Re: Men/long---OT

[Guest guest]

Ron,

Don't crawl back in your hole. This perspective is very helpful. And why is

anger not allowed on the men's list? Is it all sweetness and light, or what?

Sissi

Men/long---OT

> All right, I've crawled out of my hole to put in my two cents.

>

> We men have importance in our genes. I think it my be a curse. Looking

back

> on history, we've been the hunters and protectors of our families. As

> societies grew, we became the leaders, providers and protectors of

society.

> It's been like this forever...well, until recent history. Technology has

> taken away some of the important work men used to do.

> Yes, we kind of took ourselves a bit too seriously and looked down on

> women...the women revolted, got some things turned around, have somewhat

> (though not totally) got the recognition they deserved for their

> contributions to society.

> But with this, men have been stripped away of some of the sense of

> " importance " or " self importance " they have used for perhaps hundreds of

> thousands of years to identify themselves.

> No longer do men need to hunt for the family meal. Meals can be had by

going

> to the grocery store. No longer do men need to be the protectors of their

> families. One just needs to call 911 and protection will arrive.

> The " important " jobs are few and far between. Their are a limited amount

of

> cop jobs, fireman jobs, rescue jobs available. Not everyone is suited to

be

> a doctor, another important job. The military doesn't let you stay unless

> you're a colonel or something.

> So here is " Joe six pack. " He falls in love, marries, has kids and gets a

> job. It could be a factory job, a job in an office, maybe he's a

carpenter.

> He gets up, goes to work, comes home and fixes the fence on the weekends.

> Things go along fine for a while, but he sees other men, more " successful "

> men getting things he wants. Somewhere down the line, he takes stock of

his

> life's accomplishments.

> " Hmmm, " he says to himself. " What have I done with my life. IS THIS ALL

> THERE IS? "

> This thinking can go on for years as he obliviously carries on with his

life.

> He feels something is wrong, but he can't quite put his fingers on it.

>

> One day, a bunch of idiots blow up the WTC. All of a sudden, important

men

> emerge from everywhere. They are covered in dust, bleeding, carrying

victims

> to safety, with little regard for their own safety. The heroes are

> interviewed, immortalized on television.

> Joe six pack says to himself, " I could do that! " as he goes to work like

he's

> done what seems like forever.

> He hears a FDNY fireman get on the stage and tells Bin Laden to kiss his

> Irish ass. People cheer the hero.

> All of a sudden, instinct takes over. The old instincts of protecting the

> family, the feelings of the warrior emerge from the bowels of his mind.

And

> there is nothing to do.

> Heroes are sent to battle, looking very cool in their fatigues and state

of

> the art weaponry. Disciplined men are interviewd and Joe six pack hears

them

> say how they will go off and fight for the homeland. Joe six pack, gets

up

> the next morning, feeling very inferior. He looks down and notices his

> testicles seemed to have shrunk some. " Will they disappear? " he wonders.

> He ponders his life some more as he turns another knob on the lathe in the

> machine shop, or pounds another nail, or makes another sales call.

> It hurts inside. Joe realizes it has been hurting for a while. With hurt

> comes pain. With pain comes anger. With anger comes blame.

> " Whose fault is it that I have such a mundane life? " he thinks. " It's

the

> boss, " who drives to work in a better vehicle. " It's my family, " who has

> never recognized the sacrifices I have made.

> In calmer times, Joe might go by a Corvette, leave his family for a young

> blond, start a business....or he might drink like a pig. Pick any odd

> behavior you wish, for now, Joe six pack is unpredictable as he goes

through

> his life self absorbed, hurting and looking for vengeance. Joe is out to

> prove to the world, to show the world in some way, he too, is important.

> But these aren't calm times. The world is headed in a direction that is

> about as uncertain as it ever has been. And then there is the special

needs

> of the family with an autistic child or two. No, these aren't normal

times

> at all.

> Joe six pack wants to, needs to be important. He wants his piece of the

pie.

>

> What Joe needs to know is that while he is wanting the piece of pie in one

> hand, the other hand is holding the whole f & $^ing thing.

>

> Larry Bird of the Boston Celtics single handedly won a critical playoff

game

> against the Lakers a long time ago. He stole the ball, scored a million

> points, blocked shots, led the team to victory. Fans in the Boston Garden

> were cheering, " Larry, Larry, Larry. " Damn I wanted to be him.

