Re: Shoemaker or other relief

[Guest guest]

Is Zeolite for human use? I have never seen it advertised as such..

[Guest guest]

http://www.mwt.net/~drbrewer/zeolite.htm

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> Is Zeolite for human use? I have never seen it advertised as such..

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes Zeolite binds some mycotoxins, but unfortunately not trichothecnes

which are our greatest problem. A little search on pubmed.com will

produce a lot of studies.

The other supplements mentioned in the first post are good for overall

energy, but will not remove the sensitivity to mycotoxins.

Cholestyramine (CSM) is touted as the best mycotoxin binder, for

internal use only. Then follow activated charcoal, chitosan (not quite

recommended), and Actos as an antiinflammatory agent.

-Branislav

> >

> > Is Zeolite for human use? I have never seen it advertised as such..

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Glenn,

I know there are many members here that have had mixed results, but

this just goes to show, everyone is different and there are too many

variables to determine 100% one way or the other. Some people in the

past have claimed they are doing Dr.S's protocol, when in fact they

are not either doing it properly or the full protocol, for many

different reasons.

The results can vary, of course from person to person depending on

many things, their condition/immune response prior to exposure, also

what they've been exposed to, the length of time, the levels and how

much damage it has caused to organs, not to mention if you have the

genotype that makes you more susceptible.

I've had my wife to several of the leading physicians and they are

all good in their own rights and treatments. Again, it is what works

for you. But in my opinion we've had the best results with Dr.S (and

yes, she is a patient of his)at least a positive, noticeable

results. But this doesn't mean other treatmens that were performed

didn't have any effect. I'm sure they probably did, just not as

noticeable.

Even we haven't been able to do all of Dr.Shoemaker's required

treatment, for several reasons. Some medication before starting

certain blood levels have to be within range, and we are having a

difficult time addressing some of these levels and it can also come

down to finances. Not that his charges are out of line, we just ran

out of money. But we do plan on continuing with hopefully in the

future.

I will have to say the CSM (for her) has helped tremendously,

reducing some of the inflamation, flareups and the severity of some

symptoms. Some that have almost completely disappeared. She did not

have any negative effects taking the CSM like some others have. But

then again my wife has always said she may be a little different

than most, (grin, smack, lol.) It has definately been a step in the

right direction and I am very pleased with the results we have seen,

but we do have a long ways to go and we do know any permenant damage

to organs is very unlikely to repair 100%.

There is new scientific research that he is continuously working on

and involved with. This man and his knowledge and determination to

find a solution to our nightmare is mind boggling. But I also do not

want to take away from any of the other doctors that are continuing

to do the same thing. This is why we always have hope, who knows

what tomorrow may bring as far as treatment(s).

KC

>

> Anyone have relief or return to normal with the Shoemaker protocol

or any

> help with natural detox. supplements?

>

> What about NAC, Lipoic Acid, Zeolite or anything else?

>

> Glenn

>

>

>

> ************************************** See what's free at

http://www.aol.com.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, there is also a new liquid form called NCD (Natural Cellular Defense),

but be careful if you try it. Some people swear by it and others like myself

couldn't even handle one drop while the daily dosage is 10 drops 3x's a day. I

think that would have to do with our inability to expel toxins.

Glenn

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Guest guest]

'Liquid form' of WHAT?

Cholestyramine is a bile acid sequestrant, and it has a proven track record

of removing MYCO-toxins from enterohepatic recirculation. People who are

coming out of mold nightmares don't really have the freedom to experiment

as the MYCO-toxins are among the most destructive substances known to

living things. The mycotoxin binding agents that work are cholestyramine,

welchol (I don't know the relative efficacy compared to cholestyramine on

welchol)

activated charcoal (only at the very most 2/3 as effective usually much less

on many mycotoxins) and perhaps some others. I have heard a lot of people

talking up this or that but I haven't seen any facts on the efficacy of

binding

mycotoxins on " Zeolite " etc. HAVE ANY HUMAN STUDIES BEEN DONE?

If not, but there are animal studies, lets see them.

