Re: Justified bullying?

[Guest guest]

At 05:00 PM 10/3/2004, intoned:

>I agree. And where it isn't an accommodation for his disability, it needs

>to be treated like any other bad behavior in any kid.

Or help them find a way to do it that is less likely to cause a problem, if

that is possible. No " load " on this at all, though. Like when my young

friend's flapping was driving me nuts because I was catching it out of the

corner of my eye, it was really clear that my request had to do with my

problem, not that the flapping was inherently wrong or bad. He tried a

couple of different things, and just ended up using a different stim when

he was at the computer that is next to mine.

>My concern is that my Autistic " wheelchair " (not a physical wheelchair,

>but some of the things that let me access the world much like a wheelchair

>helps people who don't walk access the world) is sometimes the annoying

>thing to others. And even though my wheelchair may annoy others, even

>though it may require others to modify their environment (much like a real

>wheelchair often requires thousands of dollars of building modifications

>which few like to pay for), where it is an accessibility issue it needs to

>be treated as such.

No argument there.

>For instance, my use of a speech device annoys the heck out of some people

>- they aren't used to conversing in the much more linear and slow manner

>that it requires. But it isn't acceptable for someone to say " , just

>use your words " or other nonsense.

>

>If another autistic found the computerized voice disturbing to their

>senses (some do, unfortunately), I would try to find a solution that would

>work but if I couldn't find such a solution, I'm not going to remain

>silent for them either.

That situation is exactly the kind of situation that I would look for a

win-win, because since we both are dealing with an accommodation issue,

neither has an inherent right to have their way completely at the expense

of the other. I have no right to silence you, you have no right to drive to

endlessly disturb me. In a case like that, I'd look at things like sign

language, writing, or even just a reasonable agreement that there would be

periods of quiet for me and times of talking as you wished for you. We'd

work it out in a way that suited both of us and felt fair to both of us,

with whatever adjustments were needed until we were both happy with it.

It does seem to help a lot when you have another person willing to help the

two people find a reasonable accommodation, though--there are a couple of

people who are perfectly willing to let my friend spam them all he wants if

he only asks, now that they know it's just a stim. He is more than willing

to do any reasonable thing, and that's what a lot of NT people don't seem

to realize without help.

Sometimes it's hilarious--he was going through a stage where he would just

pop on and dive right into something, spam or discussion. I said that I

liked to talk to him but I preferred to ease into these things with a

simple " hi, how are you " or something along those lines. Now, without fail,

the window pops up. " Hi. " I say hi back, and then it's " how are you? " and I

will say " I'm fine, and how are you? " and he will say " I'm fine... " and

he's off, LOL! But he learned to negotiate it with me, that what I wanted

wasn't unreasonable and what he wanted wasn't unreasonable, and we could

find the happy medium. And since we could do it, the NT's in the group

realized they could do it too, and they do. And of course, the more

practice he gets, the better he gets at it and the more comfortable he is,

so it just keeps on improving and everyone feels good, which to me is the

entire point of it all.

>Another example would be someone who melts down - that shouldn't be

>treated as willful behavior or punished, but should be handled very

>differently. I know plenty of ACs get teased when they melt down - this

>is often the goal of the bullies in fact. But the bullies are the ones

>who need to be punished and " behaviorally modified " , not the autistic!

One thing that can be done is to assist the autistic person with the

meltdowns. If the person is old enough to understand what you are doing,

permission should be obtained from them to try it, but what I did with my

son and very successfully with our friend (with his permission) is when a

meltdown started, the focus changed immediately to handling the

overwhelming feelings, which is really what a meltdown is as far as I can see.

I would put my arms around him and say calmly " Take a deep breath and get

hold of yourself. " The hug is just a physical reassurance, it's tight but

not scary. If he said he couldn't do it, I would just say " Yes, you can, I

am here to help you. Breathe with me. " and I would take some exaggerated

deep breaths too. That is ALL that we would focus on until he was calmed

again, and there was never any penalty for having it happen.

Afterwards, we would talk about what set it off, whatever it was. If he was

mad because I was insisting he do something for health or safety reasons, I

would go over the purpose of my wanting him to do it, encouraging him to

reason it out. " I wanted you to go back and brush your teeth again because

I could see you hadn't done an adequate job, and doing a good job brushing

your teeth prevents cavities, which can be very painful! Do you think a

sore tooth would be pleasant to have? "

If it was because he had gotten overstimulated, we would talk about

possible ways to recognize it coming and do something about it before it

reached critical mass. If he was legitimately angry or frustrated, we would

address the issue.

