RE: Re: the other (one) is never my problem

[Guest guest]

Hello!

Yes, and...

it goes the way " no two people have ever met " .

When you look into a mirror, and you see yourself, how does it affect

your perceiption? Don't you start feeling different? All that

happens, is that your view changes. You see something you didn't see

just an instant before. And don't your feelings, your mood change

different to the other times? How would you feel, if you were not

looking at your mirror image, but through a window? Who are you, what

are you, depending of the thought " that's me " ?

And all that affects you are your thoughts about what you see: can

you remember or just imagine looking into a mirror, and thinking it's

a window? Experience how you change when your awareness shifts from

window to mirror to window to... maybe: it's a doll, to... nothing's

there.

That's how you don't meet someone.

And it's also how someone else can not be your problem.

Love,

Am 23.12.2006 um 09:02 schrieb :

>

>

> Hi!

>

> My experience is this:

>

> With the people I feel harmony with I don´t have any stressful

> stories. No stories of that I want or need anything from them, no

> stories that the should or shouldn´t do certain things.

>

> And with the people I have dissonances with I have all the stories

> about how the should behave and how they shouldn´t, and what I need

> and want from them.

>

> Who would I be without my stories? Who would I be together with THEM

> without my stories? When I do the work I always get the insight that

> the problems I have with other people lies in my thinking. I maybe

> have the thought that they should love me or listen to me. Maybe I

> want them to understand me or appologize to me. These are the

> thoughts that make me suffer, and without them I don´t have a

> problem with the " other " anymore.

>

> Love,

>

>>

>> hey alltogher,

>>

>> can you give feedback please?

>>

>> " only my thinking is my problem. "

>>

>> well. if i have a person next to me with which i can live in an

>> harmonious way, and there is another with which i am in dissonance,

>> doesn't if have a connection with the " other " ?

>>

>> i am not talking of compulisve or faked " harmony " .

>>

>> both are an offer, or maybe even a challenge, and yet it is

>> different.

>> in the outside world not only in my thinking.

>>

>> hm. i wonder about this a little bit since i have had so many

>> dissonances with people since a while.

>>

>> lr

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[Guest guest]

Well said!

I admire your clarity, sometimes.

The one you have before the " I think " , the " Oh, whatever " and the " I

don't know " come.

Love,

Am 24.12.2006 um 02:33 schrieb mrcitrus6:

> -

> i dont get it.. but it sounds great.. thanks alex,

>

> you mean what we see in other people is our own reflection .

> our own interpretation.. and everyones interpretation is different.

> i think.? roslyn

>

>

>

> -- In Loving-what-is , wrote:

>>

>> Hello!

>>

>> Yes, and...

>>

>> it goes the way " no two people have ever met " .

>>

>> When you look into a mirror, and you see yourself, how does it affect

>> your perceiption? Don't you start feeling different? All that

>> happens, is that your view changes. You see something you didn't see

>> just an instant before. And don't your feelings, your mood change

>> different to the other times? How would you feel, if you were not

>> looking at your mirror image, but through a window? Who are you, what

>> are you, depending of the thought " that's me " ?

>> And all that affects you are your thoughts about what you see: can

>> you remember or just imagine looking into a mirror, and thinking it's

>> a window? Experience how you change when your awareness shifts from

>> window to mirror to window to... maybe: it's a doll, to... nothing's

>> there.

>>

>> That's how you don't meet someone.

>>

>> And it's also how someone else can not be your problem.

>>

>> Love,

>>

>>

>> Am 23.12.2006 um 09:02 schrieb :

>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Hi!

>>>

>>> My experience is this:

>>>

>>> With the people I feel harmony with I don´t have any stressful

>>> stories. No stories of that I want or need anything from them, no

>>> stories that the should or shouldn´t do certain things.

>>>

>>> And with the people I have dissonances with I have all the stories

>>> about how the should behave and how they shouldn´t, and what I need

>>> and want from them.

>>>

>>> Who would I be without my stories? Who would I be together with THEM

>>> without my stories? When I do the work I always get the insight that

>>> the problems I have with other people lies in my thinking. I maybe

>>> have the thought that they should love me or listen to me. Maybe I

>>> want them to understand me or appologize to me. These are the

>>> thoughts that make me suffer, and without them I don´t have a

>>> problem with the " other " anymore.