I know the nutritional supplement biz is a very crowded field and these days

the

buzz is around so called 'viral marketing' on Internet bulletin boards, etc.

but

VERY sick people need FACTS, not slick marketing babble..

Many people don't have health insurance and are desperate for something like

cholestyramine that works and doesn't cost an arm and a leg, but for them

the

best current option is probably to try to find an open minded doctor and

show them

Shoemakers time series paper from his web site moldwarriors.com or his book,

Mold Warriors.

Some other supplements may help the body deal with some toxins but GOD,

there are probably around a million different toxins in this world. Mold

toxins are

particularly destructive and they also are particularly difficult to deal

with for the body.

There are a number of generally useful substances in fighting environmental

toxins,

things like n-acetylcysteine and alpha lipoic acid, Vitamins C, E, A, D,

selenium, zinc,

many B complex vitamins like thiamin, B12, B5, B6, riboflavin, Coenzyme Q10,

whey protein, SAMe, etc. Even some clays like kaolin (the kao in kaopectate)

I am sure there are others.. But just saying something helps detoxify is I

don't think

very useful if the statement lacks some kind of solid foundation in fact.

Especially,

people NEED TO KNOW WHAT A PRODUCT IS.. not just some marketing name...

" Super turbo detox elixir " or whatever doesn't cut it..

Terms like " Natural " are meaningless in this context.. Crap, remember that

mold

is also natural.. Would you buy Super Natural

Stachybotrys Smoothies just because of the

'natural' in the name? do you follow me? DON'T!

On 6/18/07, i2ubin31@... <i2ubin31@...> wrote:

>

> Yes, there is also a new liquid form called NCD (Natural Cellular

> Defense),

> but be careful if you try it. Some people swear by it and others like

> myself

> couldn't even handle one drop while the daily dosage is 10 drops 3x's a

> day. I

> think that would have to do with our inability to expel toxins.

>

> Glenn

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think the bottom line here is we need to help one another find a way out

of this nightmare. I didn't name the product and sometimes prescription drugs

can be of great value. What I truly don't believe is they ever address the

underlying problem. And in this case so far I haven't met anyone with the

definitive answer. If someone can take the cholestyramine and have relief from

symptoms without major side effects they absolutely should. But also the

ultimate goal should be to find a way to let the body heal itself. And probably

cholestyramine will never accomplish that. This has been done numerous times

with

the help of natural supplements and you're right, many even " natural

supplements " can cause major problems. I doubt that is something any

pharmaceutical

drug will ever do. But if can't find a natural non toxic solution to this

I'll be looking for a place to get the cholestyramine to start.

With all the studies done I still have a few questions that haven't been

answered. 1) Is there something out there that can break down these

toxins/fragments in a timely fashion? 2) What about something that could be

ingested to

make the mycotoxins " less toxic " so they can then be easily removed or broken

down by the body? 3) What is actually going on with the few of us that have

become hypersensitive? For instance is this really a genetic defect or just a

series of things that led up to this that somehow can be changed/corrected?

I had to deal with MS for the past 5 years and then a severe Xanax

withdrawal syndrome. Before this last episode with this mold crap I came from

almost

being in a wheelchair to 75% normal. I was getting better ever few days until

the mold incident. I did this with years of research and trial and error. And

hell yes, I made some huge mistakes with supplements. But I made a decision

to only use toxic drugs as a last resort. Allopathic Medicine will tell you

that this type of thing is a fluke and almost impossible. After all MS is

" incurable disease " say the doctors and mainstream studies. Well I've seen &

read

many times others that were actually in wheelchairs for years now running

around leading normal lives. I had a mother that died with MS and spent the last

several years of her life bedridden.

If anyone is interested the things that helped me were glyconutrients, a

superior multi vitamin/mineral from Purity Products, pro biotic, and a superior

form of lipoic acid. I've taken many others that were somewhat helpful but

these were the main ones. I'm not selling anything here and just want to find

the answer to my problem and would appreciate any advise. The answers are out

there but we just have to help each other find them.