At the end of his visit, we went to the airport. He had had a good time but

was very much looking forward to going home, he missed his mom. And his

flight was cancelled. He started to melt down, and a quiet " get hold of

yourself " was enough to remind him just to breathe long enough to let that

first wave pass. We then talked about unforeseeable problems and how it was

very frustrating because it wasn't anybody's fault but it still hurt and

made us unhappy and inconvenienced us.

He was perfectly fine--it's not a technique to prevent the expression of

emotions, so of course he cried and was upset, but he didn't melt down and

start screaming or throwing things or cussing at the top of his lungs,

something that doesn't bother me a bit but tends to freak out NT's at

airports.

The big thing with that, though, is it is done for the autistic person's

benefit, not everyone else's. I don't know about you, but with me, melting

down feels frightening to me, like I am going to explode. Taking the deep

breath and letting the first wave pass just makes the emotion feel much

less overwhelming. Certainly, with the other person's agreement and

understanding of what the technique is, it won't do any harm to try, and if

it helps, it's one more tool for them.

In an ideal world bullies would be promptly caught and punished, but since

meltdowns can be an issue for us anyway, helping the child find ways to

handle them himself is a way of empowering him and affords him protection

against future bullies.

>I know autistics can do things that they do have control over that do

>annoy the heck out of other people. I have no problem with people

>responding to that the same way you respond to any other person of

>equivalent chronological age.

Agreed. I do think it helps if you take the extra step of offering an

explanation, too, when it's appropriate, as that gives the other person a

chance to reason it out for himself and think about it. It's always better

when the person does something because she understands why a given behavior

is desired rather than because she doesn't want negative consequences.

I found after a couple of weeks, our friend was a lot more responsive to me

when I asked him to do something, because there was generally a perfectly

good reason for my doing so and he realized this because I did take the

time to explain. He also quickly learned it was perfectly okay to ask, like

the night I sent him to bed early because it was abundantly clear that he

was tired. He said " It isn't a punishment? " and I said of course it wasn't,

it was just because it was obvious that he was very, very tired and that he

seemed to have a lot easier time with everything when he was well-rested.

He then asked me how I could tell, so I was able to describe to him what I

was seeing that made me think what I did.

I also pointed out that he could choose to go to bed earlier, he didn't

have to wait to be sent, and that getting adequate sleep was part of taking

care of oneself so one had the energy to do the things one wanted to do.

And there were a few nights afterwards that he did just that.

Watching him start to figure out how to get what he needed in the ways that

were best for him and also fair to the people around him was very, very

satisfying for me. He is much happier now, and I look forward to his visit

next summer.

Z

" What are we going to do tonight, Brain? "

" The same thing we do every night, Pinky. We're going to try to take over

the world!! " ---Pinky and the Brain

Visit me at <www.zolaweb.com>!

ICQ#2048151

[Guest guest]

> Or help them find a way to do it that is less likely to cause a problem, if

> that is possible. No " load " on this at all, though. Like when my young

> friend's flapping was driving me nuts because I was catching it out of the

> corner of my eye, it was really clear that my request had to do with my

> problem, not that the flapping was inherently wrong or bad. He tried a

> couple of different things, and just ended up using a different stim when

> he was at the computer that is next to mine.

Yes, although I've found when it comes to workplace accommodations, they

don't often ask the person receiving the alternative accommodation if it

works as well as the accommodation they wanted.

> That situation is exactly the kind of situation that I would look for a

> win-win, because since we both are dealing with an accommodation issue,

> neither has an inherent right to have their way completely at the expense

> of the other. I have no right to silence you, you have no right to drive to

> endlessly disturb me. In a case like that, I'd look at things like sign

> language, writing, or even just a reasonable agreement that there would be

> periods of quiet for me and times of talking as you wished for you. We'd

> work it out in a way that suited both of us and felt fair to both of us,

> with whatever adjustments were needed until we were both happy with it.

I agree I would look for alternatives, but I wouldn't say " I won't use my

voice around you because I know it annoys you. " I would, certainly, use

other means of communication where appropriate, but reserving the choice

to use my primary voice if I desire.

> One thing that can be done is to assist the autistic person with the

> meltdowns. If the person is old enough to understand what you are doing,

> permission should be obtained from them to try it, but what I did with my

> son and very successfully with our friend (with his permission) is when a

> meltdown started, the focus changed immediately to handling the

> overwhelming feelings, which is really what a meltdown is as far as I can see.

I agree. It's also important that the meltdown will be looked at in its

totality - for instance, if I melt down because someone approaches me in a

very condescending manner when I made it clear I didn't want them near me,

it isn't appropriate to treat a situation where the autistic was provoked

the same way as a " tantrum " , which, unfortunately, is often what I see

happen.

