RE: Re: the other (one) is never my problem

[Guest guest]

> hey alexander,

>

> your response might be more a response to maria's then to my original

> posting.

> at the first moment i was impressed with your words. they sound so

> cute, and wise, and clever, and amazing. but my mind is busy with this

> topic so it does also have other aspects to your words;

So, thank you at first!

> here they are:

> what if i am blind?

> i cannot see a mirror.

> i can only sense the world through the remained senses.

> what if i am deaf as well.

You have all the senses you need, anyway. The " mirror " is an image,

as well. Because you KNOW that it only reflects. And when you're

blind, don't you have pictures, as well? And if you have sound only,

can't you HEAR that someone is angry? And could that be an

interpretation? And doesn't your mind go: " he's angry, because... " ,

" the way he shouts means that... " , and so on? Don't you project into

the future? Don't you project your past on what is?

" what is " is ... blank. You put the colors, the sounds, etc. to it.

And YOU define what that means. You interpret " what is " as loving,

hating, fun, boring... and you use images, sounds, smells, etc. for

that.

> i noticed as a young person, how my perception of my own self did

> change with the people i was with.

> for example if i was with a nice person, i could feel myself being

> more nice, or being more crass/crude, less fine.

> and the other way round. if someone was crude, i felt sometimes finer,

> etc..

yes. I remember doing that, also. Until I realized, that it is ALWAYS

about me. I used to use myself to understand others. What would I

have to go through, who would I have to be, to experience what he

does, to do what he does?

Now I use others to understand myself!

> i had developed something i called in my 30ties, feeling for the

> atmosphere in a room, among people and so on.

> i will ask the next blind person, if they have a sense like that.

They do. Everyone does. And it's a projection.

> the topic of " being exposed " was one that was interesting for me,

> during different periods of my life.

>

> when you are exposed in a dangerous/cruel setting where you cannot

> escape and you want to survive, you develop strategies to survive till

> you can escape. here you could say the other is your problem.

No. It's *you* who wants something. And you want that so desperate,

you would even kill for it!

For me it's about my peace. No-thing is more valuable than that. Not

even my own life. How do I breathe my last breath? Is it in fear, or

in love? And when I picture my last breath, how do I experience it?

> when you are in a setting where peace, harmony and cooperation is

> alive, you don't need these strategies. the other one is not your

> problem.

Yes. That's one part where you see it.

> still not done with that topic.

Thank you for working on it.

Love,

> thanks for responding and reading this far, love rose

> not revised

>

>> Hello!

>>

>> Yes, and...

>>

>> it goes the way " no two people have ever met " .

>>

>> When you look into a mirror, and you see yourself, how does it affect

>> your perceiption? Don't you start feeling different? All that

>> happens, is that your view changes. You see something you didn't see

>> just an instant before. And don't your feelings, your mood change

>> different to the other times? How would you feel, if you were not

>> looking at your mirror image, but through a window? Who are you, what

>> are you, depending of the thought " that's me " ?

>> And all that affects you are your thoughts about what you see: can

>> you remember or just imagine looking into a mirror, and thinking it's

>> a window? Experience how you change when your awareness shifts from

>> window to mirror to window to... maybe: it's a doll, to... nothing's

>> there.

>>

>> That's how you don't meet someone.

>>

>> And it's also how someone else can not be your problem.

>>

>> Love,

>>

>>

>> Am 23.12.2006 um 09:02 schrieb :

>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Hi!

>>>

>>> My experience is this:

>>>

>>> With the people I feel harmony with I don´t have any stressful

>>> stories. No stories of that I want or need anything from them, no

>>> stories that the should or shouldn´t do certain things.

>>>

>>> And with the people I have dissonances with I have all the stories

>>> about how the should behave and how they shouldn´t, and what I need

>>> and want from them.

>>>

>>> Who would I be without my stories? Who would I be together with THEM

>>> without my stories? When I do the work I always get the insight that

>>> the problems I have with other people lies in my thinking. I maybe

>>> have the thought that they should love me or listen to me. Maybe I

>>> want them to understand me or appologize to me. These are the

>>> thoughts that make me suffer, and without them I don´t have a

>>> problem with the " other " anymore.

>>>

>>> Love,

>>>

>>>>

>>>> hey alltogher,

>>>>

>>>> can you give feedback please?

