Re: artifically induced numinous experiences

[Guest guest]

Also known in Ancient Greece as incubation. There a person wld sleep in a

temple n await a significant dream experience. Well documented/

N wh about shamans? n sweat lodge experiences?

interesting to contemplate.

love

ao

Observe coll uniting emotionally [at least for me] D-Day rituals n

RR/Gorbachov achiev end of Sov Union w/out a shot being fired. Leading by

example NOT by

force!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/6/2004 12:14:54 PM Central Daylight Time,

IonaDove@... writes:

>N wh about shamans?

As a last experiential module in this course I'm expecting to be taking some

shamanic " trips. " I'll let you know. *S*

And as far as artificially induced numinous experiences, I agree that they're

still numinous. The only caveat I would hold toward them is if one is not

properly prepared to take such a " trip " it could certainly be dangerous if not

disastrous.

Namasté

Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§

Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.

~mrantho

Minds are like parachutes; they only function when open. - Sir Dewar

A closed mind is a good thing to lose.

Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

- Albert Einstein

It is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak the truth and expose lies.

- Noam Chomsky

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

>

> The trigger for the experience does not negate the

> meaning of the experience, it only tunes the brain to

> the right chemical frequency, the way prayer,

> meditation or vigil can. There's a purism that says

> " if it's artificially induced, it's meaningless " but

> that's no different from saying " if it's religiously

> induced, it's meaningless " . Either way, the person

> actually experiencing it will disagree.

>

>

Last year in Amsterdam I smoked a joint and then wrote a ramble about

alchemy in my notebook, and my analyst said that the unconscious can speak

just as well from a brown coffee shop as anywhere else! (And no, Dan, she

isn't an ageing hippie).

fa

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/6/2004 3:26:16 PM Central Daylight Time,

omagramps410@... writes:

>While your at it, why not a little marijuana? If you do, I hope it turns out

well.

Hi Toni,

I suppose it might help but the one time I tried it, I didn't inhale, honest!

ROFL I was having a nice party at my house and one of the GIs I worked with

decided to crash it and he brought some with him. He offered me a toke (is

that the right term?) and I wasn't too sure about it but I decided, " Why not? "

It was the early 70s after all. Anyway, nada, nil, zilch. Shortly after that

he went home, disappointed, I think, that the party wasn't really to his

liking.

Then my sister gave me as a gift for Christmas one year (or was it for my

birthday?) a lovely antique beaded bag and guess what was in it? And I never

tried it. Many years later, the beading thread had rotted and the beads were

falling off and the stuff in the bag was so old I figured it would burn with a

flame rather than smoke! So, there went that chance, too. LOL

>I was thinking of fantasying and manufacturing one own numinous experience.

My feeling >was /is that what comes from the unconscious cannot be mimicked by

the conscious

>alone.

I've done this, too, as an exercise in active imagination. Boy, was it

interesting.

But my most memorable numinous experience wasn't deliberate and it wasn't

expected and it wasn't during any sort of activity where you'd expect it to

happen (much like the experiences and Bucke write about).

It

was at a horse show in the middle of the day in the middle of a hot Texas

summer in 1972. Now, *that* was an experience to remember! I tried to " find

it "

again for the next 20 years but nothing like it ever happened. I didn't have

the knowledge or awareness or whatever it took to know what happened but I

knew something very significant had occurred. It was interesting, too, that I s

hared it with my horse.

Anyway, the shamanic journeying is supposed to come about as a result of

drumming and that sort of thing to induce an altered state. We'll see what

happens. I'm looking forward to it but before that I have some other things to

do,

like meditations, guided imagery, etc., to work up to it, I guess. The shaman

journey is the last experience to work with.

If anything exciting happens I'll let y'all know.

Namasté

Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§

Vision without action is a daydream.

Action without vision is a nightmare.

[Guest guest]

,

As you explain it below, I agree . I did not think of it that way, but thought

you meant that one can artificially " make " an experience, and what it says

through fantasy or any subjective means, and then claim a numinous experience.

Toni

artifically induced numinous experiences

>>And my definition does also not include the idea

that brought up....that numinous

experiences can be artificially induced.<<

--Keep in mind, there's a tradition going back to the

Bible and beyond, of prophets using food and sleep

deprivation to reach altered states. People often have

numinous experiences while sleep deprived, under

emotional stress or in moments of deep physical

relaxation. All " artificial " in the same sense that a

drug is artificial.

The trigger for the experience does not negate the

meaning of the experience, it only tunes the brain to

the right chemical frequency, the way prayer,

meditation or vigil can. There's a purism that says

" if it's artificially induced, it's meaningless " but

that's no different from saying " if it's religiously

induced, it's meaningless " . Either way, the person

actually experiencing it will disagree.

__________________________________

[Guest guest]

Dear f,

I always wished I had been around when all that LSD experimentation( Ram Dass

and others at Harvard ) went on. A quick way to find G-d,(?) I noticed from the

results published. No more striving to find one's meaning. its all there in a

second. But of course, there were bad trips too...so maybe its better, I commit

to the hard way

By the way I tried a joint when my grown kids were smoking up in the mountains

where no one could see. After 2 puffs I got a terrific migraine and went to bed.

So far for personal experimentation on my part! ( I think the statute of

limitations will keep me out of jail, so no snitching anyone.

