Re: Hurting another human being?

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Am 25.06.2007 um 00:08 schrieb Bjørnerud:

> Sorry wrong toppic before..

>

> 2007/6/25, Bjørnerud :

>> Hi!

>>

>> writes in her book that no one has ever hurt anyone. No one has

>> ever done anything terrible. I don't understand this but I can

>> imagine

>> that if I did, so that I could believe it, that would feel real

>> peacefull.

Yes, it's a nice place to be in.

>> I often has thoughts that tells me other people treat me

>> badly, they do this and that to me, they say things to me that hurt

>> me.

Good! Investigate these thoughts.

>> And that leavs me feeling out of control, and I think I often ends

>> ut in situations that I just have to sit and take whatever other

>> people say to me og what I think they do to me, failing me and so on.

Put what they do to you on paper and investigate whether they should

do anything different.

>> Helpless. I know my thoughts are not true to me because I feel stress

>> when I think them. But I dont know how to talk myself out of it, or

>> void getting into situations where I feel people can say or do

>> whatever they like to me and there is nothing I can do about it.

You don't talk yourself out of it. You judge them. On paper. It's

what you are doing in your mind, anyway.

>> To put things on the edge; when someone uses force on another person,

>> physical force. Isn't that doing something terrible to another human

>> being? Isn't that hurting another? What don't I understand? I would

>> really like to know the thinking that could bring peace understanding

>> and love around thoughts like this.

Physical pain is not necessary for you to suffer, is it?

And do you always suffer, when you experience physical pain?

If I go to the dentist and he finds he should work on my teeth, he

does that, and potentially inflicts quite a lot of physical pain on

my body. But I don't suffer. Because I don't think: " this bad, bad

person hurts me " .

Find what's the difference between experiencing pain at the dentists,

and ... being beaten up. Or whatever it is, you experience as

physical force - maybe even only in our mind.

When you have done that you can analyze what's your part. What it is,

you can take care of, whithout the world having to change.

>>

Love,

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> writes in her book that no one has ever hurt anyone. No one has

> ever done anything terrible.

[FCB] also says that no two people ever met. She usually follows it up

with " I meet my story of you. You meet your story of me. " But it could also

be an allusion to the idea that no one is actually separate.

She also says that true forgiveness is the recognition that what I thought

happened didn't. If this world is indeed a dream. of separation, that will

be awakened from, then what happens in a dream is not significant. You can't

sanely hold a grudge against me for what I did to you in a dream. If I were

responsible for what I have done in my dreams I would be buried in a

mountain of paternity suits. unless, of course I dreamed that I had a

vasectomy first. But the whole subject is patently silly.

Another take on this comes from the recognition that our pain doesn't come

from what someone did to us, but rather from the story that we tell about

what they did, and what it means. For instance: one person gets hurt by

rejection and lives a lifetime of painful rejection. Another sees rejection

as just part of the process of them getting what they want, and they lead a

life with the same degree of rejection but suffer not.

> I don't understand this but I can imagine

> that if I did, so that I could believe it, that would feel real

> peacefull. I often has thoughts that tells me other people treat me

> badly, they do this and that to me, they say things to me that hurt

> me. And that leavs me feeling out of control, and I think I often ends

> ut in situations that I just have to sit and take whatever other

> people say to me og what I think they do to me, failing me and so on.

> Helpless. I know my thoughts are not true to me because I feel stress

> when I think them. But I dont know how to talk myself out of it, or

> void getting into situations where I feel people can say or do

> whatever they like to me and there is nothing I can do about it.

[FCB] This " What Is " that we seek to love also includes you when you don't

know how to talk yourself out of how you feel.

I'll invite you to consider this. I believe that eventually, it all works

out; everybody wakes up, everybody gets it, no one is left out; all ends

well. We have that adage that all is well that ends well. Also the game

isn't over till it's over. And if the outcome of the game is that we win,

then everything that happens between the beginning of time and the happy

ending is just what happened, and it could be argued that it was necessary

in order to eventually reach the happy ending.

>

> To put things on the edge; when someone uses force on another person,

> physical force. Isn't that doing something terrible to another human

> being? Isn't that hurting another? What don't I understand? I would

> really like to know the thinking that could bring peace understanding

> and love around thoughts like this.

[FCB] Someone slaps me. Is it a bad thing?

