Re: the other (one) is never my problem

[Guest guest]

> >

> > hey alltogher,

> >

> > can you give feedback please?

> >

> > " only my thinking is my problem. "

> >

> > well. if i have a person next to me with which i can live in an

> > harmonious way, and there is another with which i am in

dissonance,

> > doesn't if have a connection with the " other " ?

> >

> > i am not talking of compulisve or faked " harmony " .

> >

> > both are an offer, or maybe even a challenge, and yet it is

different.

> > in the outside world not only in my thinking.

> >

> > hm. i wonder about this a little bit since i have had so many

> > dissonances with people since a while.

> >

> > lr

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

thanks for responding. I'm a little late with my response, hope it

doesn't matter. I write into your post.

> My experience is this:

>

> With the people I feel harmony with I don´t have any stressful

> stories. No stories of that I want or need anything from them, no

> stories that the should or shouldn´t do certain things.

>

> And with the people I have dissonances with I have all the stories

> about how the should behave and how they shouldn´t, and what I need

> and want from them.

*** so far my experience is similar.

>

> Who would I be without my stories?

*** good question. and nevertheless, as i am not done with this, i

dive a bit into that. when i was a little kid, my dad, wasn't the kind

to feel save and harmonious with. i was used to it, and didn't know it

any different. (that recognition came later) i cannot remember a

thought of: he should be different. in the backview i would say, i had

a very sensitve senosory system, to adapt to his moods and keep/kept

myself as save as possible within this framework.

i cannot remember a thought of he should be different.

i dont know if it was just so, or if it was a reaction to living with

him, but i had " so called " psychosomatic symptoms, such as nail biting

and bedwetting.

a psychologist would say there is a kausual connection between this,

and the work perhaps would say can you absolutely be sure. i say, i

dont know. could be something from another life as well. and so again

- bottom line is: i don't know.

fact is: i cannot remember a thought of " he should be different " and

yet i remember being afraid of him.

so in a way he was my problem. for if he had been a nice and adjuvant

person, i might have developed differently.

this is NOT, that i am blaming him. things were, the way they were.

it's about the question if another is my problem or not.

> Who would I be together with THEM without my stories?

*** well according to my experience, i'ld be together with them,

depending on my personal setting. whether i depend on them.

materially, emotionally, whether i have enough freedom to move away,

and i have others where i can find love and security (in germany we

say " Geborgenheit " ).

as a child i had no " no " against him, and yet i was taking care of my

safety while being with him. but the first opportunity to move away

from him, i took.

When I do the work I always get the insight that

> the problems I have with other people lies in my thinking.

*** are you always in a relaxed mood, that you can let the others do

whatever they want, even if it might hurt you? i'm not. i can

willingly open up to the opportunity to move back to that condition,

but i am NOT always there. i am no shaolin monk (for example)

I maybe

> have the thought that they should love me or listen to me. Maybe I

> want them to understand me or appologize to me. These are the

> thoughts that make me suffer, and without them I don´t have a

> problem with the " other " anymore.

*** thank you maria, i hear you and i know from (own) experiences what

you mean. and again, i am not always there. so i suffer (more or less)

in between.

: (

thanks for responding, love, rose

not revised

[Guest guest]

hey alexander,

your response might be more a response to maria's then to my original

posting.

at the first moment i was impressed with your words. they sound so

cute, and wise, and clever, and amazing. but my mind is busy with this

topic so it does also have other aspects to your words; here they are:

what if i am blind?

i cannot see a mirror.

i can only sense the world through the remained senses.

what if i am deaf as well.

i noticed as a young person, how my perception of my own self did

change with the people i was with.

for example if i was with a nice person, i could feel myself being

more nice, or being more crass/crude, less fine.

and the other way round. if someone was crude, i felt sometimes finer,

etc..

i had developed something i called in my 30ties, feeling for the

atmosphere in a room, among people and so on.

i will ask the next blind person, if they have a sense like that.

the topic of " being exposed " was one that was interesting for me,

during different periods of my life.

when you are exposed in a dangerous/cruel setting where you cannot

escape and you want to survive, you develop strategies to survive till

you can escape. here you could say the other is your problem.

when you are in a setting where peace, harmony and cooperation is

alive, you don't need these strategies. the other one is not your problem.

still not done with that topic.

thanks for responding and reading this far, love rose

not revised

> Hello!

