Social Niceties (was Re: Diplomacy game)

[Guest guest]

tdtclaw wrote:

>>I'm very good at making eye contact now (used to suck at it, lol.) A small

gain in nonverbal communication will accomplish 100x more than a large gain

in logical analysis.<<

I've found

[Guest guest]

Sorry!

tdtclaw wrote:

>>I'm very good at making eye contact now (used to suck at it, lol.) A small

gain in nonverbal communication will accomplish 100x more than a large gain

in logical analysis.<<

I've found that, constant eye contact isn't even necessary. For example,

when dealing with a cashier, at the end of the transaction, you can say, " thank

you " and look them in the eye - just long enough that your eyes meet. They

take that eye contact to mean that you're not just mouthing meaningless

niceties, but that you really do acknowledge their personhood. They're usually

surprised and happy. I like to make people happy.

- Debra

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>>Why would you need acknowlegement about something that is a given? You

and the other person both know you are a human being. Why are there

words to remind people that they know this?<<

Because it's not a given. Because many people spend a lot of time being

treated like inanimate objects. Because that makes people unhappy.

Have you ever worked as a cashier, a waiter, a clerk? It's depressing to be

seen as a tool of someone else's commercial transaction. It's nice to have

someone acknowledge that you have feelings that are worthy of consideration.

- Debra

[Guest guest]

>>Yes but my paycheck makes me happy. I don't need to be appreciated by

customers as long as I am appreciated by the company.<<

Where do you work that you're so well paid and well appreciated?

(And what company appreciates any employee who's not appreciated by the

customers?)

- Debra

[Guest guest]

Why would you need acknowlegement about something that is a given? You

and the other person both know you are a human being. Why are there

words to remind people that they know this?

DBettis@... wrote:

> wrote:

> >>I don't understand why you should have to ask people not to be

> offended.

> It seems like walking on eggshells to me. Are people so quick to take

> offense that you have to use a common phrase all the time in order that

> they don't? It seems like society has a long way to go if we have to

> rely on little phrases to keep from offending each other.<<

>

>

> Parrish is right. Social niceties are, for the most part, an

> acknowledgement that the other person is a sentient being and not an

> inanimate object.

> Some people (like me) need that now and then.

>

> - Debra

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Why would you need acknowlegement about something that is a given? You

> and the other person both know you are a human being. Why are there

> words to remind people that they know this?

Because refusing to acknowledge another person's sentience is the same

thing as denying another person's sentience. It is *not* a given; it

is something that must be reaffirmed at appropriate times. If your

waiter gives you coffee and you fail to say " thank you " , you are

essentially calling him a coffee pot (since you don't thank your coffee

pot for a successful brew cycle), and that is not what he is.

Reminds me of that ep of Classic Trek where Captain Kirk is trying to

explain this to a highly spoiled and petulant woman (chronologically

about thirty, but developmentally more like about eight). Part of

Kirk's job is to teach her all this stuff that we've been discussing.

At one point, he even tells her, quite explicitly, " Mister , our

chief engineer, has taken time out from his busy schedule to give you a

tour of the engine room. That's a courtesy. You respond by saying,

'thank you'. " Elaan just sniffs and storms out of the room.

-----

Homemade scented candles to bring warmth and fragrance to your home...

Knight Scents

http://www.knightscents.biz

[Guest guest]

Why do people need to have their personhood acknowledged? It sounds

pointless to me. I've never felt a need for people to 'remember I am a

person.' It would make no difference to me at all whether or not someone

said " excuse me " as they had to reach across me or pass in front of

something I was looking at. I know they know I'm a person and I can

acknowledge the fact that they just needed to get something or needed to

pass by.

DBettis@... wrote:

> Sorry!

>

>

> tdtclaw wrote:

> >>I'm very good at making eye contact now (used to suck at it, lol.)

> A small

> gain in nonverbal communication will accomplish 100x more than a

> large gain

> in logical analysis.<<

>

> I've found that, constant eye contact isn't even necessary. For

> example,

> when dealing with a cashier, at the end of the transaction, you can

> say, " thank

> you " and look them in the eye - just long enough that your eyes

> meet. They

> take that eye contact to mean that you're not just mouthing meaningless

> niceties, but that you really do acknowledge their personhood.