>>>

>>> Love,

>>>

>>>>

>>>> hey alltogher,

>>>>

>>>> can you give feedback please?

>>>>

>>>> " only my thinking is my problem. "

>>>>

>>>> well. if i have a person next to me with which i can live in an

>>>> harmonious way, and there is another with which i am in dissonance,

>>>> doesn't if have a connection with the " other " ?

>>>>

>>>> i am not talking of compulisve or faked " harmony " .

>>>>

>>>> both are an offer, or maybe even a challenge, and yet it is

>>>> different.

>>>> in the outside world not only in my thinking.

>>>>

>>>> hm. i wonder about this a little bit since i have had so many

>>>> dissonances with people since a while.

>>>>

>>>> lr

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

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> Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It's not about endurance.

It's about loving what is.

How do you get up and change place with the story that the other

place is better?

And how do you get up and change place without the story that the

other place is better?

And don't you sometimes think that you would be better off at the

other place, and STAY WHERE YOU ARE?

Staying sit and thinking " I want to go " is suffering.

Without that thought you can observe what you do, and look at why

it's better that you do what you do. Not to prove anything. Not to

change anything. But to know.

You need an open mind for that. One without fear.

Love,

Am 29.12.2006 um 00:33 schrieb now.hawk:

> Hello,

>

> thank you for your sharing.

>

> i do relate to the " worked " attitude, and when I do the work, I also

> realise that my thinking is the cause of suffering.

>

> But, don't you want sometimes just to get up and change place in order

> to be with people with whom you feel good (or at least better).

>

> What is the subtle boarder line between acceptance/letting go and

> submitting to pain or masochism?

>

> Thank you.

>

> NH

>

>

>

>> Who would I be without my stories? Who would I be together with THEM

>> without my stories? When I do the work I always get the insight that

>> the problems I have with other people lies in my thinking. I maybe

>> have the thought that they should love me or listen to me. Maybe I

>> want them to understand me or appologize to me. These are the

>> thoughts that make me suffer, and without them I don´t have a

>> problem with the " other " anymore.

>>

>> Love,

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Rose,

> again i'm sick and as addition somewhat confused. you can see it in

> my writing. ; -))

Oh, can I?

OK. ;-)

>>> here they are:

>>> what if i am blind?

>>> i cannot see a mirror.

>>> i can only sense the world through the remained senses.

>>> what if i am deaf as well?

>> You have all the senses you need, anyway. The " mirror " is an

>> image,

>> as well.

> *** i understand and i tend to take people literally.

Please, DO take me literally. And experience what that means for you.

What comes up, when you think of a literal " mirror " ? A simple answer

would be: the image of a mirror. And that is in some way the whole

truth.

>> Because you KNOW that it only reflects. And when you're

>> blind, don't you have pictures, as well?

> *** in your mind. i suppose; i'm not blind.

You can't be.

>> And if you have sound only,

>> can't you HEAR that someone is angry?

> *** i was talking about blind und taub /blind and deaf

And you still feel your world through your mind, only.

>> And could that be an interpretation?

> *** yes it could be. and it also could be correct. some

> interpretations even match with the others reality, sometimes.

yes: " others reality " . That's not reality. Don't care about the

reality of others, until you understand yours. Their reality doesn't

have ANYTHING to do with yours. And sometimes they seem to match.

>> And doesn't your mind go: " he's angry, because... " ,

> *** i observe my mind and that's already confusing me. for i am in a

> period in between. i observe it interpreting, and causing stress for

> me, and i know from experience how often it had fooled me already so

> i tend to check the interpretation of my mind as much/often as

> possible.

>

>> " the way he shouts means that... " , and so on?

> *** sometimes yes. if only a little bit possible i simply ask.

Then you have HIS story.

Who would you be whithout his story?

In that situation.

>> Don't you project into the future?

> *** that can happen, yes. when i let my mind fool me/myself.

Well, I think that's what we do, sometimes. It's not our mind that

fools us. It's us believing what it says.

A misunderstanding of the truth.

>> Don't you project your past on what is?

> again, like before.

>> " what is " is ... blank. You put the colors, the sounds, etc. to

>> it.