>

> Yes, and...

>

> it goes the way " no two people have ever met " .

>

> When you look into a mirror, and you see yourself, how does it affect

> your perceiption? Don't you start feeling different? All that

> happens, is that your view changes. You see something you didn't see

> just an instant before. And don't your feelings, your mood change

> different to the other times? How would you feel, if you were not

> looking at your mirror image, but through a window? Who are you, what

> are you, depending of the thought " that's me " ?

> And all that affects you are your thoughts about what you see: can

> you remember or just imagine looking into a mirror, and thinking it's

> a window? Experience how you change when your awareness shifts from

> window to mirror to window to... maybe: it's a doll, to... nothing's

> there.

>

> That's how you don't meet someone.

>

> And it's also how someone else can not be your problem.

>

> Love,

>

>

> Am 23.12.2006 um 09:02 schrieb :

>

> >

> >

> > Hi!

> >

> > My experience is this:

> >

> > With the people I feel harmony with I don´t have any stressful

> > stories. No stories of that I want or need anything from them, no

> > stories that the should or shouldn´t do certain things.

> >

> > And with the people I have dissonances with I have all the stories

> > about how the should behave and how they shouldn´t, and what I need

> > and want from them.

> >

> > Who would I be without my stories? Who would I be together with THEM

> > without my stories? When I do the work I always get the insight that

> > the problems I have with other people lies in my thinking. I maybe

> > have the thought that they should love me or listen to me. Maybe I

> > want them to understand me or appologize to me. These are the

> > thoughts that make me suffer, and without them I don´t have a

> > problem with the " other " anymore.

> >

> > Love,

> >

> >>

> >> hey alltogher,

> >>

> >> can you give feedback please?

> >>

> >> " only my thinking is my problem. "

> >>

> >> well. if i have a person next to me with which i can live in an

> >> harmonious way, and there is another with which i am in dissonance,

> >> doesn't if have a connection with the " other " ?

> >>

> >> i am not talking of compulisve or faked " harmony " .

> >>

> >> both are an offer, or maybe even a challenge, and yet it is

> >> different.

> >> in the outside world not only in my thinking.

> >>

> >> hm. i wonder about this a little bit since i have had so many

> >> dissonances with people since a while.

> >>

> >> lr

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ___________________________________________________________

> Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo!

Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de

>

[Guest guest]

hey alexander,

again i'm sick and as addition somewhat confused. you can see it in

my writing. ; -))

> So, thank you at first!

: -)

> > here they are:

> > what if i am blind?

> > i cannot see a mirror.

> > i can only sense the world through the remained senses.

> > what if i am deaf as well?

> You have all the senses you need, anyway. The " mirror " is an

image,

> as well.

*** i understand and i tend to take people literally.

Because you KNOW that it only reflects. And when you're

> blind, don't you have pictures, as well?

*** in your mind. i suppose; i'm not blind.

And if you have sound only,

> can't you HEAR that someone is angry?

*** i was talking about blind und taub /blind and deaf

> And could that be an interpretation?

*** yes it could be. and it also could be correct. some

interpretations even match with the others reality, sometimes.

And doesn't your mind go: " he's angry, because... " ,

*** i observe my mind and that's already confusing me. for i am in a

period in between. i observe it interpreting, and causing stress for

me, and i know from experience how often it had fooled me already so

i tend to check the interpretation of my mind as much/often as

possible.

> " the way he shouts means that... " , and so on?

*** sometimes yes. if only a little bit possible i simply ask.

> Don't you project into the future?

*** that can happen, yes. when i let my mind fool me/myself.

> Don't you project your past on what is?

again, like before.

