Re: the other (one) is never my problem

[Guest guest]

Hi!

My experience is this:

With the people I feel harmony with I don´t have any stressful

stories. No stories of that I want or need anything from them, no

stories that the should or shouldn´t do certain things.

And with the people I have dissonances with I have all the stories

about how the should behave and how they shouldn´t, and what I need

and want from them.

Who would I be without my stories? Who would I be together with THEM

without my stories? When I do the work I always get the insight that

the problems I have with other people lies in my thinking. I maybe

have the thought that they should love me or listen to me. Maybe I

want them to understand me or appologize to me. These are the

thoughts that make me suffer, and without them I don´t have a

problem with the " other " anymore.

Love,

>

> hey alltogher,

>

> can you give feedback please?

>

> " only my thinking is my problem. "

>

> well. if i have a person next to me with which i can live in an

> harmonious way, and there is another with which i am in dissonance,

> doesn't if have a connection with the " other " ?

>

> i am not talking of compulisve or faked " harmony " .

>

> both are an offer, or maybe even a challenge, and yet it is

different.

> in the outside world not only in my thinking.

>

> hm. i wonder about this a little bit since i have had so many

> dissonances with people since a while.

>

> lr

>

[Guest guest]

rose.. I tend to believe its other people also..

however.. i have a job in which i change clients every once and

awhile.. and i have the same problem with all of them..

I dont think they like me.

its a projection of my own self hate. Then i go into blaming myself.

im still working on it.

Giovanni helped me today.. I did the work on Depression is all my

fault..

AS Giovanni pointed out.. DEpression does not even exist..

ITs not even a feeling but behind the feelings. is a thought.. so he

wants me to list all my thoughts i think are negative about my

client.. and do the work on that..

next..

IF depression doesnt exist.. a lot of drug companies will be out of

work..

Anyway i feel better after talking to Giovanni.

love,roslyn

- In Loving-what-is , " gitoros " wrote:

>

> hey alltogher,

>

> can you give feedback please?

>

> " only my thinking is my problem. "

>

> well. if i have a person next to me with which i can live in an

> harmonious way, and there is another with which i am in dissonance,

> doesn't if have a connection with the " other " ?

>

> i am not talking of compulisve or faked " harmony " .

>

> both are an offer, or maybe even a challenge, and yet it is different.

> in the outside world not only in my thinking.

>

> hm. i wonder about this a little bit since i have had so many

> dissonances with people since a while.

>

> lr

>

[Guest guest]

good point i have stories with my clients.

i assume they prefer others.

among other things.

thanks maria.glad your back.

love , roslyn

-- In Loving-what-is , " " wrote:

>

>

>

> Hi!

>

> My experience is this:

>

> With the people I feel harmony with I don´t have any stressful

> stories. No stories of that I want or need anything from them, no

> stories that the should or shouldn´t do certain things.

>

> And with the people I have dissonances with I have all the stories

> about how the should behave and how they shouldn´t, and what I need

> and want from them.

>

> Who would I be without my stories? Who would I be together with THEM

> without my stories? When I do the work I always get the insight that

> the problems I have with other people lies in my thinking. I maybe

> have the thought that they should love me or listen to me. Maybe I

> want them to understand me or appologize to me. These are the

> thoughts that make me suffer, and without them I don´t have a

> problem with the " other " anymore.

>

> Love,

>

> >

> > hey alltogher,

> >

> > can you give feedback please?

> >

> > " only my thinking is my problem. "

> >

> > well. if i have a person next to me with which i can live in an

> > harmonious way, and there is another with which i am in dissonance,

> > doesn't if have a connection with the " other " ?

> >

> > i am not talking of compulisve or faked " harmony " .

> >

> > both are an offer, or maybe even a challenge, and yet it is

> different.

> > in the outside world not only in my thinking.

> >

> > hm. i wonder about this a little bit since i have had so many

> > dissonances with people since a while.

> >

> > lr

> >

>

[Guest guest]

-

i dont get it.. but it sounds great.. thanks alex,

you mean what we see in other people is our own reflection .

our own interpretation.. and everyones interpretation is different.

i think.? roslyn

-- In Loving-what-is , wrote:

>

> Hello!

>

> Yes, and...

>

> it goes the way " no two people have ever met " .

>

> When you look into a mirror, and you see yourself, how does it affect

> your perceiption? Don't you start feeling different? All that

> happens, is that your view changes. You see something you didn't see

> just an instant before. And don't your feelings, your mood change

> different to the other times? How would you feel, if you were not

> looking at your mirror image, but through a window? Who are you, what

> are you, depending of the thought " that's me " ?

> And all that affects you are your thoughts about what you see: can

> you remember or just imagine looking into a mirror, and thinking it's

> a window? Experience how you change when your awareness shifts from

> window to mirror to window to... maybe: it's a doll, to... nothing's

> there.

>

> That's how you don't meet someone.

>

> And it's also how someone else can not be your problem.

>

> Love,

>

>

> Am 23.12.2006 um 09:02 schrieb :

>

> >

> >

> > Hi!

> >

> > My experience is this:

> >

> > With the people I feel harmony with I don´t have any stressful

> > stories. No stories of that I want or need anything from them, no

> > stories that the should or shouldn´t do certain things.

> >

> > And with the people I have dissonances with I have all the stories

> > about how the should behave and how they shouldn´t, and what I need

> > and want from them.

> >

> > Who would I be without my stories? Who would I be together with THEM

> > without my stories? When I do the work I always get the insight that

> > the problems I have with other people lies in my thinking. I maybe

> > have the thought that they should love me or listen to me. Maybe I

> > want them to understand me or appologize to me. These are the

> > thoughts that make me suffer, and without them I don´t have a

> > problem with the " other " anymore.

> >

> > Love,

> >

> >>

> >> hey alltogher,

> >>

> >> can you give feedback please?

> >>

> >> " only my thinking is my problem. "

> >>

> >> well. if i have a person next to me with which i can live in an

> >> harmonious way, and there is another with which i am in dissonance,

> >> doesn't if have a connection with the " other " ?

> >>

> >> i am not talking of compulisve or faked " harmony " .

> >>

> >> both are an offer, or maybe even a challenge, and yet it is

> >> different.

> >> in the outside world not only in my thinking.

> >>

> >> hm. i wonder about this a little bit since i have had so many

> >> dissonances with people since a while.

> >>

> >> lr

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ___________________________________________________________

> Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo!

Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Rose,

>

> Hi ,

>

> thanks for responding. I'm a little late with my response, hope it

> doesn't matter. I write into your post.

>

> > My experience is this:

> >

> > With the people I feel harmony with I don´t have any stressful

> > stories. No stories of that I want or need anything from them,

no

> > stories that the should or shouldn´t do certain things.

> >

> > And with the people I have dissonances with I have all the

stories

> > about how the should behave and how they shouldn´t, and what I

need

> > and want from them.

>

> *** so far my experience is similar.

> >

> > Who would I be without my stories?

>

> *** good question. and nevertheless, as i am not done with this, i

> dive a bit into that. when i was a little kid, my dad, wasn't the

kind

> to feel save and harmonious with. i was used to it, and didn't

know it

> any different.

**Without any references, how could you know that you didn´t feel

safe with him? Before you learned that you could feel unsafe with

someone, what did you feel with your daddy then?

(that recognition came later) i cannot remember a

> thought of: he should be different. in the backview i would say, i

had

> a very sensitve senosory system, to adapt to his moods and

keep/kept

> myself as save as possible within this framework.

>

> i cannot remember a thought of he should be different.

> i dont know if it was just so, or if it was a reaction to living

with

> him, but i had " so called " psychosomatic symptoms, such as nail

biting

> and bedwetting.

**And can you absolutely know it had to do with your father? And

when you think it has how do you feel about your father then?

> a psychologist would say there is a kausual connection between

this,

**Well, let´s here what you have to say instesd.

> and the work perhaps would say can you absolutely be sure. i say, i

> dont know.

**A good place to be in.

could be something from another life as well. and so again

> - bottom line is: i don't know.

> fact is: i cannot remember a thought of " he should be different "

and

> yet i remember being afraid of him.

> so in a way he was my problem. for if he had been a nice and

adjuvant

> person, i might have developed differently.