Will I get thrown out of here for 2 puffs of a joint at age 69?(then)

I just had to find out as I did with too much alcohol at 18.I wanted to know

what " drunk " meant and was sick in my college dorm for 3 days. Some of us were

just programmed to be straight, I guess.

much love,

Toni

Re: artifically induced numinous experiences

Dear ,

>

> The trigger for the experience does not negate the

> meaning of the experience, it only tunes the brain to

> the right chemical frequency, the way prayer,

> meditation or vigil can. There's a purism that says

> " if it's artificially induced, it's meaningless " but

> that's no different from saying " if it's religiously

> induced, it's meaningless " . Either way, the person

> actually experiencing it will disagree.

>

>

Last year in Amsterdam I smoked a joint and then wrote a ramble about

alchemy in my notebook, and my analyst said that the unconscious can speak

just as well from a brown coffee shop as anywhere else! (And no, Dan, she

isn't an ageing hippie).

fa

[Guest guest]

Dear Sam,

While your at it, why not a little marijuana? If you do, I hope it turns out

well. My migraine was awful.

To everyone, as I told .... " artificially induced " never crossed my mind

as referring drugs.

I was too early for the 60's generation, and I didn't know any shamans. I

should have thought of it, but in never crossed my mind, although I knew about

the 70's experiments.

I was thinking of fantasying and manufacturing one own numinous experience. My

feeling was /is that what comes from the unconscious cannot be mimicked by the

conscious alone.

Re: artifically induced numinous experiences

In a message dated 6/6/2004 12:14:54 PM Central Daylight Time,

IonaDove@... writes:

>N wh about shamans?

As a last experiential module in this course I'm expecting to be taking some

shamanic " trips. " I'll let you know. *S*

And as far as artificially induced numinous experiences, I agree that they're

still numinous. The only caveat I would hold toward them is if one is not

properly prepared to take such a " trip " it could certainly be dangerous if not

disastrous.

Namasté

Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§

[Guest guest]

Remember what Jung wrote about Huxley and experimenting with drugs. We deal with

unconscious content as it presents itself. No need to troll (id that the right

word? Not much of a fisherman) for it. But a glimpse of the uc, a chance for the

inferior fx to spread its wings? If it teaches you something... can't be too

bad. Part of religious rituals since before memory began.

[Guest guest]

Well yes, all those days of what not. They didn't make me lose myself, ever. And

what they taught never left. I've had general anesthesia 13 times, and some very

major surgeries and illnesses. (There I was at 23 in town Hospital where

they let my colon rupture... long story. But I was the zebra they didn't look

for when they heard horse-hoofs.) I also taught prepared childbirth and had 4

large kids, no drugs. Trance is easy. And while I'm not my body, I'm also never

not my head, if that makes sense. I'm an INF, but only strongly N: the other

factors split pretty evenly. Have no idea what this means, but... one reason I

like to write fiction is that S is there. The day to day -- god is always there

in everything. IS everything. Temple is everywhere.

[Guest guest]

Dear Eve,

I might agree with you if I had a taste of some drug. Unfortunately, it is

illegal in this country and much as I would like to advance to " profound

visions " I can't do it by psychedelic

drugs.

Then I could run to India and follow a guru into the wild as did Ram Dass. I

used to have daydreams about that since I greatly admire him.Unfortunately,

realism always tore up those dreams...besides I would have been scared to death

to move to India, and what would I have done with a husband and 4 children??

At one time (I seriously considered a convent, but no drugs there just

discipline and quiet)

Oh well, color me just a plain ordinary mortal who must achieve whatever

enlightenment is possible in situ.

( actually I had a first cousin whose husband decided to flee to India after

leaving his wife and 2 children. He came back a very strange man, no longer able

to cope with normal married life and fatherhood.But he did sit in the basement

on an oriental rug with candles and the picture of his guru, all day. My cousin

found it necessary to divorce him)

We human beings have to weigh our choices carefully.

Unfortunately (??) I will have to try it without the use of drugs, but to be

truthful, I would sure love a short cut.

I do wish I had had such an adventure,sometimes, but all our lives are made up

of choices, and I never had even heard about LSD until my path had been

set.Alpert had long since turned into Ram Dass when I finally read about his

experiments and Leary at Harvard.

You agree with Phoebe that "

" Phoebe is right. You have to do something to shake yourself out of the

ordinary world. "

After a good look at your responsibilities and obligations, only, I would add.

It is possible to shake oneself out of the ordinary with practices that do not

disrupt anything or anyone.Hard but possible.

Just my thoughts on the subject, and some wishful regret that I could never even

experiment.

Toni

From: Eve Neuhaus

To: JUNG-FIRE

Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 7:24 PM

Subject: Re: artifically induced numinous experiences

I should weigh in on this one, considering my " heritage. " My guru, who

arrived on my doorstep in just the way such teachers are suppose to

arrive one day in the 1970's, carried two lineages, the same kriya line

that Yogananda comes from, and the other, a Shaivite Naga line. The

Nagas are the naked dreadlocked sanyasins who wander around India,

often gathering around a fire to share bhang and to smoke hash. Ganesh

Baba was in his 80's when I met him, a very accomplished yogi, head of

his order, and a prodigious consumer of psychedelics of all kinds.

I have no qualms about crediting the most profound mystical experiences

I ever had to LSD and other entheogenics. Living with Baba over a

period of several years was quite an experience!

Phoebe is right. You have to do something to shake yourself out of the

ordinary world.

But Baba always said, " Once a psychedelic, always a psychedelic " - once

is enough.

Eve