They certainly used physical force and caused, at least, physical pain to

me. But whether it is bad or not, it entirely up to interpretation. Perhaps

I was behaving inappropriately and the slap was a beneficial correction that

would allow me to, ultimately, live a more peaceful life. Perhaps she saw

her jealous husband walk into the room with a gun, and knew that the only

way to save both our lives was to exhibit disdain for me in the moment.

Granted, it is a melodramatic scenario, but it is intended to make the point

that good/bad cannot be understood from a limited context. The most complete

or unlimited context would be an omniscient viewpoint. I think I'll wait

till I have that context to evaluate what is good and bad. 'Till then I just

can't know.

-frank

[Guest guest]

HI ,

Welcome.

Someone says something to me and later says the same thing to you. One of us

reacts angrily and the other does not.

The one that reacts thinks, " He made me angry. " It's not true. We react or don't

react. It has nothing to do with the one who said something.

Different people react very differently to identical circumstances based on

their own background, history etc. It has nothing to do with anyone else.

Hope that helps a little.

Vivian

Hurting another human being?

Sorry wrong toppic before..

2007/6/25, Bjørnerud :

> Hi!

>

> writes in her book that no one has ever hurt anyone. No one has

> ever done anything terrible. I don't understand this but I can imagine

> that if I did, so that I could believe it, that would feel real

> peacefull. I often has thoughts that tells me other people treat me

> badly, they do this and that to me, they say things to me that hurt

> me. And that leavs me feeling out of control, and I think I often ends

> ut in situations that I just have to sit and take whatever other

> people say to me og what I think they do to me, failing me and so on.

> Helpless. I know my thoughts are not true to me because I feel stress

> when I think them. But I dont know how to talk myself out of it, or

> void getting into situations where I feel people can say or do

> whatever they like to me and there is nothing I can do about it.

>

> To put things on the edge; when someone uses force on another person,

> physical force. Isn't that doing something terrible to another human

> being? Isn't that hurting another? What don't I understand? I would

> really like to know the thinking that could bring peace understanding

> and love around thoughts like this.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> To put things on the edge; when someone uses force on another

> person, physical force. Isn't that doing something terrible to

> another human being? Isn't that hurting another? What don't I

> understand? I would really like to know the thinking that could

> bring peace understanding and love around thoughts like this.

My 2 cents worth

When says that nothing terrible can be done to another person

she is speaking of how it appears from outside the dream, from the

perspective of God.

In the dream we hurt others all the time. Choosing to identify with

the ego thought system of specialness causes immense harm to others

both directly and indirectly. We pick and choose people to be

our " friends " based on what they can do for us. We use them to

protect our specialness, our special body, our special identity. We

do not really care about their interests except in so far as we can

use them to further our own selfish interests. Our " love " partners

are chosen because they fill something we think is lacking in us.

When they are no longer of value in protecting our specialness we

divorce them and find someone else who can. When you closely look at

it this is not a nice dream, we use and hurt others all the time in

order to protect and defend the safety of this separate special self

we call " I " .

" You think you are the home of evil, darkness and sin. You think if

anyone could see the truth about you he would be repelled, recoiling

from you as if from a poisonous snake. You think if what is true

about you were revealed to you, you would be struck with horror so

intense that you would rush to death by your own hand, living on

after seeing this being impossible " (W.p.I.93.1:1,2,3, )

[Guest guest]

christine..

frank and alexander .. i like your replies.. here..

also as katie would say.. if your hurt by someone.. they

could hurt you once.. and if you play it over and over

again in your head.. who is more merciful.. ??

the person who acted once..

or what we do to ourselves replaying it in our heads.

over and over..

She says what she likes about a slap is its over..

its in the past..

love, roslyn ..

>

> Hi ,

>

> > writes in her book that no one has ever hurt anyone. No one has

> > ever done anything terrible.

>

> [FCB] also says that no two people ever met. She usually

follows it up

> with " I meet my story of you. You meet your story of me. " But it

could also

> be an allusion to the idea that no one is actually separate.

>

> She also says that true forgiveness is the recognition that what I

thought

> happened didn't. If this world is indeed a dream. of separation,

that will

> be awakened from, then what happens in a dream is not significant.

You can't

> sanely hold a grudge against me for what I did to you in a dream. If

I were

> responsible for what I have done in my dreams I would be buried in a

> mountain of paternity suits. unless, of course I dreamed that I had a

> vasectomy first. But the whole subject is patently silly.

