Re: fEden free will and consciousness

[Guest guest]

u make some excellent viewpts! the eating of apple is sometimes called 'felix

culpa' - neat-o sin! bec had Eve not eaten, we wld still be unconscious....

love

ao

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

Re: fEden

In a message dated 3/12/04 8:27:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,

nancysmith_1@... writes:

it's my personal suspicion that the tree in Eden from which our ancestors

disasterously ate was the Tree of Judgement which promoted their

misdirection of the Judging Function toward people rather than courses of

action.)

The story of A n E is the myth of the birth of ego consc. The Tree of the

Knowledge of Good and Evil. The first result was shame n self-consc! Many

of us

forget that that wasn't the reason they got kicked out! They got expelled

lest

they eat of the Tree of Life n become like the gods!

N: I'm familiar, of course, with this version of the myth and don't reject

it, only suggest there are other ways to think of it, that it is

intertretation rather than gospel. I feel that it's important that we each

come to ancient material with a fresh eye, if only for what it may tell us

about ourselves.

Consider for example that if the story were told, then written to shore

up a particular patriarchal organization of life; if the god were created in

the image of the human patriarchal father who prefered to have hard working

sons and daughters who left all the decisions of good and evil to him, how

nicely this myth works out. They are shamed for disobeying his command that

only he may judge. Without the judgement of 'good' and 'evil' how could

there be 'shame' (or blame)? Perhaps this archetypal, senex father covets

the youth of his children (Tree of Life.) As long as their lives and wills

are his, he tolerates their existence, even stops by with a pat on the head

from time to time. But should they start making their own judgements when

might those judgements turn on him? When might they begin to see that he

may have a flaw or two? Perhaps realize that when he is dead the garden may

become theirs?

He becomes like some of the parents who would keep their children from

Analysts for fear those 'bad apples' might point out how it's all the

parent's fault. Better to be shed of them and let them face the wilderness

without Social Security (as tribe and family were then). And so on. But

enough spinning of ancient yarns as they might have been.

Where C draws his 6 states of existence as related to free will,

I'd like to introject the Trancendent function which I believe we tend to

only experience operating, perhaps, in states 5 and 6. For myself, it is

occurs when giving myself the time and space for the TF to operate that I

experience the greatest (perhaps I'd best say) illusion of free will. It is

then when the pattern of the universe seems to fall in place and I as a

functional part of it. My personal 'will' really is no longer an issue

because it has become part of the divine will. I am both alive and at

peace. For me, this is how I understand 'an act of grace' because I can't

actually 'bring it about. I can only try to get out of the way and give it

space to happen.

AO: I will forw a poem of mine [one of Edinger's favorites] that hints at

the

meaning of the tree in my Jung dream.

The poem just came full-blown n is publ in JUNGIAN SYMBOLISM IN ASTROLOGY.

Read it carefully, if u are interested.

N: I have that book. Perhaps I'll take another look at it on the page where

psyberspace doesn't distort the spacing.

Blessings,

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Don't much agree with Adam and Eve and a semi-conscious G-d read your way,( the

writers could only write with he consciousness they then had, after all. BUT I

love the rest of your post and want to say AMEN.

I said exactly the same thing in my last post of why one needs to have a free

will so one can give it away.

Toni Re: fEden

In a message dated 3/12/04 8:27:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,

nancysmith_1@... writes:

it's my personal suspicion that the tree in Eden from which our ancestors

disasterously ate was the Tree of Judgement which promoted their

misdirection of the Judging Function toward people rather than courses of

action.)

The story of A n E is the myth of the birth of ego consc. The Tree of the

Knowledge of Good and Evil. The first result was shame n self-consc! Many

of us

forget that that wasn't the reason they got kicked out! They got expelled

lest

they eat of the Tree of Life n become like the gods!

N: I'm familiar, of course, with this version of the myth and don't reject

it, only suggest there are other ways to think of it, that it is

intertretation rather than gospel. I feel that it's important that we each

come to ancient material with a fresh eye, if only for what it may tell us

about ourselves.