> Later, in the locker room, as the team celebrated the " must win " game,

> reporters gathered around Bird, who, then at about 30 years old was trying

to

> politely answer all questions from male reporters who probably would have

> given him sex if Larry wanted it at that moment.

> " What's it like to be a hero, " called out one reporter.

> Bird, standing about 6'8 " looked down at the reporters.

> He answered, " I ain't no hero. " The crowd of reporters drew silent.

> " I play a game, " he continued. " The true heros are the guys who get up

and

> go to work every morning and give their paychecks to their families every

> week. The true heros of this world play with their kids at night, hold

their

> wives and cut the grass. They take out the garbage. I ain't no hero. "

> Bird's father had committed suicide when he was a kid, leaving his mom,

him

> and a brother to fend for themselves.

> At the time, Bird made millions of dollars to play a game. He cut the

grass

> for an elderly neighbor when he was home in French Lick, Indiana.

>

> I don't know where I'm going with this other than I know how it feels to

want

> more and the frustration felt at not being able to have more.

> We are going through some serious money shit right now and I am ashamed

that

> I can't provided everything my family wants. We are eating and paying the

> house note, but there always seems to be more. I don't feel like a hero

> either. I'm 43 years old and I might have to go to mommy and ask for

money.

> My ego is as deflated as it can get. I suffer from the disease of self.

I

> don't want to suffer from it but I suffer from it anyway.

> Yet, I find myself going on. I want to hold my kids. I am proud of my

kids.

> I don't give a shit that they are autistic. I'm angry as hell that they

are

> autisitic, that there isn't enough money, that I can't find qualified help

> for my business so it will grow. I got the IRS up my ass.

> And I long to do something great. I want the instant gratification of

> scoring the winning basket, hitting the homerun or racing down the

stairway

> with a victim. But that isn't going to happen.

> What will happen is that I'll go to work and try and make a paycheck.

Come

> X-Mas time, I'm hoping to get Abbie's favorite new doll, Sam's spider

racing

> car set, Alec's new bike and Terry a membership to the gym which she has

> wanted all year. And maybe, just maybe, I'll feel like a hero, thus

fulfill

> my need for importance for a moment.

>

> To all the dads out there who feel this way, hang in there. It gets

better.

> Don't quit. Take a long look at what you have before you make any goofy

> decisions based on " unhappiness. " Hug the kids, make wild passionate love

to

> your wife and go cut the fucking grass.

> And if you quit the family based on your own selfish wants, well fuck you.

> Someone needs to slap the stupid out of your dumb ass.

>

> Sorry for the vugarity ladies....but I'm pissed. And this is the only

outlet

> for it. The men's list doesn't allow pissed.

>

> Ron...who's crawling back into his hole now.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/2001 10:04:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

bunnytiner@... writes:

> Salli, who feels she should join the men's list under a pseudonym to find

> out what on earth is going on there

>

>

>

Well, it isn't an avenue to take to voice your feelings....it's an okay

list...but it is more of a list of information rather than what our great

fearless leader has created here.....

Lot's of discussion about treatments...this is good. But I don't need info

on treatment as much as a list like this...

Ron

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/2001 10:18:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

klwally@... writes:

> Am I the only one who thinks it's funny that on our list we can talk

> about anything vulgar, or personal, and on the men's list, they can't

> even say pissed???

>

>

>

>

>

>

Nope....I think it's funny too....it's been my expierience that the more that

one thinks he/she knows, the deeper the stick is inbedded up one's ass....

Ron

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/01 9:20:35 AM Central Daylight Time,

vhunnius@... writes:

> Because today's men have, in fact, been stiffed

But aren't they the ones creating this type of system? I am asking I guess

naively. Is this what you were talking about in previous posts?

le

married to Isaac

SAHM to

Marisa 6

Jordan 3

Christian 2

1-26-01 cvr 5-30-01

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/01 9:27:47 AM Central Daylight Time,

klwally@... writes:

> Now I think back, and WHY was it lazy to stay home and take care of

> my own kids??????

