Guest guest Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 In a message dated 5/26/04 5:01:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dwatkins5@... writes: What evidence is there for an inevitable historical development of the collective psyche? Jung (who appears to subscribe to the " great man " understanding of history) does not describe it thus, to my knowledge. One gets the impression from Jung that it could have gone otherwise. Here, Dan, u are uninformed. Jung subscribed to the evolution of consciousness through the Great Ages of the Platonic Year [Precession of the Equinoxes}> Kirsch told me of a day wh the gang went across the lake to a meeting. He spread a huge piece of paper on the table n traced the evolution, corr mythologies/religions - unfortunately no one took verbatim notes. Kirsch told me this as I was writing my second bk JUNGIAN SYNCHRONICITY IN THE ASTROLOGICAL SIGNS AND AGES, so I was greatly encouraged. There is indeed a 'menu' to the evolution of consc [read my bk for a survey]. As for medieval psychol security, Jung was describ a state not unlike the fundamentalists in religions today. Luther was the harbinger not only of Protestantism but depth psychol bec individuals had to relate now to their own inner world causing great angst! This was tantamount to withdrawing the extant exterior symbolic projections that were in churches to the plain unadorned ones. The exterior archetypes now had to be found w/in the psyche. No small task! Jung was not extolling the Mid Ages merely describing the way things were n the need to move on. There is no stopping an Age - it is an astronomical phenomenon. Either u get dragged into it kicking n screaming or u go w/the flow. Peopl who are sick of hearing ab the New Age of Aquarius need to realize that we have circa 2000 years of it ahead of us! The mounting international clashes today are the result of literalism n certainties. The " only Way " that is offered by the diff avatars needs to be seen as the SAME only way [process! verb!] fr the ego to the Self [divine guest, atman]. They are killing each other n burning houses of worship under the illusion of if my guy is right yrs must be wrong! This is tragic! The only solution n task of next eon is to realize that the Light that is in me is the SAME light in evbody else, so wh I do to u, I am doing to myself. So if u love 'God' u love each other or vice versa. Simple. In astrol the Sun in ev chart is the SAME SUN!! Anyhoo, my love ao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 IonaDove@... wrote: > I > Here, Dan, u are uninformed. Jung subscribed to the evolution of > consciousness through the Great Ages of the Platonic Year [Precession of the Equinoxes}> > Kirsch told me of a day wh the gang went across the lake to a meeting. He > spread a huge piece of paper on the table n traced the evolution, corr > mythologies/religions - unfortunately no one took verbatim notes. Kirsch told me > this as I was writing my second bk JUNGIAN SYNCHRONICITY IN THE ASTROLOGICAL > SIGNS AND AGES, so I was greatly encouraged. There is indeed a 'menu' to the > evolution of consc [read my bk for a survey]. Thanks for your reply. I will take your word for it, and look again. It distresses me greatly to think of Jung as an historicist, and it also distresses me somewhat to be compelled to be reactionary against it. What you say here leads me to a greater understanding of the opinion of Jung held by some of my non-Jungian acquaintances, and also to the political views of Jungians. What shall we make of this: " At all events, it is highly probable that we are heading for an extremely critical time, which all of us may perhaps not experience - the peak of it, that is - because we are the end of the Pisces aeon and can certainly expect that with the transition to the new aeon of Aquarius, approximately 150-200 years from now, our distant descendants will experience all sorts of things. This atom bomb business, for instance, is terribly characteristic of Uranos, the Lord of unpredictable events. " CGJ, CG Jung Speaking, p. 375. It would seem that the change to be expected is not necessarily good change - not necessarily positive, " evolutionary " change. Jung promises change, but he does not promise harmony and understanding, sympathy and trust abounding. The changes will be " unpredictable. " It seems to me that it would still be well to keep the powder dry. > > > As for medieval psychol security, Jung was describ a state not unlike the > fundamentalists in religions today. I agree entirely. This is, imo, what is right about fundamentalism. It speaks to the reason why I believe that, if the American regime is to be preserved, it will be preserved in large measure as a result of American Christian fundamentalism. And if the cost is a few crusades, so be it. > Luther was the harbinger not only of > Protestantism but depth psychol bec individuals had to relate now to their own inner > world causing great angst! This was tantamount to withdrawing the extant > exterior symbolic projections that were in churches to the plain unadorned ones. > The exterior archetypes now had to be found w/in the psyche. No small task! Understood. No small task, and - again according to Jung - a task whose accomplishment has cost the many a lot, to the advantage of the few. Not for everyone, surely - which means not suitable for a widely public teaching, or for a political myth. I remind everyone again that Jung would send certain patients back to church. Jung on Protestantism: " It is because the Jews and the Protestants - those mitigated Jews - have no pictures of God, because they are not allowed to represent the archetypes, that they top the statistics for neurosis. " CGJ, _CG Jung Speaking_, p. 271 God, I love that. That says it all, as succinctly as possible. Another, somewhat more lengthy: " These mighty projections enable the Catholic to experience large tracts of his collective unconscious in tangible reality. He has no need to go in search of superior power, revelation, or something that would link him with the eternal and the timeless. These are always present and available for him: there, in the Holy of