>

> " what is " is ... blank. You put the colors, the sounds, etc. to

it.

*** this is the point where i jump in with memories or images. i

notice my mind forming sentences beginning with: but if ...

> And YOU define what that means. You interpret " what is " as loving,

> hating, fun, boring... and you use images, sounds, smells, etc.

for that.

*** again: yes but ... is forming within myself.

i tend to move towards things that stress or frigthen me. and i

notice that my mind goes stressed and even blanc over that. i go as

slowly as neccessary. it sometimes makes me sad, and yet it's as if

i have given myself a promise to walk myself through it and see what

it really is. in the end i often think of your sentence you once

wrote in one of the first mails to me.

" it will end in love and supension " . yes. that's my experience. and

in between, well - all sorts of feelings.

>

> > i noticed as a young person, how my perception of my own self did

> > change with the people i was with.

> > for example if i was with a nice person, i could feel myself

being more nice, or being more crass/crude, less fine.

> > and the other way round. if someone was crude, i felt sometimes

finer,

> > etc..

> yes. I remember doing that, also. Until I realized, that it is

ALWAYS

> about me. I used to use myself to understand others. What would I

> have to go through, who would I have to be, to experience what he

> does, to do what he does?

>

> Now I use others to understand myself!

*** sounds cute, and i am like " vernagelt " , at the moment. i just

don't understand what you mean at this specific moment.

>

> > i had developed something i called in my 30ties, feeling for the

> > atmosphere in a room, among people and so on.

> > i will ask the next blind person, if they have a sense like that.

> They do. Everyone does. And it's a projection.

*** i don't know. that's one of the points that make it so difficult

for me. i just am not sure.

let's say you have on one side someone who punishes you, and on the

other side someone who cares in a fine and tender way - that is a

difference visibly. ok. if i feel punished by tenderness and only

attracted by punishment it might be the other way round that i am

attracted, but still there is that difference only the value

(Bewertung) i put on it, is not equal. so where is the protection?

> > when you are exposed in a dangerous/cruel setting which you

cannot escape and you want to survive, you develop strategies to

survive till you can escape. here you could say the other is your

problem.

> No. It's *you* who wants something. And you want that so

desperate, you would even kill for it!

*** let's say i have not given up over the situation (resigniert)

and still have hope for a change to the better, then i want to

survive. would i kill for that? i don't know. typbedingt i would

say: no i would not kill to survive. i would try to escape without

killing, the other, but when i was 14 and did not see any other

emergency exit possible, i tried twice to kill myself. so yes; i

have tried to kill, but myself.

> For me it's about my peace. No-thing is more valuable than that.

Not even my own life.

*** yes.

How do I breathe my last breath? Is it in fear, or in love? And when

I picture my last breath, how do I experience it?

> > when you are in a setting where peace, harmony and cooperation is

> > alive, you don't need these strategies. the other one is not

your problem.

> Yes. That's one part where you see it.

*** what do you mean with " one part " .

> > still not done with that topic.

> Thank you for working on it.

*** thanks for supporting me here. that's one of my " core " topics.

it is alive again, for several reasons.

love rose

>

> Love,

>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

> > i cannot remember a thought of " he should be different " .

> And you don't have to. What about now? Do you think he should have

been different, or be different in your memories?

***no.

Would you feel more comfortable, if you had had another Dad?

*** i dont know. i could only fantasize over that.

One that was different from yours? Would you react in a different

way, when you listened to stories about him, when you were talking

about him?

>

> Then I'd do the work.

*** i see. the current trigger was a x-mas card from his wife to me.

i wept when i got it. such a " crazy " family. : \

>

> > i dont know if it was just so, or if it was a reaction to living

with him, but i had " so called " psychosomatic symptoms, such as nail

biting and bedwetting.

> what's not ok?

it's not even a question of ok or not. it was what it was. i got

beaten for it. that was terrible.

> would it have been ok if it had been for another reason? If it had

not been that often? Which story do you feel most comfortable with,

now?

i don't know.