** OK, let´s look at your stories here. If he had been nice... So

your father should have been nice? From what I hear from you he was

a scary person to YOU. How do you react when you think that your

father should have been nice but wasn´t?

And if he had been different you should have developed

differerently. Listen to it, you should have developed differently.

Is that true?

> this is NOT, that i am blaming him. things were, the way they

were.

> it's about the question if another is my problem or not.

>

>

>

>

> > Who would I be together with THEM without my stories?

>

> *** well according to my experience, i'ld be together with them,

> depending on my personal setting. whether i depend on them.

> materially, emotionally, whether i have enough freedom to move

away,

> and i have others where i can find love and security (in germany we

> say " Geborgenheit " ).

> as a child i had no " no " against him, and yet i was taking care of

my

> safety while being with him. but the first opportunity to move away

> from him, i took.

>

> When I do the work I always get the insight that

> > the problems I have with other people lies in my thinking.

>

> *** are you always in a relaxed mood, that you can let the others

do

> whatever they want, even if it might hurt you? i'm not.

** No, I´m not. And I think it´s a kind thing to say no if you might

think something will hurt.

i can

> willingly open up to the opportunity to move back to that

condition,

> but i am NOT always there. i am no shaolin monk (for example)

>

> I maybe

> > have the thought that they should love me or listen to me. Maybe

I

> > want them to understand me or appologize to me. These are the

> > thoughts that make me suffer, and without them I don´t have a

> > problem with the " other " anymore.

>

> *** thank you maria, i hear you and i know from (own) experiences

what

> you mean. and again, i am not always there. so i suffer (more or

less)

> in between.

>

> : (

>

> thanks for responding, love, rose

>

> not revised

>

Love,

[Guest guest]

> What is the subtle boarder line between acceptance/letting go and

> submitting to pain or masochism?

>

> Thank you.

>

> NH

Hi NH,

In my opinion the 'subtle' borderline is believing your thoughts (about

the people you want to change places for) and not investigate

them. 'Acceptance/letting go'(while grinding your teeth) won't work

without investigation.

Have a beautiful day,

.

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

> > *** i understand and i tend to take people literally.

> Please, DO take me literally. And experience what that means for you.

> What comes up, when you think of a literal " mirror " ? A simple answer

> would be: the image of a mirror. And that is in some way the whole

> truth.

+++ i hear what you say, now; and i take from that that in a way you

point to the way a human mind works. blind or deaf or whatever. right?

in the other mail you were writing about looking into the mirror.

(When you look into a mirror, and you see yourself, how does it affect

> your perceiption? Don't you start feeling different?) that's somehow

different.

my thinking appartus is a bit like a lot of mud, so i want to keep

this topic in a size that i can handle and don't spread that point.

> >> Because you KNOW that it only reflects. And when you're

> >> blind, don't you have pictures, as well?

> > *** in your mind. i suppose; i'm not blind.

> You can't be.

+++ why do you turn the meaning around here?

> >> And could that be an interpretation?

> > *** yes it could be. and it also could be correct. some

> > interpretations even match with the others reality, sometimes.

> yes: " others reality " . That's not reality. Don't care about the

> reality of others, until you understand yours. Their reality doesn't

> have ANYTHING to do with yours. And sometimes they seem to match.

+++ ok, i hear what you say. you sometimes sound like an " enlightened "

being, talking from " somewhere else " so what's left for me to say,

other than: ok - i hear you?

>

> >> " the way he shouts means that... " , and so on?

> > *** sometimes yes. if only a little bit possible i simply ask.

> Then you have HIS story.

+++ yes. that's perhaps at least somewhat more " synchronized " .

>

> Who would you be whithout his story?

> In that situation.

+++ good question.

first answer. just new and open in this moment.

next a rejecting reaktion: don't give me that one again. i knew I#ld

come. ...

>

> >> Don't you project into the future?

> > *** that can happen, yes. when i let my mind fool me/myself.

> Well, I think that's what we do, sometimes. It's not our mind that

> fools us. It's us believing what it says.

+++ yes. i can agree to this.

>

> A misunderstanding of the truth.

+++ hm. a misunderstanding of the truth? what do you mean with this?

> > i tend to move towards things that stress or frigthen me.

> How else could you learn to understand them?

+++ i don't know. moving away is the other option.

>

> > and i

> > notice that my mind goes stressed and even blank over that. i go

as slowly as neccessary.

> Yes. You see, you can't even go to fast. When you try, your mind

goes blank!

+++ i don't know. if i go fast, i tend to distract myself. then

instead of slowing down and get to see " things " , i jump away, and just

look away.

> > it sometimes makes me sad,

> why? You're not fast enough?

no. it's not a matter of being fast or slow. it's a side effekt of

clinging to " religions " i tend to think at the moment.

>

> Thing is: you are already where you want to be. There's no rush,

> because you have nowhere to go.

+++ ok. sounds like a spiritual saying. ah! i don't know. if an animal

notices an upcoming earthquake it moves away. i as a human, shall i

stay, if i notice the signals. cause all is the same? i can, and i

don't have to, can you agree?

> >> Now I use others to understand myself!

> > *** sounds cute, and i am like " vernagelt " , at the moment. i just

> > don't understand what you mean at this specific moment.

> Well, sometimes you try to understand people? And you try to step

> into their mind?

>

> Useless.

>

> Use them to understand yourself! Judge them. And do the work.

ok. i see, how i mean it. thanks.

> >>> i had developed something i called in my 30ties, feeling for the

> >>> atmosphere in a room, among people and so on.

> >>> i will ask the next blind person, if they have a sense like that.

> >> They do. Everyone does. And it's a projection.

> > *** i don't know. that's one of the points that make it so difficult

> > for me. i just am not sure.

> Good! You work on it, there's one point less left that make it so

> difficult!

+++ ;-) ok.

>

> What if you did not have to know?

+++ fine. :-)

>

[...]

> There is no difference. Both are movements. You interpret one as

> punishment, the other as tenderness.

>

> That's the projection.

+++ ok. i hear what you say. and i can follow that both are movements.

a painful hit with a stick is a different movement compared to a

stroke of a caring hand on a cheak. at least on the " ego level "

[...]

> No difference.

>

> You heard saying " hope is for children " ?

>

> Hope keeps you from loving what is. And it helps against a greater fear!

+++ do you mean, hope helps against greater fear?

>

> >> For me it's about my peace. No-thing is more valuable than that.

> >> Not even my own life.

+++ that's a very beautiful statement. it echoes in my mind.

> > *** what do you mean with " one part " .

> The peace-part. When everyone is nice to you, you can see that they

> are not your problem. That's one part.

+++ and the other is - when " they " are not nice to me, that's also not

my problem? do you mean that?

>

> >>> still not done with that topic.

> >> Thank you for working on it.

> > *** thanks for supporting me here. that's one of my " core " topics.

> > it is alive again, for several reasons.

> It's alive, because it's alive.

>

> No need for more reasons.

+++ i agree.

>

> Love,

>

Love Rose

[Guest guest]

The problem is that we have to use words to discuss spiritual

concepts and words are symbols of symbols. However I will " have a go "

( " Have a go " is an Austrlian expression!)

1) " Acceptance " means that things " are as they are " . It does not

mean that " things are good " or " things are not good " , just that they

are as they are

2) " Surrendering to God " or " Let Go Let God " means. " God I can't

deal with this pain/situation. Please deal with it for me " . It is

not " giving up " which is a particular energy that invites smallness

and defeat.

3)Submitting to pain/masochism is at the level of the ego and not at

the level of spitit. the concepts of 1) acceptance and

2) " surrendering to God " are spiritual practices.

Submitting to pain/masochism says " I want more pain " . There are may

humans who do in fact follow this thought system. You have probably

met some of them

The point about pain is NEVER TO DENY IT. If you " bottle it up " and

don't discuss it with a friend/counsellor/therapist it goes into all

sorts of maladaptive belief systems and even physical illness.

Processes 1) and 2) allow for the pain to exist. Not denying it. But

expressing the preference that the pain be taken away.