> *** this is the point where i jump in with memories or images. i

> notice my mind forming sentences beginning with: but if ...

>

>> And YOU define what that means. You interpret " what is " as loving,

>> hating, fun, boring... and you use images, sounds, smells, etc.

>> for that.

> *** again: yes but ... is forming within myself.

>

> i tend to move towards things that stress or frigthen me.

How else could you learn to understand them?

> and i

> notice that my mind goes stressed and even blank over that. i go as

> slowly as neccessary.

Yes. You see, you can't even go to fast. When you try, your mind goes

blank!

> it sometimes makes me sad,

why? You're not fast enough?

Thing is: you are already where you want to be. There's no rush,

because you have nowhere to go.

> and yet it's as if

> i have given myself a promise to walk myself through it and see what

> it really is. in the end i often think of your sentence you once

> wrote in one of the first mails to me.

> " it will end in love and supension " . yes. that's my experience. and

> in between, well - all sorts of feelings.

Good!

>>> i noticed as a young person, how my perception of my own self did

>>> change with the people i was with.

>>> for example if i was with a nice person, i could feel myself

>>> being more nice, or being more crass/crude, less fine.

>>> and the other way round. if someone was crude, i felt sometimes

>>> finer,

>>> etc..

>> yes. I remember doing that, also. Until I realized, that it is

>> ALWAYS

>> about me. I used to use myself to understand others. What would I

>> have to go through, who would I have to be, to experience what he

>> does, to do what he does?

>>

>> Now I use others to understand myself!

> *** sounds cute, and i am like " vernagelt " , at the moment. i just

> don't understand what you mean at this specific moment.

Well, sometimes you try to understand people? And you try to step

into their mind?

Useless.

Use them to understand yourself! Judge them. And do the work.

>>> i had developed something i called in my 30ties, feeling for the

>>> atmosphere in a room, among people and so on.

>>> i will ask the next blind person, if they have a sense like that.

>> They do. Everyone does. And it's a projection.

> *** i don't know. that's one of the points that make it so difficult

> for me. i just am not sure.

Good! You work on it, there's one point less left that make it so

difficult!

What if you did not have to know?

> let's say you have on one side someone who punishes you, and on the

> other side someone who cares in a fine and tender way - that is a

> difference visibly. ok. if i feel punished by tenderness and only

> attracted by punishment it might be the other way round that i am

> attracted, but still there is that difference only the value

> (Bewertung) i put on it, is not equal. so where is the protection?

There is no difference. Both are movements. You interpret one as

punishment, the other as tenderness.

That's the projection.

>>> when you are exposed in a dangerous/cruel setting which you

>>> cannot escape and you want to survive, you develop strategies to

>>> survive till you can escape. here you could say the other is your

>>> problem.

>> No. It's *you* who wants something. And you want that so

>> desperate, you would even kill for it!

> *** let's say i have not given up over the situation (resigniert)

> and still have hope for a change to the better, then i want to

> survive. would i kill for that? i don't know. typbedingt i would

> say: no i would not kill to survive. i would try to escape without

> killing, the other, but when i was 14 and did not see any other

> emergency exit possible, i tried twice to kill myself. so yes; i

> have tried to kill, but myself.

No difference.

You heard saying " hope is for children " ?

Hope keeps you from loving what is. And it helps against a greater fear!

>> For me it's about my peace. No-thing is more valuable than that.

>> Not even my own life.

> *** yes.

>

>> How do I breathe my last breath? Is it in fear, or in love? And when

>> I picture my last breath, how do I experience it?

>

>>> when you are in a setting where peace, harmony and cooperation is

>>> alive, you don't need these strategies. the other one is not

>>> your problem.

>> Yes. That's one part where you see it.

> *** what do you mean with " one part " .

The peace-part. When everyone is nice to you, you can see that they

are not your problem. That's one part.

>>> still not done with that topic.

>> Thank you for working on it.

> *** thanks for supporting me here. that's one of my " core " topics.

> it is alive again, for several reasons.

It's alive, because it's alive.

No need for more reasons.

Love,

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>>> i cannot remember a thought of " he should be different " .

>> And you don't have to. What about now? Do you think he should have

>> been different, or be different in your memories?

