Re: Re: Tapering sleep meds

[Guest guest]

Bonnie, you are correct on all your assumptions re: the drs and their motives.  Your w/d symptoms match mine also.  i have so many that i don't even recognize them until someone says theirs.  i discovered the agoraphobia months ago.  won't even go out and get the mail.  only go outside when absolutely have to.  anxiety, depression that is different than any other depression i've ever had.  weird.

i had been so sick before i went on it, then started abx for lyme, bart, babs, at the same time i started clon, didn't know symptoms  were the clon. until last april.  anxiety hits me often.  i wake at 4 and can't go back to sleep and my mind goes crazy with obsessive thinking, my view of life and others is distorted, and i don't want to want to do anything.  i was a workaholic and even though i was sick and tired, it seemed i was able to overcome it, as in 'mind over matter.' but i can't now, it's just too overwhelming.  the seizures i went through made a big change in me also.  kind of made me not care about anything, wanting to just give up.  hard to resume my treating with the coil and supps etc. 

my sister used to take ambien.  she has had memory lapses a lot that seem to me to have lingered long after she quit.  although, very occasionally she takes one. and she is really a smart person, but she just can't remember some things. but she is careful with it, never consistent use.

sounds like you have done your homework, so glad to hear it.  is there another dr you can go with.  ck with some drug w/d places to get a referral.  i don't know what the equivalent xanax is to valium and have not done any research on coming off the z drugs.  but if the valium dose isn't equivalent to xanax you will have a hard time crossing over and tapering.

how long have you been on the drugs?  what dose?  that will make a difference.  did you ask trap about the 10 mg. of valium and if you can go with that?  you'd think that if you told your dr. you wanted to get off the drugs and about the crossover amounts and that you will be reducing the valium with his guidance, he would see you're not just trying to get drugs. 

but you are right when you say they want your repeat business.  try some drug w/d places, tell them you are looking for a dr to help you get off these drugs and can they recommend someone who will work with you.  that may be your best bet. they want to help you get off them.  worth a shot anyway because it doesn't sound like yours is interested in you getting off.

keep in touch and let me know how you are doing.  you can contact me directly if you want or let others see what this stuff is like to work through.  i lost all my sense of privacy to help others so they don't have to go through what i did.  but that's just me, i'm not a very private person.  but my husband is so i understand when others not wanting to share openly.  i'm probably too open and i know i'm too wordy.  but that's just me.

take carebarbara 

 

> > > I am attempting to come off years of using ambien and recent increase in

> > > xanax for sleep. I have found a site called the trap and they have lots

> > of

> > > resources based on Dr Ashton from england. They are not quick to let one

> > > into the fold but have given some advice. They suggested crossing over to

> > > valium and then tapering down. Problem with that is my doc and I guess

> > most

> > > docs in the US dont want to give you valium. It has a longer 1/2 life and

> > > supposedly has less withdrawal if you taper very slowly. Anyone have any

> > > knowledge about this. I had no idea when I started how " habit forming "

> > and

> > > difficult to withdraw from the benzo's and Z(ambien, zolpidem) drugs

> > were.

> > > I also did not know I was so dependent on them until I tried to quit.

> > What I

> > > thought was reaction to not getting good sleep when I would try to stop

> > them

> > > was really a chemical dependence. It certainly seems a crime to give

> > someone

> > > that already has insomnia a pill with the side effects of increased

> > > insomnia. Sure it works for awhile, with terrible side effects of mental

> > > confusion, anxiety, digestive problems, but if you start taking more, you

> > > continually need more and you actually can get sick from not taking the

> > > increased amount.

