Re: NT and AS (RE-POSTED)

[Guest guest]

Ron H had to re-post one of his earlier messages today because his

original didn't reach the list.

It looks is if mine below didn't reach the list either. At least it

doesn't seem to show up in the archives, so I'm re-posting mine too.

If by chance anyone did get my original a couple of days ago, apologies,

and do please pipe up and say so 'cos it might help to work out what's

happening and why we seem to be losing postings like this.

Thanks,

-------- REPOST --------

Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 12:52:42 +0700

To: aspires-relationships

Subject: Re: NT and AS

On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 at 16:47:51 +0100 (BST), JUDY BARROW wrote:

> Compare away, . Thank you for the kind words, too.

OK, Thanks Judy. Here we go....

[JUDY on IAN:]

> My own AS admits that he doesnt know or understand me, and despises NT's for

what he sees is their vaciousness. Yet, he so wants to be part of that world,

has spend years mimicking them, (me, us), using learnt social phrases and

behaviours, because they have worked for others, so he hopes they will work for

him.

JOHN ON SELF: Yes, I reckon I despise that vacuuousness too when NTs

rush to over-quick conclusions and react without really thinking.

Sometimes, just by good luck, they get away with it, but it's when

they don't where my despising comes in most strongly. But no, I've no

desire to mimick vacuuousness; I'd rather be slow and sure than quick

and doubtful!

[JUDY on IAN:]

> My own NT'ness manifests that I constantly crave social life and some 'ad hoc'

attention, and for Ian to design that, seems impossible for him. He has learned

to hug, and to tell me how he feels. But he tries to mimick so its not always

real or sincere, although he never lies deliberately, its a coping reaction. He

says he wants to be spontaneous but he cant do it, he plans everything and if my

reaction doesnt fit his 'script' then he is stuck.

JOHN ON SELF: I've given up on attending social functions with my wife,

and trying to paste a credible smile on my face at such events when I'm

actually bored to tears. I just let her go out on her own nowadays and

I'm usually happy enough to stay at home on my own. There isn't the

chemistry between us for me to enjoy hugs with my wife, but (and I'm

sad about this 'cos I know what I'm missing) I've found I can enjoy them

with certain other members of the opposite sex. The same goes for us

with 'ad hoc' attention, and again I'm sad. I don't try to pretend I

enjoy these things when I don't. I do have the 'stuck' feeling you

mention, but in my case I put it down to lack of compatible chemistry.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> I have spent a long time accepting that Ian is the way he is and I cant mould

him into a loving, socially aware, small talker and giver of gifts. And we know

there is more to a two way relationship than that.

JOHN ON SELF: Smalltalk feels like a waste of time and energy to me,

and gifting feels like a waste of money. No, we're not quite on the

breadline yet, but when it comes to any kind of luxury spending, for

the little we have, I think as individuals, we have a better idea

ourselves of how we'd like to spend it, than relying on a spouse's

judgement.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> However, he is loyal, caring and funny, and he sticks by me no matter what. He

is very boyish and cant do a practical thing to save his life. So I am the

fixer, of everything from his social gaffs (laughing heartily at a private joke

at my mother's funeral, saying inappropriate things) to putting the tiles on the

roof.

JOHN ON SELF: I don't see myself as being funny. A bit 'clever'

perhaps? But with minimal social contacts, how would I know? Seems

I'm more self-sufficient, independent and practical. I can cook and

clean for myself if I have to, and I spent over 6 months of last year

living an independent life in other countries.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> It may then sound as though this is a fruitless 'task'. Its not, although I

have alienated a lot of people in my family by staying with Ian, who they see as

someone who is rude, artless and selfish. This is his image when he is trying to

prove himself to new people, he thinks he is being assertive and showing them

whats what. He hates to be ignored or dismissed.

JOHN ON SELF: I'm not sure about selfish but certainly self-centred.

Aren't we all self-centred to a degree? I don't have much of an

opportunity to meet new people, so the issue of proving myself rarely

arises. However if it does arise, and if I know I'm right, then I will

be assertive.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> His AS make up does include OCD, and this brings the negative thoughts, and

constant picking over of scenarios, so he cant relax - he is continually scared

of 'what if' and he is a nervous wreck who cant take change or heavy emotion. I

know that I fall into the trap of enabler and carer. The OCD contributes a lot

to his meltdowns, when I am there to ease him into calmness.

