Is analysis of mental pain always good?

[Guest guest]

If a physical wound didn't hurt, if a thorn,

nail, a piece of glass or other foreign object

that entered body didn't hurt, we may not notice

it, we may not pay any attention to it and it might

end up causing great help.

This way we can see that pain [including

mental pain] is a call for attention.

It is a call for awareness and consciousness,

for observation, examination and investigation.

And, in this way, pain when happens is " good "

i.e. pain that happens " should " happen - it

is the intrinsic intelligence at work.

However, in case of physical pain, we have seen

that even if suppress it by taking sedatives,

the wound does recover by itself [or by medicine]

if all else goes fine. In fact, taking 'sedatives'

sometimes help you " relax " which is often

very important for the effective recovery to take place.

What happens when you

'suppress' ['forget] mental pain? Does the same

thing happens as in physical pain i.e. you might

really forget it as the time passes?

[it is often said: Time heals every wound.]

In case of a physical wound, if you

keep 'opening it up' and 'examining' it

more than necessary - in many cases, you might

make it worse and greatly delay the recovery.

Do you think same thing happens with the mental

pain too? Does it become worse and recovery from

it delayed by 'over examination' and 'over analysis'?

To really examine a physical wound in order

to make it 'heal' one needs to be reasonably

well skilled and experienced else you might do

more harm than good. Does examining mental

wound to 'cure' it too requires good expertise,

skill and experience or can any amateur do

it well?

What is your experience?

[Guest guest]

>

>

> If a physical wound didn't hurt, if a thorn,

> nail, a piece of glass or other foreign object

> that entered body didn't hurt, we may not notice

> it, we may not pay any attention to it and it might

> end up causing great help.

I meant:

it might end up causing great " harm "

[not " help " ] -

>

> This way we can see that pain [including

> mental pain] is a call for attention.

> It is a call for awareness and consciousness,

> for observation, examination and investigation.

>

> And, in this way, pain when happens is " good "

> i.e. pain that happens " should " happen - it

> is the intrinsic intelligence at work.

>

> However, in case of physical pain, we have seen

> that even if suppress it by taking sedatives,

> the wound does recover by itself [or by medicine]

> if all else goes fine. In fact, taking 'sedatives'

> sometimes help you " relax " which is often

> very important for the effective recovery to take place.

>

> What happens when you

> 'suppress' ['forget] mental pain? Does the same

> thing happens as in physical pain i.e. you might

> really forget it as the time passes?

>

> [it is often said: Time heals every wound.]

>

>

> In case of a physical wound, if you

> keep 'opening it up' and 'examining' it

> more than necessary - in many cases, you might

> make it worse and greatly delay the recovery.

> Do you think same thing happens with the mental

> pain too? Does it become worse and recovery from

> it delayed by 'over examination' and 'over analysis'?

>

> To really examine a physical wound in order

> to make it 'heal' one needs to be reasonably

> well skilled and experienced else you might do

> more harm than good. Does examining mental

> wound to 'cure' it too requires good expertise,

> skill and experience or can any amateur do

> it well?

>

>

> What is your experience?

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Pandy,

Please don't keep quiet. I love having you here.

I gather these thoughts from what you write.

I don't enjoy having this pain.

I am not a masochist.

I am deeply convinced that I ought to do it all the same.

It (pain) is all I deserve.

Are any of these true? I would question these thoughts, especially the

thought: it is all I deserve.

Love, nne

Even supposing that I am the only one causing myself any (mental)

pain, while I don't enjoy having this pain (not a masochist), I am

deeply convinced that I ought to do it all the same, that is all I

deserve.

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your kind support and encouragement, nne, and also

for singling out the 'one-liners' for me to try doing the Work on.

Obviously I won't be inquiring on the first two thoughts, they are

absolutely true, for sure. As for the other two, I am too

pessimistic about the outcome. I know, if I don't feel motivated

enough to write it all down properly, it's my own funeral and I

shouldn't bother the Lovers with my insanity, but you see, I've tried

so many things, and nothing works, and here is the only place for

me. And both of those last statements have been true for me

practically all my life, and more often than not, I feel that's what

I was born for. When I try to think along the Work lines, I hear

some sinister voice telling me that can I know absolutely that I was

not born for that pain, and when I try to strip myself of any

thoughts, the 'real me' is still twisted. I am reading the book, by

the way, but it only adds to the confusion.

