Questions

[Guest guest]

> Bill, it's true, there are multiple references, research, etc. to support

that, but you are putting the burden of the proof on a besieged partner with a

chaotic life to prove it, LOL. *You* have some time on your hands, how 'bout

*you* supply supporting evidence to the contrary I'm smiling here, really,

honest.

My first thought about this characterization of me was " Hey! I'm not besieged "

But . . . I am. I'm scrambling to keep my and my kids' lives as much on the

same path, but this divorce is consuming my resources.

For the past 10 months it has been mostly emotional . . . my ex was doing his

level best to make me suffer. Thanks to friends, my family, therapy and yes, my

inner strength, I've gotten through. But now, I just have one worry left, though

it's huge -- money.

My lawyer just e-mailed me. I'm behind enough on payments to them that she can't

do much more work for me. I owe more than twice the original estimate of costs,

and there's lots of work left to be done. There's money to pay tied up in the

marital estate, but I can't get to it without my ex's agreement, which he won't

give. I am working hard at home, but the money just isn't coming in fast enough.

So yes, I guess I am besieged and have a chaotic life. Thanks for reading.

--Liz

----------

Cartesian Bear at Zazzle: Shirts and Gifts:

http://www.zazzle.com/cartesianbear?rf=238831668488066559

Zazzle Coupons: http://www.zazzle.com/coupons?rf=238831668488066559

Knit Suite: Mobile Apps for Knitters http://knitsuite.polymathsolution.com

Gifts for Knitters: http://www.squidoo.com/gifts-for-knitters

[Guest guest]

helen_foisy wrote:

> Bill, it's true, there are multiple references, research, etc. to

Where, please?

> support that, but you are putting the burden of the proof on a

> besieged partner with a chaotic life to prove it, LOL. *You* have

I asked for a *reference* Helen; I didn't ask for proof. You're reading

*way* too much into a simple question. Liz' answer was enough for me -

*thank you Liz* - and perfectly appropriate.

> some time on your hands, how 'bout *you* supply supporting evidence

> to the contrary I'm smiling here, really, honest.

Being retired needn't mean I have time on my hands. For many, including

me, it's the opposite -- too *little* time.

>

> Just look at the proposed (and probably going to be cast in stone)

> criteria for ASD in the DSM V. Sensory issues are now part of the

> criteria. Granted they don't really get it right. Folks with SPD

> generally don't go around sniffing objects like dogs. The more low

> functioning may, but the rest of us are more subtle LOL.

[ snip ]

????? All very good to know, I'm sure . But I didn't ask about about

sensory issues. My question related to slow *thinking* in AS people,

not slow sensory perception.

>

> Sensory processing disorder is a very common *co-morbid* issue with

> ASD. It takes vast amounts of skull sweat to collate all incoming

> stimulus, be able to make timely decision and act upon it in a timely

> manner. Hence it does take many of us longer to process novel input

> in any given situation.

*That* relates directly to my original question. A reference , please?

Just a trustworthy reference -- I don't need proof -- as a starting

point for further reading.

> Many of us have learned to compensate by

> faking it in situations we aren't practiced in. Hence Liane Holliday

> Willey's famous " pretending to be normal. " The ASD person can

> eventually become tired and overwhelmed, sometimes resulting in the

> hall-mark " meldown. " Depending how far into the spectrum the ASD

> person is, this will happen sooner .. or later. Will you be satisfied

> if we can agree it is a co-morbid disorder?

Myself, I don't need to be satisfied.

I do agree " SPD " is a common co-morbid *issue* in AS. Though it's

less common among NTs, but *is present* in some. Yes?

> I'm glad you don't

> have these co-morbids but many of us do in varying degrees.

Helen, Helen, Helen! Snide! How do you know, why do you believe that I

don't?

>

> Another common co-morbid is dyspraxia. Tony Attwood even talks about

> the distinctive AS " gait. " It's more noticeable in males than females

> .. if only because socially, females are forgiven for being klutzes.

[ snip ]

I didn't ask about co-morbid or dyspraxia, let alone gait.

However... Certainly Dr. Attwood is *prominent*; his contributions

even are very valuable. But he's *not* infallible. Inter alia I don't

buy into " distinctive gait " in AS as a co-morbidity. That over-reaches;

it's anecdotal observation -- IMO.