JOHN ON SELF: This isn't such a serious issue with me, but I do need to

explore the " what ifs " and this can sometimes lead me into unnecessary

worrying and negativity.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> Sometimes I think he must have a joyless existence, his life revolves around

coping in an NT world, that he makes things hard for himself, that he isnt

carefree. He says he is jealous of my ability to make friends, to chat away, and

have a range of social interests.

JOHN ON SELF: Yes, I admit my current life does lack joy. But OTOH I

equate being carefree to not watching where I put my feet as I walk, so

it's better to keep on the lookout rather than step in some dogshit. As

for diverse social interests, I can only see them as being as strong as

the common interests I share with those social contacts, so that's where

my limitation arises.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> I tell him that these friends are sometimes people I see because of my

lifestyle, and they wouldnt rescue you from a burning building. That sometimes

quality should surpass quantity. His friends, few as they may be, like him for

what he is, and the whiff of the 'emperors new clothes' doesnt adhere to his

circle. They like him for him.

JOHN ON SELF: Yes, I'd say I'm mostly with Ian on this one. It's not

clear to me what the purpose of this " lifestyle " you mention, actually

is. I would have said quality should always surpass quantity (didn't

really get this point).

[JUDY on IAN:]

> I wish that Ian could see how good he is and how liked he is; and that he

doesnt have to be acceptable to NT's. I am what I am, and he is what he is. He

strives to prove to me that he is worth something, but I already know. He tries

so hard to fit in, but at the same time he resents that he wishes to fit in. For

him, I would wish that he stops trying and just accepts that:

JOHN ON SELF: Since my diagnosis 2 years ago, I've given up trying to

conform because I now realise it's an unachievable task that leeches

away at my character. Just occasionally, I do meet people who like me

as I am, but on the whole my eccentricity leaves me lonely.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> - he cant go into busy places because he has Sensory Processing issues (noise,

smell, sounds, lights), so its OK not to go there in the first place; why put

yourself through that?

JOHN ON SELF: Not much of an issue with me, but I do hate places where

loud pop music's being played. It's recognised as being damaging to

the ears.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> - he cant make small talk, and if he tries, he often uses tried and tested

phrases which may or may not work this time around; so dont make a false front,

just be yourself, and if others dont like it, tough

JOHN ON SELF: I can manage some smalltalk if it's an unavoidable leadup

to something I do want to talk about, but without that incentive it

feels pointless to me. I think I've learned to be myself, but the

downside of this manifests itself as more silence and loneliness than

most people would be comfortable with.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> - he thinks his jokes are great, but cant gauge the appropriate time to say

them! But he cant see it, so I have to nudge him in the ribs, and say, dont try

so hard to be liked

JOHN ON SELF: Funny, but I've never been able to think of any jokes

when an appropriate time comes. Somehow the pressure to come up with

something pushes any joke memories I might have right away.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> - he does charm people, he is funny, he is lovely, when he isnt trying hard to

fit the mould, but then he cant then believe in himself, because of the fact

that he gets it wrong on other occasions. This he blames on the recipient of

the inappropriate remark, rather than himself

JOHN ON SELF: I wouldn't know whether I'd charm people or not because I

so rarely meet any. I don't have much self-confidence as a result, and

there's the Aspie trait of self-deprecation besides.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> - he believes he is always right!

JOHN ON SELF: Haha! Me too! But in my case it's true because I

don't open my mouth at all unless I know I'm right!!

[JUDY on IAN:]

> - he can be cruel and nasty to me, like a hurt child in a tantrum, just as

with his meltdowns, its because he is frustrated at not being able to read a

situation and again, he resents me for seemingly being able to weave my way

through NT-world with ease. (Not so!)

JOHN ON SELF: My reaction to perceived wrongs perpetrated against me is

not immediate. It's very long term, and in those cases I hold some

very big grudges. In the short term, there's no visible reaction; I

continue to act normally whilst quietly gathering more evidence against

the perpetrator.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> If Ian accepts that he is OK and he doesnt need to prove himself to me or

anyone else, then he could be a lot easier to live with. However, his natural

inclination is to take a defensive stance and to protect himself at all times.

Hence the assessment by others that he is selfish and manipulative. And I

whinge. Which is where we came in.