It is really nice to be here, and the anonymity of the place does

loosen the tongue a bit...

All the best,

>

> Dear Pandy,

>

> Please don't keep quiet. I love having you here.

>

> I gather these thoughts from what you write.

>

> I don't enjoy having this pain.

>

> I am not a masochist.

>

> I am deeply convinced that I ought to do it all the same.

>

> It (pain) is all I deserve.

>

> Are any of these true? I would question these thoughts, especially

the

> thought: it is all I deserve.

>

> Love, nne

>

>

>

> Even supposing that I am the only one causing myself any (mental)

> pain, while I don't enjoy having this pain (not a masochist), I am

> deeply convinced that I ought to do it all the same, that is all I

> deserve.

>

[Guest guest]

Hello there, , thank you for your ideas.

> > PS By the way, , on the other thread, started by

(I

> > hope she'll find the answers she is looking for), you implied (I

> > think)

> > that once she gave her friend money for the cruise, it wasn't hers

> > anymore. But how come, she didn't give it to him as a gift, she

gave

> > it to him to buy her share for her, surely there is a

difference?

> > Very

> > thick, me, it would seem...

> I don't know. But what was the deal? And was he aware of it? And

what

> was he to do, if it did not work out?

> And had it really been better, if he had sent it back?

I think it would have been better for , yes. I presume she,

or her parents, had to work hard to earn the money, and it would be a

fair deal if she could use it in order to restore herself from that

hard work.

Oh dear, I am totally hung up on justice and fairness and all that,

and I know that the reality of it 'on this planet', as BK would say,

is not up to my expectations. But then she also says it's not about

morality, but about peace, or whatever. How can we all live here

without some rules, including morality, respect, etc.? Is it true

that there shouldn't be any 'shoulds'? Yes, I am lost again...

>

> If I give my money to someone... who's money is it?

Depends on the understanding of the reason why you gave it in the

first place. And if it is meant as a gift, once you gave it, it's

not yours, and I am very clear on that. Otherwise, one may say you

are giving the money conditionally, right? What about honour? The

reality of it on this planet is that it still counts. And, to press

the idea further, there are laws. What, is it true that there should

be laws? My inquiry has a very cynical and nasty voice that I just

can't shut up.

> You give me money to buy something for me. Who's money is it, then?

> AND it is quite a difference, whether this is about the money, for

> you, or this is about keeping a deal

>

> I gave a friend money to be his buisness partner, and we had a

> contract. His buisiness failed. He asked me for more money to

bring

> it up again. I had the money, so I gave it to him. He spent it not

on

> the buisness he said he would (he couldn't, it didn't work out the

> way he planned) and so he invested it in another buisness-idea of

> his. Which failed. At first I thought: he should have asked me!

But

> then I realized: what did I need the money for? How could have

> having this money have made me happier?

Maybe not happier, but it could have paid for your bills, food, I

don't know. You don't live in a cave for free and hunt for your

meals, or live off wild berries and such, do you? You have worked,

so that your natural human expensed can be covered, that's how it

works, isn't it?

> Money isn't real. We use it to buy us what we think would make us

> comfortable, secure, happy.

Yes, I hear you. And I admit to there being loads of temptations to

become too consumerist or whatever, it's not just our basic needs we

are paying for. Money isn't real? Ok, BK says she is after peace.

But she also says she is after the truth. (And of course for other

people, too.) But the question who would you be without... - may be

answered, more peaceful, or - a liar. They seem to oppose each

other. Sorry, it's not quite related to the subject at hand, but

just popped into my head again as I was thinking about what you are

saying here.

> So... what does my happyness look like?

I don't know, but you still have to pay your bills, don't you, happy

or not. Argh....(a slight groan)

> > Thanks in advance,

> Love,

>

Love from me, too,

[Guest guest]

Dear Pandy,

Which book are you reading?

That sinister voice you hear is the *I know* mind and I had one too.

I suggest you focus on question number 3 and see how you live your

life when you believe the thought that you deserve pain. How do you

treat yourself? How do you treat others? How do you feel when someone

tells you that they love you?

Let me know how I can help you and support you.

Love, nne

> Thank you for your kind support and encouragement, nne, and also

> for singling out the 'one-liners' for me to try doing the Work on.