Acceptance says " Yes I have this pain. It is not good. It is not

bad. Now I have a preference to get rid of the pain and will seek

assistance from God/all-that-is/ the Universe to have a

life/situation/circumstance to deal with it " Acceptance is not

passive. It is active in the sense that it accepts this moment as

being " as it is " thus enabling a point of truth for investigation/

true enquiry to begin from.

" True enquiry/self investigation can only commence from this point. "

It is not possible for self enquiry to commence from any point of

denial of things as they are. this is what people often try to do,

and wonder why they still have problems.

In Loving-what-is , " rvheyst " wrote:

>

>

>

> > What is the subtle boarder line between acceptance/letting go and

> > submitting to pain or masochism?

> >

> > Thank you.

> >

> > NH

>

>

> Hi NH,

>

> In my opinion the 'subtle' borderline is believing your thoughts

(about

> the people you want to change places for) and not investigate

> them. 'Acceptance/letting go'(while grinding your teeth) won't

work

> without investigation.

>

> Have a beautiful day,

>

> .

>

[Guest guest]

ok. part two.

> >> Would you feel more comfortable, if you had had another Dad?

> > *** i dont know. i could only fantasize over that.

> That's what this is about: Finding your " he should " . Do you have

ANY advice for him, even any supernatural advice ( " don't die " , for

> instance), that would make you feel better, if he followed it?

***yep. i haven't had contact with him, since some years. before i

perceived him as stuck (festgefahren). in case he is still stuck

today, my advises for him would be:

get off that rill (Rille) of the long-playing record you are riding

since so many years and open your eyes. life is much more than your

limited perception of it.

get a broader view.

become vivid again, instead of being on " autopilot " .

but then, if it is not his path or timing, these advises aren't

doing any good to/for him. plus he did not ask me.

> That's a " he should " .

*** is an advise automatically a he/she should? (independend from

the work)

and i know that this advise question is part of the work.

i may come back to the TA's

>

> >> One that was different from yours? Would you react in a

different way, when you listened to stories about him, when you were

talking about him?

> >> Then I'd do the work.

> > *** i see. the current trigger was a x-mas card from his wife to

me.

> > i wept when i got it. such a " crazy " family. : \

> Was that a good or a bad experience?

*** it was a " x-mas feeling " of relief and healing. i was very

touched by her words.

>

> I mostly cry out of gratefulness, nowadays. And sometimes, I just

cry.

*** that's beautiful. i sometimes weep a little, from being touched.

>

>

> >>> i dont know if it was just so, or if it was a reaction to

living with him, but i had " so called " psychosomatic symptoms, such

as nail biting and bedwetting.

> >> what's not ok?

> > it's not even a question of ok or not. it was what it was. i got

> > beaten for it. that was terrible.

> I hear that that's what's no ok.

*** hm. i don't know.

starting telling parts of the story, does it do any good.

i like a lot, kt's " it's over! "

i had forgotten lot's of these events. they started to pop up again,

after opening this topic, and then getting that card.

i trust life and it's events, and my impulses even if i don't

understand them, for they are not logical.

in the past summer, i had a specific moment, when i suddenly

switched into a melancholic mood, over the " fact " that he has broken

with his whole family, and so he does not get /experience any part

of the richness a familylife can bring. it did not pass by, but

stayed for days. my thoughts around him, kept being alive. one day

i had the impulse to send him some pics. from the garden, his

grandchildren, my darling, one of myself. it had popped into my

mind, that he has had always said to me: get yourself as old as i am

now (when he was in his early fourties) and then you'll see, then

you'll understand. i wrote him just a few lines about my feelings,

of him, not being in the family and then that i am now as old as

he " wanted " me to be to understand, but i don't draw the same

conclusions. i told him, that i just wanted to share that. it was

only a few lines.

now this card from his wife came, telling me that he wants to write

me since weeks, but it's very difficult for him.

> You think your life had been better (in whatever way) if he had

not beaten you.

*** no. i don't think that. i know, it also had made me strong in a

way. i learned a certain cleverness over living close to him. and

nowadays as a grownup, i think that he is rather burdened with his

personal story, so i can understand and again, - it's over.

> As long as you don't find that that's EXACTLY what he should have

> done for you, your work is not done.

+++ ok. i think i understand that. maybe his job is not fully done,

so he shows up again.

>

> And it sounds VERY painful to me what you're going through there,

so I'd go really DEEP with that.

*** alexander, i don't know. i don't know if i take escape

to " philosophy " here, or if i am really more or less through with

that. (maybe i need more time to find out)

suddenly these memories pop up. ok.

it's a little bit like reading old letters. you dive into that

atmosphere for a while, but you do not even read all of them, but

instead you pack them aside, or you even throw them away and

continue to live your life now.

i have a strange period going on.

in the german list i had started a work topic around my college, i

did it there, for i thought that perhaps the german context (and

language) would make it somehow easier.

i'm still not throught with this, but today at work, we were

standing together for a glas of wine. i feel a little " autistic " at

the moment, and not very relaxed with that specific collegue. but

there we were. 5 people in a circle. i peeped at her and just gave

the frightend part of myself permission and support to be still and

just present. that was good and it was not painful. she is just

another human being trying to be happy.

something clicked for me.

it's somehow similar with my dad. there is a part in me afraid that

an encounter with him could be painful - but maybe i only need to

give myself support and permission to be just present, and as i said

the other day, following my hearts guidance. (do you remember the

little incident with my daughter?)

i have a feeling that this is, what it is about for me, at the

moment.

there is so much getting healed again at the moment.

i often was afraid of having this same " temperament " like my dad,

and in fact, when i was very exhausted and my kids provacative, i

freaked out some times. i was very, very sorry for that. for them

and for me. i was ashamed and deeply dissapointed about myself. i

felt guilty. i so much had wanted to not let it happen, to be like

him. i apologized instantly. and i waited till time was ready to

apologize on a more " grown up level " to my kids. my stepson kept

distance for quite some years. i knew i would have to wait till his

timing was there, to come back, if it would come at all. but this x-

mas he was here for the first time in many years, and we had a

wonderful time. :-)

do you remember mary, my friend with the hearttransplant. we had

split as you know. yesterday i heard that she is really sad about

this and busy with trying to find her way with this. i was really

surprised, i had not expected that. i thought she was through with

me, too.

and yet i had dreamed about her the nigth before yesterday, with a

dream telling me about her desire to reconcile. that's amazing.

this healing, reconciling - and the shrink back from imagined hurts,

is, what is the topic (is the other my problem or not) is most

connected to.

> >> would it have been ok if it had been for another reason? If it

had not been that often? Which story do you feel most comfortable

with, now?

> > i don't know.

> Is that true?

*** i don't know. i get blanc.

>

> Close your eyes and dream of a happy childhood. Of a wonderful

> childhood! Is it different from the one you remember having had?

*** well with closing my eyes i can report, that with images of

painful memories my body thightens. with an imagined happy childhood

it starts to relax, to expand.

>

> There's your " should " s.

*** why alexander? just reading these three last words of you, my

mind goes blanc, i start getting a feeling of panic, pain and

desperation.

it moves away as soon as i think differently about these memories of

my childhood.

the strange thing is, because of these symptoms, they have put me

into therapy. t h e r e i was introduced to the idea that my

childhood was unhappy. when i was desperate as a child, i had my

methods to deal with that. there was not that amplifying of an " I " .

THAT came with the therapy. or maybe it was the puberty. i don't

know. in a way that I/or the therapy was a liberation (Befreiung)

and in a way it caused new problems. I just don't know. i don't

know if i start to understand some things which i haven't seen

before, or if i start to reinvent a story. i just dont know.

> >>> a psychologist would say " there is a causual connection between

> >>> this " ,

> >>> and the work perhaps would say " can you absolutely be sure " . i

> >>> say, i dont know. could be something from another life as well

(if there is one at all). and so again

> >>> - bottom line is: i don't know.

> >> Good.

*** yes. and i live relaxed with this i don't know. i find it brings

more relaxation into my mind, than any dubious explanatory

statements.

> >>

> >> And I'd say: who cares?

> > *** i agree.

> >

> >> And listen to what the psychologist has to say. What you have to

> >> say.

> >> And I have no need to share it, or to go to war with it.

Whatever

> >> you say.

> >

> > *** this " change of persons " in your last four sentences

confuses my already confused mind.