> > >

> > > Bonnie

> > >

> > >Thanks for the responses. Barbara, I tried to go cold turkey and that was a big mistake. I had the worst anxiety attacks, agoraphobia, panic, nausea. Im not sure if it was the xanax or the ambien. What I did learn on the trap was that because ambien and even xanax has a short 1/2 life and if you try to just use it for sleep meds once a night you can be experiencing withdrawal effects every day. It really does change your personality. But like you say, the medical community is in great denial about these drugs. They shouldnt be prescribed for sleep. Even the Z drugs, which are similar to the benzo's, are hypnotics and are not suppose to be used for years. But many people do use them because they cant sleep. These drugs are tranquilizers! And all the years I thought it was the lyme causing the sleep problems, which in part it could be. But when I went off cold turkey and got as sick as I did, I knew it wasnt just the lyme. It was a physiological dependence. If you google and read how these drugs work on your body and CNS you will understand how much they change your natural chemistry, ruin your memory, disturb your sleep even more, etc, etc. Im not sure if I should taper the ambien or completely switch over to valium, then taper. The problem is my MD will only give me 10 mg of valium...so I am trying to not take another 1/2 ambien when I wake up at 4 am. In fact, since I am on the valium I am actually sleeping about 6 hours vs my regular 4 hours(and woke exhausted). I wonder if the doctors just dont know how these short acting drugs really affect people, or they dont care, or they know and what us to keep coming back so they can then put us on SSRI, antipsychotics, lithium...because now they think we are crazy because we are attempting to withdraw from " habit forming " drugs that cause terrible, even life threatening reactions.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bonnie,I just reread your post and noticed you said you wake up at 4 a.m.  That is when i wake up also, every morning.  then i lay there with obsessive thinking.  sometimes i can return to sleep about 7 or so.

I read in wilson's book on adrenal fatigue that he mentions waking at 4.  he said, if i remember correctly, that is not unusual.  there are some people who wake at 4, get up and do stuff, then return to bed and sleep from 7-9.  he said that the sleep from 7-9 is a very good time for sleep for those with adrenal fatigue. 

i have noticed that if i can get back to sleep, often that is when i can sleep.  i most always wake close to 9.  hmmmm.   wonder if there is something in the adrenals, drop or increase, that causes this 4 a.m. waking.  i know my cortisol levels are reversed.  i'm high in the evening and very low in the morning.  is 4 a transition time for cortisol levels??

does anyone have any info on this?  is there a correlation with this waking time?  the valium, which i'm still tapering off of,  has a longer half life than some of the benzos and i still wake at 4.  with out drugs, mostly i don't sleep, but waking early was always a problem with me.  my mom has the same problem, as many others do to.  so again, is there something with the adrenals being off that we wake early?

anyone????barbara

 

> > > I am attempting to come off years of using ambien and recent increase in

> > > xanax for sleep. I have found a site called the trap and they have lots

> > of

> > > resources based on Dr Ashton from england. They are not quick to let one

> > > into the fold but have given some advice. They suggested crossing over to

> > > valium and then tapering down. Problem with that is my doc and I guess

> > most

> > > docs in the US dont want to give you valium. It has a longer 1/2 life and

> > > supposedly has less withdrawal if you taper very slowly. Anyone have any

> > > knowledge about this. I had no idea when I started how " habit forming "

> > and

> > > difficult to withdraw from the benzo's and Z(ambien, zolpidem) drugs

> > were.

> > > I also did not know I was so dependent on them until I tried to quit.

> > What I

> > > thought was reaction to not getting good sleep when I would try to stop

> > them

> > > was really a chemical dependence. It certainly seems a crime to give

> > someone

> > > that already has insomnia a pill with the side effects of increased

> > > insomnia. Sure it works for awhile, with terrible side effects of mental

> > > confusion, anxiety, digestive problems, but if you start taking more, you

> > > continually need more and you actually can get sick from not taking the

> > > increased amount.