>

> Obviously I won't be inquiring on the first two thoughts, they are

> absolutely true, for sure. As for the other two, I am too

> pessimistic about the outcome. I know, if I don't feel motivated

> enough to write it all down properly, it's my own funeral and I

> shouldn't bother the Lovers with my insanity, but you see, I've tried

> so many things, and nothing works, and here is the only place for

> me. And both of those last statements have been true for me

> practically all my life, and more often than not, I feel that's what

> I was born for. When I try to think along the Work lines, I hear

> some sinister voice telling me that can I know absolutely that I was

> not born for that pain, and when I try to strip myself of any

> thoughts, the 'real me' is still twisted. I am reading the book, by

> the way, but it only adds to the confusion.

>

> It is really nice to be here, and the anonymity of the place does

> loosen the tongue a bit...

>

> All the best,

>

>

>

> >

> > Dear Pandy,

> >

> > Please don't keep quiet. I love having you here.

> >

> > I gather these thoughts from what you write.

> >

> > I don't enjoy having this pain.

> >

> > I am not a masochist.

> >

> > I am deeply convinced that I ought to do it all the same.

> >

> > It (pain) is all I deserve.

> >

> > Are any of these true? I would question these thoughts, especially

> the

> > thought: it is all I deserve.

> >

> > Love, nne

> >

> >

> >

> > Even supposing that I am the only one causing myself any (mental)

> > pain, while I don't enjoy having this pain (not a masochist), I am

> > deeply convinced that I ought to do it all the same, that is all I

> > deserve.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hello nne,

> > >

> > > Dear Pandy,

> > >

> > > Please don't keep quiet. I love having you here.

> > >

> > > I gather these thoughts from what you write.

> > >

> > > I don't enjoy having this pain.

> > >

> > > I am not a masochist.

> > >

> > > I am deeply convinced that I ought to do it all the same.

> > >

> > > It (pain) is all I deserve.

> > >

> > > Are any of these true? I would question these thoughts,

especially

> > the

> > > thought: it is all I deserve.

> > >

> > > Love, nne

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Even supposing that I am the only one causing myself any

(mental)

> > > pain, while I don't enjoy having this pain (not a masochist),

I am

> > > deeply convinced that I ought to do it all the same, that is

all I

> > > deserve.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hello , that was a big one!

I am so completely confused now, that will only comment on that last

bit, at the very end. Loving What Is reading isn't going so good, by

the was .

> >

> >>> PS By the way, , on the other thread, started by

> >>> (I

> >>> hope she'll find the answers she is looking for), you implied (I

> >>> think)

> >>> that once she gave her friend money for the cruise, it wasn't

hers

> >>> anymore. But how come, she didn't give it to him as a gift, she

> >>> gave

> >>> it to him to buy her share for her, surely there is a

> >>> difference?

> >>> Very

> >>> thick, me, it would seem...

> >> I don't know. But what was the deal? And was he aware of it? And

> >> what

> >> was he to do, if it did not work out?

> >> And had it really been better, if he had sent it back?

> > I think it would have been better for , yes. I presume

she,

> > or her parents, had to work hard to earn the money, and it would

be a

> > fair deal if she could use it in order to restore herself from

that

> > hard work.

> Yes, they may have worked REALLY hard for it. Maybe they gave

their

> whole life to get that money. And what's her use for it? She gave

it

> to someone for a dream she had.

> He may have better use for it.

> And I am not saying she didn't put it to good use. She used it

well,

> and gave it to him. And now she thinks he used it wrong, and wants

it

> back. And not even because she needs it, but because she thinks

she

> made a mistake, and wants to make it undone.

>

> And all of this doesn't have anything to do with the " real " .

>

> > Oh dear, I am totally hung up on justice and fairness and all

that,

> > and I know that the reality of it 'on this planet', as BK would

say,

> > is not up to my expectations. But then she also says it's not

about

> > morality, but about peace, or whatever. How can we all live here

> > without some rules, including morality, respect, etc.? Is it true

> > that there shouldn't be any 'shoulds'? Yes, I am lost again...

> Oh, who is saying that everyone is living without any " shoulds " or

> without justice or fairness? The world just doesn't abide to YOUR

> idea of justice and fairness. This is what fairness looks like:

you

> have money -> you give it to me -> I have money.

>

> It is not my fairness that can cost you your peace. It is your not

> being fair, that costs you your peace.

>

> And it has nothing to do with you not asking your money back. You

try

> to get it back. And notice how you feel while you do it. Are you

> coming from a place of anger, or from a place of peace?