> > a psychologist would say " there is a causual connection between

this " ,

> > and the work perhaps would say " can you absolutely be sure " . i

say, i dont know. could be something from another life as well (if

there is one at all). and so again

> > - bottom line is: i don't know.

> Good.

>

> And I'd say: who cares?

*** i agree.

>

> And listen to what the psychologist has to say. What you have to

say.

> And I have no need to share it, or to go to war with it. Whatever

you say.

*** this " change of persons " in your last four sentences confuses my

already confused mind.

>

> > fact is: i cannot remember a thought of " he should be different "

and

> > yet i remember being afraid of him.

> > so in a way he was my problem. for if he had been a nice and

adjuvant

> > person, i might have developed differently.

> > this is NOT, that i am blaming him. things were, the way they

were.

> > it's about the question if another is my problem or not.

> It's about seeing that you are on your own. It's YOUR MIND you can

work with. Nothing else. And in that lies the solution to ALL of

your problems. No one can be my problem. That's MY priviledge.

*** the last sentence sounds even funny. but again, here is the

point of my interest. i know there's a tresure to find. i knew it

all along.

>

>

> >> Who would I be together with THEM without my stories?

> > *** well according to my experience, i'ld be together with them,

> > depending on my personal setting. whether i depend on them.

> > materially, emotionally, whether i have enough freedom to move

away, and i have others where i can find love and security (in

germany we say " Geborgenheit " ).

*** this might be confusing to a reader as i was having in mind

humans in every age, but specifically young kids. when i was a

little child, i had no one to run to. sounds like feeling like a

victim, but i didn't, i was used to it. my solution was to be away

as much as possible and to tell everything to a dog i borrowed from

neighbors to have long walks with.

as a grown up, things are completly different. if necessary i made

sure so far to not be too close with cruel acting people.

> > as a child i had no " no " against him, and yet i was taking care

of my safety while being with him. but the first opportunity to move

away

> > from him, i took.

> Yes.

>

> How do you depend emotionally from someone. Isn't that believing a

> thought like " I can not exist without him? "

*** i have no thoughts like this, not even with my darling, or my

kids. but i clearly enjoy their company. i love to be with my own

company and i enjoy theirs.

or " Without him it would be even worse " ? How do you depend

materially from someone.

*** i don't. again i would rather prefer to die than to live in any

unhappy relationship.

Isn't it that you'd rather have something to eat than to leave? And

can you know you wouldn't have EVERYTHING you need if you left him?

*** i always found what i needed. and now over being paralysed and

in need of expensive medicine, if i could not afford it, then i

again would chose to die, rather than bring myself in painful

settings. i will die anyway, that's the reason why i live my life in

the now in a way, so that it can end any moment.

>

> So what does your freedom depend on, other than your thoughts?

*** that's a good question. again because it touches this core topic

deeply. i don't know if i could stand to live in an unfree setting.

i love freedom. but, i have managed it once, i might make it again.

who knows. (may sound strange but is meant simple)

> A clear mind can move away or stay. A clear mind moves to comfort.

*** with or without moving it's physical vehicle?

>

> >> When I do the work I always get the insight that

> >> the problems I have with other people lies in my thinking.

> > *** are you always in a relaxed mood, that you can let the

others do whatever they want, even if it might hurt you? i'm not. i

can willingly open up to the opportunity to move back to that

condition, but i am NOT always there. i am no shaolin monk (for

example)

> When I am clear, I do what *I* want to do.

>

> AND know it!

>

> That might look like jumping in front of a bus to save someone's

> life. It may look like hitting someone with a weapon. It may look

> like shouting at kid. It may look like washing the dishes.

*** i understand. i still have some fears or sadnesses left. as far

as i notice they go along with beliefs i cling to, noticed or

unnoticed.

> And whenever you suffer, it's a sign that your mind is off.

*** i have heard that sentence several times now. always connected

with the work. so i conclude it belongs to the work.

i am living with it, and see if it is true for me (also). no final

statement possible yet. ; -)

thank you, love rose

not revised.