Glenn

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Guest guest]

On 6/19/07, i2ubin31@... <i2ubin31@...> wrote:

>

> I think the bottom line here is we need to help one another find a way

> out

> of this nightmare. I didn't name the product and sometimes prescription

> drugs

> can be of great value. What I truly don't believe is they ever address the

>

> underlying problem. And in this case so far I haven't met anyone with the

> definitive answer. If someone can take the cholestyramine and have relief

> from

> symptoms without major side effects they absolutely should. But also the

> ultimate goal should be to find a way to let the body heal itself. And

> probably

> cholestyramine will never accomplish that.

>

The way I see it, the most important thing is to get out of situations that

put you into contact with

mold toxins, because they, even at low levels, raise the level of

inflammation such that

healing can't happen. The same may apply to a lot of other seemingly minor -

to many people,

irritants and toxins, things like VOCS from chemicals in the built

environment, endotoxins

from bacteria, etc. They may cross-irritate with mold toxins to hold up

healing.

Also, recent research that I have seen indicates that certain kinds of

damage caused by toxins like

ochratoxin A may never heal. At least not the way we would like them to.

At least that is what I gather from what I have read. The brain tries to

compensate and

given time, some, maybe even most - given a less stressful environment-

of the emotional symptoms resolve, but the progenitor cells that are

required for hippocampal neurogenesis - brain repair, are used up.

So damage to the brain in the hippocampus may leave people with permanent

issues with

working memory and executive function. This isn't what Dr. Shoemaker says,

its what some

doctors in the field of Parkinson's disease research who have been doing

lots of work with

ochratoxin A seem to be saying. The issue to follow is that of chemotherapy

patients and chemo

brain. Research done there should also apply somewhat to long term mold

illness victims.

Advances in the use of stem cells to treat neurodegenerative disease should

also apply to us.

Get the picture?

This has been done numerous times with

> the help of natural supplements and you're right, many even " natural

> supplements " can cause major problems. I doubt that is something any

> pharmaceutical

> drug will ever do. But if can't find a natural non toxic solution to this

> I'll be looking for a place to get the cholestyramine to start.

>

So, you want to continue with those toxins until you have seen what damage

they do a little bit more

since clearly you are in nowhere near as bad a shape as many of us have

been, judging

by your writing, you can probably afford to experiment, but your experiment

wont be as

meanigful because you haven't been dealing with the major situation that

some others have?

> With all the studies done I still have a few questions that haven't been

> answered. 1) Is there something out there that can break down these

> toxins/fragments in a timely fashion?

>

You mean a magic bullet? Not that I know of. And there are also so many

many many different fungi and toxins and other

chemicals produced by each of them that any attempt at generalization is

overshadowed by the sheer complexity

of the problem and its evolution over time.

Don't forget that literally millions and millions of years of evolution of

eukarotic life forms evolving beside fungi have given our

bodies, all of them, means of dealing with fungal toxins in various ways-BUT

ALSO however, millions of years of evolution for fungi has made them

EXCEEDINGLY good at ELIMINATING competition - which often means killing it

and indeed, in EATING it at the end.. That includes us.

(isn't it the Bible that says, from dust you came, and to dust you shall

return?)

So perhaps the reality is more the opposite..the fungi will eventually break

all of us down in a timely fashion.. (unless we choose cremation instead

of burial)

2) What about something that could be ingested to

> make the mycotoxins " less toxic " so they can then be easily removed or

> broken

> down by the body?

>

This ground has been covered exhaustively and the problem is that the real,

problematic mycotoxins are extremely toxic substances to all living things

even at tiny concentrations. Yes, general protective substances sometimes

help in one way or another but it is only incremental, never total.. As

someone

who spent a very long time living in a very moldy situation, I can tell you

that in many respects, I didn't really begin to really heal until several

months after I got out.. I was freaking out at the beginning because my

neuro issues continued to get WORSE for quite some time. I've found out that

this is typical but at the time it was terrifying.

Some supplements helped a bit here and there. Some more than a bit, but

still NOWHERE NEAR AS MUCH AS THEY WOULD HAVE NEEDED TO. It was like

something out of a bad movie and the medical profession at that point was

not very helpful at all, even though I think I was very lucky in at least

having a GP who didn't write me off as being an absolute not, although I

must have seemed like one.. (however, time has proven all the bizarre

observations I was making at the time to have solid basis in fact..given the

situation..)