> They're usually

> surprised and happy. I like to make people happy.

>

> - Debra

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Why would you need acknowlegement about something that is a given? You

> and the other person both know you are a human being. Why are there

> words to remind people that they know this?

First of all, we are autistic so it isn't a given that everyone sees us as

human.

Second, though, it isn't logical. It's emotional.

The only logic to it is " If you don't want to piss off people, and it is

reasonable to do so, follow the customs of the society you are in. " It's

the same reason I won't show the sole of my feet to some of my foreign

friends (it is offensive to them - not for a logical reason, but for an

emotional one). If you don't care if you piss off people, then don't

worry about it, but do know there are probably consequences and you've

chosen to accept the emotional reaction to others, even if that reaction

is unpleasant. If you can't do it, then you can't do it.

--

[Guest guest]

I've never felt like anyone was considering me an inanimate object after

I do something for them or give them something, just because they didn't

thank me. The idea sounds pretty silly. I don't talk to my plants when I

water them, and I don't always talk to people when I am doing something

for them. That doesn't mean I consider them a plant. Why should reciving

things from someone be any different?

>

> Because refusing to acknowledge another person's sentience is the same

> thing as denying another person's sentience. It is *not* a given; it

> is something that must be reaffirmed at appropriate times. If your

> waiter gives you coffee and you fail to say " thank you " , you are

> essentially calling him a coffee pot (since you don't thank your coffee

> pot for a successful brew cycle), and that is not what he is.

>

[Guest guest]

Yes but my paycheck makes me happy. I don't need to be appreciated by

customers as long as I am appreciated by the company.

DBettis@... wrote:

>

> Have you ever worked as a cashier, a waiter, a clerk? It's

> depressing to be

> seen as a tool of someone else's commercial transaction. It's nice

> to have

> someone acknowledge that you have feelings that are worthy of

> consideration.

>

> - Debra

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't work anywhere right now, but I think getting paid is

appreciation enough. Customers don't need to show their appreciation in

the form of " thank you " for me to feel good about helping them.

DBettis@... wrote:

> >>Yes but my paycheck makes me happy. I don't need to be appreciated by

> customers as long as I am appreciated by the company.<<

>

>

> Where do you work that you're so well paid and well appreciated?

>

> (And what company appreciates any employee who's not appreciated by the

> customers?)

>

> - Debra

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I don't work anywhere right now, but I think getting paid is

> appreciation enough. Customers don't need to show their appreciation in

> the form of " thank you " for me to feel good about helping them.

I'm not quiet as capitalistic as you! When I've worked in jobs involving

direct customer service, I've always felt under-appreciated and

under-paid. A " thank you " wasn't enough, but the pay alone didn't make me

feel good about cleaning up the mess they left for me, dealing with an

upset customer, or even selling them something. $5.15/hour doesn't make

me happy in general - especially when you can't actually live on that wage

in many places.

--

[Guest guest]

tdtclaw wrote:

>

>>

>>>After reading this thread... it seems to me that many situations are

>>>tough when logical rules are relied upon to get through them.

>>>

>>For many of us, that is all we have to work with.

>>

>>

>

>I believe that no one in life truly lives at their potential. You may

>suprised to learn that your potential extends farther than you

>imagine it does. In other cases (as it was in mine), people do not

>try to extend their abilities much nonverbally because they get

>frustrated with how difficult it is and give up. Or, they dont try

>because it makes them feel too uncomfortable or overloaded. However,

>this is not always the same thing as reaching your true potential in

>this area, as I have discovered. Perhaps I'm very fortunate in the

>progress I made. But I think others can improve to, based on how much

>worse I used to be (think worst case scenario.)

>

>

>

>>>Nonverbal communiation is the key to understanding

>>>what to do, or not to do at any moment. The best progress I have

>>>ever made, came from focusing on their eyes, face and body language,

>>>and paying less attention to everything else.

>>>

>>When I try to do that, I not only can't make any sense of

>>any of what I am seeing, I lose the thread of the conversation

>>as well. I become totally distracted as my mind races to try

>>to make some kind of sense of what I am looking at. It never

>>does make any sense, though.

