Re: In need of URGENT advice on the decontamination process.

July 16, 2007

Should more walls be opened? This depends more on where the moisture

was or is than where the spores are now. The initial inspection (or

one now) along with building history, event history, building

materials, structure, psychrometric conditions etc etc wil be

important.

The cross-contamination issue is one instance when I advocate mold

sampling. One type of sampling plan is to determine the marker

organism (or the one of health concern) and sample to find the

boundaries of where it spread. Then clean those areas. Or, instead of

testing just HEPA vac and damp wipe the entire house. Whichever is

more practical and cost effective.

My guess is the " industrial hygienist " is using that label rather

than having a degree in IH or being a Certified IH. (He sure took a

lot of samples!) If he actually is a CIH consider going to the AIHA

Web site www.aiha.org and report a violation of their code of ethics.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> These results are post-remediation. We initially called an industrial

hygienist, and he sent his team to do the remediation, without overseeing the

project himself. We later found out that the company is known for testing only,

and should not be doing remediation. The team wore suits (dust suits that we

gave them, as we had them on hand for other types of work, they didn't even come

with their own appropriate suits!) that were not changed from the containment

area to walk around the house after opening the walls. They brought out papers

and other items, still with the suits on that had been worn in the containment

area. No scope of work was determined, and they kept extending the work over

several days.

>

> The stachy and also the chaetomium were found on surfaces near the

containment area, and also on another floor of the house. Chaetomium was also

airborne on another floor of the house, where the workers had walked. We are

wondering if they brought some of these toxic molds with them to our house, or

if they just spread them around the house from inside the walls (since no

testing was done until after they left).

>

> We had an independent hygienist do the testing. However, we still have not

nailed down the scope of follow-up work (except for cleaning the surfaces). How

do we know if cleaning alone will be sufficient, or if additional removal of

floors/walls is necessary to ensure clearance? Clearly, we will be using another

company to do the follow-up. Any recommendations as to how we can resolve this

mess?

>

> We are not planning to return to the house, as per the advice of our

doctors. However, even though we have evacuated, we still need to decontaminate

ourselves. Any recommendations? It seems to be sticking to us, and is even on

our eyelashes (which we have now trimmed but have not removed in their

entirety). We have read Dr. Klein's website and are wondering if anyone has had

success with his protocol in terms of personal decontamination.

>

> jrbilotta <jason@...> wrote:

> are these test results pre-remediation or post-remediation?

> Also, where was the stachy found (ie lifted off a wall or in a cavity?

> Did the hygienist put together a remediation protocol or was the

> scope of work determined by the remediation contractor?

> Is the hygienist working with you or the contractor to resolve this?

>

> > >

> > > We were exposed to Chaetomium and Stachybotrys after a botched

> > > remediation and are desperately trying to decontaminate. We are

> > > following Dr. ph Klein's protocol of changing hotels / hotel

> > > rooms, replacing clothing, and are routinely shaving our heads,

> > > eyebrows, arms, legs, etc. We have gone through a combination of 25

> > > hotels/hotel rooms, discarding our clothing prior to the entrance at

> > > each changeover for the past six weeks. However, we are still

> > > experiencing symptoms which include aberrant sensations i.e.,

> > > vibrations/pulsations, sleep disturbances, difficulty concentrating,

> > > psycho-motor slowing, fatigue, headaches, and skin-rashes. We have

> > > not removed our eyelashes but are trying to remove the spores by

> > > vigorously rubbing them with a dry paper towel. We have had temporary

> > > relief from this method but quickly seem to recontaminate. In your

> > > opinion, at this point, would it be advisable to trim and or remove

> > > our eyelashes and/or hair inside sensory organs, e.g., nose/ears?