But then, even trained scientists might disagree, ...yes?

>

> I think it's fair to say that since we are still calling Aspergers a

> " syndrome " that we acknowledge the more prominent co-morbids as

> well.

Yes. That's a cause I've championed repeatedly on this very List.

You might remember it better as my plea to *not confuse* AS

co-morbidities with AS itself; to acknowledge their separateness.

>

>>>> LOL Deb yeh with hubby too he says no a lot, and then in the

[ snip ]

>>> Much of this is because Aspies tend to have slower processing

>>> speed than NTs -- we not less intelligent, we just think a bit slower.

>> [ snip ]

>>

>> Hm. I've heard that (... " slower " ...). ly, I don't believe

>> it. Please, can you point me to some trustworthy documentation?

[ snip ]

- Bill ...AS, 79, ... " trained scientist "

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

BassMan_720 wrote:

>

> Liz/Bill

>

> There is a branch of research that explains this slow thinking in people

> with AS. I am no expert and sorry I don't have any references at

> hand but there are plenty of open domain accounts on the internet. This

> theory is probably old hat to many on this site so apologies first.

[ snip ]

Thanks Steve, for the useful exposition.

I'm familiar with at least some of the recent brain imaging

research. IMO a lot of it *wa-a-ay* over-reaches; too many presumptions

are taken as " givens " . There's a lot of gee-whiz (some even

mathematical), and far too little of A-> B-> C-> ... QED!

If I've heard/read about " slow thinking " in AS once, I've heard/read it

a thousand times.

I don't believe it's a general phenomenon. How could it be, in all

those AS engineers, programmers, etc etc etc? " Slow " just doesn't do it.

[Asidem: Remember I've said elsewhere *context* is everything. One

might be " quick " Here, but " slow " There.]

The crux issue is the clock-time from perception of original stimulus to

final solution of any given task.

In my experience, personally, and in that of the few " real " AS I know

face-to-face, it's most often *lightning fast*.

And more often than not it's correct. ...Or at least workable, with

fall-backs already pre-figured. To rather badly paraphrase Yoda: " There

is no 'slow'; only 'DO' "

This fast-thinking skill was *the* keystone in my entire lengthy and

successful career.

Not that everything I touched worked that way. On occasion I'd have

insufficient understanding of some input.

Then my thinking process devolved to more like waltz-time: slow...,

slow..., quick!quick! I'd have to mull over a situation for a short

while, usually at most a few minutes, and then suddenly - *in a wink* -

The Answer!

On very rare occasions " slow " has meant years. But even then, once

all the needed links are in place, the final chain *simply materializes*

(quick!quick!).

That was the case in coming to realize, after many decades of serious

pondering, that I was AS. Which led to my *quick* self-referral to a

shrink and eventual evaluation as AS " without a doubt " .

It was the case when finally realizing, after 30-odd years, what was

happening in my/our " death-spiral " marriage. Which led quickly to a

solution, a modus-vivendi, which works.

Even in technical matters: Understanding the mechanics of TCP/IP and

Internet addressing had me *stumped*. I knew I was missing something,

but had *no idea* what.

So I spent a year or so of off- & -on parallel reading in *three*

subject-related books. As I reached my limits in one, I jumped to the

same section in another. In this halting fashion finally I reached a

*single sentence*, and suddenly *everything* was lucently clear.

[ snip ]

> One could argue that because the reasoning part of the brain has to work

> harder in people with AS, just to process mundane things, it exercises

> the correct part of the brain to help reason through complex problems

> and think very deeply. This very presumptuous part of the theory may

> also explain why people with AS can excel in areas like engineering,

> computer programming, etc.

IF " has to work harder " and " exercises " is real in that connection.

Cognition is still a far cry from cellular oxygen uptake; " exercises "

has unverified(?) implications.

>

> Just a thought

A good thought. One has to start somewhere.

> Steve

>

>

>>>>> LOL Deb yeh with hubby too he says no a lot, and then in the end

>>>>> sometimes yes, I haven't figured it out either let me know if you

>>>>> do.

>>> [ snip ]

>>>> Much of this is because Aspies tend to have slower processing speed

>>>> than NTs -- we not less intelligent, we just think a bit slower.

>>> [ snip ]

>>> Hm. I've heard that (... " slower " ...). ly, I don't believe it.