>>

>>

>One thing I have done for years... is whenever I watch a movie, I'll

>watch each scene over and over again until I pick up on the nonverbal

>communication. Now I do it with real people, only I can't rewind...

>

>

Where such a thing is part of the plotline in a movie, it will

be exaggerated enough so that even I can tell that *something*

is supposed to be being communicated, but it's all too

2-dimensional and quick to actually make out any of it, even

using the single-frame advance feature.

>>>I'm very good at making eye

>>>contact now (used to suck at it, lol.) A small gain in nonverbal

>>>communication will accomplish 100x more than a large gain in

>>>logical analysis.

>>>

>>How did you learn that? It doesn't seem to be a skill that

>>improves with practice at all unless one has some instinctive

>>ability to do it (the way all NTs do).

>>

>>

>

>How much have you practiced it? In my case, it has taken many years

>to make my progress... years of doing it a lot.

>

Doing what? If you could " practice " doing non-verbal

communication, you must have had some ability to do it

in the first place. If that ability were *completely* lacking,

how would you " practice " it?

>Most people are not comfortable doing it in the first place,

>

It is *extremely* stressful to try to do it, in part because I am

putting such a huge amount of mental effort into it, and in part

because in the absence of any real ability to decipher any

of what I am seeing, I tend to assume the worst.

It also annoys the person I am trying to interact with, because

I don't hear a word they are saying as long as I try to pay

attention to non-verbal stuff.

>so they don't know what would happen if they actually did it a lot.

>

I can't even imagine what reading non-verbal cues while in a

conversation would be like.

> Mind you, this is nothing

>I'm great at but even a small increase here goes a very long way,

>which is why a small gain that took years of effort is quite worth it!

>

>

It seems likely that you had a lot more non-verbal ability to

start with than I have, since what you say is all at the phys-ed

teacher level of " you have to try harder and practice more and

you've got to belieeeeeeeeeve " , which bypasses completely any

discussion of the details of WHAT you are doing and HOW you

are doing it. That is a good sign that you are doing it

instinctively, which is how NTs do it.

How would someone who has no such instincts learn this skill?

" Practice " is the wrong answer. We can improve skills we have

but we cannot practice that which we cannot do AT ALL.

>What I believe, is the human brain, no matter how it is configured is

>an extremely powerful device. No one can truly say what any one

>persons brain can or can't do because those exact limits are not

>known. Most people tend to rise to what I call the " comfort zone " and

>remain there. Beyond this zone lies some unkown potential which

>requires hard work, ambition and persistence to reach. But the payoff

>can be big.

>

People tell us this sort of thing a lot. It may be true, but it isn't

particularly relevent.

Ride the Music

AndyTiedye

[Guest guest]

tdtclaw jotted this down:

> 15 years ago, I was probably worse off than most in this group are now. That

> is pure speculation, but a very reasonable guess (I was in BAD shape.) Some

> people may not find my philosophy useful. I think it has encouraging value

> for those inclinded to push their envelope, because I'm an example that it's

> possible.

Right now, some of us are in much worse shape specifically *because* we made the

mistake of by trying to pretend we were something we weren't (i.e. " pushing the

envelope " ) in the first place.

Treehouse, from what I recall, has autistics that are homeless, edge-of-homeless

(reliant on others for financial support), alcoholic, have made one or more

suicide attempts, abusing/addicted to drugs, a large number on SSI/SSDI,

previously in mental hospitals... The one thing in common I've noticed that

they usually mention is that they were trying their best to emulate NT at the

time of their crash.

--

DeGraf ~*~ http://sonic.net/mustang/moggy

[Guest guest]

C B Bonham jotted this down:

>> I can't just pull up an image of a " thank you " with  its literal meaning to

>> translate from, because there  is no such thing as a " thank you " .

>> 

> ***

> Thank you is a concept and a demonstration of character.

I know. The problem is that it's not a concrete object or an emotion, and those

are what my brain works well with.

> What words do you use to acknowledge someone  or something he  has  done.

I usually use actions more than words... One of the reasons for this is because

I'm not always in speaking-mode, but another is because even when I am, my voice

is so muted from surgery as a kid (had to have my trachea rebuilt) that people

don't hear me easily. So I find it more effective to smile, nod, wave, point,

shrug, or do other physical things to indicate my feelings.

