Re: sacrifices and meaning in war

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/26/2004 5:11:39 PM Central Daylight Time,

museredux@... writes:

>Wait. Wait... what nations are warring? " War on Terrorism. " I can't

>find it on the map... Is this a tribal thing?

Yup. That keeps it pretty nebulous and allows " us " to go after " them "

wherever we think " they " might be and makes " us " " justified, " doesn't it?

Here's

something I just read about that:

" Intentions, of course, are always good. The worse the fight, the higher its

justification. " Justified " violence is the worst. Unjustified violence bursts

out of a bad character or bad feelings, but it doesn't go very far. But when

people feel justified in the use of violence, it becomes systematic and leads

to all the horrors of history. " - Lanza del Vasto (1901-1981) was a poet,

Christian mystic, and nonviolent activist.

Source: Fellowship Magazine, September 1975.

Namasté

Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§

There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us,

it doesn't behoove any of us to speak evil of the rest of us.

-- Edgar Cayce

[Guest guest]

Wait. Wait... what nations are warring? " War on Terrorism. " I can't

find it on the map... Is this a tribal thing?

[Guest guest]

You mean that " Terrorism " is not a country on your the version of the world

atlas you have??!!

Artemis

Re: sacrifices and meaning in war

>

> Wait. Wait... what nations are warring? " War on Terrorism. " I can't

> find it on the map... Is this a tribal thing?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Required reading, Artimus.

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/cold_turkey/

[Guest guest]

,

I don't follow your logic:

" You have to believe the sacrifice has

meaning, or it becomes impossible to keep going... why

not give in to the Nazis if there is no rainbow to

look forward to after the storm? "

Sacrifice always has meaning....to the person who does it. There is no such

thing as a meaningless sacrifice.

And what has giving in to the Nazis to do with it?

Giving in was never an option. Being devoured was. We actually do do things

because they are right, not because there may be a rainbow.

Self defense is also an instinct. You worry about that moment. The reasoning ,

thr lofty reason for the war does not make men sacrifice.

They are there to stop what they see an an evil right there and personal.

My point was that we make up mottos to give us a lift and we actually end up

believing them. Human nature does not change, and wars we really know ,inside

ourselves will never disappear. To inflate the reason for action and the people

who committed them is wishful thinking.

We do what we do because we must. It is the politicians who stay home

comfortably and mouth lofty goals...The poor G.I. just does what he has to do.If

he ends up being heroic ,that was a snap decision usually. In the end we fight

to defend our country and ourselves...not to make the world safe for

democracy.It is later, we look back and defend our actions about why. At the

time, the soldier protects his buddies and himself from an enemy whom he hates

at that moment.

The World Wars were a fight to the death, not something one decides rationally

to engage in and then rationally decides to get out of.

War is a " clear and present danger " and the next century is not at issue.

Personal survival and the survival of all we love, is.

All of life can be seen as a bloody link in a bloody chain, and many do fall

into despair. That in itself is not just a problem with wars.

Toni

sacrifices and meaning in war

>>Have you ever read Tuchman? The " A Distant

Mirror " subtitled " the Calamitous Century " especially

? if you have you will find the 14th Century about to

collapse in on itself. Ferocious

fighting (the Crusades)spiritual agony, nature

rampaging,the works.<<

--So when it's all over, we can look forward to a

bright, glorious repeat of the FIFTEENTH century?

>>Our big mistake was to think we were " fighting

the war to end all wars " in 1918, " Making the world

safe for democracy " in 1941... and with the beginning

of the United nations, we fantasized wars will cease.

Pure unadulterated hubris.<<

--I'm not sure the people who fought in those wars

could have kept fighting if they didn't believe in an

end to war. If they had thought " this is just one

bloody link in an infinite bloody chain " they'd have

shot themselves. You have to believe the sacrifice has

meaning, or it becomes impossible to keep going... why

not give in to the Nazis if there is no rainbow to

look forward to after the storm? Given what those who

died had to hope for in order to prevent despair, I

think the living owe it to them, to fight in little

ways at least for a decent future. i managed to avoid

the draft, and will probably never have to fight in a

war. I'll do what I can to show appreciation for that

fact, and to prevent future wars.