> ***no.

>

>> Would you feel more comfortable, if you had had another Dad?

> *** i dont know. i could only fantasize over that.

That's what this is about: Finding your " he should " . Do you have ANY

advice for him, even any supernatural advice ( " don't die " , for

instance), that would make you feel better, if he followed it?

That's a " he should " .

>> One that was different from yours? Would you react in a different

>> way, when you listened to stories about him, when you were talking

>> about him?

>> Then I'd do the work.

> *** i see. the current trigger was a x-mas card from his wife to me.

> i wept when i got it. such a " crazy " family. : \

Was that a good or a bad experience?

I mostly cry out of gratefulness, nowadays. And sometimes, I just cry.

>>> i dont know if it was just so, or if it was a reaction to living

>>> with him, but i had " so called " psychosomatic symptoms, such as nail

>>> biting and bedwetting.

>> what's not ok?

> it's not even a question of ok or not. it was what it was. i got

> beaten for it. that was terrible.

I hear that that's what's no ok.

You think your life had been better (in whatever way) if he had not

beaten you.

As long as you don't find that that's EXACTLY what he should have

done for you, your work is not done.

And it sounds VERY painful to me what you're going through there, so

I'd go really DEEP with that.

>> would it have been ok if it had been for another reason? If it had

>> not been that often? Which story do you feel most comfortable with,

>> now?

> i don't know.

Is that true?

Close your eyes and dream of a happy childhood. Of a wonderful

childhood! Is it different from the one you remember having had?

There's your " should " s.

>>> a psychologist would say " there is a causual connection between

>>> this " ,

>>> and the work perhaps would say " can you absolutely be sure " . i

>>> say, i dont know. could be something from another life as well (if

>>> there is one at all). and so again

>>> - bottom line is: i don't know.

>> Good.

>>

>> And I'd say: who cares?

> *** i agree.

>

>> And listen to what the psychologist has to say. What you have to

>> say.

>> And I have no need to share it, or to go to war with it. Whatever

>> you say.

>

> *** this " change of persons " in your last four sentences confuses my

> already confused mind.

I understand.

>>> fact is: i cannot remember a thought of " he should be different "

>>> and

>>> yet i remember being afraid of him.

>>> so in a way he was my problem. for if he had been a nice and

>>> adjuvant

>>> person, i might have developed differently.

>>> this is NOT, that i am blaming him. things were, the way they

>>> were.

>>> it's about the question if another is my problem or not.

>> It's about seeing that you are on your own. It's YOUR MIND you can

>> work with. Nothing else. And in that lies the solution to ALL of

>> your problems. No one can be my problem. That's MY priviledge.

> *** the last sentence sounds even funny. but again, here is the

> point of my interest. i know there's a tresure to find. i knew it

> all along.

So, investigate. It doesn't even have to be with your father. It may

come easier to you to investigate something else: your teacher, your

brother, society, politics...

Whatever is on your mind.

>>>> Who would I be together with THEM without my stories?

>>> *** well according to my experience, i'ld be together with them,

>>> depending on my personal setting. whether i depend on them.

>>> materially, emotionally, whether i have enough freedom to move

>>> away, and i have others where i can find love and security (in

>>> germany we say " Geborgenheit " ).

> *** this might be confusing to a reader as i was having in mind

> humans in every age, but specifically young kids. when i was a

> little child, i had no one to run to.

Is that true? From your perspective nowadays. What about the

neighbour? The police? A teacher? Any guy on the street?

It's not a " you could have run to anyone and found protection there " ,

but the belief that you had no one actually kept you from running

away as long as you believed it. And is it absolutely true?

When you see that you COULD have run away, you take back the power

over your life! The one you have so generously given to someone who

doesn't know what to do with it.

No wonder you feel confused.

> sounds like feeling like a

> victim, but i didn't, i was used to it. my solution was to be away

> as much as possible and to tell everything to a dog i borrowed from

> neighbors to have long walks with.

> as a grown up, things are completly different. if necessary i made

> sure so far to not be too close with cruel acting people.

>

>

>>> as a child i had no " no " against him, and yet i was taking care

>>> of my safety while being with him. but the first opportunity to move

>>> away

>>> from him, i took.