The big useful fact that stood out: Cholestyramine helped a lot. Even while

I was still in the mold. The difference it made was much more noticable than

any supplement.

Of all the supplements I took, I'd have to say NAC was the most useful.. Its

the one I still take with the most consistancy.

3) What is actually going on with the few of us that have

> become hypersensitive? For instance is this really a genetic defect or

> just a

> series of things that led up to this that somehow can be

> changed/corrected?

>

Its not the few, its the many.. Its the curse of all of our lives to be

hypersensitive - or hypersensitIZED -

to mold and I don't think it goes away. Its caused by over-exposure, and its

your immune system that does it. It would be

a genetic defect if your immune system didn't do it because that would leave

you vulnerable to every kind of poison.

Some people, like , who doesn't post here anymore, claim that with

avoidance the hypersensitization goes away.

For me it hasn't

and its a violent reminder that I am stil sick even when I have been feeling

better for a while. I also still have major fatigue issues.

That is why I am going to go see Dr. Shoemaker.. he clearly is the expert on

dealing with this. But its a huge amount

of money for us if insurance won't pay. I am hoping I can get them to pay

for at least part of it. We are living on one income

and until I get better there is no chance of my doing what I need to do to

get my career back on track.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

1) Is there something out there that can break down these

> > toxins/fragments in a timely fashion?

> >

>

>

> You mean a magic bullet? Not that I know of. And there are also so many

> many many different fungi and toxins and other

> chemicals produced by each of them that any attempt at generalization is

> overshadowed by the sheer complexity

> of the problem and its evolution over time.

>

> Don't forget that literally millions and millions of years of

evolution of

> eukarotic life forms evolving beside fungi have given our

> bodies, all of them, means of dealing with fungal toxins in various

ways-BUT

> ALSO however, millions of years of evolution for fungi has made them

> EXCEEDINGLY good at ELIMINATING competition - which often means

killing it

> and indeed, in EATING it at the end.. That includes us.

>

> (isn't it the Bible that says, from dust you came, and to dust you shall

> return?)

>

> So perhaps the reality is more the opposite..the fungi will

eventually break

> all of us down in a timely fashion.. (unless we choose cremation

instead

> of burial)

Hey, hey! Calm down LS. Your tone is too harsh.

The questions that Glenn asked are good and we should never think they

are somehow newbie-type or stupid.

It's true that indoor molds produce different mycotoxins, but it's

also true that only one group - trichothecenes - is what is causing us

most of our suffering. All other mycotoxin groups can be deactivated

much more easily. If someone somewhere sometime discovers an agent

that can break down the epoxy ring that gives all trichothecenes their

toxicity, that would be a major breakthrough for all of us. A kind of

our magic bullet. And looking from the strictly chemical point of

view, there is no reason to believe that such an agent can't be made.

Clearly, that agent wouldn't be of much help for people who are still

living in an environment with living mold and unfixed moisture

problems. It wouldn't heal those who sustained some kind of permanent

damage caused by mold toxins.

But, wouldn't you prefer to have some kind of magic liquid which you

can spray over your contaminated books or clothes and after 10 minutes

the toxins are converted to some non-toxic compound that breaks down

even further into oxygen, nitrogen and hydrogen? Also consider those

people who have left the primary source of contamination (e.g. a moldy

house), but find that their lives have become almost unbearable due to

the continuing " minor " cross-contaminations that come from other

people's clothes, automobiles, furniture etc. Wouldn't it be great if

those people had our hypothetic magic potion and just sprayed

themselves every time they were hit (instead of going through the hell

of cross contamination that can last for months)?

> 3) What is actually going on with the few of us that have

> > become hypersensitive? For instance is this really a genetic defect or

> > just a

> > series of things that led up to this that somehow can be

> > changed/corrected?

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> Its not the few, its the many.. Its the curse of all of our lives to be

> hypersensitive - or hypersensitIZED -

> to mold and I don't think it goes away. Its caused by over-exposure,

and its

> your immune system that does it.