> I understand.

>

> >>> fact is: i cannot remember a thought of " he should be

different " and

> >>> yet i remember being afraid of him.

> >>> so in a way he was my problem. for if he had been a nice and

> >>> adjuvant

> >>> person, i might have developed differently.

> >>> this is NOT, that i am blaming him. things were, the way they

> >>> were.

> >>> it's about the question if another is my problem or not.

> >> It's about seeing that you are on your own. It's YOUR MIND you

can

> >> work with. Nothing else. And in that lies the solution to ALL of

> >> your problems. No one can be my problem. That's MY priviledge.

> > *** the last sentence sounds even funny. but again, here is the

> > point of my interest. i know there's a tresure to find. i knew it

> > all along.

> So, investigate. It doesn't even have to be with your father. It

may come easier to you to investigate something else: your teacher,

your brother, society, politics...

>

> Whatever is on your mind.

+++ ok. give me some time here. i need to find my oneliners.

> >>>> Who would I be together with THEM without my stories?

> > when i was a

> > little child, i had no one to run to.

> Is that true? From your perspective nowadays. What about the

> neighbour? The police? A teacher? Any guy on the street?

> It's not a " you could have run to anyone and found protection

there " , but the belief that you had no one actually kept you from

running away as long as you believed it. And is it absolutely true?

*** this question was something that crossed my mind several times

today. why didn't i run away. i don't know. i think - nowadays -

because i believed deeply (those days), that THAT is (was) the way

it is (was) EVERYWHERE (parents are all like mine). a memory came

back to me, today, that my mum always told me not to run away

because i must be afraid of: evil man, black men, robbers,

vagabunds, foreigners etc.. ( " Im Wald da wohnen die Räuber "

und " fürchte dich vorm bösen Mann " , diese ganze nei.) my grown

up mind today says: that might be rooted in her own lifestory.

>

> When you see that you COULD have run away, you take back the power

over your life! The one you have so generously given to someone who

> doesn't know what to do with it.

>

> No wonder you feel confused.

+++ i suppose, as a child i didn't know it any better, than

believing and obeying them. they allowed and had very little contact

to the outside world or other familymembers. it was the time before

hotlines for kids or so. we lived on the country side.

taking back my power came, when i decided to find a way to move out,

instead of killing myself. and by and by, when i met people who

supported me, affectionally.

you know it may sound strange, but i am grateful for both. my

somehow strange parents and these nurturing helpful people.

> >> How do you depend emotionally from someone. Isn't that

believing a

> >> thought like " I can not exist without him? "

> > *** i have no thoughts like this, not even with my darling, or my

> > kids. but i clearly enjoy their company. i love to be with my own

> > company and i enjoy theirs.

> So how do you depend emotionally from them?

+++ when i was a child, i think, i felt dependend on my parents, for

the poverty of social life during that time. today it is different.

> >> or " Without him it would be even worse " ? How do you depend

> >> materially from someone.

> > *** i don't. again i would rather prefer to die than to live in

any unhappy relationship.

> Yes. And you were mateially dependent from someone at a point in

your life. That's what you told me. How were you depend materially

from someone? How in your story, and how in reality?

+++ well, i suppose in the story, there was this wish to survive,

and survive meant to stay.

in reality, it could have been manyfold. kids survive the most

difficult circumstances, and sometimes they don't survive. so within

my framework i think - today - i have chosen to stay and endure, and

to wait till i was grown enough to run away. with fourteen i lost

the belief and trust into my endurance and strength to stand it till

the time when i was a grown up. i remember that. with 15 i had ideas

how to manage to move out and that's what i did.

> >> Isn't it that you'd rather have something to eat than to leave?

And can you know you wouldn't have EVERYTHING you need if you left

him?

> > *** i always found what i needed. and now over being paralysed

and

> > in need of expensive medicine, if i could not afford it, then i

> > again would chose to die, rather than bring myself in painful

> > settings. i will die anyway, that's the reason why i live my

life in

> > the now in a way, so that it can end any moment.

> Good!

yes. it works for me. the simple fact that i cannot pee like a

pedestrian makes my life compartively complicated. so without

material ...

>

> >> So what does your freedom depend on, other than your thoughts?

> > *** that's a good question. again because it touches this core

topic

> > deeply. i don't know if i could stand to live in an unfree

setting.

> > i love freedom. but, i have managed it once, i might make it

again.

> > who knows. (may sound strange but is meant simple)

> So, what would BE an unfree setting?

>

> Investigate it!

+++ ok. i have to dwell on that somewhat.

>

> Who would you be, if an unfree setting was never possible?

+++ that's a very good question. give me time with this.

>

> >> A clear mind can move away or stay. A clear mind moves to

comfort.

> > *** with or without moving it's physical vehicle?

> Without having stories about why not to move it's physical vehicle!

+++ oh oh. i didn' understand that in the first three attempts. my

mind goes blanc.

let me dwell on that myself.

> >> And whenever you suffer, it's a sign that your mind is off.

> > *** i have heard that sentence several times now. always

connected

> > with the work. so i conclude it belongs to the work.

> No, it belongs to reality.

>

> Reality doesn't impose suffering on you. Nothing does. It's an

illusion.

+++ ok. i hear that. let me dwell on that a little bit myself, ok?

and then maybe i will come back one day, and ask you: what makes

you - alexander - make that statement?

>

> > i am living with it, and see if it is true for me (also). no

final statement possible yet. ; -)

> No statement is final. Get clear what your current statement is.

*smile* and yes. ok.

thank you, love rose

not revised.

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

thanks for responding.

> **Without any references, how could you know that you didn´t feel

> safe with him?

he ambushed me, hit me surprisingly and then punished me. with these

experiences i learned to be careful to prevent repetition. that was

sometimes successful, sometimes not.

Before you learned that you could feel unsafe with

> someone, what did you feel with your daddy then?

i don't know. i had a feeling of beeing too much for him, of being

unwanted.

later as a grown up i asked my mother and she confirmed. he did not

want to have a fourth child.

i think he must have been rather desperate.

[...]

" so called " psychosomatic symptoms, such as nail

> biting

> > and bedwetting.

>

> **And can you absolutely know it had to do with your father?

no i cannot. that what i wrote in the mail with alexander already.

And

> when you think it has how do you feel about your father then?

nowadays - compassion for both of us. it was a difficult and

partwise desperate setting.

> > a psychologist would say there is a kausual connection between

> this,

>

> **Well, let´s here what you have to say instesd.

i don't know.

>

> > and the work perhaps would say can you absolutely be sure. i

say, i

> > dont know.

>

> **A good place to be in.

yes. i agree.

[...]

> yet i remember being afraid of him.

> > so in a way he was my problem. for if he had been a nice and

> adjuvant

> > person, i might have developed differently.

>

> ** OK, let´s look at your stories here. If he had been nice... So

> your father should have been nice? From what I hear from you he

was

> a scary person to YOU. How do you react when you think that your

> father should have been nice but wasn´t?

when i think that thought you suggested: i feel confused and sad, i

don't know why it is the way it is, and i try to find an answer.

(that's the point where i start with psychology and philosophy.)

> And if he had been different you should have developed

> differerently. Listen to it, you should have developed

differently.

> Is that true?

no it's not true. i feel there was no mistake. it was how it was

meant to be. herein lays a lot of freedom for me.

> Love,

thanks , Love, Rose

>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

thank you for caring.

The bubbling up of these memories has surprised me. i go through a

process with it.

as an adult i think, my dad was traumatised by several events in his

life, and when i came along, already in a rather desperate situation.

he is not a bad man. i think he has a tender heart and simultaneously

strong and strict rules. he tried to appear as a strong man which is

in control of everything. he tried to educate his kids. i think he did

his job as good as he could.

> > +++ i hear what you say, now; and i take from that that in a way you

> > point to the way a human mind works. blind or deaf or whatever. right?

> Yes.

*** ok. then i think i got it/you.

> > in the other mail you were writing about looking into the mirror.

> > (When you look into a mirror, and you see yourself, how does it

affect your perceiption? Don't you start feeling different?) that's

somehow different.

> No.

>

> Look, the mirror exists in your mind. And the mirror exists for

real. As long as you attach to your stories about the mirror, you

won't be able to see the real one, you will always just see the one in

your mind.