JOHN ON SELF: I never saw the point of trying to prove myself except by

hard work, perseverance and use of my knowledge and intelligence,

because 'short cut' proofs simply don't work. Consequently I don't even

attempt to run the rat race in lots of areas. I argue that taking a

defensive stance is only appropriate if you have adequate weapons to

defend yourself.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> I try not to take all the AS traits he shows, personally - he genuinely cant

go to parties or into restaurants without feeling assaulted. I can go on my own

and enjoy myself more.

JOHN ON SELF: I can enjoy restaurants and small dinner parties if the

company is compatible, but that's a big " if " because in case of most

participants, they're not. With the exception of small open-air

restaurants by the roadside in Thailand, which are just fine,

conventional restaurants, especially in UK, feel like an expensive

ripoff to me.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> I know he forgets my birthday and important stuff, but if its his own

birthday, woe betide. But I can remind him, and give him the date, time and

place of my own birthday arrangements.

JOHN ON SELF: We don't observe birthdays or Christmas or wedding

anniversary at all. My birthday comes just a few days in advance of

my wife's each year, so the rot first set in when she forgot mine. To

be honest I don't really know what all these ceremonies achieve in the

long run.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> He wont buy me flowers or presents or learn how to cook himself a meal, but he

will buy me my favourite author's new book on a whim. He wont make me rich, help

with the housework, or want to put his arm around me very often, but he does

know that he doesnt do that... and I cant script him to do so, which is half the

battle of understanding our own limitations. The other half is for me to accept

this, and not force him into a place he cant navigate, that of spontaniety and

effusive affection. Its a darn shame, and I feel isolated a lot of the time, but

I wouldnt be here if I didnt love him for the person he really is.

JOHN ON SELF: Cut flowers just wither and die, but I'm OK with planting

some in the garden. I can and do cook for myself when I have to, but

I have to plan and buy stuff in and be in control of the kitchen for

that, and I really prefer it if someone else does all that. I can't

put my arm around my wife at all nowadays. In fact I shrink when she

approaches closely.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> He is abrupt with me because he is frightened of getting it all wrong. And

lashes out with his tongue, and I say, dont shoot the messenger, pal.

JOHN'S COMMENT: Hmmm... I don't really understand that reaction. How

does being abrupt help to get it right? There must be some kind of

reasoning behind it, though.

[JUDY on IAN:]

> His own childhood horrors and lack of affection has given him a chip or

seventy on his shoulder, so I would recommend CBT to anyone who has the same

damage, not all AS'ers are happy children and lack of diagnosis and

understanding would force them into a corner. This must mar their view of life.

JOHN ON SELF: This is not the scenario in my case, but I'm happy to

accept your explanation. I had an unusual childhood myself because I

lost my parents in WW2 and was brought up by two sets of grandparents.

It wasn't bad. Rather than having any chips on my shoulders, I'd say

they tied helium balloons on to them!

[JUDY on IAN:]

> Trying to put my own stance of trying hard to please, which I was brought up

to do, against Ian's fight with himself and others, has been non productive, all

that has happened is that I was a doormat to his overly strong personality,

which he developed as a force field against the NT world. I have to stand my

ground, and appeal to his superiority by saying, I can speak NT, respect my

views. and I can help the world to come to you.

JOHN ON SELF: I dunno, could you perhaps be enabling his issues by

bending over too far, trying to please? I know in my case that my

independence is far more important to me than my comfort and more

important than always having meals placed in front of me (although I do

like having my meals brought!). I don't believe my survival and

self-preservation instincts have been in anyway diminished by my

aspieness, and if I have to cope, I will. Learning all about coping

has always been important to me. Is that important to Ian, d'you

think? What would happen if you weren't there to cook for him for a

few days? Does he know where the tin-opener's kept?

[JUDY on IAN:]

> Finally, Ian struggles daily, and life is hard for him. He translates this

into rage, hurts, and disdain for others. Nurturing is not in his mindset

because he wasnt nurtured. So our lessons are on what we both like and wish for

one another.

JOHN'S COMMENT: But what would happen if for some reason he was left on

his own for a spell? If there weren't any others around for him to

display his rage and disdain upon? Would he still suffer meltdowns and

rages by himself? Or is it possible than his intelligence and

self-preservation instincts might just kick in?

Well there we are! If you thought yours was a long post, this

response must have just about doubled it. Oh well, I can blame it on

our well-known Aspie trait of long-windedness!

