Re: Re: beginner diet questions

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 07/23/2000 11:44:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

whimsy2@... writes:

<< Does it have to do with the fact that I'm insulin-sensitive and most

of you are insulin-resistent? >>

It sure looks that way to me, you lucky dog!! What is the lowest weight you

have ever been at 5'8 " ? Just curious how low you could go. Do you not want

to lose more weight because you think..

1. You would have to buy new clothes?

2. You would look older?

3. A wind would knock you down?

Please, enlighten me on this. If you are really worried about getting too

skinny we could get together and I could donate some of my fat (OK, you can

have all of it) and then I could see what it would be like to be in your

shoes.

<<I'm probably clogging my arteries up with

all the high-fat cheeses, nuts, cream that I'm eating trying to keep my

weight up without eating a lot of carbs and sweets. :-( Vicki

>>

You have read Bernstein's take on this haven't you? Pages 112-116

BTW Vicki, have you had an A1c lately? Just curious to see how it is going

with Ron as your insulin coach. At least I have not heard about you having

any more of those lows like you used to. Yea!

Meniowl@...

type2,dx7/99,low-carbs & water aerobics

(last A1c 5.3)

[Guest guest]

Bob

> most of what you say is cool, but you seem awfully

> dogmatic.

You are right, of course - it is not my usual style. But I was not trying to

be " cool " (although I am not too sure what that is in the context of weight

loss, a very uncool subject, basically). I have been looking through the

weight loss sites on the Internet and I find that most people with anything

to say on the subject write in that same " dogmatic " style, making no real

attempt to justify what they are saying - just passing it off as the eternal

truth, ask no questions. The few people that I have posed simple questions

to, just don't answer or simply give me some more dogma.

For example, you will often see the recommendation (no, the instruction) to

feed yourself in accordance with the Food Guide Pyramid. All right, I

believe in the Food Guide Pyramid myself but it is an act of faith, not of

conviction. When I ask one of the gurus if that famous Food Guide Pyramid

has ever been tested on a large scale and where can I find the study report

all I get back is: " You should choose one item from each food group and

include as much variety as possible. " I am now convinced that this is a

monumental uncontrolled experiment that could have far-reaching consequences

for all of us and nobody appears to have tested it, even on a small scale,

before passing it off on us as science. You won't find anything much more

dogmatic than that.

I am also convinced that there is a widespread belief that overweight people

should be treated like little children. We don't have to have anything

explained to us, we just need a firm hand and clear instructions how to

proceed. All we have to do is to pull ourselves together and ensure that our

energy intake in kilocalories is significantly less than our energy

expenditure also in kilocalories. Yet nobody offers an accurate and

verifiable way of measuring either of those quantities so how are we

supposed to fit that into our daily life?

Not even the manufacturers of food products measure the energy content,

most of them just seem to look it up in a book of standard values. When

they are buying-in raw materials from their suppliers, I understand that

they often have the exact content analyzed and checked by an

independent laboratory just so they won't get robbed because they

cannot trust the accuracy of their supplier's claims or invoices.

> If you start with a grilled chicken sandwich and

> throw away the bread, this might be OK. It's better

> than letting yourself get so hungry you feel bad or

> eat something really bad.

I can't accept that - that is not the way to live. If you live an orderly

life and make careful planning that kind of situation shouldn't arise. If

you just take off on a trip without making arrangements and rely on coming

across a Mcs or a KFC on the way then you are digging your own grave.

I am told that Mc's will supply any customer on demand with a

nutritional statement of everything they sell. One day I am going to call by

and ask for the complete set just to see if that is true. Jay Leno the other

day, quoting from a newspaper report, asked the question: " In all recorded

history, which animal has killed the most human beings? No, not the

alligator, not the tiger or the wolf, the answer is: the fried chicken! " .

I believe that - eating that stuff IS eating " something really bad " !

Mc's main target is the teenager - I cannot see how their actions are

so very much better than those of the tobacco companies, both of them are

out to get young people hooked on their dangerous products.

> Many different sources advocate that having

> more frequent, smaller meals is better than

> having less frequent larger meals.

Sure, I have seen those. I have also seen just as many advising against

eating snacks and claiming that the 3-meal day is the optimum. None of them

seem to be able to support those ideas with any experimental evidence. But

if you do what Anne does, i.e. you don't start to eat until your BG is down

far enough then it makes sense not to eat snacks. If you don't measure

before starting to eat then nobody will ever know what your BG was anyway.

If you wait 5 hours between meals you don't even need to measure because

your BG is almost certain to be down by then. If you eat some crazy snack in

between then it could be anywhere.