>> Yes.

>>

>> How do you depend emotionally from someone. Isn't that believing a

>> thought like " I can not exist without him? "

> *** i have no thoughts like this, not even with my darling, or my

> kids. but i clearly enjoy their company. i love to be with my own

> company and i enjoy theirs.

So how do you depend emotionally from them?

>> or " Without him it would be even worse " ? How do you depend

>> materially from someone.

> *** i don't. again i would rather prefer to die than to live in any

> unhappy relationship.

Yes. And you were mateially dependent from someone at a point in your

life. That's what you told me. How were you depend materially from

someone? How in your story, and how in reality?

>> Isn't it that you'd rather have something to eat than to leave? And

>> can you know you wouldn't have EVERYTHING you need if you left him?

> *** i always found what i needed. and now over being paralysed and

> in need of expensive medicine, if i could not afford it, then i

> again would chose to die, rather than bring myself in painful

> settings. i will die anyway, that's the reason why i live my life in

> the now in a way, so that it can end any moment.

Good!

>> So what does your freedom depend on, other than your thoughts?

> *** that's a good question. again because it touches this core topic

> deeply. i don't know if i could stand to live in an unfree setting.

> i love freedom. but, i have managed it once, i might make it again.

> who knows. (may sound strange but is meant simple)

So, what would BE an unfree setting?

Investigate it!

Who would you be, if an unfree setting was never possible?

>> A clear mind can move away or stay. A clear mind moves to comfort.

> *** with or without moving it's physical vehicle?

Without having stories about why not to move it's physical vehicle!

>>>> When I do the work I always get the insight that

>>>> the problems I have with other people lies in my thinking.

>>> *** are you always in a relaxed mood, that you can let the

>>> others do whatever they want, even if it might hurt you? i'm not. i

>>> can willingly open up to the opportunity to move back to that

>>> condition, but i am NOT always there. i am no shaolin monk (for

>>> example)

>> When I am clear, I do what *I* want to do.

>> AND know it!

>> That might look like jumping in front of a bus to save someone's

>> life. It may look like hitting someone with a weapon. It may look

>> like shouting at kid. It may look like washing the dishes.

> *** i understand. i still have some fears or sadnesses left. as far

> as i notice they go along with beliefs i cling to, noticed or

> unnoticed.

Good!

>> And whenever you suffer, it's a sign that your mind is off.

> *** i have heard that sentence several times now. always connected

> with the work. so i conclude it belongs to the work.

No, it belongs to reality.

Reality doesn't impose suffering on you. Nothing does. It's an illusion.

> i am living with it, and see if it is true for me (also). no final

> statement possible yet. ; -)

No statement is final. Get clear what your current statement is.

>

> thank you, love rose

>

> not revised.

Good!

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[Guest guest]

> What is the subtle boarder line between acceptance/letting go and

> submitting to pain or masochism?

>

> Thank you.

>

> NH

What is the deferent between an aple and a banana?

The are both what is

If you have preferences and you prefer one over the other

That is due to the story that you attach to them

What is the deferent between acceptance/letting and masochism

They are both labels, stories that we attach to what is

NOW

If god is everywhere

And...

God is good

So

Masochism = acceptance ?

I don't know

[Guest guest]

Dear Rose,

>>> *** i understand and i tend to take people literally.

>> Please, DO take me literally. And experience what that means for you.

>> What comes up, when you think of a literal " mirror " ? A simple answer

>> would be: the image of a mirror. And that is in some way the whole

>> truth.

> +++ i hear what you say, now; and i take from that that in a way you

> point to the way a human mind works. blind or deaf or whatever. right?

Yes.

> in the other mail you were writing about looking into the mirror.

> (When you look into a mirror, and you see yourself, how does it affect

> your perceiption? Don't you start feeling different?) that's somehow

> different.

No.

Look, the mirror exists in your mind. And the mirror exists for real.

As long as you attach to your stories about the mirror, you won't be

able to see the real one, you will always just see the one in your mind.

When you experience the real thing, all you perceive is richness,

vastness, it's giving.

But that you only can, when you're not busy projecting.

> my thinking appartus is a bit like a lot of mud, so i want to keep

> this topic in a size that i can handle and don't spread that point.

Good.