[Guest guest]

I am curious about 's comments regarding the lack of chemistry with his wife. Was it always that way? Or did it slowly become that way over time? Is it related to the evolution of one's AS or something else?

Sandy> Compare away, . Thank you for the kind words, too.OK, Thanks Judy. Here we go....[JUDY on IAN:]> My own AS admits that he doesnt know or understand me, and despises NT's for what he sees is their vaciousness. Yet, he so wants to be part of that world, has spend years mimicking them, (me, us), using learnt social phrases and behaviours, because they have worked for others, so he hopes they will work for him.JOHN ON SELF: Yes, I reckon I despise that vacuuousness too when NTsrush to over-quick conclusions and react without really thinking.Sometimes, just by good luck, they get away with it, but it's whenthey don't where my despising comes in most strongly. But no, I've nodesire to

mimick vacuuousness; I'd rather be slow and sure than quickand doubtful![JUDY on IAN:]> My own NT'ness manifests that I constantly crave social life and some 'ad hoc' attention, and for Ian to design that, seems impossible for him. He has learned to hug, and to tell me how he feels. But he tries to mimick so its not always real or sincere, although he never lies deliberately, its a coping reaction. He says he wants to be spontaneous but he cant do it, he plans everything and if my reaction doesnt fit his 'script' then he is stuck.JOHN ON SELF: I've given up on attending social functions with my wife,and trying to paste a credible smile on my face at such events when I'mactually bored to tears. I just let her go out on her own nowadays andI'm usually happy enough to stay at home on my own. There isn't thechemistry between us for me to enjoy hugs with my wife, but (and I'msad about this 'cos I know what I'm

missing) I've found I can enjoy themwith certain other members of the opposite sex. The same goes for uswith 'ad hoc' attention, and again I'm sad. I don't try to pretend Ienjoy these things when I don't. I do have the 'stuck' feeling youmention, but in my case I put it down to lack of compatible chemistry.[JUDY on IAN:]> I have spent a long time accepting that Ian is the way he is and I cant mould him into a loving, socially aware, small talker and giver of gifts. And we know there is more to a two way relationship than that.JOHN ON SELF: Smalltalk feels like a waste of time and energy to me,and gifting feels like a waste of money. No, we're not quite on thebreadline yet, but when it comes to any kind of luxury spending, forthe little we have, I think as individuals, we have a better ideaourselves of how we'd like to spend it, than relying on a spouse'sjudgement.[JUDY on IAN:]>

However, he is loyal, caring and funny, and he sticks by me no matter what. He is very boyish and cant do a practical thing to save his life. So I am the fixer, of everything from his social gaffs (laughing heartily at a private joke at my mother's funeral, saying inappropriate things) to putting the tiles on the roof.JOHN ON SELF: I don't see myself as being funny. A bit 'clever'perhaps? But with minimal social contacts, how would I know? SeemsI'm more self-sufficient, independent and practical. I can cook andclean for myself if I have to, and I spent over 6 months of last yearliving an independent life in other countries.[JUDY on IAN:]> It may then sound as though this is a fruitless 'task'. Its not, although I have alienated a lot of people in my family by staying with Ian, who they see as someone who is rude, artless and selfish. This is his image when he is trying to prove himself to new people, he thinks he is

being assertive and showing them whats what. He hates to be ignored or dismissed.JOHN ON SELF: I'm not sure about selfish but certainly self-centred.Aren't we all self-centred to a degree? I don't have much of anopportunity to meet new people, so the issue of proving myself rarelyarises. However if it does arise, and if I know I'm right, then I willbe assertive.[JUDY on IAN:]> His AS make up does include OCD, and this brings the negative thoughts, and constant picking over of scenarios, so he cant relax - he is continually scared of 'what if' and he is a nervous wreck who cant take change or heavy emotion. I know that I fall into the trap of enabler and carer. The OCD contributes a lot to his meltdowns, when I am there to ease him into calmness.JOHN ON SELF: This isn't such a serious issue with me, but I do need toexplore the "what ifs" and this can sometimes lead me into unnecessaryworrying and