>

>

I agree with this. I have 4 kids. I homeschool my 6yo. My day is anything

but lazy.

le

married to Isaac

SAHM to

Marisa 6

Jordan 3

Christian 2

1-26-01 cvr 5-30-01

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/01 10:02:00 AM Central Daylight Time,

bunnytiner@... writes:

> Some men may have, but never

> the majority.

>

> Salli, who has probably muddied rather than clarified the waters

>

>

>

Let me see if I have this right. Only a few " idiots " ruined it for the rest?

le

married to Isaac

SAHM to

Marisa 6

Jordan 3

Christian 2

1-26-01 cvr 5-30-01

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/2001 11:14:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

DaniMart@... writes:

> Let me see if I have this right. Only a few " idiots " ruined it for the rest?

> le

>

Now you got it....just like a few radical women, who, though they had the

great notion that equal rights were deserved by both men and women, began not

only to castrate all men, but to implant said castrations to all women.

If you didn't agree to be castrated, you were a pig. If you didn't agree to

have the male organs replace your vagina, you were a weak, lazy little girl

who was hopeless.

A few idiots have, through history always ruined it for everyone.

A few whites thought the negro was inferior and the all whites get labeled

bigots. A group of black people misbehave the the whites blame the whole

race.

Look at todays news. Bin Laden and his boys start a bunch of crap and the

world automatically distrusts the entire Moslem world. Oh, we say we don't,

but we do.

Love and tolerance should be the code. That way, my wife can stay home and

bake cookies, (to hell with Hillary) and I can pound nails and we both get to

comfortably keep our own sex organs without the fear of them being stolen

from another group.

Ron...who has obviously opened up a big ol' can of worms

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/2001 11:22:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

bunnytiner@... writes:

> We are all " idiots " in a way.

>

>

Yep...we are sheep following blind leaders who tell us what to think and when

to think it. Thank God for free thinking

Ron

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/01 9:43:37 AM Central Daylight Time,

bunnytiner@... writes:

>

> > But I can remember when our friend got married and quit her job (I

> > was about 8) people called her lazy, she had a kid " so she could just

> > stay home " and when she had her third " Oh, isn't she ever going to

> > stop! "

>

> I am sure that someone has said that about ME!

> >

>

I HEAR this each time I announce another pregnancy!

le

married to Isaac

SAHM to

Marisa 6

Jordan 3

Christian 2

1-26-01 cvr 5-30-01

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/01 10:21:43 AM Central Daylight Time,

bunnytiner@... writes:

> And how many boxes of expensive chocolates have you consumed today

I'm suppossee to eat too???? Gee, I wonder how that got past me. I should

probably grab something so the doctor deosn't hear my tummy " making its

hungry noise " lol.

le

married to Isaac

SAHM to

Marisa 6

Jordan 3

Christian 2

1-26-01 cvr 5-30-01

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/2001 12:12:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

klwally@... writes:

>

> When it comes to working or not working as a mom, it holds true:

>

> You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.

>

> Kerri

>

>

So what your saying is...well, we're all damned...

I'll be damned

Ron...whose always felt damned anyway

[Guest guest]

Ron,

That was incredibly insightful and very well written. I don't know what to

say. I've always seen my dad as a hero. He managed to live through five

girls (who were all teenagers at some point) and stuck with a job he didn't

always want. Sometimes he picked up extra jobs so that mom or one of us

could have something extra and he never, ever complained. He bought a

sports car when he turned 50, but that is the only time I can remember my

dad being selfish. He is truly a wonderful blessing to my life and to that

of my children. I guess I should go tell him that. Thanks for the reminder

Ron.

Oh, btw, don't worry about the vulgarity. You'll hear much worse from me at

times.

Amy H

Kepler 4 ASD and Bethany 5 & 1/2 NT

" Illegitimus non carborundum "

(Lat: Don't let the bastards grind you down)

-Gen. ph Stilwell

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Guest guest]

>

> Sorry for the vugarity ladies....but I'm pissed. And this is the only

outlet

> for it. The men's list doesn't allow pissed.

>

Ron:

I loved this message and it is a very wise one. But I am distressed for

you. The men's list? Must you all be noble and good? Sounds very

tiresome.