>>>>

>>>> " only my thinking is my problem. "

>>>>

>>>> well. if i have a person next to me with which i can live in an

>>>> harmonious way, and there is another with which i am in dissonance,

>>>> doesn't if have a connection with the " other " ?

>>>>

>>>> i am not talking of compulisve or faked " harmony " .

>>>>

>>>> both are an offer, or maybe even a challenge, and yet it is

>>>> different.

>>>> in the outside world not only in my thinking.

>>>>

>>>> hm. i wonder about this a little bit since i have had so many

>>>> dissonances with people since a while.

>>>>

>>>> lr

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

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>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Rose,

>> Who would I be without my stories?

> *** good question. and nevertheless, as i am not done with this, i

> dive a bit into that. when i was a little kid, my dad, wasn't the kind

> to feel save and harmonious with. i was used to it, and didn't know it

> any different. (that recognition came later) i cannot remember a

> thought of: he should be different. in the backview i would say, i had

> a very sensitve senosory system, to adapt to his moods and keep/kept

> myself as save as possible within this framework.

>

> i cannot remember a thought of he should be different.

And you don't have to. What about now? Do you think he should have

been different, or be different in your memories? Would you feel more

comfortable, if you had had another Dad? One that was different from

yours? Would you react in a different way, when you listened to

stories about him, when you were talking about him?

Then I'd do the work.

> i dont know if it was just so, or if it was a reaction to living with

> him, but i had " so called " psychosomatic symptoms, such as nail biting

> and bedwetting.

what's not ok?

would it have been ok if it had been for another reason? If it had

not been that often? Which story do you feel most comfortable with, now?

> a psychologist would say there is a kausual connection between this,

> and the work perhaps would say can you absolutely be sure. i say, i

> dont know. could be something from another life as well. and so again

> - bottom line is: i don't know.

Good.

And I'd say: who cares?

And listen to what the psychologist has to say. What you have to say.

And I have no need to share it, or to go to war with it. Whatever you

say.

> fact is: i cannot remember a thought of " he should be different " and

> yet i remember being afraid of him.

> so in a way he was my problem. for if he had been a nice and adjuvant

> person, i might have developed differently.

> this is NOT, that i am blaming him. things were, the way they were.

> it's about the question if another is my problem or not.

It's about seeing that you are on your own. It's YOUR MIND you can

work with. Nothing else. And in that lies the solution to ALL of your

problems. No one can be my problem. That's MY priviledge.

>> Who would I be together with THEM without my stories?

> *** well according to my experience, i'ld be together with them,

> depending on my personal setting. whether i depend on them.

> materially, emotionally, whether i have enough freedom to move away,

> and i have others where i can find love and security (in germany we

> say " Geborgenheit " ).

> as a child i had no " no " against him, and yet i was taking care of my

> safety while being with him. but the first opportunity to move away

> from him, i took.

Yes.

How do you depend emotionally from someone. Isn't that believing a

thought like " I can not exist without him? " or " Without him it would

be even worse " ? How do you depend materially from someone. Isn't it

that you'd rather have something to eat than to leave? And can you

know you wouldn't have EVERYTHING you need if you left him?

So what does your freedom depend on, other than your thoughts? A

clear mind can move away or stay. A clear mind moves to comfort.

>> When I do the work I always get the insight that

>> the problems I have with other people lies in my thinking.

> *** are you always in a relaxed mood, that you can let the others do

> whatever they want, even if it might hurt you? i'm not. i can

> willingly open up to the opportunity to move back to that condition,

> but i am NOT always there. i am no shaolin monk (for example)

When I am clear, I do what *I* want to do.

AND know it!

That might look like jumping in front of a bus to save someone's

life. It may look like hitting someone with a weapon. It may look

like shouting at kid. It may look like washing the dishes.

>> I maybe

>> have the thought that they should love me or listen to me. Maybe I

>> want them to understand me or appologize to me. These are the

>> thoughts that make me suffer, and without them I don´t have a

>> problem with the " other " anymore.

> *** thank you maria, i hear you and i know from (own) experiences what

> you mean. and again, i am not always there. so i suffer (more or less)

> in between.

And whenever you suffer, it's a sign that your mind is off.

Love,

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[Guest guest]

Dear Rose,

> i think

> it's of no use to just nodd and " give in " and still have not reached a

> clear position over that. it's not that i am just renitent. it is that

> there are unclear areas, questions left.

Thank you for not " giving in " .

> this thread i will use to get somewhat more clear about that.