>

> >> If I give my money to someone... who's money is it?

> > Depends on the understanding of the reason why you gave it in the

> > first place. And if it is meant as a gift, once you gave it, it's

> > not yours, and I am very clear on that. Otherwise, one may say

you

> > are giving the money conditionally, right? What about honour?

The

> > reality of it on this planet is that it still counts. And, to

press

> > the idea further, there are laws. What, is it true that there

should

> > be laws? My inquiry has a very cynical and nasty voice that I

just

> > can't shut up.

> And who are you asking with " your " inquiry ?

>

> Let's see...

> If you toss a coin into a fortune well, and your wish doesn't get

> fulfilled... you don't get upset at the well, do you?

>

> And next time, will you toss a coin into a fortune well? I know

that

> I may.

>

> >> You give me money to buy something for me. Who's money is it,

then?

> >> AND it is quite a difference, whether this is about the money,

for

> >> you, or this is about keeping a deal

> >>

> >> I gave a friend money to be his buisness partner, and we had a

> >> contract. His buisiness failed. He asked me for more money to

> >> bring

> >> it up again. I had the money, so I gave it to him. He spent it

not

> >> on

> >> the buisness he said he would (he couldn't, it didn't work out

the

> >> way he planned) and so he invested it in another buisness-idea of

> >> his. Which failed. At first I thought: he should have asked me!

> >> But

> >> then I realized: what did I need the money for? How could have

> >> having this money have made me happier?

> > Maybe not happier,

> If that money doesn't make you happier, then what do you need it

for?

>

> Would you be rather have electricity, now, or would you rather be

happy?

> Would you rather have a meal, in this moment, or would you rather

be

> happy?

> Would you rather have a billion dollars, or would you rather be

happy?

>

> > but it could have paid for your bills, food, I

> > don't know.

> And I hear that you don't know. Isn't that interesting? You don't

> even know what you need that money for. And I did not hear that

you

> can't pay your bills, without that money. And if you needed it so

> badly, what did you give it for, in the first place? What did you

> want to get, that was more important to you, then paying your bills?

>

> > You don't live in a cave for free and hunt for your

> > meals, or live off wild berries and such, do you? You have

worked,

> > so that your natural human expensed can be covered, that's how it

> > works, isn't it?

> When I did not work, my human expenses were covered. When I did

work,

> my human expenses were covered. And is this still about the money

she

> gave to a friend? I didn't hear it was meant for her food or for

her

> bills, anyway.

> I have lived without electricity, without a flat or a house,

without

> a car and without money and without food, and I could be happy.

>

> >> Money isn't real. We use it to buy us what we think would make us

> >> comfortable, secure, happy.

> > Yes, I hear you. And I admit to there being loads of temptations

to

> > become too consumerist or whatever, it's not just our basic needs

we

> > are paying for.

> What are your BASIC needs? Really, find that out for yourself!

>

> > Money isn't real? Ok, BK says she is after peace.

> > But she also says she is after the truth.

> And she says, that it's the truth that sets you free.

>

> The way I say it is:

> Living in the truth doesn't GIVE you peace. Nothing can give you

> peace. Because it's what you already have.

> And Living in a lie " costs " you your peace. Because it focuses

your

> awareness on something that you are not.

>

> > (And of course for other

> > people, too.) But the question who would you be without... - may

be

> > answered, more peaceful, or - a liar. They seem to oppose each

> > other. Sorry, it's not quite related to the subject at hand, but

> > just popped into my head again as I was thinking about what you

are

> > saying here.

> And I did not understand what you just said.

>

> >> So... what does my happyness look like?

> > I don't know,

> So, how do you know when you found it?

>

> > but you still have to pay your bills, don't you, happy

> > or not. Argh....(a slight groan)

> Well, do I really *have to*?

>

> There *ALWAYS* is another option.

>

> You know... to pay my bills incredibly eases my mind. It is SUCH a

> caring thing to do for myself.

>

> And if I am happy... who cares what I do?

>

> What important, world-moving, future-planning, self-stabilizing

and

> caring things do YOU do when you are COMPLETELY happy, full of JOY?

I seem to have an opposite notion of Truth and Reality from BK. Her

descriptions sound to me like total un-Truth and Fantasy. As for my

COMPLETE happiness and JOY-fullness - they happen mainly when I am

either drunk or in denial of Reality, which, of course, in BK terms

means when I am embracing it. I am too upset and disappointed with

her book, not because it wouldn't give me what I want, I just feel

cheated. I will finish it first, but then, am I allowed to make an

angry outburst on this board, or will I be struck off?