>

> Another take on this comes from the recognition that our pain

doesn't come

> from what someone did to us, but rather from the story that we tell

about

> what they did, and what it means. For instance: one person gets hurt by

> rejection and lives a lifetime of painful rejection. Another sees

rejection

> as just part of the process of them getting what they want, and they

lead a

> life with the same degree of rejection but suffer not.

>

> > I don't understand this but I can imagine

> > that if I did, so that I could believe it, that would feel real

> > peacefull. I often has thoughts that tells me other people treat me

> > badly, they do this and that to me, they say things to me that hurt

> > me. And that leavs me feeling out of control, and I think I often ends

> > ut in situations that I just have to sit and take whatever other

> > people say to me og what I think they do to me, failing me and so on.

> > Helpless. I know my thoughts are not true to me because I feel stress

> > when I think them. But I dont know how to talk myself out of it, or

> > void getting into situations where I feel people can say or do

> > whatever they like to me and there is nothing I can do about it.

>

> [FCB] This " What Is " that we seek to love also includes you when you

don't

> know how to talk yourself out of how you feel.

>

> I'll invite you to consider this. I believe that eventually, it all

works

> out; everybody wakes up, everybody gets it, no one is left out; all ends

> well. We have that adage that all is well that ends well. Also the game

> isn't over till it's over. And if the outcome of the game is that we

win,

> then everything that happens between the beginning of time and the happy

> ending is just what happened, and it could be argued that it was

necessary

> in order to eventually reach the happy ending.

> >

> > To put things on the edge; when someone uses force on another person,

> > physical force. Isn't that doing something terrible to another human

> > being? Isn't that hurting another? What don't I understand? I would

> > really like to know the thinking that could bring peace understanding

> > and love around thoughts like this.

>

> [FCB] Someone slaps me. Is it a bad thing?

>

> They certainly used physical force and caused, at least, physical

pain to

> me. But whether it is bad or not, it entirely up to interpretation.

Perhaps

> I was behaving inappropriately and the slap was a beneficial

correction that

> would allow me to, ultimately, live a more peaceful life. Perhaps

she saw

> her jealous husband walk into the room with a gun, and knew that the

only

> way to save both our lives was to exhibit disdain for me in the moment.

> Granted, it is a melodramatic scenario, but it is intended to make

the point

> that good/bad cannot be understood from a limited context. The most

complete

> or unlimited context would be an omniscient viewpoint. I think I'll wait

> till I have that context to evaluate what is good and bad. 'Till

then I just

> can't know.

>

> -frank

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi . Thanks for the thoughts. There's a lot of agreement here

and...

> writes in her book that no one has ever hurt anyone. No one

> has> ever done anything terrible.

[FCB] also says that no two people ever met. She usually follows

it up with " I meet my story of you. You meet your story of me. " But it

could also be an allusion to the idea that no one is actually separate.

*****Yes. And we can also note that there are (at least) two distinct

levels: the Absolute, which your last sentence points to and where

much of 's aim at describing, and the relative, the world of

apparent comings-and-goings, where things seem to happen. In that

world, which most of us think we inhabit, does operate out of the

notion of separation (duality). Your filling your belly does not make

my hunger disappear. In some sense, the separation, in this relative

world, functions. In other senses, it clearly doesn't. When someone

is lost and stops me anxiously asking for directions, and I am able to

supply them and see the anxiety leave his face, ... well ... I FEEL

good. And yet " my " anxiety was not the issue. Nothing changed for

me. All I did was " help " another. So why do I feel good and receive

the beneficial warm feeling from helping another (with no motivation

on my part other than to answer a question)? The answer lies in the

fact of NON-separation. That in the participation of relieving

suffering or upset " in " someone else, this part, Andy, of the Whole,

also experiences relief. It's a bond shared amongst sentient beings.

She also says that true forgiveness is the recognition that what I

thought happened didn't. If this world is indeed a dream. of

separation, that will be awakened from, then what happens in a dream

is not significant. You can't sanely hold a grudge against me for what

I did to you in a dream. If I were responsible for what I have done in

my dreams I would be buried in a mountain of paternity suits. unless,

of course I dreamed that I had a vasectomy first. But the whole

subject is patently silly.

*****A nice, droll, description of the Absolute. There is no

disagreement here. And yet there is also the relative (which is

nothing BUT the Absolute in some manifest form). But I can't ignore that.