>

> When you experience the real thing, all you perceive is richness,

> vastness, it's giving.

>

> But that you only can, when you're not busy projecting.

+++ ok. let's say i look into the mirror, i can the the mirror, it's

frame, the background around me and i see my face. i see blond hair,

etc. when i say this blond hair is ... ... or ... ..., and i start to

judge, then i start with a story.

> > my thinking appartus is a bit like a lot of mud, so i want to keep

> > this topic in a size that i can handle and don't spread that point.

> Good.

ha ha! what? not the spread the point or the muddy thinking apparatus? ;-)

> >>>> Because you KNOW that it only reflects. And when you're

> >>>> blind, don't you have pictures, as well?

> >>> *** in your mind. i suppose; i'm not blind.

> >> You can't be.

> > +++ why do you turn the meaning around here?

> You always SEE. Some people don't see with their EYES. But they see,

> anyway. Images appear in the mind.

>

> The same thing.

*** ok. what do you mean here. do you think that blind people can

describe a setting, like a person with eye vision would describe it.

like there is a stuhl. and the window is left of that stuhl ...

>

> Concentrate on those, and work with them.

>

> But don't worry, what I'm saying here has no real value.

+++ ok.

>

> >>>> And could that be an interpretation?

> >>> *** yes it could be. and it also could be correct. some

> >>> interpretations even match with the others reality, sometimes.

> >> yes: " others reality " . That's not reality. Don't care about the

> >> reality of others, until you understand yours. Their reality doesn't

> >> have ANYTHING to do with yours. And sometimes they seem to match.

> > +++ ok, i hear what you say. you sometimes sound like an " enlightened "

> > being, talking from " somewhere else " so what's left for me to say,

> > other than: ok - i hear you?

> Thank you.

ok.

>

> If you have a question: ask!

i will. thanks for offering that to me.

>

> You are taking other people as a reference to validate your world.

*** what do you mean with this?

> That won't get you anywhere. It only keeps you from investigating yours.

+++ i'll wait till the previous requested answer comes.

>

> >>>> " the way he shouts means that... " , and so on?

> >>> *** sometimes yes. if only a little bit possible i simply ask.

> >> Then you have HIS story.

> > +++ yes. that's perhaps at least somewhat more " synchronized " .

> Again. No reference => interrogation.

+++ ?

> >> Who would you be whithout his story?

> >> In that situation.

> > +++ good question.

> > first answer. just new and open in this moment.

> Good.

ok.

> > next a rejecting reaktion: don't give me that one again. i knew I#ld

> > come. ...

> Don't take it!

ok.

>

> > +++ hm. a misunderstanding of the truth? what do you mean with this?

> We believe the mind, instead of the truth. We believe there are

> stories about this mirror. What he does, that he exists. Instead of

> seeing the real thing.

+++ do you come here from the idea/concept/experience that all in this

world is a reflection of mind. many human minds or one big mastermind.

the devine intelligence?

>

> >>> i tend to move towards things that stress or frigthen me.

> >> How else could you learn to understand them?

> > +++ i don't know. moving away is the other option.

> Sometimes you do. Whent it's too much.

+++ yes.

>

> says that thoughts are like children: they want to be met with

> understanding, and they come back until you do.

+++ ok.

>

> >>> and i

> >>> notice that my mind goes stressed and even blank over that. i go

> >>> as slowly as neccessary.

> >> Yes. You see, you can't even go to fast. When you try, your mind

> >> goes blank!

> > +++ i don't know. if i go fast, i tend to distract myself. then

> > instead of slowing down and get to see " things " , i jump away, and

just look away.

> That's like your mind going blank.

in a situation like this, i know from previous experiences that when

my mind goes blank, AND it's combined with a stressful feeling, then

it is too much for me to cope with for that specific moment. from that

experience i give myself time.

> >>> it sometimes makes me sad,

> >> why? You're not fast enough?

> > no. it's not a matter of being fast or slow. it's a side effekt of

> > clinging to " religions " i tend to think at the moment.

> You said it made you sad that you move too fast, sometimes.

> What makes you said? Get the thought and work on it.

>

> It's not " bad " or " good " thoughts. It's all opportunities.

>

> You know what to do with them.

ok. i am on track with this. i am just letting come the whole stuff

out. then i'll find my sentences, i think.

> >> Thing is: you are already where you want to be. There's no rush,

> >> because you have nowhere to go.

> > +++ ok. sounds like a spiritual saying. ah! i don't know. if an

animal notices an upcoming earthquake it moves away. i as a human,

shall i stay, if i notice the signals. cause all is the same? i can,

and i don't have to, can you agree?

> You shall observe what you do and see that it's good! A confused

mind goes on the street when there are soldiers shooting! There's a

war going on, and people prefer to stay instead of leaving their home.

> And they don't even see they have a choice, sometimes.

>

> Run, when you run. But don't go: " Oh, I should run, what's wrong

with me? Can I run? Don't I have to face my problems? " , etc.

ok. coming back to my example.

if i want to experience the earthquake, unmoved, i stay (whatever the

reason might be). if i want to take a turn and run, then i run. that's

all.

with the person on the street. what is the reason why it want's to go

out?

> ...

> >> There is no difference. Both are movements. You interpret one as

> >> punishment, the other as tenderness.

> >>

> >> That's the projection.

> > +++ ok. i hear what you say. and i can follow that both are movements.

> > a painful hit with a stick is a different movement compared to a

> > stroke of a caring hand on a cheak. at least on the " ego level "

> When a branch swinging in the wind hits you in the face, it is

> painful. Was that caring or punishing?

neither. the stick hit's in the face. if i am outside with

functioning senses. at a stormy moment, i try to protect myself from

getting hitted by branches. right?

when i get hit by a parent to get punished that is with an intend.

this stick, compared to the branch in the wind, came with a lot of

aggressive energy. and that was the difference then/at that time.

> It's not the physical pain that's stressful. That is not where the

> ego resides.

we have had that somehow already when we were having the topic

physical pain (spasms), do you remember?

>

> The ego is the one that says: " that tree shouldn't have hit me! It'

s a BAD tree! "

>

> Write down your painful experiences with your father. And then try

to put a tree wherever you father was. See how that reads for you.

*** i take one which has a conncetion to something i have written already.

as i said, i was nailbiting. one day he started to try to brake me of

that habit. he didn't want me to do that. so every night i had to

stand before him and show my nails. i remember that one day i could

not stand anylonger to not bite and so ... off the fingernails were...

when the evening came i was in stress, for i thought he will punish

me. i went to the bathroom took a tweezers and scratched under the

nails to create a white fringe to save myself from his announced

punishment. of course he discovered it, and then he came with his

stick (for my naked buttock). he told me a lier and i had been biting

my nail. he called me twofold guilty. i cannot remember if it was

then, but several times he forced me to stay at home and write

sentences like 150 times. " i am not allowed to bite nails " or so.

if i did not have the sentences he had the stick. so of course i was

writing.

so now we got with " the stick " instead of " father "

i was nailbiting. one day the stick started to try to brake me of that

habit. the stick didn't want me to do that. so every night i had to

stand before him and show my nails. i remember that one day i could

not stand anylonger to not bite and so ... off the fingernails were...

when the evening came i was in stress, for i thought the stick will

punish me. i went to the bathroom took a tweezers and scratched under

the nails to create a white fringe to save myself from it's announced

punishment. of course the stick discovered it, and so it came (for my

naked buttock). it told me a lier and i had been biting my nail. the

stick called me twofold guilty. i cannot remember if it was then, but

several times the stick forced me to stay at home and write sentences

like 150 times. " i am not allowed to bite nails " or so.

if i did not have the sentences the stick was there. so of course i

was writing.

hm.

if it would have been only a stick, i would not have given up my

power. i would have laughed about it, i suppose. hm.

> > [...]

> >> No difference.

> >>

> >> You heard saying " hope is for children " ?

> >>

> >> Hope keeps you from loving what is. And it helps against a greater

> >> fear!

> > +++ do you mean, hope helps against greater fear?

> Yes.

>

> And by that it keeps you from investigating your fear.

+++ ok. seen from that perspective it is in a new light.