>>>> Because you KNOW that it only reflects. And when you're

>>>> blind, don't you have pictures, as well?

>>> *** in your mind. i suppose; i'm not blind.

>> You can't be.

> +++ why do you turn the meaning around here?

You always SEE. Some people don't see with their EYES. But they see,

anyway. Images appear in the mind.

The same thing.

Concentrate on those, and work with them.

But don't worry, what I'm saying here has no real value.

>>>> And could that be an interpretation?

>>> *** yes it could be. and it also could be correct. some

>>> interpretations even match with the others reality, sometimes.

>> yes: " others reality " . That's not reality. Don't care about the

>> reality of others, until you understand yours. Their reality doesn't

>> have ANYTHING to do with yours. And sometimes they seem to match.

> +++ ok, i hear what you say. you sometimes sound like an " enlightened "

> being, talking from " somewhere else " so what's left for me to say,

> other than: ok - i hear you?

Thank you.

If you have a question: ask!

You are taking other people as a reference to validate your world.

That won't get you anywhere. It only keeps you from investigating yours.

>>>> " the way he shouts means that... " , and so on?

>>> *** sometimes yes. if only a little bit possible i simply ask.

>> Then you have HIS story.

> +++ yes. that's perhaps at least somewhat more " synchronized " .

Again. No reference => interrogation.

>> Who would you be whithout his story?

>> In that situation.

> +++ good question.

> first answer. just new and open in this moment.

Good.

> next a rejecting reaktion: don't give me that one again. i knew I#ld

> come. ...

Don't take it!

>>>> Don't you project into the future?

>>> *** that can happen, yes. when i let my mind fool me/myself.

>> Well, I think that's what we do, sometimes. It's not our mind that

>> fools us. It's us believing what it says.

> +++ yes. i can agree to this.

>> A misunderstanding of the truth.

> +++ hm. a misunderstanding of the truth? what do you mean with this?

We believe the mind, instead of the truth. We believe there are

stories about this mirror. What he does, that he exists. Instead of

seeing the real thing.

>>> i tend to move towards things that stress or frigthen me.

>> How else could you learn to understand them?

> +++ i don't know. moving away is the other option.

Sometimes you do. Whent it's too much.

says that thoughts are like children: they want to be met with

understanding, and they come back until you do.

>>> and i

>>> notice that my mind goes stressed and even blank over that. i go

>>> as slowly as neccessary.

>> Yes. You see, you can't even go to fast. When you try, your mind

>> goes blank!

> +++ i don't know. if i go fast, i tend to distract myself. then

> instead of slowing down and get to see " things " , i jump away, and just

> look away.

That's like your mind going blank.

>>> it sometimes makes me sad,

>> why? You're not fast enough?

> no. it's not a matter of being fast or slow. it's a side effekt of

> clinging to " religions " i tend to think at the moment.

You said it made you sad that you move too fast, sometimes.

What makes you said? Get the thought and work on it.

It's not " bad " or " good " thoughts. It's all opportunities.

You know what to do with them.

>> Thing is: you are already where you want to be. There's no rush,

>> because you have nowhere to go.

> +++ ok. sounds like a spiritual saying. ah! i don't know. if an animal

> notices an upcoming earthquake it moves away. i as a human, shall i

> stay, if i notice the signals. cause all is the same? i can, and i

> don't have to, can you agree?

You shall observe what you do and see that it's good! A confused mind

goes on the street when there are soldiers shooting! There's a war

going on, and people prefer to stay instead of leaving their home.

And they don't even see they have a choice, sometimes.

Run, when you run. But don't go: " Oh, I should run, what's wrong with

me? Can I run? Don't I have to face my problems? " , etc.

....

>> There is no difference. Both are movements. You interpret one as

>> punishment, the other as tenderness.

>>

>> That's the projection.

> +++ ok. i hear what you say. and i can follow that both are movements.

> a painful hit with a stick is a different movement compared to a

> stroke of a caring hand on a cheak. at least on the " ego level "

When a branch swinging in the wind hits you in the face, it is

painful. Was that caring or punishing?

It's not the physical pain that's stressful. That is not where the

ego resides.