> > > In addition, one of us is in need of dental crowns but are

> > > concerned that mold spores will be sealed permanently into/under the

> > > new crowns. Suddenly while on our hotel jaunt, one of us is

> > > experiencing a problem with existing porcelain crowns. Within the

> > > last two weeks, they appear to be discintegrating. Could these porus

> > > crowns also be be exascerbating our problem? Furthermore, we have

> > > not given up one dental night-guard or one pair of mandatory eye-

> > > glasses. Another concern is that we are fearful of contaminating the

> > > dental office. Also, can anyone recommend a hotel chain(s) that is

> > > better for those with chemical sensitivities / mold toxicities? Any

> > > advice on any/all of these issues would be more than greatly

> > > appreciated.

> > > We are at our wits end.

> > > Signed,

> > > Two Homeless Desperate Souls,

> > > One who is currently a disabled Neuroscientist

> > >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Be a PS3 game guru.

> > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

> Games.

> >

July 17, 2007

>

> Thank you so much for your input regarding plastic items--I will

need to make arrangements to get rid of them. You said that stachy

mycotoxins don't stick to body hair--but what about chaetomium (we

were exposed to stachy and chaetomium)? I wonder if it's the

chaetomium that is sticking to hair. And, if any of them does stick to

hair, what do people do about eyelashes? After all, they are hair. I'm

somewhat confused about which mycotoxin is having which effect. Also,

which one becomes a bioaerosol? I've had definite sensations of a dry

spray, as if it were coming out of an aerosol can. Do you know? I'd

greatly appreciate some clarification, if anyone can help. Thank you

very much.

>

Hello,

I did not explicitly say that Stachy mycotoxins can't stick to or

enter the structure of body hair - maybe they can. But, in my

experience - and I have been exposed to a relatively small

concentration of stachy toxins - the body hair and hair on the head

didn't really adsorb the toxin. It could be washed away with ordinary

shampoo.

I am not sure what happens if one is exposed to a higher concentration

of stachy mycotoxins. I have read people had to shave their heads.

I don't have any information about chaetomium. It looks as if it can

do a lot of damage. Take a look at this URL:

http://mold-help.org/content/view/412/0/

The main message from my previous post was that the plastic documents

and objects you carry with yourself may easily be the reason you can't

run away from the contamination. I don't exclude the possibility of

body hair becoming contaminated. But I haven't experienced such

contaminations (thank Heavens).

As for your question about which mycotoxin becomes aerosol. The

mycotoxins that are hardest to get rid of from posessions are

trichothecenes. They are divided into groups A, B, C, and D.

I'm not sure, but Fusarium molds make trichothecenes that belong to

groups A and B, while Stachy makes trichothecenes that belong to group

D and some other toxic compounds that are not trichothecenes

(stachylysin, atranones etc.). Stachy trichothecenes are macrycyclic

and are 5-10 times more toxic than those made by e.g. Fusarium. You

can probably find the list of toxins for each mold on mold-help.org.

There was a very nice list on the website of Texas Tech University but

it doesn't appear it's still online.

All trichothecenes inside a contaminated building act like a vapour

that is a little below the density of air so it tends to accumulate on

the floor. Trichothecene mycotoxins are very small organic molecules

and they can thus penetrate a lot of materials that otherwise appear

totally impervious on the first sight. Some people liken it to

radioactive emissions, because of this penetration ability.

I have observed that certain metals, and perhaps even glass, can

become a little contaminated if exposed to trichothecenes for a longer

time. Perhaps the first layer absorbs a little, just enough to make

our lives miserable

-Branislav

July 17, 2007

I think that mold in air DOES stick a LOT to hair. I think we all here have

agreed a long time ago that mold sticks to hair a lot.

Its probably because of a lot of things.. static charges, tiny amount of

skin oil on hair, etc. the tiny size of the most toxic mold particles, much

smaller than spores alone..

Branislav is right.. Hair is a mold *magnet* Hair acts like one of those

swiffer things.. it picks up dust and the dust sticks..

July 17, 2007

Thank you for your helpful post and interesting link. I totally understand I'll

have to get rid of the plastic cards and order new eyeglasses.

