassion and acceptance.

> >

> >This post isn't necessarily pertinent to ACT. I am writing it after watching a

> >dialogue between and Sam at a Secular Humanism conference

> >held in Los Angeles this past weekend, and I am wondering if it should form the

> >basis for a blog.

> >>

> >>Seehttp://www.ustream.tv/recorded/10106928#utm_campaigne=synclickback & source=http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/wrightharris-debate/ & medium=10106928

> >>

> >>Was it the fictional Fox Muldur, in the TV series X-Files, who said "I want to

> >>believe"? He and I have something in common, then, because I, too, want to

> >>believe. But belief in what, precisely? In my case, it would be a belief in an

> >>all-powerful god who cares for me, and belief in an afterlife -- an afterlife in

> >>which existence would be perfect, that perfection being whatever we conceive it

> >>to be.

> >>

> >>A little history: I came to ACT as a result of being referred to an ACT

> >>practitioner by my GP, because I had presented as experiencing depression.

> >>Before meeting this psychiatrist, I had not heard of ACT. However, I did have an

> >>abiding interest in Buddhist philosophy, and upon reading Russ 's The

> >>Happiness Trap -- which was suggested by the psychiatrist, and which I have yet

> >>to finish reading -- I saw that ACT had a good fit with Buddhist philosophy.

> >>

> >>In the matter of belief in such fantastical things as mentioned above, I am

> >>unable to subscribe to such beliefs, chiefly because there is no part of my

> >>experience which would lend credence to the existence of either a god or of an

> >>afterlife, this in spite of the first seven years of my education having been at

> >>the hands of the Catholic church.

> >>

> >>Over the years (I am now 60), I have developed the hypothesis that I might have

> >>become a believer in the above if certain elements of my experience of life as a

> >>young individual had been true. First, although my parents were nominally

> >>Catholic, religion was seldom discussed in our home, and my parents rarely ever

> >>set foot in a church. I think that, like many of their generation, they sent

> >>their children to a Catholic school to be educated in morality. (I now see that

> >>as a serious abdication on their part, for not having the wherewithal to

> >>undertake such moral education themselves -- but more on that later.) Second, my

> >>experience of those seven years of Catholic education were overwhelmingly

> >>negative, not only due to those doing the teaching, but also because of the

> >>domestic dynamics operating on the home front. My teachers for the first six

> >>years of my education were nuns, and almost without exception, these were women

> >>who appeared to be miserable and wholly unsuited to the task with which they

> >>were charged: the education of young children. I can remember only one woman, a

> >>nun named Sister , who seemed to actually like children, and who

> >>enjoyed working with them.

> >>

> >>In short, I am wondering had my home life and my school experience been

> >>predominantly positive, would that positivity have translated into an abiding

> >>belief in a god and an afterlife? At this stage of my life I cannot answer that

> >>question one way or another. All I can attest to is that I require some sort of

> >>evidence before I can believe in anything, evidence that is obvious to everyone

> >>and which does not require faith.

> >>

> >>I don't disrespect people who have faith; in some ways I envy them. I just don't

> >>understand "faith" when used in such a way. I have faith that the plane I'm on

> >>will fly without mishap, thanks to the engineers who built them and the pilots

> >>who fly them.

> >>

> >>Sorry for the ramble. I'm trying to bring cohesion to some vaguely inchoate

> >>thoughts. Writing and publishing those thoughts somehow helps me to do that.

> >>

> >>Regards,

> >>

> >>Detlef

> >>

> >

>

October 13, 2010

I run into this when I am working with substance problems and people trying to find their way inside 12-step. I say just add an "o" to god and turn your will and your life over to that. god + o = good. I say, hey, what's an "o" among friends.For me, turning my life over to my values seems like a good plan.more stuff from the substance abuse book that I really need to get finished.peace from an atheist who prays, (Dear good, I need some help and guidance about now:-)k

G. 205 Peabody BuildingPsychology DepartmentUniversity of MississippiOxford, MS 38677ph: fax: academic homepage:www.olemiss.edu/working/kwilson/kwilson.htmalso check outwww.onelifellc.comwww.mindfulnessfortwo.comwww.facebook.com/kellygwilsonwww.tastybehaviorism.comwww.abnormalwootwoot.com