Consider for example that if the story were told, then written to shore

up a particular patriarchal organization of life; if the god were created in

the image of the human patriarchal father who prefered to have hard working

sons and daughters who left all the decisions of good and evil to him, how

nicely this myth works out. They are shamed for disobeying his command that

only he may judge. Without the judgement of 'good' and 'evil' how could

there be 'shame' (or blame)? Perhaps this archetypal, senex father covets

the youth of his children (Tree of Life.) As long as their lives and wills

are his, he tolerates their existence, even stops by with a pat on the head

from time to time. But should they start making their own judgements when

might those judgements turn on him? When might they begin to see that he

may have a flaw or two? Perhaps realize that when he is dead the garden may

become theirs?

He becomes like some of the parents who would keep their children from

Analysts for fear those 'bad apples' might point out how it's all the

parent's fault. Better to be shed of them and let them face the wilderness

without Social Security (as tribe and family were then). And so on. But

enough spinning of ancient yarns as they might have been.

Where C draws his 6 states of existence as related to free will,

I'd like to introject the Trancendent function which I believe we tend to

only experience operating, perhaps, in states 5 and 6. For myself, it is

occurs when giving myself the time and space for the TF to operate that I

experience the greatest (perhaps I'd best say) illusion of free will. It is

then when the pattern of the universe seems to fall in place and I as a

functional part of it. My personal 'will' really is no longer an issue

because it has become part of the divine will. I am both alive and at

peace. For me, this is how I understand 'an act of grace' because I can't

actually 'bring it about. I can only try to get out of the way and give it

space to happen.

AO: I will forw a poem of mine [one of Edinger's favorites] that hints at

the

meaning of the tree in my Jung dream.

The poem just came full-blown n is publ in JUNGIAN SYMBOLISM IN ASTROLOGY.

Read it carefully, if u are interested.

N: I have that book. Perhaps I'll take another look at it on the page where

psyberspace doesn't distort the spacing.

Blessings,

" Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may

be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. "

H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

[Guest guest]

Dear Toni, All,

Re: fEden

In a message dated 3/12/04 8:27:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,

nancysmith_1@... writes:

it's my personal suspicion that the tree in Eden from which our ancestors

disasterously ate was the Tree of Judgement which promoted their

misdirection of the Judging Function toward people rather than courses of

action.)

The story of A n E is the myth of the birth of ego consc. The Tree of the

Knowledge of Good and Evil. The first result was shame n self-consc! Many

of us

forget that that wasn't the reason they got kicked out! They got expelled

lest

they eat of the Tree of Life n become like the gods!

N: I'm familiar, of course, with this version of the myth and don't reject

it, only suggest there are other ways to think of it, that it is

intertretation rather than gospel. I feel that it's important that we

each

come to ancient material with a fresh eye, if only for what it may tell us

about ourselves.

Consider for example that if the story were told, then written to

shore

up a particular patriarchal organization of life; if the god were created

in

the image of the human patriarchal father who prefered to have hard

working

sons and daughters who left all the decisions of good and evil to him, how

nicely this myth works out. They are shamed for disobeying his command

that

only he may judge. Without the judgement of 'good' and 'evil' how could

there be 'shame' (or blame)? Perhaps this archetypal, senex father covets

the youth of his children (Tree of Life.) As long as their lives and

wills

are his, he tolerates their existence, even stops by with a pat on the

head

from time to time. But should they start making their own judgements when

might those judgements turn on him? When might they begin to see that he

may have a flaw or two? Perhaps realize that when he is dead the garden

may

become theirs?

He becomes like some of the parents who would keep their children from

Analysts for fear those 'bad apples' might point out how it's all the

parent's fault. Better to be shed of them and let them face the

wilderness

without Social Security (as tribe and family were then). And so on. But

enough spinning of ancient yarns as they might have been.

Where C draws his 6 states of existence as related to free

will,

I'd like to introject the Trancendent function which I believe we tend to

only experience operating, perhaps, in states 5 and 6. For myself, it is

occurs when giving myself the time and space for the TF to operate that I

experience the greatest (perhaps I'd best say) illusion of free will. It

is

then when the pattern of the universe seems to fall in place and I as a

functional part of it. My personal 'will' really is no longer an issue

because it has become part of the divine will. I am both alive and at

peace. For me, this is how I understand 'an act of grace' because I can't

actually 'bring it about. I can only try to get out of the way and give

it

space to happen.