> could you please watch that clip,

>

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtjTKgioEu0

> a branch has an " intend " to move.

Don't you put an ego on the branch when you say he has an intent to

move?

When the branch hits you, do you get angry at it?

You see, the difference whether I get upset or not depends on whether

I take it personally or not.

The branch doesn't " want " to hit you. It moves, you are in the way.

For some it may be clear that the branch moving is not about them.

On the other hand, sometimes people get angry at a computer...

> if our movements cross, it comes to an encounter you could call hit.

Yes. Look, it's not about words. You can investigate into a " hit " as

well as into a " movement " . My guess is that a " hit " can be more

stressful than a " movement " . So, look at that father/branch thing,

and explore: " he hit me. " I mean, when there is a storm going on, and

there's a lot of movement in the forest: branches swing back and

forth, trees rock, and if it is a strong storm, trees may fall.

I'd say that we don't go into the forest when there's a big storm

going on.

And now take this analogy to your father: Did you have any clues

whether there was a storm going on? Can you remember how you reacted?

Did you try to stay safe, rather than playing in the forest? Was it

the other way around? Let's say he was always in a bad mood, always

about to hit, or to do whatever he did: were there times that it

was... stronger?

Now let's see what else you write...

> most probably it would not be the same branch that hits repetetively,

would that make any difference? Look, you are going off, here. That's

not a bad/good thing, just notice when you do, so that you can catch

yourself when it's not what you want.

And it wasn't the same father that hit you, either. Sometimes it was

a man with a bad mood, sometimes with a good mood, sometimes he was

sick, sometimes he was... whatever he was. And you noted the

differences, didn't you?

> and it does not do it with intend (to castigate, to educate, to

> release an overload of stress or desperation, or anger)

This is where you take it to a personal level? Now it's an action

against you. It was his job. Because that's what he did.

> i can break that branch.

Doesn't matter, there'll always be enough ready to hit you.

> i could not break my father as a kid. i don't

> know if i would have even wished to break him.

Doesn't matter.

> i wanted to be save and happy.

Is that really true?

Go back to a place where it was really hard for you, where you wished

to be save and happy real bad. Didn't any solutions come into your

mind? Solutions that you put off? The times I was most desperate

where the times when I had the most beautiful dreams and compared

them with what I had. And I resignated to the life that was meant for

me. That's how it felt. I didn't know how to do otherwise. Now I do,

and I can see that I could have chosen differently.

Can you relate to that?

> i could not defend myself against my father.

> physically i had no chance. and the " energy " he " signalised " was

> intensively dangerous.

> i could try to controll the situation/setting with obeying, being

> outside the house away from him, being less vivid than i was.

I hear that you wanted to be more vivid, knowing that it could cost

your safety.

> ok. if i take my dad as expression of the devine, and i am also an

> expression of the devine, then there is no problem. the emotions, and

> sideeffects, belonging to that play are " nesseccary " to make that play

> lively.

Are you being philosophical or spiritual here?

Investigate the " sideeffects " . See how you could choose, how you did

choose and find if what you got was any different from what you

really expected.

> as a kid i took it for normal. as an adult with a philosophical

> background i could say: it's leela. (with or without " don't worry " )

> growing older, i noticed, there are different kinds of parents/adults.

> there are " fine " caring ones, there are " harsh " caring ones (i

> simplify here). both care.

Yes, you define them as " fine " and " harsh " .

That's not good or bad, just notice.

> today, if someone would come to hit me, aggressively, trying to

> overwhelm me, i could " chose " my reaction (if there's enough time and

> i remember/manage to do it at that moment). i could stay, observe,

> surrender, or i could defend, or i could try to " discuss " ... maybe

> there are more possibilities.

Yes: if, if, if...

You don't have to justify your reaction. Not now, not back when you

were a kid. You would do what you would do.

> when i " manage " to stay in that all accepting " mood " /mode there's no

> problem at all. neither on my side or on the other. the other then is

> no problem, for there is no problem. there is only expression of life.

> i'm not always in that mode/mood.

>

> any thoughts, inputs from you?

Yes.

When you are not in that all accepting mood, write down your thought.

For later inestigation.

> thanks for reading this far, love, rose

Love,

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[Guest guest]

> could you please watch that clip,

> >

> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtjTKgioEu0

did you watch the first few minutes of that clip?

* yes, I watched the clip. I love his analogies and metaphors.

> > a branch has an " intend " to move.