>

> >>> Thanks in advance,

> >> Love,

> >>

> >

> > Love from me, too,

> Thank you so much.

>

>

>

>

> ___________________________________________________________

> Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC:

http://messenger.yahoo.de

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your reply J!

Right now I feel so pessimistic about the Work, as a result of

reading Loving What Is, BK's statements, to me, just don't ring true

more often than not. I am desperately trying to be honest to myself,

to seek out the truth, no matter how painful. But painful doesn't

always mean truthfull. And I came across this 'movement' while I was

searching for ways out of deep depression, that followed other

painful stuff. Anyway, I think I've listened to everything there is

on BK website, if there is more stuff to listen to elsewhere, and

somebody can indeed point me in the right direction, I'd be very

grateful.

It was nice talking to you J,

> >

> > > > PS By the way, , on the other thread, started by

> > (I

> > > > hope she'll find the answers she is looking for), you implied

(I

> > > > think)

> > > > that once she gave her friend money for the cruise, it wasn't

hers

> > > > anymore. But how come, she didn't give it to him as a gift,

she

> > gave

> > > > it to him to buy her share for her, surely there is a

> > difference?

> > > > Very

> > > > thick, me, it would seem...

> > > I don't know. But what was the deal? And was he aware of it?

And

> > what

> > > was he to do, if it did not work out?

> > > And had it really been better, if he had sent it back?

> >

> > I think it would have been better for , yes. I presume

she,

> > or her parents, had to work hard to earn the money, and it would

be a

> > fair deal if she could use it in order to restore herself from

that

> > hard work.

> >

> > Oh dear, I am totally hung up on justice and fairness and all

that,

> > and I know that the reality of it 'on this planet', as BK would

say,

> > is not up to my expectations. But then she also says it's not

about

> > morality, but about peace, or whatever. How can we all live here

> > without some rules, including morality, respect, etc.? Is it

true

> > that there shouldn't be any 'shoulds'? Yes, I am lost again...

> > >

> > > If I give my money to someone... who's money is it?

> >

> > Depends on the understanding of the reason why you gave it in the

> > first place. And if it is meant as a gift, once you gave it,

it's

> > not yours, and I am very clear on that. Otherwise, one may say

you

> > are giving the money conditionally, right? What about honour?

The

> > reality of it on this planet is that it still counts. And, to

press

> > the idea further, there are laws. What, is it true that there

should

> > be laws? My inquiry has a very cynical and nasty voice that I

just

> > can't shut up.

> >

> > > You give me money to buy something for me. Who's money is it,

then?

> > > AND it is quite a difference, whether this is about the money,

for

> > > you, or this is about keeping a deal

> > >

> > > I gave a friend money to be his buisness partner, and we had a

> > > contract. His buisiness failed. He asked me for more money to

> > bring

> > > it up again. I had the money, so I gave it to him. He spent it

not

> > on

> > > the buisness he said he would (he couldn't, it didn't work out

the

> > > way he planned) and so he invested it in another buisness-idea

of

> > > his. Which failed. At first I thought: he should have asked me!

> > But

> > > then I realized: what did I need the money for? How could

have

> > > having this money have made me happier?

> >

> > Maybe not happier, but it could have paid for your bills, food, I

> > don't know. You don't live in a cave for free and hunt for your

> > meals, or live off wild berries and such, do you? You have

worked,

> > so that your natural human expensed can be covered, that's how it

> > works, isn't it?

> >

> > > Money isn't real. We use it to buy us what we think would make

us

> > > comfortable, secure, happy.

> >

> > Yes, I hear you. And I admit to there being loads of temptations

to

> > become too consumerist or whatever, it's not just our basic needs

we

> > are paying for. Money isn't real? Ok, BK says she is after

peace.

> > But she also says she is after the truth. (And of course for

other

> > people, too.) But the question who would you be without... - may

be

> > answered, more peaceful, or - a liar. They seem to oppose each

> > other. Sorry, it's not quite related to the subject at hand, but

> > just popped into my head again as I was thinking about what you

are

> > saying here.

> >

> > > So... what does my happyness look like?