Holies on every altar, dwells the presence of God. It is the Protestant and the Jew who have to seek, the one because he has, in a manner of speaking, destroyed the earthly body of the Deity, the other because he can never find it. For both of them the archetypes, which to the Catholic world have become a visible and living reality, lie in the unconscious. " CGJ, CW 8, 338 " These mighty projections " - wonderful. A mighty fortress is our God (yes, I know that Luther wrote it). > > > Jung was not extolling the Mid Ages merely describing the way things were n > the need to move on. I think that this claim is more questionable. Jung describes the medieval period as a time and place where God was in his heaven and all was right with the world, as it were, while he describes the modern world as " a madhouse. " This is not simple, dispassionate description. Jung uses feeling-laden, valuing language in describing the two " worlds, " clearly to the advantage of the medieval. We have lost something, per Jung. We've had five hundred years of modernity, and things are getting worse. If, as you say, Jung thought that human beings inevitably and naturally evolve forward historically in a positive direction, then it is hard to account for things getting on the whole worse for some centuries - *unless* we are looking at a two-steps-forward-one-step-back sort of phenomenon, where at present we happen to be living through the back step. It may be so. But, to repeat, Jung does not appear to promise a bright future. > There is no stopping an Age - it is an astronomical > phenomenon. Either u get dragged into it kicking n screaming or u go w/the flow. If you are right, then it may be incumbent upon some of us to go down flags flying and guns blazing :-). There are more ignoble ways to go. > > Peopl who are sick of hearing ab the New Age of Aquarius need to realize that we > have circa 2000 years of it ahead of us! > > The mounting international clashes today are the result of literalism n > certainties. Is it indeed as simple as that? Or are the Thrasymachus's and Alcibaides's and s of the world able to use literalism - fundamentalism, if you like - to their purposes? Because that is arguably a more difficult problem. > The " only Way " that is offered by the diff avatars needs to be seen as > the SAME only way [process! verb!] fr the ego to the Self [divine guest, > atman]. They are killing each other n burning houses of worship under the illusion > of if my guy is right yrs must be wrong! This is tragic! Naturally. Politics is tragic. Most of human life is tragic. It was ever thus. Only the philosopher's life is truly not tragic, but the rest of us can at least keep our sense of humor and irony, and try to avoid the spirit of gravity. > > > The only solution n task of next eon is to realize that the Light that is in > me is the SAME light in evbody else, so wh I do to u, I am doing to myself. So > if u love 'God' u love each other or vice versa. > > Simple. In astrol the Sun in ev chart is the SAME SUN!! > > Anyhoo, my love Back atcha. Regards, Dan > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2004 Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 Dear Alice, at 10:17 PM 27/05/04, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/26/04 5:01:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >dwatkins5@... writes: >What evidence is there for an inevitable historical development of the >collective psyche? Jung (who appears to subscribe to the " great man " >understanding of history) does not describe it thus, to my knowledge. One >gets the impression from Jung that it could have gone otherwise. >Here, Dan, u are uninformed. Jung subscribed to the evolution of >consciousness through the Great Ages of the Platonic Year [Precession of >the Equinoxes}> Thus it is not the " evolution " of the psyche - which is a human time centred idea - but the " revolution " of the psyche. Particularly visible in its projections onto the outer world - which is after all, what astrological science really is. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2004 Report Share Posted May 29, 2004 >>Thus it is not the " evolution " of the psyche - which is a human time centred idea - but the " revolution " of the psyche. Particularly visible in its projections onto the outer world - which is after all, what astrological science really is. .>> And thus reflects the psyche. Interesting. x's We, as a species, the conscious eyes and ears of a planet, have long ago embedded a projection of our psyche within those stars. Onto those changing relationships of infinite small fires, ever-moving, we've wished our deepest wishes, prayed our most cherished and desperate hopes. Quite a map, this that we carry off to our dreams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2004 Report Share Posted May 29, 2004 Dear , Do you think that this " revolution " and its content are historically determined? That is, is it an inevitable development? Regards, Dan G Heyward wrote: >Dear Alice, at 10:17 PM 27/05/04, you wrote: > > >>In a message dated 5/26/04 5:01:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >>dwatkins5@... writes: >>What evidence is there for an inevitable historical development of the >>collective psyche? Jung (who appears to subscribe to the " great man " >>understanding of history) does not describe it thus, to my knowledge. One >>gets the impression from Jung that it could have gone otherwise. >>Here, Dan, u are uninformed. Jung subscribed to the evolution of >>consciousness through the Great Ages of the Platonic Year [Precession of >>the Equinoxes}> >> >> > >Thus it is not the " evolution " of the psyche - which is a human time >centred idea - but the " revolution " of the psyche. Particularly visible in >its projections onto the outer world - which is after all, what >astrological science really is. > >. > > > > > " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. " > >H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2004 Report Share Posted May 29, 2004 Dear , at 11:24 PM 29/05/04, you wrote: >Dear , > >Do you think that this " revolution " and its content are historically >determined? That is, is it an inevitable development? Do you want the book, or the quick answer? :-) (The book details the relationship between the psyche and the outer world of appearance and shows how the results of human thinking coincide with projections from the unconscious. Jung already did most of this work, but left out some of the most important bits, IMO.) The quick answer is NO. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 G Heyward wrote: >Dear , at 11:24 PM 29/05/04, you wrote: > > >>Dear , >> >>Do you think that this " revolution " and its content are historically >>determined? That is, is it an inevitable development? >> >> > >Do you want the book, or the quick answer? :-) > >(The book details the relationship between the psyche and the outer world >of appearance and shows how the results of human thinking coincide with >projections from the unconscious. > This is, it seems to me, what Jaynes leaves ou. Now, if Jaynes does mean what he actually does say, that primitive man lived a life like a contemporary schizophrenic - then his thesis is untenable. If he means something else, then maybe it is merely speculative. > Jung already did most of this work, but >left out some of the most important bits, IMO.) > >The quick answer is NO. > >. > > Regards, Dan > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 If you're interested in relating this to Jung, see letter to [ HLPhilp, Jung and the Problem of Evil pp 239-50 (25 sept 1957.)] reprinted in Psychology and Religion. see especially para 1656 - 1665 re attitude to medieval: para 45 in Sigmund Freud in his Historical Setting in The Spirit in Man, Art, and Literature CW 15 and so it goes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 thanks, will do. Regards, Dan Ms. Grundy wrote: > > > >If you're interested in relating this to Jung, see letter to > [ HLPhilp, Jung and the Problem of Evil pp 239-50 (25 sept >1957.)] reprinted in Psychology and Religion. see especially para >1656 - 1665 > >re attitude to medieval: > >para 45 in Sigmund Freud in his Historical Setting >in The Spirit in Man, Art, and Literature CW 15 > >and so it goes... > > > > > > > > " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. " > >H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 Dear Greg, at 12:42 AM 31/05/04, you wrote: >Such as?.... Not looking for a dissertation, just a >few ideas to back up this rather broad, assertion. >Please enlighten further. I believe the onus here would be far more on the side of those who would have to show how ANY process within the historical/conscious egos of individuals could effect change within the fixed structure of the collective unconscious as it re-presents itself within the bio/psychic dynamics of each newly born individual. Far from being a " broad assertion " my point was made well within any scientific/philosophy which takes both logic and repeatable factual data to be the prime requirements for understanding the cosmos or any metaphysic implied within its cognition as a psychic image. You cannot argue with metaphysical " belief " . I don't intend to. But that was not the point of the question. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 Another point: History - the process of collective consciousness - merely reinforces and specialises certain adaptations of the psyche against and within the total archaic contents of the unconscious. More, it reinforces and specialises particular representations of the archaic dynamics. Thus there is no case to offer for an " evolving unconscious process " as the basic evolutionary dynamics of consciousness are sufficient to describe all such process. Remove history - ie, the process of maintaining the specialisation of conscious adaptations via language and information storage and you are back to the " five million year old man " . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 Dear Greg, at 12:10 PM 1/06/04, you wrote: >I appreciate your responses to my question. >Unfortunately, I have little time to carry on a >lengthy dialog on this fascinating subject you have >raised. This is just a particularly busy time for me. > >However, as to your point above, I find your equating >history with collective " consciousness " above most >interesting. It seems to me, however, that many (if >not most) of " history " is the recording of events >resulting mankind's UNCONCSIOUS projections, rather >than any a collection of responsible, conscious >choices. But this is not the point. OF course most of what mankind does is driven by unconscious forces, this hardly needs to be said. What is important here is the extraordinary notion that in reacting to such forces either consciously or not (such reaction being the content of history and therefore the content of the collective consciousness) that such reaction brings about a change in the fundamental structure of the archetypes or if you wish to be more concrete, the genetic structure of the race. To my knowledge the only forces which can alter genetic structure are pathological physical forces which INCLUDE those of natural selection, whether such natural selection be brought about by natural or historical forces. Even so the structure of the genome does not change, merely the particular aspects selected against. The archaic patterning of the neural and physical structure remains, only the subtle differences of conscious adaptive attributes might alter a little. Even so, such " selective breeding " albeit done unconsciously via the ethical and moral mechanisms of society, seems to have had little effect upon the race except for some very general surface differences in aptitudes and primary functions visible between racial groups, and I suspect most of these could be put down to cultural commonality, ie, a shared collective conscious history. At root, one would expect to see a considerable difference in the archaic nervous patterning and adaptive abilities between the aborigine and the cultured european as their historical breeding and cultural subjectivities have been virtual polar opposites since time immemorial. There is none. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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