[Guest guest]

Hello,

thank you for your sharing.

i do relate to the " worked " attitude, and when I do the work, I also

realise that my thinking is the cause of suffering.

But, don't you want sometimes just to get up and change place in order

to be with people with whom you feel good (or at least better).

What is the subtle boarder line between acceptance/letting go and

submitting to pain or masochism?

Thank you.

NH

> Who would I be without my stories? Who would I be together with THEM

> without my stories? When I do the work I always get the insight that

> the problems I have with other people lies in my thinking. I maybe

> have the thought that they should love me or listen to me. Maybe I

> want them to understand me or appologize to me. These are the

> thoughts that make me suffer, and without them I don´t have a

> problem with the " other " anymore.

>

> Love,

>

>

[Guest guest]

hey alltogether, hey alexander

i had written the following - yesterday:

i think it might be useful to split this topic into two parts.

one that is the clear worksheat orientated one.

i will open an extra thread for them, called " dad "

and this one which deals with the question of the subject line.

alexander,

i think

it's of no use to just nodd and " give in " and still have not reached a

clear position over that. it's not that i am just renitent. it is that

there are unclear areas, questions left.

this thread i will use to get somewhat more clear about that.

could you please watch that clip,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtjTKgioEu0

the part i mean is beginning to get introduced begins at 0'30, and

then starts at 1.30, it's not long. it's the max planck part, i mean.

ok. back to my topic.

a branch has an " intend " to move. if our movements cross, it comes to

an encounter you could call hit.

most probably it would not be the same branch that hits repetetively,

and it does not do it with intend (to castigate, to educate, to

release an overload of stress or desperation, or anger)

i can break that branch. i could not break my father as a kid. i don't

know if i would have even wished to break him. i wanted to be save and

happy.

i could not defend myself against my father.

physically i had no chance. and the " energy " he " signalised " was

intensively dangerous.

i could try to controll the situation/setting with obeying, being

outside the house away from him, being less vivid than i was.

ok. if i take my dad as expression of the devine, and i am also an

expression of the devine, then there is no problem. the emotions, and

sideeffects, belonging to that play are " nesseccary " to make that play

lively.

as a kid i took it for normal. as an adult with a philosophical

background i could say: it's leela. (with or without " don't worry " )

growing older, i noticed, there are different kinds of parents/adults.

there are " fine " caring ones, there are " harsh " caring ones (i

simplify here). both care.

today, if someone would come to hit me, aggressively, trying to

overwhelm me, i could " chose " my reaction (if there's enough time and

i remember/manage to do it at that moment). i could stay, observe,

surrender, or i could defend, or i could try to " discuss " ... maybe

there are more possibilities.

when i " manage " to stay in that all accepting " mood " /mode there's no

problem at all. neither on my side or on the other. the other then is

no problem, for there is no problem. there is only expression of life.

i'm not always in that mode/mood.

any thoughts, inputs from you?

thanks for reading this far, love, rose

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

> Thank you for not " giving in " .

: )

i was observing my wandering mind, which reasons it offers to me,

regarding your pausing to write.

> could you please watch that clip,

> >

> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtjTKgioEu0

did you watch the first few minutes of that clip?

>

> > a branch has an " intend " to move.

> Don't you put an ego on the branch when you say he has an intent to

> move?

what you call " ego " is not what i had in mind. that's why i had put

the word intend into " " .

>

> When the branch hits you, do you get angry at it?

>

> You see, the difference whether I get upset or not depends on

whether I take it personally or not.

nevertheless, right! i remember moments when hitting branches were

hitting branches. i remember a moment when i was already down, and

went against a branch for i was looking down to the ground and that

hit/stroke was too much for me to stand, and i started to weep.

sometimes such a tiny thing can be the " last drop "

> The branch doesn't " want " to hit you. It moves, you are in the way.

> For some it may be clear that the branch moving is not about them.

that' what i wrote in the other posting. # 40319.

>

> On the other hand, sometimes people get angry at a computer...