You are correct here... but, everyone's hypresensitivity manifests in

diffetent ways, and is not at the same level. Some react instantly to

minute doses, for others it takes a few hours to realize they've been

exposed again. Everyone's " mold sense " is different. So in that

respect, even the most sensitive people will not have the same

reaction to the same amount of a toxin.

And if I am reading Mold Warriors and other scientific studies about

sick buildings / mycotoxicoses by inhalation well, some people

actually do recover as soon as they leave the building which contained

the offending mycotoxins. They don't have to perform elaborate

decontamination of ALL their possessions. They don't have to throw

away everything. They just leave the problematic building and do not

have to deal with cross-contamination issue at all.

If we, who are supersensitive and prone to cross contamination, could

find a way to at least boost our tolerance to the toxins to the level

that these " easy-recovered " persons have, wouldn't that be great as well?

> Some people, like , who doesn't post here anymore, claim that with

> avoidance the hypersensitization goes away.

> For me it hasn't

> and its a violent reminder that I am stil sick even when I have been

feeling

> better for a while. I also still have major fatigue issues.

To the best of my knowledge, he never claimed such a thing. He said

that if one is, say, exposed to a lot of toxins his immune system has

hit the wall and can't even distinguish between what is contaminated

and what is not. In other words, that person's " mold sense " is so

jammed it has become useless for identification of the source of

mycotoxin clouds or mold plumes.

So he advised such people to " get clear " by practicing extreme

avoidance. Once the body has eliminated the toxins, one can go back to

the problematic house / object / whatever and determine exactly where

the contamination is coming from. In some cases, if I remember well,

the contamination he had problems with wasn't in his house at all, but

was coming as a plume from the neighbour's house or even the ground.

I also don't think our hypersensitivity ever goes away. But someone

might find a way to reverse that as well. Who knows.

You are also right in that we have to bear in mind the fact all life

on Earth does NOT revolve around humans. We are just one of the

species. We also have defense mechanisms and we also kill other

species, sometimes for food, sometimes for fun. When we kill mold, we

are most definitely " evil " , from the mold's point of view.

I personally think that the toxic mold has become such a major problem

since 1990 mostly due to global warming and to a lesser extent due to

bad building protocols and increased use of AC units. The planet is

getting hotter and the molds feel threatened, and when that happens

they release mycotoxins. They're doing pretty well for now...and I

wouldn't be surprised if all life on Earth was reduced only to some

new kind of primordial toxic soup composed entirely of toxic molds and

bacteria - unless humans do something about global warming. The

present state of neglect is going to backfire with a vengeance, and

even those who are profiting now from this situation will be on their

knees. Greedy moneyloving brainless bastards.

[Guest guest]

Hi Branislav,

You are right. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have gotten so self-rightgeous.

Lord knows we all make mistakes, me being

no exception.

Yes, of course, I do wish we had some kind of magic bullets.

Two, one for cleaning up mold in the environment and one for fighting

mold illness's effects in people.

I wish somebody had put together some kind of guide to this that

people could use in practical situations, but I think

that would be very hard because of the complexity of the problem. The

word 'mycotoxin' is generally understood here to mean

a sort of a class of chemicals that seem to be defined as being

typically soluable in alcohol, (often its suggested insoluable in

water -not always true!) denaturable (or I guess I mean

deactivatable) by liberation from any cellular structures enclosing

them then 15 minutes in strong bleach solution..

(and maybe ammonia but that is not at all clear) Low molecular

weight? (bindable by cholestyramine?) Either solid or a film/oil at

room temperature (not vapor or liquid) and there are probably

others..

BUT, I know that there are exceptions to most of these, and also that

the class of toxic substances that fungi produce is EXCEPTIONALLY

LARGE AND VARIED.. As Dr. Straus said when I was talking to him - we

would make a huge mistake in underestimating their variety and

toxicity because as he put it " we are discovering new ones all the

time " . The other mycotoxin expert that I spoke to around the same

time told me the same thing.. that they are constantly discovering

whole new classes of mycotoxins and their chemical properties vary

tremendously.. some are very powerful..

So there you have it.. a serious problem for those who would simplify

and trivialize it..