> > >

> > > Bonnie

> > >

> > >Thanks for the responses. Barbara, I tried to go cold turkey and that was a big mistake. I had the worst anxiety attacks, agoraphobia, panic, nausea. Im not sure if it was the xanax or the ambien. What I did learn on the trap was that because ambien and even xanax has a short 1/2 life and if you try to just use it for sleep meds once a night you can be experiencing withdrawal effects every day. It really does change your personality. But like you say, the medical community is in great denial about these drugs. They shouldnt be prescribed for sleep. Even the Z drugs, which are similar to the benzo's, are hypnotics and are not suppose to be used for years. But many people do use them because they cant sleep. These drugs are tranquilizers! And all the years I thought it was the lyme causing the sleep problems, which in part it could be. But when I went off cold turkey and got as sick as I did, I knew it wasnt just the lyme. It was a physiological dependence. If you google and read how these drugs work on your body and CNS you will understand how much they change your natural chemistry, ruin your memory, disturb your sleep even more, etc, etc. Im not sure if I should taper the ambien or completely switch over to valium, then taper. The problem is my MD will only give me 10 mg of valium...so I am trying to not take another 1/2 ambien when I wake up at 4 am. In fact, since I am on the valium I am actually sleeping about 6 hours vs my regular 4 hours(and woke exhausted). I wonder if the doctors just dont know how these short acting drugs really affect people, or they dont care, or they know and what us to keep coming back so they can then put us on SSRI, antipsychotics, lithium...because now they think we are crazy because we are attempting to withdraw from " habit forming " drugs that cause terrible, even life threatening reactions.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bonnie,I haven't posted in months on the forum (life has been crazy, my health good and bad). But, I wanted to post because you are right where I was at one year ago. Some of you might remember that I have been seeing a doctor who uses plant stem cell tinctures. (they are amazing).

Anyway, part of my protocol was to 'reset' my benzodiazapine receptors. For this I started taking California Poppy during the day (30 drops, 3x/day, empty stomach) and 100 drops of Linden Tree at bedtime (more is not better).  After being on these PSC for 6-8 weeks, I began to cut down on my meds. I was taking 10 mg Ambien and 1 mg of xanax.  I had my doc write the script for 2 (5mg) of Ambien (which the insurance fought each time) and 3-4 .25 xanax.  Since these pills are tiny, more of them at lower doses makes cutting small decreases easier. (A friend, even uses a nail file, I used a razor blade.)

So, on the night I would decrease my meds I would increase my one or more of my naturals (melatonin, L-ornithine, GABA, whatever works for you.) I would not decrease both meds - just one - by 1/10th-ishUsually, I would sleep that night but maybe wake up a few times.

The next night I would take the same dose of meds and naturals -- this night would usually be good sleep.Within 3-4 nights my sleep would be 'good' and I would start tappering down on the naturals to my 'acceptable dose'. (I am still on naturals)

At the two week mark, now sleeping good, I would repeat the process all over again:Tapper the ambien, by 1/10th - increase my naturals - rough night or two, then sleeping OK, then tappering naturals.After I was off the ambien, I did the same thing with xanax.

If i had a bad night and just couldn't sleep, I would take some benadryl or even an extra xanax, BUT the next night I would go right back to my previous night's dose.All in all it took me one year to wean. I believe the PSC were very helpful and the iodine really helped. My PSC are by prescription only, but if you google Gemmo you can order that brand (look for the latin names). PSC are very potent tinctures - I don't think anyone would get near the results with regular tinctures like HerbPharm, etc.

Other things I've found helpful: I do not eat after dinner - this is critical for me. Also, no caffeine, chocolate or sugar after 2p.m)30 minutes before bed, I make a cocktail of some water, iodine, Linden and magnesium. I take melatonin and L-tryptophan.

If I am desperately hungry - I'll eat 30 minutes after taking my supplements.I've also found that rotating other naturals helps - my body seems to build up a tolerance. I take an extremely high dose of melatonin - 60mg - it works for me.

As a side note: I had completed 3 months of taking MMS every hour of the waking day (well, just about) in September. I was doing pretty darn good. But did get rather toxic. Some thorough detoxing helped. Then I slacked off on the MMS. Around Thanksgiving I started going down hill fast with horrific brain fog. I detoxed, but that wasn't helping. Actually, I think that I over detoxed and wiped out my good stuff with the bad - this being apparent with almost psychotic thoughts. Went back on MMS, but didn't want to create too many more toxins- so I stopped. It finally dawned on me that liver was probably toxic as well, as my gut.