negativity.[JUDY on IAN:]> Sometimes I think he must have a joyless existence, his life revolves around coping in an NT world, that he makes things hard for himself, that he isnt carefree. He says he is jealous of my ability to make friends, to chat away, and have a range of social interests.JOHN ON SELF: Yes, I admit my current life does lack joy. But OTOH Iequate being carefree to not watching where I put my feet as I walk, soit's better to keep on the lookout rather than step in some dogshit. Asfor diverse social interests, I can only see them as being as strong asthe common interests I share with those social contacts, so that's wheremy limitation arises.[JUDY on IAN:]> I tell him that these friends are sometimes people I see because of my lifestyle, and they wouldnt rescue you from a burning building. That sometimes quality should surpass quantity. His friends, few as they may be, like him for

what he is, and the whiff of the 'emperors new clothes' doesnt adhere to his circle. They like him for him.JOHN ON SELF: Yes, I'd say I'm mostly with Ian on this one. It's notclear to me what the purpose of this "lifestyle" you mention, actuallyis. I would have said quality should always surpass quantity (didn'treally get this point).[JUDY on IAN:]> I wish that Ian could see how good he is and how liked he is; and that he doesnt have to be acceptable to NT's. I am what I am, and he is what he is. He strives to prove to me that he is worth something, but I already know. He tries so hard to fit in, but at the same time he resents that he wishes to fit in. For him, I would wish that he stops trying and just accepts that:JOHN ON SELF: Since my diagnosis 2 years ago, I've given up trying toconform because I now realise it's an unachievable task that leechesaway at my character. Just occasionally, I do meet people

who like meas I am, but on the whole my eccentricity leaves me lonely.[JUDY on IAN:]> - he cant go into busy places because he has Sensory Processing issues (noise, smell, sounds, lights), so its OK not to go there in the first place; why put yourself through that?JOHN ON SELF: Not much of an issue with me, but I do hate places whereloud pop music's being played. It's recognised as being damaging tothe ears.[JUDY on IAN:]> - he cant make small talk, and if he tries, he often uses tried and tested phrases which may or may not work this time around; so dont make a false front, just be yourself, and if others dont like it, toughJOHN ON SELF: I can manage some smalltalk if it's an unavoidable leadupto something I do want to talk about, but without that incentive itfeels pointless to me. I think I've learned to be myself, but thedownside of this manifests itself as more silence and loneliness

thanmost people would be comfortable with.[JUDY on IAN:]> - he thinks his jokes are great, but cant gauge the appropriate time to say them! But he cant see it, so I have to nudge him in the ribs, and say, dont try so hard to be likedJOHN ON SELF: Funny, but I've never been able to think of any jokeswhen an appropriate time comes. Somehow the pressure to come up withsomething pushes any joke memories I might have right away.[JUDY on IAN:]> - he does charm people, he is funny, he is lovely, when he isnt trying hard to fit the mould, but then he cant then believe in himself, because of the fact that he gets it wrong on other occasions. This he blames on the recipient of the inappropriate remark, rather than himselfJOHN ON SELF: I wouldn't know whether I'd charm people or not because Iso rarely meet any. I don't have much self-confidence as a result, andthere's the Aspie trait of self-deprecation

besides.[JUDY on IAN:]> - he believes he is always right!JOHN ON SELF: Haha! Me too! But in my case it's true because Idon't open my mouth at all unless I know I'm right!![JUDY on IAN:]> - he can be cruel and nasty to me, like a hurt child in a tantrum, just as with his meltdowns, its because he is frustrated at not being able to read a situation and again, he resents me for seemingly being able to weave my way through NT-world with ease. (Not so!)JOHN ON SELF: My reaction to perceived wrongs perpetrated against me isnot immediate. It's very long term, and in those cases I hold somevery big grudges. In the short term, there's no visible reaction; Icontinue to act normally whilst quietly gathering more evidence againstthe perpetrator.[JUDY on IAN:]> If Ian accepts that he is OK and he doesnt need to prove himself to me or anyone else, then he could be a lot easier to live with.