Another take on this comes from the recognition that our pain doesn't

come from what someone did to us,

*****Not necessarily so for physical pain. Nor, in certain

circumstances, emotional pain (more on that one later). Regarding

physical pain, if a person comes up behind me and clobbers me on the

head with a 2 by 4, there is (in most circumstances) PHYSICAL pain.

While the pain was generated by " my body " ... it was in response to an

action generate by someone else, the one who wielded the 2 by 4. In

the most general sense, that pain did come from what that person did

to me.

but rather from the story that we tell about what they did, and what

it means.

*****Yes, certainly. That is secondary pain, emotional,

psychological, and it can be even MORE painful than the physical pain.

Unless one is speaking form the perspective of the Absolute, it is

inadequate to disregard entirely the causative nature of the initial

physical pain of being struck by a 2 x 4.

> To put things on the edge; when someone uses force on another

> person, physical force. Isn't that doing something terrible to

> another human being? Isn't that hurting another? What don't I

> understand? I would really like to know the thinking that could

> bring peace understanding and love around thoughts like this.

[FCB] Someone slaps me. Is it a bad thing?

They certainly used physical force and caused, at least, physical pain

to me. But whether it is bad or not, it entirely up to interpretation.

Perhaps I was behaving inappropriately and the slap was a beneficial

correction that would allow me to, ultimately, live a more peaceful

life. Perhaps she saw her jealous husband walk into the room with a

gun, and knew that the only way to save both our lives was to exhibit

disdain for me in the moment. Granted, it is a melodramatic scenario,

but it is intended to make the point that good/bad cannot be

understood from a limited context. The most complete or unlimited

context would be an omniscient viewpoint. I think I'll wait

till I have that context to evaluate what is good and bad. 'Till then

I just can't know.

*****RIGHT! I was thinking of the situation where one walks into a

room and sees a mother slap! a three-year-old girl across the face,

causing her to cry. My initial reaction is " bad thing " until I learn

that the child had only moments earlier attempted to stick her finger

into a live electrical socket. The mother wasn't angry, but

concerned, and the slap was a " lesson " (albeit there are other ways to

deliver such a lesson). Yes, , context: it's always a mater of

time, place, and circumstance.

But what about a person who genuinely gets some kick, perhaps some

pleasure, from consciously saying things in a public forum about

another person (who is present), with the expressed and conscious goal

of humiliating, embarrassing, or causing the other person some form of

emotional pain and shame? Yes, I am aware that the other person (the

recipient) is the " author " of the feelings of humiliation, shame,

embarrassment...that these emotional states NEED NOT happen when the

other person (the deliverer) speaks up. And at this moment, I would

like to focus on the person DOING the speaking, the deliverer.

I can't say it is or is not a " bad thing, " this conscious articulation

of hurtful things, but I wonder about the pleasure that the deliverer

gets from speaking in such a manner. There appear to be people who

derive some kind of ... pleasurable sensation ... at other's

misfortune, unhappiness, pain (usually emotional, sometimes even

physical). I know personally of several people who really get a

pleasurable kick! out of watching others get humiliated. I recognize,

on an Absolute perspective, that this is just another face of What IS.

And What IS, operates here, via this bodymind mechanism so-labeled

" Andy, " in a way that there is dislike of such behavior. I can trace

it to its source, a conditioned belief that " it is better to be kind

and nice to people than mean and cruel, " and a sense that life would

be much better if we were all living in a type of " garden of eden "

harmony with each other and the entire natural world. It is out of

that programming that these responses come. That is clear. And that

conditioning is a function of living in this relative world. But

seeing the " Bigger Picture " does not eradicate the programming which

is still present and operative, at least some of the

time...................except when I'm feeling mean-spirited and nasty

towards someone else! Hahaha!!!

[Guest guest]

----->Interesting dialogue . A few thoughts provoked...

I can't say it is or is not a " bad thing, " this conscious articulation

of hurtful things, but I wonder about the pleasure that the deliverer

gets from speaking in such a manner. There appear to be people who

derive some kind of ... pleasurable sensation ... at other's

misfortune, unhappiness, pain (usually emotional, sometimes even

physical). I know personally of several people who really get a

pleasurable kick! out of watching others get humiliated.

[FCB] Perhaps this is part of the attraction to public fights.