> Don't you put an ego on the branch when you say he has an intent to

> move?

what you call " ego " is not what i had in mind. that's why i had put

the word intend into " " .

* yes. What I understood is that the branch, in some way chooses to move...

Like at a certain point it was clear that he would move in the future. That this

movement is predetermined at a certain point of time.

I don't think so.

> When the branch hits you, do you get angry at it?

>

> You see, the difference whether I get upset or not depends on

> whether I take it personally or not.

nevertheless, right! i remember moments when hitting branches were

hitting branches. i remember a moment when i was already down, and

went against a branch for i was looking down to the ground and that

hit/stroke was too much for me to stand, and i started to weep.

sometimes such a tiny thing can be the " last drop "

* ok, these hitting branches are your father, beating, right? And I love how

you see the difference in the hits from your father. Try to move from the

consciousness how you felt back then, to the consciousness how you feel TODAY

when you dive into your memories as a kid.

Because that's the only place you can work with.

> > if our movements cross, it comes to an encounter you could call

hit.

> Yes. Look, it's not about words. You can investigate into a " hit " as

> well as into a " movement " . My guess is that a " hit " can be more

> stressful than a " movement " . So, look at that father/branch thing,

> and explore: " he hit me. "

*** it's kind of mad. it's in a way somehow like a question to me, as

if i was mad, and a hit is not a hit. I am not eager to be the victim.

it's not about that.

* I don't care what it's about. I care about how you feel, now, and about how

you play with your thoughts.

to me a stick in the hand of an aggressive

father, beating down on a naked buttock of a child bending over a sofa

is a hit. and that hit is over.

* Yes, it is over. So we can concentrate on what's left: the feelings,

emotions, etc. you have today when you remember. That's what you can influence,

and that's where your father has nothing to say with. And that's how the other

one can never be your problem. Because as soon as something happens, it's over.

And over. And over. And all that's left hasn't happened, yet.

we had a bird here, to care for over the holidays, it was only in my

daughters room, because we have a cat. usually the cat was either in

the living room, or outside the house, but then the curtain of my

daughters window was closed. one day not.

so one moment the cat was suddenly jumping on the ledge, outside of

the house, at the gardenside. the bird instantly, when it noticed the

cat and began to fly rapidly, in rather exited movements, the bird

inside the room. as soon as we closed the curtain, the bird calmed

down again.

that was somehow like symbolic to me.

somehow i feel like " that bird " .

* and here you are wandering off, again. Thank you for your story. And be

aware that they have nothing to do with your thoughts about your father beating

a child.

> Now let's see what else you write...

> >

> > most probably it would not be the same branch that hits

> > repetetively,

> would that make any difference? Look, you are going off, here.

yes. sometimes i go off, simply because i sometimes write things down

and then think it's too much (amount) and cut out bit's and pieces to

come down to the extract. and then sometimes someone comes into the

room, i get distracted and loose the correct track.

this happens. must i apologize? ; -)) no. i'm sorry. i try to be as

clear as possible, still sometimes these things happen.

> That's

> not a bad/good thing, just notice when you do, so that you can catch

> yourself when it's not what you want.

yes! the second reason is, my mind goes off for being afraid, or

whatever.

* right: whatever. Your mind goes off. So that you can catch it. And get back

to inquiry.

> And it wasn't the same father that hit you, either. Sometimes it was

> a man with a bad mood, sometimes with a good mood, sometimes he was

> sick, sometimes he was... whatever he was. And you noted the

> differences, didn't you?

i can say for sure, that i noticed differenced in intensity. i have no

memories of giving myself explanations to that. i noticed danger from

his side and my " security programm started " just like the mentioned

bird, just perhaps somehow more invisible.

* good. Ultimately father beating child is love meeting love. Sounds extreme,

doesn't it? This is not about condonig your father. It's about you experience

YOUR love for HIM. And YOUR love towards YOURSELF. And when you experience that,

the " what " , " why " and " who " become sooo unimportant. And applying the work to

our thoughts, helps us find this place.

> > and it does not do it with intend (to castigate, to educate, to

> > release an overload of stress or desperation, or anger)

> This is where you take it to a personal level?

yes, you can say so. did you get beatend by your parents?

* I can't remember. My father remembers.

do you beat your kids?

* I got as close as screaming at them, and being *very* rough. And I hope I

won't ever, ever experience that again. Hm... I could inquire into that.

do you sometimes feel the impulse to do so, and if yes, what do you

then think and do?