> >

> > I don't know, but you still have to pay your bills, don't you,

happy

> > or not. Argh....(a slight groan)

> >

> > > > Thanks in advance,

> > > Love,

> > >

> >

> > Love from me, too,

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi nne,

Your 'clearer' clearly doesn't work for me (though I am sure it

will work for ), because below is another question/argument.

>

> Dear ,

>

> I want to be clearer with you and Pandy.

>

> I should have written that I what I " had " was a *sinister* and

> *suspicious* I know mind especially regarding people. She had my

best

> interests at heart at the time of a wounding experience.

>

> And I agree that I know mind is my friend and I don't have to

believe

> everything she says.

Okay, so you don't have to believe everything 'she' says. But what

if 'she' is 'right'? Will you know when 'she' knows better? And

if 'she' does know better, you still don't have to believe her?

Won't it clash with the truth?

> Love, nne

Love, P

>

>

> > Dear nne,

> >

> > > That sinister voice you hear is the *I know* mind and I had one

too.

> > You *HAD* one? I am sorry to hear you lost it! But, eventually

it

> > will find you. Mine always has!

> >

> > It's my friend and I don't have to believe everything it says.

> >

> > And if I do, it shows me what is left.

> >

> > Love,

> >

> >

> >

> > ___________________________________________________________

> > Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC:

http://messenger.yahoo.de

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Pandy,

You are more than welcome to throw your tantrum here on this board.

You can lie down and kick and scream and beat the floor, have a real

hissy fit or just crawl in bed and feel sorry for yourself, which

ever makes you feel better.

I know you are just like me. All you really want is our love,

approval and appreciation. I totally understand your reaction to

's view of reality. With our vicious, painful stories, how can

everything be love and joy?

The truth is the last place we will look.

Love, Steve D.

> > >

> > >>> PS By the way, , on the other thread, started by

> > >>> (I

> > >>> hope she'll find the answers she is looking for), you implied

(I

> > >>> think)

> > >>> that once she gave her friend money for the cruise, it wasn't

> hers

> > >>> anymore. But how come, she didn't give it to him as a gift,

she

> > >>> gave

> > >>> it to him to buy her share for her, surely there is a

> > >>> difference?

> > >>> Very

> > >>> thick, me, it would seem...

> > >> I don't know. But what was the deal? And was he aware of it?

And

> > >> what

> > >> was he to do, if it did not work out?

> > >> And had it really been better, if he had sent it back?

> > > I think it would have been better for , yes. I presume

> she,

> > > or her parents, had to work hard to earn the money, and it

would

> be a

> > > fair deal if she could use it in order to restore herself from

> that

> > > hard work.

> > Yes, they may have worked REALLY hard for it. Maybe they gave

> their

> > whole life to get that money. And what's her use for it? She gave

> it

> > to someone for a dream she had.

> > He may have better use for it.

> > And I am not saying she didn't put it to good use. She used it

> well,

> > and gave it to him. And now she thinks he used it wrong, and

wants

> it

> > back. And not even because she needs it, but because she thinks

> she

> > made a mistake, and wants to make it undone.

> >

> > And all of this doesn't have anything to do with the " real "

.

> >

> > > Oh dear, I am totally hung up on justice and fairness and all

> that,

> > > and I know that the reality of it 'on this planet', as BK would

> say,

> > > is not up to my expectations. But then she also says it's not

> about

> > > morality, but about peace, or whatever. How can we all live

here

> > > without some rules, including morality, respect, etc.? Is it

true

> > > that there shouldn't be any 'shoulds'? Yes, I am lost again...

> > Oh, who is saying that everyone is living without any " shoulds "

or

> > without justice or fairness? The world just doesn't abide to

YOUR

> > idea of justice and fairness. This is what fairness looks like:

> you

> > have money -> you give it to me -> I have money.

> >

> > It is not my fairness that can cost you your peace. It is your

not

> > being fair, that costs you your peace.

> >

> > And it has nothing to do with you not asking your money back. You

> try

> > to get it back. And notice how you feel while you do it. Are you

> > coming from a place of anger, or from a place of peace?

> >

> > >> If I give my money to someone... who's money is it?

> > > Depends on the understanding of the reason why you gave it in

the

> > > first place. And if it is meant as a gift, once you gave it,

it's

> > > not yours, and I am very clear on that. Otherwise, one may say

> you

> > > are giving the money conditionally, right? What about honour?