The ego is the one that says: " that tree shouldn't have hit me! It' s

a BAD tree! "

Write down your painful experiences with your father. And then try to

put a tree wherever you father was. See how that reads for you.

> [...]

>> No difference.

>>

>> You heard saying " hope is for children " ?

>>

>> Hope keeps you from loving what is. And it helps against a greater

>> fear!

> +++ do you mean, hope helps against greater fear?

Yes.

And by that it keeps you from investigating your fear.

>>>> For me it's about my peace. No-thing is more valuable than that.

>>>> Not even my own life.

> +++ that's a very beautiful statement. it echoes in my mind.

>

>

>>> *** what do you mean with " one part " .

>> The peace-part. When everyone is nice to you, you can see that they

>> are not your problem. That's one part.

> +++ and the other is - when " they " are not nice to me, that's also not

> my problem? do you mean that?

when " they " are not nice to you, it's not " them " who are your problem.

A dog bites you, you don't get close a second time.

A Lion scares you, you don't get close to him.

" they " are the dog, the lion, etc. And yet you go to them!

It's not logic, is it?

Take care and good night,

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So, let's go on...

>>> i wanted to be save and happy.

>> Is that really true?

>

> yes. i think so. i have described in the other postings which ways i

> found to care about myself. and i am a human that's able to experience

> deep joy. so i charged my batteries outside and beared what was inside

> our house.

>> Go back to a place where it was really hard for you, where you

>> wished to be save and happy real bad. Didn't any solutions come into

>> your mind? Solutions that you put off?

> most of my childhood is forgotten.

Isn't that sweet? What I can't remember, never happened!

> i heard some stories from others.

So the question is: who would you be without THEIR stories?

> like i went to a little spot where " the virgin maria " had a statue and

> a little flowerbed around. there i was found till i turned four and we

> moved away. then i have no memories, and then i remember being out

> with kids, for playing, or neigbors dogs for long walks.

So what is the worst place for you you can remember?

>> The times I was most desperate where the times when I had the most

>> beautiful dreams and compared

>> them with what I had. And I resignated to the life that was meant for

>> me. That's how it felt. I didn't know how to do otherwise. Now I do,

>> and I can see that I could have chosen differently.

>>

>> Can you relate to that?

> i don't know. in a way, seeing it from today, i can imagine different

> scenarios. then, well - obviously my way was to withdraw.

Well, everything you lived, everything you went through was necessary

for you to become the person you are today.

Was it worth it?

>>> i could not defend myself against my father.

>>> physically i had no chance. and the " energy " he " signalised " was

>>> intensively dangerous.

>>> i could try to controll the situation/setting with obeying, being

>>> outside the house away from him, being less vivid than i was.

>> I hear that you wanted to be more vivid, knowing that it could cost

>> your safety.

> yes, so i controlled myself as much as possible. (i have a southern

> temperament sometimes.)

Sweetheart, can you find a place where you knew your father was about

to rage, and you did not keep as quiet as you thought you could have?

>>> ok. if i take my dad as expression of the devine, and i am also an

>>> expression of the devine, then there is no problem. the emotions,

>>> and sideeffects, belonging to that play are " nesseccary " to make

>>> that

>>> play lively.

>> Are you being philosophical or spiritual here?

> yes. i am. i'm in this thread still busy with: can one human being be

> a problem to it's fellow or not?.

Ok. You won't find a valid answer on that outside of yourself.

>> Investigate the " sideeffects " . See how you could choose, how you did

>> choose and find if what you got was any different from what you

>> really expected.

> +++ i have been reading my sentence several times. i don't remember

> what i meant when i wrote the word " sideeffects " . that's interesting -

> and - leaving an empty spot.

So there are none.

And some may come at a later time, but for now, there are none.

> i thought that i have - maybe from that time, but one can never know

> for sure - an attitude, to stay independend from people somehow

> (before it was - as much as i was able to). they can change in any

> moment. with a little distance it does not hurt that much, when they

> start to " hit " .

And it may not have to do with your father, but with your thinking.

See if you find any difference depending on the origin of the origin

of the sideeffects (if you find any)

>>> as a kid i took it for normal. as an adult with a philosophical

>>> background i could say: it's leela. (with or without " don't worry " )

>>> growing older, i noticed, there are different kinds of parents/

>>> adults.