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > It's true that indoor molds produce different mycotoxins, but

it's

> also true that only one group - trichothecenes - is what is

causing us

> most of our suffering.

>

I just don't think this is a responsible statement even though

clearly, they are a big part of many peoples, including my own,

health issues. How much, I don't know. The place I lived in had a

serious problem that probably was much more extensive

than I could afford to test for. We tested enough to know that we

were in serious danger if we stayed there.

What you say about a chemical to deactivate trichothecenes? I'm not

by any stretch of the imagination a chemist. But logic tells me that

the deactivation of trichothecenes without destroying many other

things too (like strong bleach does) is not so simple, or somebody

would have found that chemical by now.

[Guest guest]

well, I'll put in my sence worth and I haven't read anyones books,

just based on my exposure and my research so take it for what it's

worth. trichothecenes are not the only myco's causeing us great

problems. aflatoxins and orchratoxins can do their damage. so can

voc's bacteria and toxins.

immedity reactions could be exposure to straight myco's and for those

with MCS it doesn't have to be just myco's. you got nose and

olfactory damage and some chemicals,exc. dont even have a smell.

while delayed could be exposure to molds with myco's inside or

attached. with the nitric oxide this causes and the reaction of

perioxide our bodys produse causeing oxidative stress just where a

mold spore can go in your system, who knows.

I wont even go there about eric's theories, I agree woth the need to

practice avoidance as best you can. I just posted evidence of how the

climb a mountain theory could actually hurt some of us worse. if you

has asthma/lung damage is one consideration, I been on some pretty

high mountains in Idaho myself when I was healthy and it was hard to

breath.

the study on this showed healthy people up on a mountain had higher

oxidative stress and theres plenty of info. out there that shows this

is involved with the organ damage we suffer. that tells me being up

on a mountain is about the last place I need to be. how do you even

know just how sick he was to start with?

now sence I'm sure this post well make it to him, I'll just say " HI

ERIC " hope your doing well.

>

> 1) Is there something out there that can break down these

> > > toxins/fragments in a timely fashion?

> > >

> >

> >

> > You mean a magic bullet? Not that I know of. And there are also

so many

> > many many different fungi and toxins and other

> > chemicals produced by each of them that any attempt at

generalization is

> > overshadowed by the sheer complexity

> > of the problem and its evolution over time.

> >

> > Don't forget that literally millions and millions of years of

> evolution of

> > eukarotic life forms evolving beside fungi have given our

> > bodies, all of them, means of dealing with fungal toxins in

various

> ways-BUT

> > ALSO however, millions of years of evolution for fungi has made

them

[Guest guest]

another difference in immedite or delayed responce can be the

difference in breathing a myco up you nose strainght to the brain

(immedite) and the time it takes for myco's to make it into your

blood stream from your lungs or stomach(delayed).

>

> 1) Is there something out there that can break down these

> > > toxins/fragments in a timely fashion?

> > >

> >

> >

> > You mean a magic bullet? Not that I know of. And there are also

so many

> > many many different fungi and toxins and other

> > chemicals produced by each of them that any attempt at

generalization is

> > overshadowed by the sheer complexity

> > of the problem and its evolution over time.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/19/2007 6:26:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

arealis@... writes:

I also don't think our hypersensitivity ever goes away. But someone

might find a way to reverse that as well. Who knows.

I found several places that do desensitization, anyone ever hear or try

this? There is one place in my area and I've included a link.

_http://osteomed2.com/Allergy.html_ (http://osteomed2.com/Allergy.html)

I went here and completed 4 sessions but did not get into any session for

mold toxins. However I did bring tape and water samples from my house and that

seemed to do nothing.

This clinic is well recognized throughout the USA and somewhat worldwide. I

want to go back and finish but it's very expensive. Any input on this?

Glenn

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/19/2007 2:31:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

quackadillian@... writes:

The big useful fact that stood out: Cholestyramine helped a lot. Even while

I was still in the mold. The difference it made was much more noticable than

any supplement.

Of all the supplements I took, I'd have to say NAC was the most useful.. Its

the one I still take with the most consistancy.

Do you still take the Cholestyramine on a regular basis or just as needed?

Was there any side effects?

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.