If you don't mind, I have a few more questions. How do you know if symptoms

such as tremors are due to continuing contamination, or to the spores or

mycotoxins inside your body? I know that when I feel the aerosol spray, it must

be from contaminated objects (like when I pick up something that had been on the

floor). But when it's tremors or feelings of vibration, what is that from? For

instance, sometimes I'll sit on a chair and feel vibration where I'm sitting.

Are there mold spores/mycotoxins on the chair? or is it in me?

Also, is there a method that most people use to acquire new, uncontaminated

things without contaminating them during purchase? For instance, we buy new

clothing while wearing the contaminated ones, thereby cross-contaminating the

new ones. We'll need to wear the old eyeglasses to go to the store to order new

ones, if we want to see where we're going. Any suggestions?

Thanks so much again for all your help.

Branislav <arealis@...> wrote:

--- In , Oldy Moldy <moldhostage@...>

wrote:

>

> Thank you so much for your input regarding plastic items--I will

need to make arrangements to get rid of them. You said that stachy

mycotoxins don't stick to body hair--but what about chaetomium (we

were exposed to stachy and chaetomium)? I wonder if it's the

chaetomium that is sticking to hair. And, if any of them does stick to

hair, what do people do about eyelashes? After all, they are hair. I'm

July 17, 2007

Thank you very much for your post. This does explain why we can't seem to get it

off our eyelashes. For how long do most people need to keep up this

decontamination routine of changing hotel rooms? (It's becoming exhausting). Is

there a time that the symptoms ever subside?

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

I think that mold in air DOES stick a LOT to hair. I think we all here

have

agreed a long time ago that mold sticks to hair a lot.

Its probably because of a lot of things.. static charges, tiny amount of

skin oil on hair, etc. the tiny size of the most toxic mold particles, much

smaller than spores alone..

Branislav is right.. Hair is a mold *magnet* Hair acts like one of those

swiffer things.. it picks up dust and the dust sticks..

July 17, 2007

Your questions about what is causing your complaints is the $64

billion question.

Part of the reason is it isn't always as simple as A causes B but not

C. Other times A does cause C and sometimes it causes nothing.

The total load concept may help to understand. A reaction may occur

because of all the other exposures you are experiencing. As an

analogy, pretend you are driving a truck over the mountains carrying

1000 pounds of lead and a 1000 pounds of feathers. If you can't quite

make it over the top of the pass, would you lighten the load by

getting rid of the lead or the feathers? It wouldn't make any

difference because 1000 pounds is a 1000 pounds.

Another analogy. Imagine a camel carrying many bales of straw. You

add another bale and the camel wobbles but doesn't fall down. Then

you add just one tiny straw and it breaks the camel's back. Removing

the tiny straw won't help. You have to remove most if not all of the

total load of straw. Then only after the camel heals can it begin to

carry gradually heavier loads. In the meantime, no matter what you

put on its back, it hurts.

Sometimes the exposure causes a reaction and sometimes it makes an

existing condition worse. The effect on us is the same, but the

solution is different. And that increases the complexity even more.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Thank you for your helpful post and interesting link. I totally understand

I'll have to get rid of the plastic cards and order new eyeglasses.

>

> If you don't mind, I have a few more questions. How do you know if symptoms

such as tremors are due to continuing contamination, or to the spores or

mycotoxins inside your body? I know that when I feel the aerosol spray, it must

be from contaminated objects (like when I pick up something that had been on the

floor). But when it's tremors or feelings of vibration, what is that from? For

instance, sometimes I'll sit on a chair and feel vibration where I'm sitting.

Are there mold spores/mycotoxins on the chair? or is it in me?

>

> Also, is there a method that most people use to acquire new, uncontaminated

things without contaminating them during purchase? For instance, we buy new

clothing while wearing the contaminated ones, thereby cross-contaminating the

new ones. We'll need to wear the old eyeglasses to go to the store to order new

ones, if we want to see where we're going. Any suggestions?

>

> Thanks so much again for all your help.