I've been in far too many situations myself where rather then realizing

that I was having a hard time dealing with things, a meltdown was seen as

the problem. And fear of unreasonable consequences of a meltdown just

seems to trigger meltdowns in me as I try to deal with the stress of

finding alternative ways of expressing myself, knowing that if I fail

I'll have big problems.

I do think autistics need to learn the signs of meltdowns, alternatives

where practical, etc.

As far as a meltdown being intense emotions, I'm not sure that is 100%

accurate for me. I'd say it is more " brain disconnected from logic " , but

not necessarily " brain connected to emotions. " At a certain point, my

brain can't deal with input. Only one cause of that is strong emotions.

> If it was because he had gotten overstimulated, we would talk about

> possible ways to recognize it coming and do something about it before it

> reached critical mass. If he was legitimately angry or frustrated, we would

> address the issue.

I think, also, it needs to include dealing with stressors that can be

modified. Getting rid of florescent lights in the kitchen, for instance,

might reduce the chance of meltdowns. While it is true that surely he'll

have to deal with florescent lit rooms, teaching him that the environment

can be modified sometimes is also a good life lesson for any disabled

person. If it was bullies that helped trigger it, they need to be dealt

with - it's good to talk to the autistic about how to handle those

situations, sure. But the bullies were wrong and should face

consequences.

> He was perfectly fine--it's not a technique to prevent the expression of

> emotions, so of course he cried and was upset, but he didn't melt down and

> start screaming or throwing things or cussing at the top of his lungs,

> something that doesn't bother me a bit but tends to freak out NT's at

> airports.

You'd be surprised what you can get away with at airports. :/

> The big thing with that, though, is it is done for the autistic person's

> benefit, not everyone else's. I don't know about you, but with me, melting

> down feels frightening to me, like I am going to explode. Taking the deep

> breath and letting the first wave pass just makes the emotion feel much

> less overwhelming. Certainly, with the other person's agreement and

> understanding of what the technique is, it won't do any harm to try, and if

> it helps, it's one more tool for them.

For me, melting down doesn't really feel. It's afterwords the feels. But

because the behavior itself is negatively reinforcing, it doesn't require

additional negative reinforcement. That's what is different between an

autistic meltdown and a tantrum.

> In an ideal world bullies would be promptly caught and punished, but since

> meltdowns can be an issue for us anyway, helping the child find ways to

> handle them himself is a way of empowering him and affords him protection

> against future bullies.

The only protection that worked for me was environmental modification -

that is, removing the bullies. Plenty of time talking to teachers,

shrinks, parents, etc didn't help me - but when I finally moved from my

hometown, the difference was night and day. All of a sudden I found I

didn't wake up wishing I had died. That was wonderful (it still is -

having major situational depression for between 10 and 12 years

continuously is something I'll never fully recover from, but it is so

nice to look forward to things now).

I often see the emphasis with bullying (this is NOT a criticism of Zola

or anyone else in particular) on teaching the autistic how to avoid

bullying, but not removing them from the situations they are getting

bullied in. If there is a bully, there are only two long term solutions

IMHO (short term solution of punishing the bully should be applied, too,

but that won't solve the problem):

- Remove the victim from the bully

- Remove the bully from the victim

No amount of training in the world would have prevented me from being

bullied around the people I was around. I simply didn't have the

cognitive ability to avoid it, despite everyone's best efforts.

> Agreed. I do think it helps if you take the extra step of offering an

> explanation, too, when it's appropriate, as that gives the other person a

> chance to reason it out for himself and think about it. It's always better

> when the person does something because she understands why a given behavior

> is desired rather than because she doesn't want negative consequences.

I think this is a principle of good teaching and parenting in general -

parents who give meaningless rules " because they say so " aren't teaching

the kid.

--

[Guest guest]

I wonder if bullying doesn't come from society and from the times.

Was little Tommy Jefferson bullied?

Was Beethoven? Einstein?

I wonder if the present times is so concerned with conformity and being team

players that

both bullies [in that they are expelled] and the victim [in that he must be home

schooled

or move out of the area] are expendable.

Bullies and victims and Asperger's and autistics could be contributing members

of the

group and functioning members of the team but all effort and energy is spent on

maintaining the group/team with nothing left for helping a few eccentrics or

renegades to

fit in.

What do you think?

Let me close by saying I am not promoting group-think nor conformity as a

policy for

controlling citizens rather I am wondering whether that is what's happening

today and that

maybe the Asperger's and autistics are lightening rods.

~Bonnie