----->Yes, perhaps. Ultimately I find it most valuable to consider

the Source of it all.

I recognize, on an Absolute perspective, that this is just another

face of What IS. And What IS, operates here, via this bodymind

mechanism so-labeled " Andy, " in a way that there is dislike of such

behavior. I can trace it to its source, a conditioned belief that " it

is better to be kind and nice to people than mean and cruel, " and a

sense that life would be much better if we were all living in a type

of " garden of eden " harmony with each other and the entire natural

world. It is out of that programming that these responses come. That

is clear. And that conditioning is a function of living in this

relative world. But seeing the " Bigger Picture " does not eradicate the

programming which is still present and operative, at least some of the

time...................except when I'm feeling mean-spirited and nasty

towards someone else! Hahaha!!!

[FCB] Victim/Perpetrator: There are no one sided coins in the land of

duality.

----->Yes. And no one-sided sticks either. :-))

If you pick up (attach to) one polarity, you automatically attach

to its opposite in the same movement.

----->Again, for me, the fundamental question is: WHO is DOING all

these things? E.g., the automatic attachment you mention above. It

is insightful that you included " automatic " because that is what it

is: stimulus-response. The illusion being that there is some " one "

who is DOING all these things. Yes, they appear to happen, and

apparently happen " through " a bodymind mechanism. The question is:

could that bodymind mechanism have performed differently given its

nature, its innate conditioning-at-that-moment? This is not the same

as determinism (or fatalism): it just amounts to a recognition of the

inter-related nature of all phenomenality. For example, consider how

a " choice " or " decision " happening right now arises on the backs of

millions of previous choices, billions of previous events, trillions

of inter-connected aspects all happening at the *moment* of

" choice " ...so where, exactly is the " freedom " of the choice, or of any

choice? .... Krishnamurti was fond of pointing to " freedom FROM

thought, " not " freedom of thought.

Perhaps because Reality is constantly pointing toward fundamental

Oneness and that separation, even between polarities, is an illusion.

----->Perhaps. That is certainly one interpretation. I'm really

really hesitant to assert any motivation on the part of Reality. The

feeling here is to let It speak for ItSelf. :-)

[Guest guest]

> Actually, that's how we hurt ourselves.

>

> And it IS a nice dream. There is no nightmare.

>

is it really true that this is a nice dream?

Is separation a nice state?

Lets look at this a little bit more closely. To be " " , your

special, separate and unique self how many animals have to die daily

to feed that separate body of yours? Say you had bacon and eggs for

breakfast, well one pig was killed to make the bacon possible, and

the eggs probably came from a battery chicken farm where the chickens

live in wire cages for their entire lives. Now just think about how

many more animals died or are tortured to make your lunch and dinner

possible. In order to maintain your special body, the special bodies

of a great many other creatures must die that you can live. Now only

an insane person would think that that was a " nice " state of affairs

and only an even more insane person would believe that God (Love) had

anything to do with it.

Now lets look at your life itself. How have you chosen the " friends "

in your life? Hasn't it been solely based on how they can benefit the

special self you call ? Do you really care about the

interests of others except in so far as they can advance or protect

the interests of your special " I " . The dream of is not a

nice dream it's a dream of extreme selfishness, guilt, fear and

hatred. To be honest don't you also use the Work to protect the

separate dream of ? You don't really want the truth in which

there is no , your just hoping for a way to make your

separate " I " a little bit safer and secure.

IMHO the Work just removes the blocks to our awareness of Love's

presence. What is the biggest block to our awareness of Love? Our

attachment to the dream of separation in particular our attachment to

our special separate " I " who lives in a special separate world. When

people like look out and say that they see a beautiful world,

it's not because the world is really beautiful. What they see is the

Love which the world and bodies were made to conceal. When had

her awakening experience she had no grounding in metaphysics to

understand what was happening to her, so she makes a lot of

fundamental errors in describing her experiences. Thankfully we have

the core metaphysics of ACIM to make sense of what is really going on.

Hmmmm ..... so next time you bite into that juicy hamburger, and

think what a nice dream this is, spare a thought for just what makes

your separate body/self possible and how " nice " that really is!

" The world you see is an illusion of a world. God did not create it,

for what He creates must be eternal as Himself " (C.4.1:1,2).

" The world you see is the delusional system of those made mad by

guilt " (T-13.In.2:2)