>

> Branislav <arealis@...> wrote:

> --- In , Oldy Moldy <moldhostage@...>

wrote:

> >

> > Thank you so much for your input regarding plastic items--I will

> need to make arrangements to get rid of them. You said that stachy

> mycotoxins don't stick to body hair--but what about chaetomium (we

> were exposed to stachy and chaetomium)? I wonder if it's the

> chaetomium that is sticking to hair. And, if any of them does stick to

> hair, what do people do about eyelashes? After all, they are hair. I'm

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

July 18, 2007

> If you don't mind, I have a few more questions. How do

>you know if symptoms such as tremors are due to continuing

>contamination, or to the spores or mycotoxins inside your

>body? I know that when I feel the aerosol spray, it must be

>from contaminated objects (like when I pick up something

>that had been on the floor). But when it's tremors or feelings

>of vibration, what is that from? For instance, sometimes I'll

>sit on a chair and feel vibration where I'm sitting. Are there

>mold spores/mycotoxins on the chair? or is it in me?

Some of us moldies have what is usually called " the mold sense " . It's

not really the 6th sense, but a combination of the sense of touch, and

some symptoms that appear immediately after one touches or comes near

a contaminated object. I have such mold sense, and a pretty precise at

that. It gives me the " information " about the level of contamination

of an object or area virtually in real time - in just a few seconds.

In my case, even when I was quite healthy for a long period of time,

whenever I come across a contaminated object I will get these sensations:

1. Skin itching that later can become burning. Alternatively, I can

first feel as if someone attached some heavy " soap foam " on my body.

This also usually becomes burning after a while. I first sense this on

the left part of my body, even if the whole body was equally exposed.

2. The first sensation is usually accompanied with a sensation of

slight nausea. I can feel as if I am inhaling certain particles

similar to dust (then I presume it's spores that have mycotoxins in /

on them). Sometimes it doesn't feel like I am inhaling the dust but

only a kind of vapor that burns the lungs and stomach inside (then I

presume it's mostly mycotoxins).

3. After about 10 minutes I usually get my first GI tract symptoms

that in the previous years almost always came down to loose and

frequent stools and the constant nauseated feeling. This year I also

suffered from constipation for a long time. It was VERY unpleasant and

scary.

4. If I don't decontaminate promptly, other symptoms can follow - such

as neurological problems and severe aggravation of GI tract problems.

I can't sleep well, or don't feel refreshed after sleep.

So as you see, the first three " indicators " are what is usually

referred to as the " Mold Sense " . If one decontaminates quickly, these

sensations go away very quickly (one hour at most) and other more

serious symptoms do NOT develop. Point 4 would be the transition from

the " Mold Sense " to a more permanent condition that doesn't disappear

as soon as one is removed from the contaminated area / objects.

Some people have this highly developed Mold Sense, some don't. It

seems it cannot be learned, it seems it is innate. The Mold Sense is

of GREAT help in decontamination and avoidance processes, because you

can almost always know instantly what is contaminated and what is not.

You can thus prevent further cross-contamination of other, up to that

point, clean objects.

So, do you have anything similar to what I've just explained? When you

say you sense " the areosol " , what exactly do you feel? And in what

organ - skin or somewhere else?

If you have tremors or feelings of vibration inside the body, I would

say it is almost certainly NOT the immediate reaction to some

contaminated object. It's much more likely your body has been loaded

with toxins and these are already symptoms unrelated directly to

objects around you (which doesn't mean that the contaminated objects

cannot aggravate or prolong such a condition).

Usually time heals best these symptoms, provided you're in a clean

environment. CSM (Cholestyraimine) should also help with these

symptoms. But CSM is NOT a substitution for a clean environment.

After one big contamination disaster this March, after about 2 months

of decontamination, I managed to decontamiante myself, my clothes and

my surroundings to an acceptable level. In other words, I didn't feel

the symptoms described under points 1-3. However, I still had really

bad tremors for a few days. I remember my hands were involuntarily

shaking while I was showing the book Mold Warriors to my GP doctor.