However, his natural inclination is to take a defensive stance and to protect himself at all times. Hence the assessment by others that he is selfish and manipulative. And I whinge. Which is where we came in.JOHN ON SELF: I never saw the point of trying to prove myself except byhard work, perseverance and use of my knowledge and intelligence,because 'short cut' proofs simply don't work. Consequently I don't evenattempt to run the rat race in lots of areas. I argue that taking adefensive stance is only appropriate if you have adequate weapons todefend yourself.[JUDY on IAN:]> I try not to take all the AS traits he shows, personally - he genuinely cant go to parties or into restaurants without feeling assaulted. I can go on my own and enjoy myself more.JOHN ON SELF: I can enjoy restaurants and small dinner parties if thecompany is compatible, but that's a big "if" because in case of mostparticipants,

they're not. With the exception of small open-airrestaurants by the roadside in Thailand, which are just fine,conventional restaurants, especially in UK, feel like an expensiveripoff to me.[JUDY on IAN:]> I know he forgets my birthday and important stuff, but if its his own birthday, woe betide. But I can remind him, and give him the date, time and place of my own birthday arrangements.JOHN ON SELF: We don't observe birthdays or Christmas or weddinganniversary at all. My birthday comes just a few days in advance ofmy wife's each year, so the rot first set in when she forgot mine. Tobe honest I don't really know what all these ceremonies achieve in thelong run.[JUDY on IAN:]> He wont buy me flowers or presents or learn how to cook himself a meal, but he will buy me my favourite author's new book on a whim. He wont make me rich, help with the housework, or want to put his arm around me very

often, but he does know that he doesnt do that... and I cant script him to do so, which is half the battle of understanding our own limitations. The other half is for me to accept this, and not force him into a place he cant navigate, that of spontaniety and effusive affection. Its a darn shame, and I feel isolated a lot of the time, but I wouldnt be here if I didnt love him for the person he really is.JOHN ON SELF: Cut flowers just wither and die, but I'm OK with plantingsome in the garden. I can and do cook for myself when I have to, butI have to plan and buy stuff in and be in control of the kitchen forthat, and I really prefer it if someone else does all that. I can'tput my arm around my wife at all nowadays. In fact I shrink when sheapproaches closely.[JUDY on IAN:]> He is abrupt with me because he is frightened of getting it all wrong. And lashes out with his tongue, and I say, dont shoot the messenger,

pal.JOHN'S COMMENT: Hmmm... I don't really understand that reaction. Howdoes being abrupt help to get it right? There must be some kind ofreasoning behind it, though.[JUDY on IAN:]> His own childhood horrors and lack of affection has given him a chip or seventy on his shoulder, so I would recommend CBT to anyone who has the same damage, not all AS'ers are happy children and lack of diagnosis and understanding would force them into a corner. This must mar their view of life.JOHN ON SELF: This is not the scenario in my case, but I'm happy toaccept your explanation. I had an unusual childhood myself because Ilost my parents in WW2 and was brought up by two sets of grandparents.It wasn't bad. Rather than having any chips on my shoulders, I'd saythey tied helium balloons on to them![JUDY on IAN:]> Trying to put my own stance of trying hard to please, which I was brought up to do, against Ian's

fight with himself and others, has been non productive, all that has happened is that I was a doormat to his overly strong personality, which he developed as a force field against the NT world. I have to stand my ground, and appeal to his superiority by saying, I can speak NT, respect my views. and I can help the world to come to you.JOHN ON SELF: I dunno, could you perhaps be enabling his issues bybending over too far, trying to please? I know in my case that myindependence is far more important to me than my comfort and moreimportant than always having meals placed in front of me (although I dolike having my meals brought!). I don't believe my survival andself-preservation instincts have been in anyway diminished by myaspieness, and if I have to cope, I will. Learning all about copinghas always been important to me. Is that important to Ian, d'youthink? What would happen if you weren't there to cook for him for

afew days? Does he know where the tin-opener's kept?[JUDY on IAN:]> Finally, Ian struggles daily, and life is hard for him. He translates this into rage, hurts, and disdain for others. Nurturing is not in his mindset because he wasnt nurtured. So our lessons are on what we both like and wish for one another.JOHN'S COMMENT: But what would happen if for some reason he was left onhis own for a spell? If there weren't any others around for him todisplay his rage and disdain upon? Would he still suffer meltdowns andrages by himself? Or is it possible than his intelligence andself-preservation instincts might just kick in?Well there we are! If you thought yours was a long post, thisresponse must have just about doubled it. Oh well, I can blame it onour well-known Aspie trait of long-windedness!

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 at 16:36:51 -0700 (PDT), Sandy Culp wrote:

> I am curious about 's comments regarding the lack of chemistry with

> his wife. Was it always that way? Or did it slowly become that way over

> time? Is it related to the evolution of one's AS or something else?