--

DeGraf ~*~ http://sonic.net/mustang/moggy

[Guest guest]

> I usually use actions more than words... One of the reasons for this is

> because I'm not always in speaking-mode, but another is because even

> when I am, my voice is so muted from surgery as a kid (had to have my

> trachea rebuilt) that people don't hear me easily. So I find it more

> effective to smile, nod, wave, point, shrug, or do other physical things

> to indicate my feelings.

I do the same, and find them plenty acceptible as substitutes for " thank

you " , " please " , " good to see you " , etc.

--

[Guest guest]

Desmond , I think, did an interesting series on the " human animal " or

something similar, that has run off and on on the various Discovery channels

a few times. I've never caught the whole thing, but one snippet I remember

seeing a while back has always stuck with me. He was discussing instinctive

body language, and he chose a bar setting. I can't remember the specifics

now, but he was looking at whether women crossed or uncrossed their legs

and/or arms while talking to a guy, whether they leaned forward, whether

their legs were crossed towards him or away from him, all kinds of little

stuff like that, and WHAT EXACTLY IT MEANT. Very cool.

Elayne

http://cablespeed.com/~solinox/index.htm

" Those who refuse to support and defend a state have no claim to protection

by that state. "

[Guest guest]

Denis wrote:

>>I usually use actions more than words... One of the reasons for this is

because I'm not always in speaking-mode, but another is because even when I am,

my voice is so muted from surgery as a kid (had to have my trachea rebuilt)

that people don't hear me easily. So I find it more effective to smile, nod,

wave, point, shrug, or do other physical things to indicate my feelings.<<

I would think that would work just as well, as all you really need to do is

acknowledge the other person and communicate the appropriate emotion. Am I

wrong?

- Debra

[Guest guest]

Andy said:

>>How would someone who has no such instincts learn this skill?

" Practice " is the wrong answer. We can improve skills we have

but we cannot practice that which we cannot do AT ALL.<<

I don't know what skills I started out with, but I spent much of my

childhood quietly watching adults talk and interact. They would forget I was

there,

and I learned a lot about the adult world. In school, I was quiet and shy

and spent a lot of time observing other children. I became very good at

reading other people's emotions and could predict their behavior quite well. I

often pick up on undercurrents that most NTs miss.

My problem starts when I move from the position of observer to participant.

I have trouble talking and observing at the same time. Sometimes, when I've

been talking for a while and don't sense a response, I panic. When I panic,

I keep talking. It's not a good response.

So we all have our problems. I too am doing much better at socializing. My

professional life is falling apart.

- Debra

[Guest guest]

tdtclaw wrote:

> <>

>

>>It also annoys the person I am trying to interact with, because

>>I don't hear a word they are saying as long as I try to pay

>>attention to non-verbal stuff.

>>

>>

>

>I will consider myself fortune as I don't experience what you just

>said. The only way that I miss what's being said, is when I'm spacing

>out thinking of something else entirely. Paying attention to

>nonverbal expression actually helps me to focus better instead of

>wandering off with my thoughts, as I often do.

>

>

That explains why you think it is merely a question of " making the effort " .

You are able to do verbal and non-verbal processing simultaneously.

Many autistic people do not have that ability at all.

>>I can't even imagine what reading non-verbal cues while in a

>>conversation would be like.

>>

>>

>

>From my experiences, when I have read someones face and knew how they

>felt and where they were comming from, or what they are thinking,

>it's the most awesome feeling in the world. I do not consistently

>have these moments, however I have them more frequently now then in

>the past.

>

>

>

>>It seems likely that you had a lot more non-verbal ability to

>>start with than I have, since what you say is all at the phys-ed

>>teacher level of " you have to try harder and practice more and

>>you've got to belieeeeeeeeeve " ,

>>

>>

>

>I'm sure I have more to work with than some others, we're all

>different. My " before and after " differences are quite drastic

>though. 15 years ago, I was probably worse off than most in this

>group are now. That is pure speculation, but a very reasonable guess

>(I was in BAD shape.)