>

>

> >>>> For me it's about my peace. No-thing is more valuable than that.

> >>>> Not even my own life.

> > +++ that's a very beautiful statement. it echoes in my mind.

> >

> >

> >>> *** what do you mean with " one part " .

> >> The peace-part. When everyone is nice to you, you can see that they

> >> are not your problem. That's one part.

> > +++ and the other is - when " they " are not nice to me, that's also not

> > my problem? do you mean that?

> when " they " are not nice to you, it's not " them " who are your problem.

>

> A dog bites you, you don't get close a second time.

>

> A Lion scares you, you don't get close to him.

>

> " they " are the dog, the lion, etc. And yet you go to them!

>

> It's not logic, is it?

ok. the difference again, is, a father is not a dog. it's part of your

home.

hm. in a way that drives me crazy. you remember the thing with mary.

in a way it sounds to me like: when you withdraw you fail, and when

you stay you also fail. and when you see your father not as a stick,

you fail.

do you mean that? hm. ?

thank you, take care as well and a pleasant sylvester night for you

love, rose

again, not revised.

[Guest guest]

--..

Now that steve is gone.. I am writing down your quotes.

REality doesnt impose suffering on you nothing does its an illusion.

it was at the bottom of the email.. and i think it is worth repeating..

thank you,

i tend to want to think reality imposes suffering.. my i know victim

self pity mind likes that story..

love, roslyn

- In Loving-what-is , wrote:

>

> >>> i cannot remember a thought of " he should be different " .

> >> And you don't have to. What about now? Do you think he should have

> >> been different, or be different in your memories?

> > ***no.

> >

> >> Would you feel more comfortable, if you had had another Dad?

> > *** i dont know. i could only fantasize over that.

> That's what this is about: Finding your " he should " . Do you have ANY

> advice for him, even any supernatural advice ( " don't die " , for

> instance), that would make you feel better, if he followed it?

>

> That's a " he should " .

>

> >> One that was different from yours? Would you react in a different

> >> way, when you listened to stories about him, when you were talking

> >> about him?

> >> Then I'd do the work.

> > *** i see. the current trigger was a x-mas card from his wife to me.

> > i wept when i got it. such a " crazy " family. : \

> Was that a good or a bad experience?

>

> I mostly cry out of gratefulness, nowadays. And sometimes, I just cry.

>

>

> >>> i dont know if it was just so, or if it was a reaction to living

> >>> with him, but i had " so called " psychosomatic symptoms, such as nail

> >>> biting and bedwetting.

> >> what's not ok?

> > it's not even a question of ok or not. it was what it was. i got

> > beaten for it. that was terrible.

> I hear that that's what's no ok.

>

> You think your life had been better (in whatever way) if he had not

> beaten you.

>

> As long as you don't find that that's EXACTLY what he should have

> done for you, your work is not done.

>

> And it sounds VERY painful to me what you're going through there, so

> I'd go really DEEP with that.

>

> >> would it have been ok if it had been for another reason? If it had

> >> not been that often? Which story do you feel most comfortable with,

> >> now?

> > i don't know.

> Is that true?

>

> Close your eyes and dream of a happy childhood. Of a wonderful

> childhood! Is it different from the one you remember having had?

>

> There's your " should " s.

>

> >>> a psychologist would say " there is a causual connection between

> >>> this " ,

> >>> and the work perhaps would say " can you absolutely be sure " . i

> >>> say, i dont know. could be something from another life as well (if

> >>> there is one at all). and so again

> >>> - bottom line is: i don't know.

> >> Good.

> >>

> >> And I'd say: who cares?

> > *** i agree.

> >

> >> And listen to what the psychologist has to say. What you have to

> >> say.

> >> And I have no need to share it, or to go to war with it. Whatever

> >> you say.

> >

> > *** this " change of persons " in your last four sentences confuses my

> > already confused mind.

> I understand.

>

> >>> fact is: i cannot remember a thought of " he should be different "

> >>> and

> >>> yet i remember being afraid of him.

> >>> so in a way he was my problem. for if he had been a nice and

> >>> adjuvant

> >>> person, i might have developed differently.

> >>> this is NOT, that i am blaming him. things were, the way they

> >>> were.

> >>> it's about the question if another is my problem or not.

> >> It's about seeing that you are on your own. It's YOUR MIND you can

> >> work with. Nothing else. And in that lies the solution to ALL of

> >> your problems. No one can be my problem. That's MY priviledge.

> > *** the last sentence sounds even funny. but again, here is the

> > point of my interest. i know there's a tresure to find. i knew it

> > all along.

> So, investigate. It doesn't even have to be with your father. It may

> come easier to you to investigate something else: your teacher, your

> brother, society, politics...

>

> Whatever is on your mind.

>

> >>>> Who would I be together with THEM without my stories?

> >>> *** well according to my experience, i'ld be together with them,

> >>> depending on my personal setting. whether i depend on them.

> >>> materially, emotionally, whether i have enough freedom to move

> >>> away, and i have others where i can find love and security (in

> >>> germany we say " Geborgenheit " ).

> > *** this might be confusing to a reader as i was having in mind

> > humans in every age, but specifically young kids. when i was a

> > little child, i had no one to run to.

> Is that true? From your perspective nowadays. What about the

> neighbour? The police? A teacher? Any guy on the street?

> It's not a " you could have run to anyone and found protection there " ,

> but the belief that you had no one actually kept you from running

> away as long as you believed it. And is it absolutely true?

>

> When you see that you COULD have run away, you take back the power

> over your life! The one you have so generously given to someone who

> doesn't know what to do with it.

>

> No wonder you feel confused.

>

> > sounds like feeling like a

> > victim, but i didn't, i was used to it. my solution was to be away

> > as much as possible and to tell everything to a dog i borrowed from

> > neighbors to have long walks with.

> > as a grown up, things are completly different. if necessary i made

> > sure so far to not be too close with cruel acting people.

> >

> >

> >>> as a child i had no " no " against him, and yet i was taking care

> >>> of my safety while being with him. but the first opportunity to move

> >>> away

> >>> from him, i took.

> >> Yes.

> >>

> >> How do you depend emotionally from someone. Isn't that believing a

> >> thought like " I can not exist without him? "

> > *** i have no thoughts like this, not even with my darling, or my

> > kids. but i clearly enjoy their company. i love to be with my own

> > company and i enjoy theirs.

> So how do you depend emotionally from them?

>

> >> or " Without him it would be even worse " ? How do you depend

> >> materially from someone.

> > *** i don't. again i would rather prefer to die than to live in any

> > unhappy relationship.

> Yes. And you were mateially dependent from someone at a point in your

> life. That's what you told me. How were you depend materially from

> someone? How in your story, and how in reality?

>

> >> Isn't it that you'd rather have something to eat than to leave? And

> >> can you know you wouldn't have EVERYTHING you need if you left him?

> > *** i always found what i needed. and now over being paralysed and

> > in need of expensive medicine, if i could not afford it, then i

> > again would chose to die, rather than bring myself in painful

> > settings. i will die anyway, that's the reason why i live my life in

> > the now in a way, so that it can end any moment.

> Good!

>

> >> So what does your freedom depend on, other than your thoughts?

> > *** that's a good question. again because it touches this core topic

> > deeply. i don't know if i could stand to live in an unfree setting.

> > i love freedom. but, i have managed it once, i might make it again.

> > who knows. (may sound strange but is meant simple)

> So, what would BE an unfree setting?

>

> Investigate it!

>

> Who would you be, if an unfree setting was never possible?

>

> >> A clear mind can move away or stay. A clear mind moves to comfort.

> > *** with or without moving it's physical vehicle?

> Without having stories about why not to move it's physical vehicle!

>

> >>>> When I do the work I always get the insight that

> >>>> the problems I have with other people lies in my thinking.

> >>> *** are you always in a relaxed mood, that you can let the

> >>> others do whatever they want, even if it might hurt you? i'm not. i

> >>> can willingly open up to the opportunity to move back to that

> >>> condition, but i am NOT always there. i am no shaolin monk (for

> >>> example)

> >> When I am clear, I do what *I* want to do.

> >> AND know it!

> >> That might look like jumping in front of a bus to save someone's

> >> life. It may look like hitting someone with a weapon. It may look

> >> like shouting at kid. It may look like washing the dishes.