Salli, who feels she should join the men's list under a pseudonym to find

out what on earth is going on there

[Guest guest]

> All right, I've crawled out of my hole to put in my two cents.

>

Ron I love the way your write.

And you are so right.

Kerri

Mom to:

Mitchel 6, Autistic

8.5 - NT

See the Family: http://www.johnswdwpage.com/family.htm

" I thank God and America for the right to live and raise my family

under the flag of tolerance, democracy and freedom. "

-Walt Disney

PS:

Am I the only one who thinks it's funny that on our list we can talk

about anything vulgar, or personal, and on the men's list, they can't

even say pissed???

[Guest guest]

<applauding wildly>

Ron, thank you for that.

And just an aside -- if you are a reader, you might go to the library and pick

up the book " Stiffed " by Faludi. It addresses EXACTLY what you are

talking about -- the usurping of men's roles of huter/gatherers and how men in

the 21st century are disenfranchised by society and the ambiguity of their role

in it.

Although it is written by a woman there is NO feminist bias in it whatsoever.

It honestly and starkly addresses the problems, both societal and internal, that

are leaving men feeling just as you described, with an obviously sympathetic

bias.

Because today's men have, in fact, been stiffed.

Jacquie

[Guest guest]

--- In parenting_autism@y..., " The Hunny Family " <vhunnius@l...>

just as you described, with an obviously sympathetic bias.

>

> Because today's men have, in fact, been stiffed.

>

> Jacquie

I think there are many ways in which these lines between men/women

have been so blurred, that our natural instincts are in direct

conflict with what society says we're supposed to do.

I'm still pissed off that as a child all through grade school (in the

1970's) I was told to prepare myself for college and my career, and

that continued through high school. Women who stayed home were

considered lazy and I didnt' want to be lazy did I????

So I went to school, got a job got married had a kid went back to the

job, had another kid went back to the job. And was pissed for years

cause I have felt that I short changed my kids.

Now I think back, and WHY was it lazy to stay home and take care of

my own kids??????

It's like we're not supposed to be men or women in any traditional

roles. We're all supposed to be some non-sexual being that is the

same as the next whether we're male or female, and inside our

instincts are telling us sooo differntly.

there small rant done.

Kerri

Mom to:

Mitchel 6, Autistic

8.5 - NT

See the Family: http://www.johnswdwpage.com/family.htm

" I thank God and America for the right to live and raise my family

under the flag of tolerance, democracy and freedom. "

-Walt Disney

[Guest guest]

>

> Well, it isn't an avenue to take to voice your feelings....it's an okay

> list...but it is more of a list of information rather than what our great

> fearless leader has created here.....

This sounds very male.

> Lot's of discussion about treatments...this is good. But I don't need

info

> on treatment as much as a list like this...

I agree. I am less of a treatment needer (I can read books, heaven's sake,

I can find my own treatments) as a Salli Salvation Needer.

Salli

[Guest guest]

> >

> > So I went to school, got a job got married had a kid went back to

the

> > job, had another kid went back to the job. And was pissed for

years

> > cause I have felt that I short changed my kids.

> >

> > Now I think back, and WHY was it lazy to stay home and take care

of

> > my own kids??????

>

>

> Kerri:

>

> Well, I don't know what you do at work, but at home here I read

novels, and

> eat chocolates. I lock my kids in the basement so that they don't

interrupt

> my fun. And of course I now have that nice Mexican student helping

me

> clean, well, I just don't do anything.

>

> Lazy Idle Loafing Salli

Exactly Salli,

But I can remember when our friend got married and quit her job (I

was about 8) people called her lazy, she had a kid " so she could just

stay home " and when she had her third " Oh, isn't she ever going to

stop! "

It's these images that I remember.

And I look back now at Ultra feminists with much disdain. you know,

I KNOW I'm smart I know I'm as smart as many men, but I don't NEED to

prove all this by BEING A MAN.

It just fries me that a lot of women were brainwashed as kids, and

felt guilty about staying home, when what else could we do MORE

important???

I'm happier now that I see a lot of women making the choice to stay

home if they want.

I'm also happier now that I'm working less hours and can be home with

my kids more.