I have tested myself by dividing my breakfast up into 8 small equal portions

and measuring the total area under the separate BG curves compared with the

area under the BG curve from eating the same breakfast all at once. The

total area of the separate 1/8 breakfast parts was over 8000 mg/dl/minutes

whereas the same breakfast eaten all at once was only about 3500

mg/dl/minutes, i.e. there is a high fixed BG overhead per meal regardless of

how large or small the meal is. Until I see anything convincing to the

contrary, I am convinced that 3 widely-spaced full meals is the way to go.

> Snacks should be eaten with due regard to carb

> content, glycemic index (if you follow that), fat and

> protein content, and total caloric content.

Sounds good but there YOU go now with that old dogmatic " should " ! It IS

catching, isn't it? Who says I should and what is the factual basis for the

injunction? I find that as soon as I keep book of what I am eating with all

those figures, I automatically eat less. If I set out to keep a full record

of what I eat in a day and weigh it all and then calculate the balances then

I don't have much time for anything else and I am pretty sure that I am

unconsciously steering the result to make it look good. Next day when I am

not keeping any records, who knows what the totals are? The whole point of a

quick snack is that you can get it down on-the-fly. Assessing all those

figures would take all the fun out of a day's snacks, I feel sure.

> I think that if you consistently started and ended your

> days later than most, the body would adapt with no

> problems. Studies show it's the wide variations in

> sleep cycles (such as from rotating shifts) which are most

> harmful.

Most harmful to the brain waves, maybe, but have you seen any studies about

the affect of irregular or late meals on a diabetes patient's glucose

household and fat metabolism? My diabetes seems to expect a good night's

sleep. I wouldn't want a " dawn effect " at 3 in the afternoon. I never saw

anybody claim that their " dawn effect " adjusts itself to their late hours

but the fact that there is one seems to indicate the the liver knows what

time it is. My fat metabolism seems to shut down at about 11 p.m. and to

start up again at about 4 a.m. whatever time I actually go to sleep.

If I eat a fatty meal round midnight (I did at one time eat like that), I

get woken at 4 a.m. with racing pulse from my gas-filled stomach

pressing against my heart. If I get up and walk about for about 20 minutes,

my pulse subsides after some heavy belching. Not everybody has their

stomach and heart in the same relative places, of course, but I never

saw any studies on that kind of effect yet. Please let me know if you locate

anything.

> Exercise helps beat this. It's generally impossible

> to maintain the _rate_ of weight loss seen when you

> initially improve your eating practices, but weight loss

> can continue. Exercise fights the body's tendency to slow

> the metabolism.

I can't confirm that - I am stuck hard at 88 kg (194 lb) since mid-June.

That is down 10% on my starting weight. Some years ago I spent many years at

88 kg. Within reason, no amount of intake reduction or increased exercise

has any effect. I am told by our local nutrition service that I shouldn't

even try - it brings nothing health-wise and could do harm.

They say that my body has already shut down 10% of my basic energy

consumption to combat the weight loss to date and can go down another 16% if

pushed but that would be a health risk so I am told to switch to (and be

happy with) maintenance from now on. They say the body regulates the energy

intake/output with several different mechanisms, including hormones to make

me throw caution to the winds and eat without even noticing what is going

down.

It can also dismantle my muscle tissue, if necessary, to prevent me

using up extra energy and completely frustrate my attempts to exercise any

more weight away. The problem is that I cannot control which muscles are

being trashed; it could be some that I might think I could still need but

are not required for just staying alive. I have not been able to find any

study reports on those ideas but they explain a lot of strange effects.

Thanks for the comments, Bob. I will look into the aspect of body fat

measurement accuracy, your reference for information on the fat-burning

enzymes and your request for documentation of my computer-trance originated

kidney damage claim.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-07-23 15:15:00 EDT, you write:

<<

<< Does it have to do with the fact that I'm insulin-sensitive and most

of you are insulin-resistent? >>

It sure looks that way to me, you lucky dog!! What is the lowest weight you

have ever been at 5'8 " ? Just curious how low you could go. Do you not want

to lose more weight because you think..

1. You would have to buy new clothes?

2. You would look older?

3. A wind would knock you down?

>>>

Actually, this 118 is the lowest I've ever been in my life (except maybe when

I was 12 years old and shooting up to my full growth) Don't want to lose more

weight because

of health reasons. I'm feeling fine and energetic at this point still but

worried that if I lose much more I won't. Interestingly, tho I'm thin, my

belly is a bit protuberant even tho I try to suck it in. I think that's a

function of age, unfortunately. I suppose I could do some tummy exercises and

try to strengthen the muscles there...

Please, enlighten me on this. If you are really worried about getting too

skinny we could get together and I could donate some of my fat (OK, you can

have all of it) and then I could see what it would be like to be in your

shoes.

