Guest guest Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 In a message dated 2/28/04 9:26:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, omagramps410@... writes: I could not, since I have first to " redeem " my own self as much as I can. Dear Toni - we are confusing words! This was Jung's pt - in redeeming yrself u are helping others collectively. Hence, the rose growing out of the cross] As my Teacher used to say: Eat off yr own plate! Jesus pointed this out wh he warned ag seeing the mote in the other's eye n not the beam in our own. Wh Jung was protesting - [o somebody reprint that letter!] was the notion that all humanity had to do was to project all its sins onto one man n walk away free. J felt that we shld look upon the story as a paradigm/model for our suff our own karma [complexes]. The esoteric interpretation is true for all time out of time.Wh is the message of THE JESUS MYSTERIES..... What is disturbing ab fundamentalists of ALL religions is 1] they take evthing literally, not allowing a symbolicinterpret to lead people to deeper understanding; n 2] they think they are RIGHT n evbody else wrong n therefore in need of putting to rights [often death! thruout history.} Contrast the American fundy belief in their own salvation w/Buddhist vow of the bodhisattva to be willing to return ag n ag until the last sentient being comes to enlightenment! An extreme case: the Inquisition, where peolple were to be saved fr the devil by being tortured n the Inquisitors were so busy w/their auto da fe, enantiodromia set in, i.e. the 'devil' walked into them instead! We can see this clearly thru the distance of time but what about today??? Trying to be too good can be bad for the psyche bec the shadow denied gets immed proj onto others. This is why it is very prudent to be constantly aware of how little we know n above all not be righteous! We need to have compassion for 'sinners' bec karma [cause n effect] will catch up w/em eventually. I now at the end of my life can see this quite clearly in my own case! I was blessed by meeting my teacher so early n in Jung at a perilous juncture in my life. I paid n paid, wept n wept, but was blessed in knowing there was a purpose behind my suffering. The only credit I can take is that I never gave up n learned not to play the blame game. To understand, is to forgive. Two of the worst traps in life are blaming n the words 'if only.......' Some of u deem me wise - hah! if only......!! wh is why I sign myself yet again Silly Old Woman [ at least I am conscious of THAT!] :] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Dear Alice, you wrote: > > Wh Jung was protesting - [o somebody reprint that letter!] was the notion > that all humanity had to do was to project all its sins onto one man n walk away > free. J felt that we shld look upon the story as a paradigm/model for our suff > our own karma [complexes]. I'm not sure which letter you are talking about - if you can give me the volume and page reference I will try to send it later tonight. love, fa PS My initial training dream featured you as the Wise Old Woman, so there!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Dear Alice, yes, yes and yes. Like Jung, and you, I cannot project my sins on everyone, or anyone else. But even had I remained within Holy Mother Church, I wouldn't have been able to do that. That is a fundy trait, when " being saved " means no repentance necessary once that is done, since someone else pays for your sins. Self righteousness is a problem, in my mind for people who just naturally do the right thing. They cannot understand why everyone doesn't. I used to give Ray and our other best friend lectures about it all the time, by telling them some of us have a harder time than they both did, and it really is self-righteousness which is their greatest temptation. Never had to worry about it myself. I always knew the sinner I was since it seemed so glaring to me.( and obviously I thought to people around me) During my years of prominence within our group, the temptation was there, but it got knocked out in a hurry by others. I am a firm believer in Karma, the laws of cause and effect, and never did manage to blame others for my shortfallings once I was an adult. I am of the military school which when wrong says " no excuses sir " I rather guess, from previous discussion with you that this was for my benefit as well as for all.. Trying to be too good can be bad for the psyche bec the shadow denied gets immed proj onto others. This is why it is very prudent to be constantly aware of how little we know n above all not be righteous! " I remember my spiritual director laughing at me, and saying; " you actually believe you are supposed to be perfect? " (40 years ago to an erudite Jesuit,) I answered, confused, and said 'of course, that is what is expected.' It didn't work, and finally after many years, I decided being whole, not perfect was what I was supposed to be. I was always in those days reacting to others opinion of who I should be. as well as my own scrupulosity. My spiritual self was very had low self esteem, although I never doubted the love from the All. It was years after I began Jung study and during my analysis, that I finally woke up to the idea, I wasn't as bad as all that. In fact, I rather liked myself. I know where my earlier ambitions got started, because in my family, love was with held until one behaved well.The Church encouraged that idea , especially the nuns,and my back carried a huge load of guilt. You know how hard it is to manage a good self esteem based on fact not fiction, especially when one is always told how sinful one is( as all of us are) and how far off the " mark " .Often one's actions seem to make those ideas seem true.Self righteousness is a constant temptation for everyone, once they realize the are actually " OK " Especially when one wants to convert everyone in sight, in one's zeal. So, I learned, (I hope) and am now always conscious of the temptation. If it still exists in my traits, its time to yank it out.I try very hard to tell everyone in earshot, that my views are mine. No imprimatur goes with those views..I know I come on too strong, but I actually do not want to hit anyone over the head with " my truths " . I just want them to understand why I have them.The teacher, proselytizer, whatever is really in my bones.: As for how little we know...I realized that when I read and learned about spirituality, past and present and took as my Psalm, Psalm131) that said: O Lord, my heart is not proud, nor are my eyes haughty; I busy not myself with great things, nor with things too sublime for me Nay rather, I have stilled and quieted my soul like a weaned child. Like a weaned child on its mother's lap, so is my soul within me. We each have our own set of traits that need to be refined, which is one of the reasons for our sufferings in life.We each have our own temptations to conquer, and I imagine no two of us are alike.But, I do not think that Jung's understanding that; " was the notion that all humanity had to do was to project all its sins onto one man n walk away free. " was ever my personal problem. We learned thatit was our personal sins that put Jesus on the cross. As for compassion for all sinners, I learned I had better start with myself. I have always felt that our sufferings have value in as much as we can then see what others are actually suffering because we have been there. Alice we have different religious backgrounds. I have tried to leave a lot behind, but it is hard to let ingrown ideas out. And we see others through our psyches. I personally have tried to move away from Christian " words " or phrases such as " carrying one's cross) which was what I thought I said in my last post. Same idea, different words. I like Jung's better for myself. I say becoming conscious raised the consciousness of others. You say ; " in redeeming yrself u are helping others collectively.Same thing. As for confusing words, we are. We are both works in progress.Like you, I knew there was good that would come out of the suffering. Perhaps my understanding of Jesus, and the whole Christian myth is different. I do know that I do have my own understanding taken from my past experiences. As I said before, Today, here I stand. Tomorrow I may have more insights. ----- I try to learn each day. As Psalm 138 says: " The Lord will complete what he has done for me; your kindness, O Lord, endures forever; forsake not the work of your hands. " We are both becoming wise by learning through experience and the grace we are given. no silly old woman around here.As Long as Sophia stays close. Much love, Toni Original Message ----- aS \ : IonaDove@... To: JUNG-FIRE Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 8:10 AM Subject: Re Redemption: In a message dated 2/28/04 9:26:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, omagramps410@... writes: I could not, since I have first to " redeem " my own self as much as I can. Dear Toni - we are confusing words! This was Jung's pt - in redeeming yrself u are helping others collectively. Hence, the rose growing out of the cross] As my Teacher used to say: Eat off yr own plate! Jesus pointed this out wh he warned ag seeing the mote in the other's eye n not the beam in our own. Wh Jung was protesting - [o somebody reprint that letter!] was the notion that all humanity had to do was to project all its sins onto one man n walk away free. J felt that we shld look upon the story as a paradigm/model for our suff our own karma [complexes]. The esoteric interpretation is true for all time out of time.Wh is the message of THE JESUS MYSTERIES..... What is disturbing ab fundamentalists of ALL religions is 1] they take evthing literally, not allowing a symbolicinterpret to lead people to deeper understanding; n 2] they think they are RIGHT n evbody else wrong n therefore in need of putting to rights [often death! thruout history.} Contrast the American fundy belief in their own salvation w/Buddhist vow of the bodhisattva to be willing to return ag n ag until the last sentient being comes to enlightenment! An extreme case: the Inquisition, where peolple were to be saved fr the devil by being tortured n the Inquisitors were so busy w/their auto da fe, enantiodromia set in, i.e. the 'devil' walked into them instead! We can see this clearly thru the distance of time but what about today??? Trying to be too good can be bad for the psyche bec the shadow denied gets immed proj onto others. This is why it is very prudent to be constantly aware of how little we know n above all not be righteous! We need to have compassion for 'sinners' bec karma [cause n effect] will catch up w/em eventually. I now at the end of my life can see this quite clearly in my own case! I was blessed by meeting my teacher so early n in Jung at a perilous juncture in my life. I paid n paid, wept n wept, but was blessed in knowing there was a purpose behind my suffering. The only credit I can take is that I never gave up n learned not to play the blame game. To understand, is to forgive. Two of the worst traps in life are blaming n the words 'if only.......' Some of u deem me wise - hah! if only......!! wh is why I sign myself yet again Silly Old Woman [ at least I am conscious of THAT!] :] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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