Kerri

Mom to:

Mitchel 6, Autistic

8.5 - NT

See the Family: http://www.johnswdwpage.com/family.htm

" I thank God and America for the right to live and raise my family

under the flag of tolerance, democracy and freedom. "

-Walt Disney

[Guest guest]

>

> So I went to school, got a job got married had a kid went back to the

> job, had another kid went back to the job. And was pissed for years

> cause I have felt that I short changed my kids.

>

> Now I think back, and WHY was it lazy to stay home and take care of

> my own kids??????

Kerri:

Well, I don't know what you do at work, but at home here I read novels, and

eat chocolates. I lock my kids in the basement so that they don't interrupt

my fun. And of course I now have that nice Mexican student helping me

clean, well, I just don't do anything.

Lazy Idle Loafing Salli

[Guest guest]

> But I can remember when our friend got married and quit her job (I

> was about 8) people called her lazy, she had a kid " so she could just

> stay home " and when she had her third " Oh, isn't she ever going to

> stop! "

I am sure that someone has said that about ME!

>

> It's these images that I remember.

>

> And I look back now at Ultra feminists with much disdain. you know,

> I KNOW I'm smart I know I'm as smart as many men, but I don't NEED to

> prove all this by BEING A MAN.

Yup. And let me amend that to " Smarter than many men " including my dear

husband, Ph.D. and all, but POSSIBLY excluding our PA own, " Where are

you? " Whateverhislastnameis, and Gene (Hey? Where IS Gene? Mr. Blue Skies?

I love happy images...) and Wise Ron of the Vulgar but Brilliant Discourse

on Men in Our Time.

>

> It just fries me that a lot of women were brainwashed as kids, and

> felt guilty about staying home, when what else could we do MORE

> important???

Very little, though I sure understand anyone who needs a job as an escape

from the autistic life at home. Actually I don't care who wants a job as

long as my SAHM status is respected. Surely both can be respected? Never

did like bickering, see too much here at home all day (yeah, yeah, I put

them in the basement but I can still hear their screams as I munch on those

chocs)

>

> I'm happier now that I see a lot of women making the choice to stay

> home if they want.

>

> I'm also happier now that I'm working less hours and can be home with

> my kids more.

Good for you, Kerri. You do what works for you and your family. And God

give us all the wisdom to figure out what the heck that is.

Salli

[Guest guest]

She is happy, her husband is happy, and most importantly, her daughter is

happy. Such a life I am not sufficiently organized to lead!

>

Oh. Does her daughter have autism?

It's another world, Jacquie, it really is.

Salli

[Guest guest]

>

> > Because today's men have, in fact, been stiffed

>

> But aren't they the ones creating this type of system? I am asking I

guess

> naively. Is this what you were talking about in previous posts?

I think rarely do people understand the ramifications of the system that

they help to create. So many effects ripple out from seemingly irrelevant

things. And I think most men are not in control of anything important

enough to be involved in creating a system. Some men may have, but never

the majority.

Salli, who has probably muddied rather than clarified the waters

[Guest guest]

>

>That's just it, why does it matter. We should be able to CHOOSE for

>OURSELVES what works for US. Work or home. Whatever balance we find

>to be right. I just didnt' feel I had the option when I was younger.

>I didn't feel I had a choice. And I'm still pissed.

Every time I call my mother at the hospital, she asks, " have you started

working yet? " My mother saw her job as a part of her self-worth. Don't get

me wrong, she loved her job and I think that she was a woman that definitely

needed to work outside the home, but I can't get her to believe that I am

quite satisfied being at home. In some regards she is probably worried

about my financial status, but I also think that she wonders what to say

when people ask what I do. It's just who she is. She rebelled against the

way my grandmother chose to live and she can't understand why anyone would

willingly choose that path. I love her anyways.

Amy H

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Guest guest]

> Let me see if I have this right. Only a few " idiots " ruined it for the

rest?

Isn't that always the way it is! Though I don't know if they were idiots or

not. Those who run things may well get what they want (although I think

they often don't). Let's just say that man's wisdom is never infinite and

we are all working in the dark. We are all " idiots " in a way.

Salli who hopes she knows who she is talking about as she is growin

confused.

[Guest guest]

> I agree with this. I have 4 kids. I homeschool my 6yo. My day is

anything

> but lazy.

And how many boxes of expensive chocolates have you consumed today?

Salli