> The

> > > reality of it on this planet is that it still counts. And, to

> press

> > > the idea further, there are laws. What, is it true that there

> should

> > > be laws? My inquiry has a very cynical and nasty voice that I

> just

> > > can't shut up.

> > And who are you asking with " your " inquiry ?

> >

> > Let's see...

> > If you toss a coin into a fortune well, and your wish doesn't

get

> > fulfilled... you don't get upset at the well, do you?

> >

> > And next time, will you toss a coin into a fortune well? I know

> that

> > I may.

> >

> > >> You give me money to buy something for me. Who's money is it,

> then?

> > >> AND it is quite a difference, whether this is about the money,

> for

> > >> you, or this is about keeping a deal

> > >>

> > >> I gave a friend money to be his buisness partner, and we had a

> > >> contract. His buisiness failed. He asked me for more money to

> > >> bring

> > >> it up again. I had the money, so I gave it to him. He spent it

> not

> > >> on

> > >> the buisness he said he would (he couldn't, it didn't work out

> the

> > >> way he planned) and so he invested it in another buisness-idea

of

> > >> his. Which failed. At first I thought: he should have asked me!

> > >> But

> > >> then I realized: what did I need the money for? How could have

> > >> having this money have made me happier?

> > > Maybe not happier,

> > If that money doesn't make you happier, then what do you need it

> for?

> >

> > Would you be rather have electricity, now, or would you rather be

> happy?

> > Would you rather have a meal, in this moment, or would you rather

> be

> > happy?

> > Would you rather have a billion dollars, or would you rather be

> happy?

> >

> > > but it could have paid for your bills, food, I

> > > don't know.

> > And I hear that you don't know. Isn't that interesting? You

don't

> > even know what you need that money for. And I did not hear that

> you

> > can't pay your bills, without that money. And if you needed it

so

> > badly, what did you give it for, in the first place? What did

you

> > want to get, that was more important to you, then paying your

bills?

> >

> > > You don't live in a cave for free and hunt for your

> > > meals, or live off wild berries and such, do you? You have

> worked,

> > > so that your natural human expensed can be covered, that's how

it

> > > works, isn't it?

> > When I did not work, my human expenses were covered. When I did

> work,

> > my human expenses were covered. And is this still about the money

> she

> > gave to a friend? I didn't hear it was meant for her food or for

> her

> > bills, anyway.

> > I have lived without electricity, without a flat or a house,

> without

> > a car and without money and without food, and I could be happy.

> >

> > >> Money isn't real. We use it to buy us what we think would make

us

> > >> comfortable, secure, happy.

> > > Yes, I hear you. And I admit to there being loads of

temptations

> to

> > > become too consumerist or whatever, it's not just our basic

needs

> we

> > > are paying for.

> > What are your BASIC needs? Really, find that out for yourself!

> >

> > > Money isn't real? Ok, BK says she is after peace.

> > > But she also says she is after the truth.

> > And she says, that it's the truth that sets you free.

> >

> > The way I say it is:

> > Living in the truth doesn't GIVE you peace. Nothing can give you

> > peace. Because it's what you already have.

> > And Living in a lie " costs " you your peace. Because it focuses

> your

> > awareness on something that you are not.

> >

> > > (And of course for other

> > > people, too.) But the question who would you be without... -

may

> be

> > > answered, more peaceful, or - a liar. They seem to oppose each

> > > other. Sorry, it's not quite related to the subject at hand,

but

> > > just popped into my head again as I was thinking about what you

> are

> > > saying here.

> > And I did not understand what you just said.

> >

> > >> So... what does my happyness look like?

> > > I don't know,

> > So, how do you know when you found it?

> >

> > > but you still have to pay your bills, don't you, happy

> > > or not. Argh....(a slight groan)

> > Well, do I really *have to*?

> >

> > There *ALWAYS* is another option.

> >

> > You know... to pay my bills incredibly eases my mind. It is SUCH

a

> > caring thing to do for myself.

> >

> > And if I am happy... who cares what I do?

> >

> > What important, world-moving, future-planning, self-stabilizing

> and

> > caring things do YOU do when you are COMPLETELY happy, full of

JOY?

>

> I seem to have an opposite notion of Truth and Reality from BK.

Her

> descriptions sound to me like total un-Truth and Fantasy. As for

my

> COMPLETE happiness and JOY-fullness - they happen mainly when I am

> either drunk or in denial of Reality, which, of course, in BK terms

> means when I am embracing it. I am too upset and disappointed with

> her book, not because it wouldn't give me what I want, I just feel

> cheated. I will finish it first, but then, am I allowed to make an

> angry outburst on this board, or will I be struck off?