>>

Right. And you know, at one point in my life (about two years pre diagnosis)

I was actually up to 160 and looking definitely big and plumpish. I'd just

about decided to accept the fact that I was overweight (hated the diet

thought) but then for some reason decided not to after all. Went on low fat

diet and exercise regime and actually got down to 140 before I stalled. Then

came diagnosis...and low carb...and rest of weight loss.

<<I'm probably clogging my arteries up with

all the high-fat cheeses, nuts, cream that I'm eating trying to keep my

weight up without eating a lot of carbs and sweets. :-( Vicki

>>

You have read Bernstein's take on this haven't you? Pages 112-116

'

I have but not recently. I'll read it today. thanks.

BTW Vicki, have you had an A1c lately? Just curious to see how it is going

with Ron as your insulin coach. At least I have not heard about you having

any more of those lows like you used to. Yea!

right, no more lows for a long time now. The last A1C was high (7.1) because

Ron is leading me down the garden path in a very conservative way. We got

good numbers for about two weeks then something -- and neither of us know why

-- changed and I started having a run of Very High numbers. And it took

weeks to work things out, which included lots of fasting and " clean meals "

((meaning starting a meal with no insulin and no protein working. For me,

that turned out to be 6-1/2 hours instead orf the usual 3-4 using H)...so in

order to not have to stay up till past midnight to check bedtime BG , I

started skipping breakfast, having " lunch " at 10 a.m. and " dinner " at 4:30,

carefully noting everything I ate along with its carb counts as well as

protein, fiber, arginine, GI, etc. And using the computer program he

designed for me (I'm so math impaired that every time I tried to do it

manually I goofed!) Finally finished up on that the other day -- and today's

the first day without metformin. So numbers will doubtless creep up again

until we figure out the correct U revision. This may take another few weeks,

depending on how things go. It's been a Real Challenge --but the End Is In

Sight, I think.

Ron says my diabetes is the most complicated he's ever worked with. (Why do I

get to be so lucky?) Vicki

>>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 07/24/2000 6:24:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

whimsy2@... writes:

<< Interestingly, tho I'm thin, my

belly is a bit protuberant even tho I try to suck it in. I think that's a

function of age, unfortunately. I suppose I could do some tummy exercises

and

try to strengthen the muscles there...>>

Could it be a hernia? I have found out I have one above my belly button. I

wondered why when from laying down on my back and sitting up, like doing a

partial sit up, my belly area would from a peak, like a tent.

<<Ron says my diabetes is the most complicated he's ever worked with. (Why

do I

get to be so lucky?) Vicki >>

I told you before Vicki that it's because you are so special! = )

Meniowl@...

type2,dx7/99,low-carbs & water aerobics

(last A1c 5.3)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-07-24 14:32:07 EDT, you write:

<<

Could it be a hernia? I have found out I have one above my belly button. I

wondered why when from laying down on my back and sitting up, like doing a

partial sit up, my belly area would from a peak, like a tent.

>>

Now that's an interesting thought. I do notice that when I go to bed, lay

down and look at down at my belly there does seem to be a protrusion

sometimes... thought it was just gas. Do hernias hurt? I have no pain. And

this is always below the bellybutton. It's not always there.

[Guest guest]

<< How come low-carbing makes me lose weight (who doesn't need to lose it)

but

so many on this list who are low-carbing can't seem to lose past a certain

point? Does it have to do with the fact that I'm insulin-sensitive and most

of you are insulin-resistent? >>

The explanation I've heard is that approx. 85% of type 2's are Syndrome

X-ers, meaning we have too much circulating insulin. Dr. Atkins says that,

since insulin is a growth hormone, once we are all grown UP, that extra

insulin makes us grow OUT.

Susie

[Guest guest]

Thornton wrote:

<< I never saw anybody claim that their " dawn effect " adjusts itself to

their late hours but the fact that there is one seems to indicate the the

liver knows what time it is. >>

Ron Sebol did some self-experiments and received input from other members of

LC-DIABETES regarding this subject. He finally concluded that it was the act

of the " feet hitting the floor " that caused glucose levels to spike

somewhat - regardless of what time of day the person got out of bed. (These

experiments included testing upon standing up for nighttime bathroom trips,

testing without getting out of bed in the morning, etc.)

<< If I eat a fatty meal round midnight (I did at one time eat like that), I

get woken at 4 a.m. with racing pulse from my gas-filled stomach pressing

against my heart. >>

It might be the carbs in that meal doing that to you, rather than the fats.

Insulin and adrenalin are first cousins. You might want to check your

glucose level the next time you find your pulse racing following a meal.

Likewise, many of us saw welcome relief from indigestion, gastro-esophageal

reflux disease, etc., after we lowered our intake of processed grains. I

can't eat much fat. I just find it disgusting. But it's the carbs that make

my pulse race, as if I had taken a drug. It can begin in as little as a

half-hour after eating something really carby like pasta.

Susie