>

This thing is far too polydimensional for a phrase like " worse off " to

do it justice.

> Some people may not find my philosophy useful.

>

>

I have no problem with the *philosophy*. My own philosophy is pretty

close.

I simply haven't found any way to apply it to this particular problem.

That is why I have been asking you so many questions!

>I think it has encouraging value for those inclinded to push their

>envelope, because I'm an example that it's possible.

>

>

I suppose I am too. I made it through MIT. I have managed to turn my

perserverations

on computers and communications into a career that is both lucrative and

fun, though said

career got off to a rocky start due to lack of the abovementioned

non-verbal communication skills.

I don't think those actually improved so much as they ceased to matter

as much as they used to.

I have improved my presentation skills quite a bit, but my ability to

comprehend facial cues

and the like continues to be non-existant. Working in Silicon Valley,

that doesn't seem to

matter though. People are used to dealing with Aspies around here.

We are the prototype

for the sterotypical computer geek.

I have done quite a bit, but I haven't figured out how to make sense of

NT nonverbal

communication yet, so naturally the story of someone who has *learned*

how to do

it is of great interest to me.

Ride the Music

AndyTiedye

[Guest guest]

> I have no problem with the *philosophy*. My own philosophy is

pretty

> close.

> I simply haven't found any way to apply it to this particular

problem.

> That is why I have been asking you so many questions!

It's a conundrum. I'm sure we all have to be inventive to progress,

as there usually isn't somone similar enough to be a guide. I have

often thought I could help myself, if I could go back in time and

tell myself how to approach certain problems I faced (gracefully

instead of disasterously.) I'm sure you have overcome some things and

your solution wouldn't work for me just cuz I'm different.

> >I think it has encouraging value for those inclinded to push their

> >envelope, because I'm an example that it's possible.

> >

> >

> I suppose I am too. I made it through MIT. I have managed to

turn my

> perserverations

> on computers and communications into a career that is both

lucrative and

> fun,

That's very impressive. At least career wise, you have achieved more

than most.

> my ability to comprehend facial cues and the like continues to be

non-existant.

My condolences. I myself find it hard to accept everything I know I'm

missing out on in life because of this. I guess I'm thankful for the

extent of my abilities, because I could be much worse off than I am.

> I have done quite a bit, but I haven't figured out how to make

sense of

> NT nonverbal

> communication yet

It sucks bigtime, trust me I know

> so naturally the story of someone who has *learned*

> how to do

> it is of great interest to me.

Honestly, I make myself out better than I am. I'm still constantly

frustrated. But it's now peppered with a lot of little moments where

I do nicely. Many times have I been broken by defeat, the point at

which many people conclude futility in the effort, only to rebuild

myself later and refine my approach. For me, I have found pockets of

success only after I broke through the defeat-and-give-up point. They

say " What doesn't kill you makes you stronger " . I have changed that

to say " What doesn't kill you makes you weaker. It is by overcoming

that weakness that makes you strong " . I believe that is what resulted

in me improving. The actual specifics of the approach has to be

extremely inventive on an invidual basis and I can't really impart

that.

-Matt

[Guest guest]

Debra wrote:

>I don't know what skills I started out with, but I spent much of my

>childhood quietly watching adults talk and interact. They would

>forget I was there, and I learned a lot about the adult world.

My two older sisters took turns playing with me when I was small.

They often set up " role-playing " situations (not that they called

them that or thought of them that way) where we would be acting out

" going to the store " or " being in school. " They would be the

store-keeper/teacher/whatever, and I would be the

customer/student/etc. They would give me a script (orally) and

explain what I was to do. As a generally passive child (when with

others; I did have things I liked doing on my own), I was happy to

take part in these games and found some satisfaction in playing the

parts well (enough). I assume I learned a lot that way (without

realizing it) about how to interact with people in certain situations.

I still operate primarily on the basis of " scripts " in familiar

situations (at work, in stores). In other circumstances, my

interaction usually either is nil or else I " inappropriately " speak

to total strangers, saying what I have to say (usually commenting on

something I've just seen that strikes me as funny) and then walking

away. I don't " mean " (intend) to do this, it just happens.