> > *** i understand. i still have some fears or sadnesses left. as far

> > as i notice they go along with beliefs i cling to, noticed or

> > unnoticed.

> Good!

>

> >> And whenever you suffer, it's a sign that your mind is off.

> > *** i have heard that sentence several times now. always connected

> > with the work. so i conclude it belongs to the work.

> No, it belongs to reality.

>

> Reality doesn't impose suffering on you. Nothing does. It's an illusion.

>

> > i am living with it, and see if it is true for me (also). no final

> > statement possible yet. ; -)

> No statement is final. Get clear what your current statement is.

> >

> > thank you, love rose

> >

> > not revised.

> Good!

>

>

> ___________________________________________________________

> Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de

>

[Guest guest]

thank you roslyn, i have no clue what you mean with carols e-book.

for you, here's a little song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7nsSA4UGgs

>

> rose.. you might like carols e book..

> on mothers.. it applys to dads also..

>

> its on clear life solutions website..

>

> love,roslyn.

>

>

>

> >

> > ok. part two.

> >

> > > >> Would you feel more comfortable, if you had had another Dad?

> >

> > > > *** i dont know. i could only fantasize over that.

> >

> > > That's what this is about: Finding your " he should " . Do you

have

> > ANY advice for him, even any supernatural advice ( " don't die " ,

for

> > > instance), that would make you feel better, if he followed it?

> >

> > ***yep. i haven't had contact with him, since some years. before

i

> > perceived him as stuck (festgefahren). in case he is still stuck

> > today, my advises for him would be:

> > get off that rill (Rille) of the long-playing record you are

riding

> > since so many years and open your eyes. life is much more than

your

> > limited perception of it.

> > get a broader view.

> > become vivid again, instead of being on " autopilot " .

> >

> > but then, if it is not his path or timing, these advises aren't

> > doing any good to/for him. plus he did not ask me.

> >

> >

> > > That's a " he should " .

> >

> > *** is an advise automatically a he/she should? (independend from

> > the work)

> > and i know that this advise question is part of the work.

> > i may come back to the TA's

> > >

> > > >> One that was different from yours? Would you react in a

> > different way, when you listened to stories about him, when you

were

> > talking about him?

> > > >> Then I'd do the work.

> > > > *** i see. the current trigger was a x-mas card from his wife

to

> > me.

> > > > i wept when i got it. such a " crazy " family. : \

> > > Was that a good or a bad experience?

> >

> > *** it was a " x-mas feeling " of relief and healing. i was very

> > touched by her words.

> > >

> > > I mostly cry out of gratefulness, nowadays. And sometimes, I

just

> > cry.

> >

> > *** that's beautiful. i sometimes weep a little, from being

touched.

> > >

> > >

> > > >>> i dont know if it was just so, or if it was a reaction to

> > living with him, but i had " so called " psychosomatic symptoms,

such

> > as nail biting and bedwetting.

> >

> > > >> what's not ok?

> > > > it's not even a question of ok or not. it was what it was. i

got

> > > > beaten for it. that was terrible.

> > > I hear that that's what's no ok.

> >

> > *** hm. i don't know.

> > starting telling parts of the story, does it do any good.

> > i like a lot, kt's " it's over! "

> >

> > i had forgotten lot's of these events. they started to pop up

again,

> > after opening this topic, and then getting that card.

> > i trust life and it's events, and my impulses even if i don't

> > understand them, for they are not logical.

> > in the past summer, i had a specific moment, when i suddenly

> > switched into a melancholic mood, over the " fact " that he has

broken

> > with his whole family, and so he does not get /experience any

part

> > of the richness a familylife can bring. it did not pass by, but

> > stayed for days. my thoughts around him, kept being alive. one

day

> > i had the impulse to send him some pics. from the garden, his

> > grandchildren, my darling, one of myself. it had popped into my

> > mind, that he has had always said to me: get yourself as old as i

am

> > now (when he was in his early fourties) and then you'll see, then

> > you'll understand. i wrote him just a few lines about my

feelings,

> > of him, not being in the family and then that i am now as old as

> > he " wanted " me to be to understand, but i don't draw the same

> > conclusions. i told him, that i just wanted to share that. it was

> > only a few lines.

> > now this card from his wife came, telling me that he wants to

write

> > me since weeks, but it's very difficult for him.

> >

> >

> > > You think your life had been better (in whatever way) if he had

> > not beaten you.

> >

> > *** no. i don't think that. i know, it also had made me strong in

a

> > way. i learned a certain cleverness over living close to him. and

> > nowadays as a grownup, i think that he is rather burdened with

his

> > personal story, so i can understand and again, - it's over.

> >

> > > As long as you don't find that that's EXACTLY what he should

have

> > > done for you, your work is not done.

> >

> > +++ ok. i think i understand that. maybe his job is not fully

done,

> > so he shows up again.

> > >

> > > And it sounds VERY painful to me what you're going through

there,

> > so I'd go really DEEP with that.

> >

> > *** alexander, i don't know. i don't know if i take escape

> > to " philosophy " here, or if i am really more or less through with

> > that. (maybe i need more time to find out)

> > suddenly these memories pop up. ok.

> > it's a little bit like reading old letters. you dive into that

> > atmosphere for a while, but you do not even read all of them, but

> > instead you pack them aside, or you even throw them away and

> > continue to live your life now.

> > i have a strange period going on.

> > in the german list i had started a work topic around my college,

i

> > did it there, for i thought that perhaps the german context (and

> > language) would make it somehow easier.

> > i'm still not throught with this, but today at work, we were

> > standing together for a glas of wine. i feel a little " autistic "

at

> > the moment, and not very relaxed with that specific collegue. but

> > there we were. 5 people in a circle. i peeped at her and just

gave

> > the frightend part of myself permission and support to be still

and

> > just present. that was good and it was not painful. she is just

> > another human being trying to be happy.

> > something clicked for me.

> > it's somehow similar with my dad. there is a part in me afraid

that

> > an encounter with him could be painful - but maybe i only need to

> > give myself support and permission to be just present, and as i

said

> > the other day, following my hearts guidance. (do you remember the

> > little incident with my daughter?)

> > i have a feeling that this is, what it is about for me, at the

> > moment.

> >

> > there is so much getting healed again at the moment.

> > i often was afraid of having this same " temperament " like my dad,

> > and in fact, when i was very exhausted and my kids provacative, i

> > freaked out some times. i was very, very sorry for that. for them

> > and for me. i was ashamed and deeply dissapointed about myself. i

> > felt guilty. i so much had wanted to not let it happen, to be

like

> > him. i apologized instantly. and i waited till time was ready to

> > apologize on a more " grown up level " to my kids. my stepson kept

> > distance for quite some years. i knew i would have to wait till

his

> > timing was there, to come back, if it would come at all. but this

x-

> > mas he was here for the first time in many years, and we had a

> > wonderful time. :-)

> > do you remember mary, my friend with the hearttransplant. we had

> > split as you know. yesterday i heard that she is really sad about

> > this and busy with trying to find her way with this. i was really

> > surprised, i had not expected that. i thought she was through

with

> > me, too.

> > and yet i had dreamed about her the nigth before yesterday, with

a

> > dream telling me about her desire to reconcile. that's amazing.

> > this healing, reconciling - and the shrink back from imagined

hurts,

> > is, what is the topic (is the other my problem or not) is most

> > connected to.

> >

> > > >> would it have been ok if it had been for another reason? If

it

> > had not been that often? Which story do you feel most comfortable

> > with, now?

> > > > i don't know.

> > > Is that true?

> >

> > *** i don't know. i get blanc.

> > >

> > > Close your eyes and dream of a happy childhood. Of a wonderful

> > > childhood! Is it different from the one you remember having had?

> >

> > *** well with closing my eyes i can report, that with images of

> > painful memories my body thightens. with an imagined happy

childhood

> > it starts to relax, to expand.

> >

> > >

> > > There's your " should " s.

> >

> > *** why alexander? just reading these three last words of you, my

> > mind goes blanc, i start getting a feeling of panic, pain and

> > desperation.

> > it moves away as soon as i think differently about these memories

of

> > my childhood.