;-) you're right.

>

>

> > if our movements cross, it comes to an encounter you could call hit.

> Yes. Look, it's not about words. You can investigate into a " hit " as

> well as into a " movement " . My guess is that a " hit " can be more

> stressful than a " movement " . So, look at that father/branch thing,

> and explore: " he hit me. "

*** it's kind of mad. it's in a way somehow like a question to me, as

if i was mad, and a hit is not a hit. I am not eager to be the victim.

it's not about that. to me a stick in the hand of an aggressive

father, beating down on a naked buttock of a child bending over a sofa

is a hit. and that hit is over.

we had a bird here, to care for over the holidays, it was only in my

daughters room, because we have a cat. usually the cat was either in

the living room, or outside the house, but then the curtain of my

daughters window was closed. one day not.

so one moment the cat was suddenly jumping on the ledge, outside of

the house, at the gardenside. the bird instantly, when it noticed the

cat and began to fly rapidly, in rather exited movements, the bird

inside the room. as soon as we closed the curtain, the bird calmed

down again.

that was somehow like symbolic to me.

somehow i feel like " that bird " .

I mean, when there is a storm going on, and

> there's a lot of movement in the forest: branches swing back and

> forth, trees rock, and if it is a strong storm, trees may fall.

> I'd say that we don't go into the forest when there's a big storm

> going on.

right. again, i wrote this, days ago.

>

> And now take this analogy to your father: Did you have any clues

> whether there was a storm going on? Can you remember how you reacted?

> Did you try to stay safe, rather than playing in the forest? Was it

> the other way around? Let's say he was always in a bad mood, always

> about to hit, or to do whatever he did: were there times that it

> was... stronger?

yes. and again, i wrote about that in the other posting/s.

>

> Now let's see what else you write...

>

> > most probably it would not be the same branch that hits repetetively,

> would that make any difference? Look, you are going off, here.

yes. sometimes i go off, simply because i sometimes write things down

and then think it's too much (amount) and cut out bit's and pieces to

come down to the extract. and then sometimes someone comes into the

room, i get distracted and loose the correct track.

this happens. must i apologize? ; -)) no. i'm sorry. i try to be as

clear as possible, still sometimes these things happen.

That's

> not a bad/good thing, just notice when you do, so that you can catch

> yourself when it's not what you want.

yes! the second reason is, my mind goes off for being afraid, or whatever.

>

> And it wasn't the same father that hit you, either. Sometimes it was

> a man with a bad mood, sometimes with a good mood, sometimes he was

> sick, sometimes he was... whatever he was. And you noted the

> differences, didn't you?

i can say for sure, that i noticed differenced in intensity. i have no

memories of giving myself explanations to that. i noticed danger from

his side and my " security programm started " just like the mentioned

bird, just perhaps somehow more invisible.

> > and it does not do it with intend (to castigate, to educate, to

> > release an overload of stress or desperation, or anger)

> This is where you take it to a personal level?

yes, you can say so. did you get beatend by your parents? do you beat

your kids?

do you sometimes feel the impulse to do so, and if yes, what do you

then think and do?

Now it's an action

> against you. It was his job. Because that's what he did.

ok. that's what bk says and what's " common " in the work. i am not

clear if i (in my ego) agree to it, or want to agree to it.

a human is not an animal and not a branch.

a human can ambush, a branch does/can not.

some animals can.

ok.

when a dad comes and beats his kids for they are chatting somewhat in

the bed after 8pm, they are kids having fun, being alive, that's

different to a stick/branch. isn't it? now you can say: that's his

job. and ok, according to the work that's right.

at that moment - at that past - he was my problem, for i never knew

when he got his tantrums. today it's over, but you know after one of

your postings i was buy with the question and an inner conflict of,

why did i not protect myself better from him? the simple answer is: i

was afraid and did not knew any better way to cope with the situation.

> > i can break that branch.

> Doesn't matter, there'll always be enough ready to hit you.

: ) yes. right.