Right now, I'm doing a Hulda liver cleanse tonight. Will continue to work on my liver.Will be following the Body Ecology Diet to heal my leaky gut. I know this is a huge issue for me that I have not wanted to address. This diet focuses not only on anti-candida, but on fermented veggies (yuck, I'll learn to like) and coconut water kefir - doesn't sound too bad. The diet allows for some grains (well, seeds like quinoa, millet, amaranth), so I think I can follow it.

In about two weeks, I'll re-introduce MMS, slowly being sure to baby my liver and being vigilant on detoxing.I do see all your threads on my email daily and pray for your health. It's just one of those times in life, that I can't stretch myself too thin.

I do wish you all a very happy new year!

 

Thanks everyone for the posts. It does seem a hard call whether to switch to valium or taper from ambien and xanax. Logically, if valium stays in your system longer, it seems a better idea, especially if lack of sleep is the biggest issue. But then is valium really that much more addictive than xanax and ambien. I really dont know which is the worst of the evils. Sounds like what you were on, Barbara, was perhaps even worse. They all affect the CNS and the natural chemistry of the body. I have spent one week just keeping a record of exactly what I am taking and when.

> > > > I am attempting to come off years of using ambien and recent increase in

> > > > xanax for sleep. I have found a site called the trap and they have lots

> > > of

> > > > resources based on Dr Ashton from england. They are not quick to let one

> > > > into the fold but have given some advice. They suggested crossing over to

> > > > valium and then tapering down. Problem with that is my doc and I guess

> > > most

> > > > docs in the US dont want to give you valium. It has a longer 1/2 life and

> > > > supposedly has less withdrawal if you taper very slowly. Anyone have any

> > > > knowledge about this. I had no idea when I started how " habit forming "

> > > and

> > > > difficult to withdraw from the benzo's and Z(ambien, zolpidem) drugs

> > > were.

> > > > I also did not know I was so dependent on them until I tried to quit.

> > > What I

> > > > thought was reaction to not getting good sleep when I would try to stop

> > > them

> > > > was really a chemical dependence. It certainly seems a crime to give

> > > someone

> > > > that already has insomnia a pill with the side effects of increased

> > > > insomnia. Sure it works for awhile, with terrible side effects of mental

> > > > confusion, anxiety, digestive problems, but if you start taking more, you

> > > > continually need more and you actually can get sick from not taking the

> > > > increased amount.

> > > >

> > > > Bonnie

> > > >

> > > >Thanks for the responses. Barbara, I tried to go cold turkey and that was a big mistake. I had the worst anxiety attacks, agoraphobia, panic, nausea. Im not sure if it was the xanax or the ambien. What I did learn on the trap was that because ambien and even xanax has a short 1/2 life and if you try to just use it for sleep meds once a night you can be experiencing withdrawal effects every day. It really does change your personality. But like you say, the medical community is in great denial about these drugs. They shouldnt be prescribed for sleep. Even the Z drugs, which are similar to the benzo's, are hypnotics and are not suppose to be used for years. But many people do use them because they cant sleep. These drugs are tranquilizers! And all the years I thought it was the lyme causing the sleep problems, which in part it could be. But when I went off cold turkey and got as sick as I did, I knew it wasnt just the lyme. It was a physiological dependence. If you google and read how these drugs work on your body and CNS you will understand how much they change your natural chemistry, ruin your memory, disturb your sleep even more, etc, etc. Im not sure if I should taper the ambien or completely switch over to valium, then taper. The problem is my MD will only give me 10 mg of valium...so I am trying to not take another 1/2 ambien when I wake up at 4 am. In fact, since I am on the valium I am actually sleeping about 6 hours vs my regular 4 hours(and woke exhausted). I wonder if the doctors just dont know how these short acting drugs really affect people, or they dont care, or they know and what us to keep coming back so they can then put us on SSRI, antipsychotics, lithium...because now they think we are crazy because we are attempting to withdraw from " habit forming " drugs that cause terrible, even life threatening reactions.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>