>>> Please, can you point me to some trustworthy documentation?

[ snip ]

- Bill ...AS, 79

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Hey Bill,

I was never being snide. That is not my style. I do get torqued but when I'm

torqued I am very genuine about it I was teasing you, that is all. I *know*

you were not asking for scholarly research but I do think it's fair to say that

you (and I!) have a lot more time than Liz does right now to be scouring the

internet for supporting proofs/references/documentation/all same to me.

Nor was I trying to insinuate that you're whiling away your golden years playing

cribbage down at the Legion Hall. The joke with all my " retired " friends was we

need to get a job so we can get a break like everyone else.

For those of us who labour under the co-morbid condition of sensory processing

disorder, it directly impacts the speed at which we can sort out incoming

stimuli and provide appropriate output in a timely manner. It's like our senses

were wired for a slightly different purpose. I'm too tired and fuzzy headed to

continue this discussion now but I will tomorrow .. with some references

In closing, sorry if you were offended. That was not my intent.

- Helen (extends olive branch, still smiling)

> >>>> LOL Deb yeh with hubby too he says no a lot, and then in the

> [ snip ]

> >>> Much of this is because Aspies tend to have slower processing

> >>> speed than NTs -- we not less intelligent, we just think a bit slower.

> >> [ snip ]

> >>

> >> Hm. I've heard that (... " slower " ...). ly, I don't believe

> >> it. Please, can you point me to some trustworthy documentation?

> [ snip ]

>

> - Bill ...AS, 79, ... " trained scientist "

>

> --

> WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

> http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

>

[Guest guest]

> I don't believe it's a general phenomenon. How could it be, in all

> those AS engineers, programmers, etc etc etc? " Slow " just doesn't do it.

> [Asidem: Remember I've said elsewhere *context* is everything. One

> might be " quick " Here, but " slow " There.]

I agree . . . the slowness in my brain isn't universal, it's just in some areas.

As I said, I'm *smart*. I haven't taken any IQ tests, but my kids have, and

they're in " nosebleed territory " for IQ. [Figurative language alert: " nosebleed

territory " = so high you are at risk of a nosebleed, as if at high altitude.]

Kids usually have IQ scores within 15 points of their parents; that's definitely

true in my family. In my case, slow does *not* equal stupid.

Academically, my recall is at least as fast as anyone's. I was always the first

to finish exams. I can make up new, usually humorous song lyrics on the spot. I

can beat most people in a visual " spot the differences " picture. I infuriated

employers by completing 40+ hours of work in 30. [The infuriation came when I

wanted time off, not additional tasks so I'd have to put in as much overtime as

everyone else.]

But I am slow in conversations. It takes me longer than normal to process spoken

word into thought and ideas. When my 11 year old (who does not think in images)

tries to verbally explain a picture to me, my brain ties itself in knots. A

voice on a telephone is like trying to interpret semaphore flags. I can do it,

but it takes a lot of effort.

I'm also slow to learn physical skills. This has improved over the years, but

I'm still far slower than normal.

Bill, the engineers, programmers, etc. may be brilliant, but " slow " the same way

I am.

I originally mentioned the slow processing speed in a very limited context: why

some Aspies say " no " as an automatic first response to a question. I was not

postulating a universal slowness, just a specific one that I, and maybe the two

husbands, suffer.

--Liz

very glad this conversation is via e-mail rather than live, or I'd be hopelessly

behind.

----------

Cartesian Bear at Zazzle: Shirts and Gifts:

http://www.zazzle.com/cartesianbear?rf=238831668488066559

Zazzle Coupons: http://www.zazzle.com/coupons?rf=238831668488066559

Knit Suite: Mobile Apps for Knitters http://knitsuite.polymathsolution.com

Gifts for Knitters: http://www.squidoo.com/gifts-for-knitters

[Guest guest]

In my experience, personally, and in that of the few "real" AS I know face-to-face, it's most often *lightning fast*.And more often than not it's correct. ...Or at least workable, with fall-backs already pre-figured. To rather badly paraphrase Yoda: "There is no 'slow'; only 'DO'"

Hi Bill:

Isn't this part of the dilemma? Do you think all folks with autism can process at this speed accross the board like in relationships, team sports and working with others? OR do you think it is related to their interests or strengths that might be job or special interest related?

Just curious?