Hi Sandy,

I should perhaps first explain that we're talking about my 2nd wife

here, who is from a totally different background, culture, country, and

speaks a different language to myself.

The chemistry between us was never very strong (we married for other

more pragmatic reasons), but what little there originally was plummeted

to zero about 6 years ago when she committed an act knowingly against my

will that did a lot to wreck my plans for the future. It wasn't a case

of familiarity breeding contempt, or the 7-year itch or a anything like

that; no, she committed a definite act for which I remain unforgiving

and that was what turned me right off. I admit it's quite likely that

my holding this big grudge is an Aspie trait showing up, but the

chemistry didn't just vanish by itself.

I don't see myself the same way Ron describes himself. AS may have some

effect on chemistry, but I'm not incapable of it. However for me,

several things need to come together for a successful relationship. The

first is a meeting of the minds - let's say a kind of common way of

thinking leading to common life aspirations. Then there's the

chemistry which I believe is partly triggered by the first, and after

that there's sexual attraction and compatibility which are in turn

triggered by the first two.

We know that when couples first meet and when they're courting, they're

both on their best behaviour trying to match their ways of thinking and

aspirations towards each other. If things work well they may actually

make permanent changes within themselves and really merge their ideas.

OTOH that best behaviour may fade after they've married and they may

revert back to their old behaviour and ways of thinking, so I believe

that can be a cause for chemistry to diminish. Aspies don't change

their ways of thinking so easily, so maybe for that reason they're more

prone to losing chemistry.

[Guest guest]

My husband and I have always had the most "chemistry" when I have entered his world for a while. He is into tractors and farming. When I go out to his shop and watch him work, even if I am talking about various things, that seems to help our relationship. It also seems to be a good way for me to tell him stuff because I don't expect his full attention and he can come in and out of the "conversation." He also doesn't have to look at me. When I help him a lot with his farming stuff, that also contributes to good feelings from him toward me.

I think what happens is I drift away from his interests. He doesn't join mine except to occasionally tell me how to do them.

So what you said about thinking along the same line seems to fit with my experience. I know he enjoys intellectual intimacy more than anything else and loves to debate issues. I can do that for a while, but after working all day, it gets tiresome for me. He loves to do that with our female neighbor and that has been a sore point for me at times. Yet I realize that is what's going on. I have tried to set some "rules" as to what I am comfortable with in terms of his engagement with her. She has a farm and has him do a lot of the work (for which she pays him). She also is widely read in some of the same areas as he. However, he assures me that he is not interested in her in other ways and I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. I am also friends with her and we have a good time together.

So it's a challenge. We do find things to discuss but not as much as he would like. And he is not affectionate with me for 99% of the time.

Sandy> I am curious about 's comments regarding the lack of chemistry with> his wife. Was it always that way? Or did it slowly become that way over> time? Is it related to the evolution of one's AS or something else?Hi Sandy,I should perhaps first explain that we're talking about my 2nd wife here, who is from a totally different background, culture, country, and speaks a different language to myself.The chemistry between us was never very strong (we married for other more pragmatic reasons), but what little there originally was plummeted to zero about 6 years ago when she committed an act knowingly against my will that did a lot to wreck my plans for the future. It wasn't a case of familiarity breeding contempt, or the 7-year itch or a anything like that; no, she committed a definite act for which I remain

unforgiving and that was what turned me right off. I admit it's quite likely that my holding this big grudge is an Aspie trait showing up, but the chemistry didn't just vanish by itself.I don't see myself the same way Ron describes himself. AS may have some effect on chemistry, but I'm not incapable of it. However for me, several things need to come together for a successful relationship. The first is a meeting of the minds - let's say a kind of common way of thinking leading to common life aspirations. Then there's the chemistry which I believe is partly triggered by the first, and after that there's sexual attraction and compatibility which are in turn triggered by the first two.We know that when couples first meet and when they're courting, they're both on their best behaviour trying to match their ways of thinking and aspirations towards each other. If things work well they may actually

make permanent changes within themselves and really merge their ideas. OTOH that best behaviour may fade after they've married and they may revert back to their old behaviour and ways of thinking, so I believe that can be a cause for chemistry to diminish. Aspies don't change their ways of thinking so easily, so maybe for that reason they're more prone to losing chemistry.