>

> > i could not break my father as a kid. i don't

> > know if i would have even wished to break him.

> Doesn't matter.

aha.

> > i wanted to be save and happy.

> Is that really true?

yes. i think so. i have described in the other postings which ways i

found to care about myself. and i am a human that's able to experience

deep joy. so i charged my batteries outside and beared what was inside

our house.

>

> Go back to a place where it was really hard for you, where you

wished to be save and happy real bad. Didn't any solutions come into

your mind? Solutions that you put off?

most of my childhood is forgotten. i heard some stories from others.

like i went to a little spot where " the virgin maria " had a statue and

a little flowerbed around. there i was found till i turned four and we

moved away. then i have no memories, and then i remember being out

with kids, for playing, or neigbors dogs for long walks.

> The times I was most desperate where the times when I had the most

beautiful dreams and compared

> them with what I had. And I resignated to the life that was meant for

> me. That's how it felt. I didn't know how to do otherwise. Now I do,

> and I can see that I could have chosen differently.

>

> Can you relate to that?

i don't know. in a way, seeing it from today, i can imagine different

scenarios. then, well - obviously my way was to withdraw.

>

> > i could not defend myself against my father.

> > physically i had no chance. and the " energy " he " signalised " was

> > intensively dangerous.

> > i could try to controll the situation/setting with obeying, being

> > outside the house away from him, being less vivid than i was.

> I hear that you wanted to be more vivid, knowing that it could cost

> your safety.

yes, so i controlled myself as much as possible. (i have a southern

temperament sometimes.)

>

> > ok. if i take my dad as expression of the devine, and i am also an

> > expression of the devine, then there is no problem. the emotions,

and sideeffects, belonging to that play are " nesseccary " to make that

play lively.

> Are you being philosophical or spiritual here?

yes. i am. i'm in this thread still busy with: can one human being be

a problem to it's fellow or not?.

>

> Investigate the " sideeffects " . See how you could choose, how you did

> choose and find if what you got was any different from what you

> really expected.

+++ i have been reading my sentence several times. i don't remember

what i meant when i wrote the word " sideeffects " . that's interesting -

and - leaving an empty spot.

i thought that i have - maybe from that time, but one can never know

for sure - an attitude, to stay independend from people somehow

(before it was - as much as i was able to). they can change in any

moment. with a little distance it does not hurt that much, when they

start to " hit " .

>

> > as a kid i took it for normal. as an adult with a philosophical

> > background i could say: it's leela. (with or without " don't worry " )

> > growing older, i noticed, there are different kinds of parents/adults.

> > there are " fine " caring ones, there are " harsh " caring ones (i

> > simplify here). both care.

> Yes, you define them as " fine " and " harsh " .

>

> That's not good or bad, just notice.

ok. what do you prefer. a painful hit and another human of which you

are afraid of, or a caring stroke, a cheerful dance, and trust and

relaxed laughing with the other?

>

> > today, if someone would come to hit me, aggressively, trying to

> > overwhelm me, i could " chose " my reaction (if there's enough time and

> > i remember/manage to do it at that moment). i could stay, observe,

> > surrender, or i could defend, or i could try to " discuss " ... maybe

> > there are more possibilities.

> Yes: if, if, if...

> You don't have to justify your reaction. Not now, not back when you

> were a kid. You would do what you would do.

yes. i agree.

> > when i " manage " to stay in that all accepting " mood " /mode there's

no problem at all. neither on my side or on the other. the other then

is no problem, for there is no problem. there is only expression of life.

> > i'm not always in that mode/mood.

> >

> > any thoughts, inputs from you?

> Yes.

>

> When you are not in that all accepting mood, write down your thought.

> For later inestigation.

ok. imagine you meet someone today, you - coming from your bedroom,

dressed lightly or naked. you cannot escape, you are locked in the

house/flat. the other is much stronger, and even if there is another,

it does not help you. this strong being hit's you till you bleed.

is/would that person for you a problem or not?

>

again, thanks for reading this far, love, rose

not revised.