> In school, I was quiet and shy

>and spent a lot of time observing other children. I became very good at

>reading other people's emotions and could predict their behavior

>quite well. I often pick up on undercurrents that most NTs miss.

I was oblivious to my classmates almost all the time, becoming only

slightly more inclined to notice and interact with them by the time I

was in high school. Then, what I was willing to do (interested in

doing) was talking about my areas of interest. Their interests

(typical of adolescence) were totally alien to me and struck me as

" stupid. " I still don't see (don't " pick up on " ) those famous NT

" undercurrents, " though sometimes I find that I have a " sense " of a

single individual's character.

>My problem starts when I move from the position of observer to participant.

>I have trouble talking and observing at the same time. Sometimes, when I've

>been talking for a while and don't sense a response, I panic. When I panic,

>I keep talking. It's not a good response.

It's odd, isn't it, when you -- no, I better talk about myself only.

It's odd when I suddenly start hearing my voice speaking (to another

person or persons) and then panic and lose the connection between my

thoughts and what my mouth is saying. There's no way I (feel I) can

control what I'm saying when that connection snaps. Sometimes the

panic stops me, which is good (or at least, it's probably better than

when my mouth continues talking without the support of my brain), but

then I'm likely to have no idea what I have just said. If the other

person(s) asks me a question about what I said, I won't be able to

respond adequately.

Jane

[Guest guest]

Matt,

Yep.

I don't listen to other people who want to tell me what I can and

can't do. Their limitations aren't mine, and mine aren't theirs. We

may have some common tendencies, but that's about it.

Example: I can drive. I can drive at least as adequately as the average driver.

I see what you mean about the " comfort zone " , and I totally agree.

Being willing to at least attempt to break through limitations, is

what separates the great people from the mediocre ones. The human

project is about being better humans... whatever that means to each of

us.

>

> How much > What I believe, is the human brain, no matter how it is configured

is

> an extremely powerful device. No one can truly say what any one

> persons brain can or can't do because those exact limits are not

> known. Most people tend to rise to what I call the " comfort zone " and

> remain there. Beyond this zone lies some unkown potential which

> requires hard work, ambition and persistence to reach. But the payoff

> can be big.

>

> -Matt

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I don't really notice how people are responding to my job very

much. I just do my job. One time the Big Boss (owner) asked my managers

who I was and told them I was impressive. My managers told me it's

really rare for him to compliment people. That felt really good to hear

that. It was kinda neat, but I don't run on compliments to keep me

doing a good job. Hard work is it's own reward. Knowing I was one of the

most efficient people there was motivating enough.

--linda

wrote:

>

>

> > I don't work anywhere right now, but I think getting paid is

> > appreciation enough. Customers don't need to show their appreciation in

> > the form of " thank you " for me to feel good about helping them.

>

> I'm not quiet as capitalistic as you! When I've worked in jobs involving

> direct customer service, I've always felt under-appreciated and

> under-paid. A " thank you " wasn't enough, but the pay alone didn't make me

> feel good about cleaning up the mess they left for me, dealing with an

> upset customer, or even selling them something. $5.15/hour doesn't make

> me happy in general - especially when you can't actually live on that wage

> in many places.

>

> --

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> *

[Guest guest]

OK. That makes sense. I just think it's a touchy society we live in,

where it's too easy to accidentally offend people. Even the nicest,

kindest well meaning people can accidentally offend someone by not

saying " excuse me. " That's just sad.

wrote:

>

>

> > Why would you need acknowlegement about something that is a given? You

> > and the other person both know you are a human being. Why are there

> > words to remind people that they know this?

>

> First of all, we are autistic so it isn't a given that everyone sees us as

> human.

>

> Second, though, it isn't logical. It's emotional.

>

> The only logic to it is " If you don't want to piss off people, and it is

> reasonable to do so, follow the customs of the society you are in. " It's

> the same reason I won't show the sole of my feet to some of my foreign

> friends (it is offensive to them - not for a logical reason, but for an

> emotional one). If you don't care if you piss off people, then don't

> worry about it, but do know there are probably consequences and you've

> chosen to accept the emotional reaction to others, even if that reaction

> is unpleasant. If you can't do it, then you can't do it.

>

> --

>

>

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> *