>>> there are " fine " caring ones, there are " harsh " caring ones (i

>>> simplify here). both care.

>> Yes, you define them as " fine " and " harsh " .

>> That's not good or bad, just notice.

> ok. what do you prefer. a painful hit and another human of which you

> are afraid of, or a caring stroke, a cheerful dance, and trust and

> relaxed laughing with the other?

I thought this was about you? Well, I was wrong.

If I get the hit, I prefer not arguing with it in my mind. I have

enough to cope with, already.

If I get the stroke or the dance I prefer not arguing with it in my

mind, as I could not enjoy it, fully.

The relaxed laughing has only to do with my thinking, as well.

But let's go for the painful hit.

Which hit hurts more: the one of a big, abusive man who wants to hurt

you, and means to form you according to his wishes? Or the hit of

someone who knows he has to hit you hard, so that you wake up from a

nightmare, thus saving your life? Assuming they both put the same

strength into their hit?

>>> when i " manage " to stay in that all accepting " mood " /mode there's

>>> no problem at all. neither on my side or on the other. the other

>>> then

>>> is no problem, for there is no problem. there is only expression

>>> of life.

>>> i'm not always in that mode/mood.

>>> any thoughts, inputs from you?

>> Yes.

>> When you are not in that all accepting mood, write down your thought.

>> For later inestigation.

> ok. imagine you meet someone today, you - coming from your bedroom,

> dressed lightly or naked. you cannot escape,

Why would I?

> you are locked in the house/flat.

How would I notice if I didn't try to escape?

> the other is much stronger, and even if there is another,

> it does not help you. this strong being hit's you till you bleed.

Yes.

> is/would that person for you a problem or not?

Honestly, I don't think so.

What pain is more intense: the one from each single hit, or the

thought that it might happen?

You see: I have not experienced that situation, but I have

experienced the pain of being hit until I bleed. I have fallen from

rocks and motorbikes, gotten my share of scarfs. It wouldn't even

come to my mind to blame one of the rocks or the bike. I remember

other experiences with NO physical pain at all as much more painful.

The feeling of my heart being ripped out and stomped on. The feeling

of being sexually abused. The feeling of being betrayed. The feeling

of being responsible for another's pain. The feeling of having failed

expectations. Each of these experiences was MUCH more painful than

ALL my physical pain taken together.

Think of the pain a dentist can subject you to. And yet, after the

session it's over. But these stories about how it's their fault...

look at how long they keep coming, over and over... Until we finally

get to understand them.

It takes what it takes.

And if I am hit, how hard does it take for me to be hit to wake up?

> again, thanks for reading this far, love, rose

Love,

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[Guest guest]

Dear Rose,

I understand. So if you don't wish to go on, just don't reply.

For me analyzing thoughts is a very interesting thing: I try to split them

over and over to see what holds them together. Sometimes when I notice

discomfort, I want to find out where it comes from. So far, I always notice I

believe a thought. And sometimes I analyze them even if there is no discomfort,

out of pure interest.

Depression, for instance: what is that. How would I know I am depressed? I

experience sadness, alright. But how do I know it's depression? I don't leave

bed for days, feel bad all the time. So I have one definition of depression. If

I am in a depressed state and I can remember not having always been in that

state, it must have a starting point. When is that? When my father died. Ok, now

I remember, I was in a bad mood since then, and that I am depressed since then.

And when was the first time I realized I was depressed? ... and so on.

This way, depression becomes rather interesting. And the question " I am

depressed. Is it true? " rather difficult to answer with an absolute " yes " .

So far, it sounds for me like a fear of never getting out of it. On top of the

fears I already have. Like having fallen into a hole, and believing to be stuck

forever. In that case, I'd take a closer look at that hole: how high it is, how

many walls, how they are shaped, what color they have, what I can see outside of

the hole, etc.

So, be well,

gitoros schrieb:

Thank you , and hello

I have read your last both postings carefully. You seem to write from

a rather different point of view, " compared " to mine.

I noticed that I am at a point, where I started to move away from

inner stability. That is rather frightening for me. I don't want to

move into that " space " of depression again. Too dramatic for my family

and myself.

So let's finish that thread here.

Love and again - thank you! Rose

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