* I used to. Nowadays, somehow awareness shifts, and I get thankful that I

don't have to, anymore. I get compassionate about how I felt, and compassionate

about my kids who endured that for me. And for what they did when they had to.

> Now it's an action

> against you. It was his job. Because that's what he did.

ok. that's what bk says and what's " common " in the work. i am not

clear if i (in my ego) agree to it, or want to agree to it.

a human is not an animal and not a branch.

a human can ambush, a branch does/can not.

some animals can.

ok.

* Yes. It's not about the work. says it, because it's true for her. Some

people may pretend that it was their truth. You say that a human is not an

animal and not a branch. And you tell us, where they differ, according to you.

You share your story: a human can ambush, a branch can not, some animals can.

* Everyone does his job. You know one should do what he does because that is

what he does. To see that is to experience divinity.

* And if you believe the thought that anything is not exactly how it should

be, you suffer. According to me. That's the ONLY reason for you to realize that

everything is the way it should be. To get there, you must find that there is NO

LEGITIMATE REASON whatsoever for you to suffer. To realize that, you have to

suffer. As much as it takes. Whatever it takes.

* And that is the ONLY reason for you to suffer. No one else can do that to

you. You will only find your keys where you dropped them, no matter how much

light the streetlamps shed. And you won't find ANY peace outside of yourself.

Because it's not the outside that's off. It's your mind.

when a dad comes and beats his kids for they are chatting somewhat in

the bed after 8pm, they are kids having fun, being alive, that's

different to a stick/branch. isn't it?

* No. And it doesn't matter. As long as the adult, remembering being a kid is

not aware of his part in his suffering, he won't find peace. And the only person

who's concern that is, is this same adult.

* But you can get the same amount of suffering with a stick/branch, if you

care.

now you can say: that's his job. and ok, according to the work that's right.

* Not " according to the work " . According to you! Because what's what he does.

at that moment - at that past - he was my problem, for i never knew

when he got his tantrums. today it's over, but you know after one of

your postings i was busy with the question and an inner conflict of,

why did i not protect myself better from him? the simple answer is: i

was afraid and did not knew any better way to cope with the situation.

* Before you deal with your problems in the past, deal with your problems in

the present. Who are you when you remember this past? Explore there. You didn't

protect yourself because you didn't. That's it. And you love him.

....

> > i wanted to be save and happy.

> Is that really true?

yes. i think so. i have described in the other postings which ways i

found to care about myself. and i am a human that's able to experience

deep joy. so i charged my batteries outside and beared what was inside

our house.

* And you did not run away. Look: can you remember the place where you had the

thought about running away? And you found all the good reasons not to? And can

you find the - maybe split-second - time where you did not believe them and

stayed anyway?

* ok, I am going, maybe I'll find time to answer the rest of the mail at a

later time.

*Take care. Love,

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[Guest guest]

*** =T

Depression, for instance: what is that. How would I know I am depressed? I

experience sadness, all right. But how do I know it's depression? I don't

leave bed for days, feel bad all the time. So I have one definition of

depression. If I am in a depressed state and I can remember not having

always been in that state, it must have a starting point. When is that? When

my father died. Ok, now I remember, I was in a bad mood since then, and that

I am depressed since then. And when was the first time I realized I was

depressed? ... And so on.

This way, depression becomes rather interesting. And the question " I am

depressed. Is it true? " rather difficult to answer with an absolute " yes " .

*** , How come? Please explain!

[Guest guest]

>> Depression, for instance: what is that. How would I know I am

>> depressed? I

>> experience sadness, all right. But how do I know it's depression?

>> I don't

>> leave bed for days, feel bad all the time. So I have one

>> definition of

>> depression. If I am in a depressed state and I can remember not

>> having

>> always been in that state, it must have a starting point. When is

>> that? When

>> my father died. Ok, now I remember, I was in a bad mood since

>> then, and that

>> I am depressed since then. And when was the first time I realized

>> I was

>> depressed? ... And so on.

>>

>> This way, depression becomes rather interesting. And the question

>> " I am

>> depressed. Is it true? " rather difficult to answer with an

>> absolute " yes " .

> *** , How come? Please explain!

Find the non-depression states you have in your worst nightmare

depression.

when you sleep. When you have other thoughts (I have to go to the

bathroom! what's for dinner? etc)

Love,

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