> > the strange thing is, because of these symptoms, they have put me

> > into therapy. t h e r e i was introduced to the idea that my

> > childhood was unhappy. when i was desperate as a child, i had my

> > methods to deal with that. there was not that amplifying of an

" I " .

> > THAT came with the therapy. or maybe it was the puberty. i don't

> > know. in a way that I/or the therapy was a liberation (Befreiung)

> > and in a way it caused new problems. I just don't know. i don't

> > know if i start to understand some things which i haven't seen

> > before, or if i start to reinvent a story. i just dont know.

> >

> >

> > > >>> a psychologist would say " there is a causual connection

between

> > > >>> this " ,

> > > >>> and the work perhaps would say " can you absolutely be

sure " . i

> > > >>> say, i dont know. could be something from another life as

well

> > (if there is one at all). and so again

> > > >>> - bottom line is: i don't know.

> > > >> Good.

> >

> > *** yes. and i live relaxed with this i don't know. i find it

brings

> > more relaxation into my mind, than any dubious explanatory

> > statements.

> > > >>

> > > >> And I'd say: who cares?

> > > > *** i agree.

> > > >

> > > >> And listen to what the psychologist has to say. What you

have to

> > > >> say.

> > > >> And I have no need to share it, or to go to war with it.

> > Whatever

> > > >> you say.

> > > >

> > > > *** this " change of persons " in your last four sentences

> > confuses my already confused mind.

> > > I understand.

> > >

> > > >>> fact is: i cannot remember a thought of " he should be

> > different " and

> > > >>> yet i remember being afraid of him.

> > > >>> so in a way he was my problem. for if he had been a nice and

> > > >>> adjuvant

> > > >>> person, i might have developed differently.

> > > >>> this is NOT, that i am blaming him. things were, the way

they

> > > >>> were.

> > > >>> it's about the question if another is my problem or not.

> > > >> It's about seeing that you are on your own. It's YOUR MIND

you

> > can

> > > >> work with. Nothing else. And in that lies the solution to

ALL of

> > > >> your problems. No one can be my problem. That's MY

priviledge.

> >

> > > > *** the last sentence sounds even funny. but again, here is

the

> > > > point of my interest. i know there's a tresure to find. i

knew it

> > > > all along.

> >

> > > So, investigate. It doesn't even have to be with your father.

It

> > may come easier to you to investigate something else: your

teacher,

> > your brother, society, politics...

> > >

> > > Whatever is on your mind.

> >

> > +++ ok. give me some time here. i need to find my oneliners.

> >

> > > >>>> Who would I be together with THEM without my stories?

> >

> >

> > > > when i was a

> > > > little child, i had no one to run to.

> >

> > > Is that true? From your perspective nowadays. What about the

> > > neighbour? The police? A teacher? Any guy on the street?

> > > It's not a " you could have run to anyone and found protection

> > there " , but the belief that you had no one actually kept you from

> > running away as long as you believed it. And is it absolutely

true?

> >

> > *** this question was something that crossed my mind several

times

> > today. why didn't i run away. i don't know. i think - nowadays -

> > because i believed deeply (those days), that THAT is (was) the

way

> > it is (was) EVERYWHERE (parents are all like mine). a memory came

> > back to me, today, that my mum always told me not to run away

> > because i must be afraid of: evil man, black men, robbers,

> > vagabunds, foreigners etc.. ( " Im Wald da wohnen die Räuber "

> > und " fürchte dich vorm bösen Mann " , diese ganze nei.) my

grown

> > up mind today says: that might be rooted in her own lifestory.

> >

> > >

> > > When you see that you COULD have run away, you take back the

power

> > over your life! The one you have so generously given to someone

who

> > > doesn't know what to do with it.

> > >

> > > No wonder you feel confused.

> >

> > +++ i suppose, as a child i didn't know it any better, than

> > believing and obeying them. they allowed and had very little

contact

> > to the outside world or other familymembers. it was the time

before

> > hotlines for kids or so. we lived on the country side.

> >

> > taking back my power came, when i decided to find a way to move

out,

> > instead of killing myself. and by and by, when i met people who

> > supported me, affectionally.

> > you know it may sound strange, but i am grateful for both. my

> > somehow strange parents and these nurturing helpful people.

> >

> >

> > > >> How do you depend emotionally from someone. Isn't that

> > believing a

> > > >> thought like " I can not exist without him? "

> > > > *** i have no thoughts like this, not even with my darling,

or my

> > > > kids. but i clearly enjoy their company. i love to be with my

own

> > > > company and i enjoy theirs.

> >

> > > So how do you depend emotionally from them?

> >

> > +++ when i was a child, i think, i felt dependend on my parents,

for

> > the poverty of social life during that time. today it is

different.

> >

> >

> >

> > > >> or " Without him it would be even worse " ? How do you depend

> > > >> materially from someone.

> > > > *** i don't. again i would rather prefer to die than to live

in

> > any unhappy relationship.

> >

> > > Yes. And you were mateially dependent from someone at a point

in

> > your life. That's what you told me. How were you depend

materially

> > from someone? How in your story, and how in reality?

> >

> > +++ well, i suppose in the story, there was this wish to survive,

> > and survive meant to stay.

> > in reality, it could have been manyfold. kids survive the most

> > difficult circumstances, and sometimes they don't survive. so

within

> > my framework i think - today - i have chosen to stay and endure,

and

> > to wait till i was grown enough to run away. with fourteen i lost

> > the belief and trust into my endurance and strength to stand it

till

> > the time when i was a grown up. i remember that. with 15 i had

ideas

> > how to manage to move out and that's what i did.

> >

> > > >> Isn't it that you'd rather have something to eat than to

leave?

> > And can you know you wouldn't have EVERYTHING you need if you

left

> > him?

> > > > *** i always found what i needed. and now over being

paralysed

> > and

> > > > in need of expensive medicine, if i could not afford it, then

i

> > > > again would chose to die, rather than bring myself in painful

> > > > settings. i will die anyway, that's the reason why i live my

> > life in

> > > > the now in a way, so that it can end any moment.

> > > Good!

> >

> > yes. it works for me. the simple fact that i cannot pee like a

> > pedestrian makes my life compartively complicated. so without

> > material ...

> > >

> > > >> So what does your freedom depend on, other than your

thoughts?

> > > > *** that's a good question. again because it touches this

core

> > topic

> > > > deeply. i don't know if i could stand to live in an unfree

> > setting.

> > > > i love freedom. but, i have managed it once, i might make it

> > again.

> > > > who knows. (may sound strange but is meant simple)

> > > So, what would BE an unfree setting?

> > >

> > > Investigate it!

> >

> > +++ ok. i have to dwell on that somewhat.

> > >

> > > Who would you be, if an unfree setting was never possible?

> >

> > +++ that's a very good question. give me time with this.

> > >

> > > >> A clear mind can move away or stay. A clear mind moves to

> > comfort.

> > > > *** with or without moving it's physical vehicle?

> > > Without having stories about why not to move it's physical

vehicle!

> >

> > +++ oh oh. i didn' understand that in the first three attempts.

my

> > mind goes blanc.

> > let me dwell on that myself.

> >

> > > >> And whenever you suffer, it's a sign that your mind is off.

> > > > *** i have heard that sentence several times now. always

> > connected

> > > > with the work. so i conclude it belongs to the work.

> > > No, it belongs to reality.

> > >

> > > Reality doesn't impose suffering on you. Nothing does. It's an

> > illusion.

> >

> > +++ ok. i hear that. let me dwell on that a little bit myself,

ok?

> > and then maybe i will come back one day, and ask you: what makes

> > you - alexander - make that statement?

> > >

> > > > i am living with it, and see if it is true for me (also). no

> > final statement possible yet. ; -)

> > > No statement is final. Get clear what your current statement is.

> >

> > *smile* and yes. ok.

> >

> > thank you, love rose

> >

> > not revised.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you , and hello

I have read your last both postings carefully. You seem to write from

a rather different point of view, " compared " to mine.

I noticed that I am at a point, where I started to move away from

inner stability. That is rather frightening for me. I don't want to

move into that " space " of depression again. Too dramatic for my family

and myself.

So let's finish that thread here.

Love and again - thank you! Rose