>

> >

> > >>> Thanks in advance,

> > >> Love,

> > >>

> > >

> > > Love from me, too,

> > Thank you so much.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ___________________________________________________________

> > Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC:

> http://messenger.yahoo.de

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Steve, thank you for your note.

>

> Dear Pandy,

>

> You are more than welcome to throw your tantrum here on this

board.

> You can lie down and kick and scream and beat the floor, have a

real

> hissy fit or just crawl in bed and feel sorry for yourself, which

> ever makes you feel better.

I've done the crawl-in-the-bed bit, I am now ready for the screaming

fit. I've been holding on to it, thought it won't be fair on the

truth if I just start trashing the book midway, now I am through, and

feel even stronger about my reservations.

>

> I know you are just like me. All you really want is our love,

> approval and appreciation.

I have read enough self-help books to know that there can be no love

from others without self-love. But you are right, I am still needing

an approval, which I can't give myself, because there is nothing to

approve of.

I totally understand your reaction to

> 's view of reality. With our vicious, painful stories, how

can

> everything be love and joy?

>

> The truth is the last place we will look.

I've looked where she pointed, it's not there either.

> Love, Steve D.

Love, P

[Guest guest]

>

> Dear Pandy,

>

> > As for my

> > COMPLETE happiness and JOY-fullness - they happen mainly when I am

> > either drunk or in denial of Reality, which, of course, in BK

terms

> > means when I am embracing it.

> So... being in complete happiness and joy-fullness... what is your

> thought coming up? And what do you DO?

>

> What I hear is that being drunk is a road for you to take to

> experience joy and happiness.

> It's a way... one you are willing to take DESPITE the hangover,

> headaches, people talking.

Maybe that's what you are hearing, but it is not what I am saying. I

do not use alcohol as a road to happiness, I was observing a state of

mind that is usually either drug-induced, or results from some

spiritual experience.

>

> It doesn't work for me and I hear it does work for you.

>

> Tell me of it. How you experience that moment.

>

> And I was going to the part about what you do to be happy. Or what

> you do when you are happy. Isn't happiness what you want? And

where

> is the part you need money for?

>

> You said you have to pay your bills. Do that if it makes you

happy.

My talk about bills was directly related to an example you gave about

lending money to a friend and not getting it back, but whad do you

need it for? So I mentioned that you needed it for the bills maybe.

I followed your example into your business, I wasn't talking about me.

> And if you need money to do it, earn some. Get a second job. Get a

> third job. Get four jobs, if you want to pay your bills. Or notice

> the bills and notice what you do to pay them. Blame your friends

that

> they don't pay you back? You may be right that they should pay you

> back. And in the meantime... does blaming them pay your bills?

That's

> the part about money being an illusion.

>

> Money can NEVER be the cause for my upset or my happyness.

Good for you.

>

> > I am too upset and disappointed with

> > her book, not because it wouldn't give me what I want, I just feel

> > cheated.

> And... how exaclty did it cheat you?

I cheated myself by thinking that there will be some answers in the

book. So what?

>

> > I will finish it first, but then, am I allowed to make an

> > angry outburst on this board, or will I be struck off?

> I don't know... give it a try if you want to find out!

I will, now.

>

> Love,

>

>

Love,P

>

> ___________________________________________________________

> Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC:

http://messenger.yahoo.de

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Ric,

I've tried it, twice. Wasn't motivated to do it again, as I thought

that I should know the basics first, in the book. I think

facilitating on the phone would be more effective that way. Now I

see it's not for me. Thank you for your insight, P

>

> Hi Pandy,

>

>

>

> I have the thought that you might call the Hotline and be

facilitated by one

> of the volunteers. I see a lot of beliefs that you might question

with a

> facilitator. One that I see implied in your comments it that you

need a way

> out of your depression. Is that true in this moment? And I am not

saying

> it is not. In any event, in my experience something synergistic

happens

> when being facilitated by another person. Consider trying it once,

twice,

> or even three times. This is a direction. Right direction? That

suggests

> that there is such a thing as a right and a wrong direction. Even

if there

> were, I wouldn't know which it was. How could I tell?

>

>

>

> I hope this helps,

>

>

>

> Love,

>

>

>

> Ric

>

>

>