> Also, is there a method that most people use to acquire

>new, uncontaminated things without contaminating them during

>purchase? For instance, we buy new clothing while wearing the

>contaminated ones, thereby cross-contaminating the new ones. We'll

>need to wear the old eyeglasses to go to the store to order new ones,

>if we want to see where we're going. Any suggestions?

My advice on this is something that I really can't vouch for. I have

never been slammed by such a huge contamination. So you'll have to

take these recommendations with a rather big pinch of salt. Certainly

you can ask other, older moldies that already went through this type

of thing.

Generally, it is recommended that when you're bying new clothes, you

don't approach them at all, let alone touch them. Just tell the clerk

to pack some that match your size in double plastic bag.

Plastic that's used to wrap clothes can absorb toxins to some extent,

but it's not as bad as the plastic used for credit cards, and it will

act as a kind of barrier for the clothes.

As for the eyeglasses - can you just phone some reputable

ophtamologist and tell him / her what is your dioptre and ask that the

lenses be put into a quality metallic frame (sting for example)? Then

you come to pick them up when you're already decontaminated.

This part about glasses could be a bit of exaggeration, since glasses

made of metal and genuine glass lenses are much more imprervious to

mycotoxins, and temporary exposures to mycotoxin vapors shouldn't

contaminate them so easily... but you can decide to be extra cautious,

because the toxins in new glasses could become entrapped between the

lenses and metal frame during assemblage. Again, this could be an

exaggeration.

Or maybe you know a friend who hasn't come into contact with you or

your house since the mold incident, and can get you the new glasses?

Good luck,

-Branislav

July 18, 2007

All I can say to this is that I have tremors/spasticity, etc., because of my CNS

damage.......

July 18, 2007

me too, and things that aggervate my cns make it worse.

--- In , " " <toriaquilts@...>

wrote:

>

> All I can say to this is that I have tremors/spasticity, etc.,

because of my CNS damage.......

>

July 18, 2007

PNS included.

>

> All I can say to this is that I have tremors/spasticity, etc.,

because of my CNS damage.......

>

July 18, 2007

isn't THAT the truth!!!!!!!!!!!

take care,

victoria :>(

[] Re: In need of URGENT advice on the decontamination

process.

me too, and things that aggervate my cns make it worse.

>

> All I can say to this is that I have tremors/spasticity, etc.,

because of my CNS damage.......

>

July 18, 2007

yep, that too......

victoria

[] Re: In need of URGENT advice on the decontamination

process.

PNS included.

>

> All I can say to this is that I have tremors/spasticity, etc.,

because of my CNS damage.......

>

July 18, 2007

Could I ask a few questions specifically about decontamination? I'm writing on

behalf of a friend with no web access who has been dealing with the aftermath of

a mold exposure at her parents' house over a year ago. She now has a pretty

good doctor and is in a safe, clean environment, but almost completely isolated

from friends and family, even though none of us has been around that house or

its contents for at least 8 months. More than a few minutes in our presence

leaves her suffering with a similar set of symptoms to what you describe,

typically persisting a week. She says it feels like an attenuated version of

the symptoms she had from the original mold exposure, and not like how it feels

after exposure to any of the chemicals to which she is also sensitive.

So it seems that our efforts to wash and scrub the toxins off of ourselves,

and to only see her in new, uncontaminated clothes aren't good enough. So I'm

wondering if anyone has found anything else to be helpful. Surely we should

become less toxic just with the passage of time, no? Most importantly, she's

been separated from her husband for almost 6 months, and it's unclear when or

how he might be able to move in with her. He has gotten rid of everything they

own, sold their house, and moved in with an uncontaminated friend, but still is

not " clean " .

Any advice on decontamination, both for " moldies " and non- " moldies " , as well

as tips on how we might actually get to spend time together would be HUGELY

appreciated.

Thanks,