Re: Clinical Definition of BPD vs. Our Definition

[Guest guest]

Dear Kyla,

In UBM, and at bpdcentral.net, there are some real-world definitions of bpd

behavior that

might be more helpful for you. My mother also might not seem to fit the DSM

definition at

first glance--only if someone is really familiar w/bpd and how it manifests

itself does it

become evident that she is displaying those criteria in her own special way...

For me, one of the most central bpd symptoms is the inability to admit they have

ever

done or felt anything that, if true, would make them split themselves black.

They can

apologize for doing things they don't *really* think are wrong, but, anything

that in their

moral system is truly bad, they go to every possible abusive lengths trying not

to admit--

expecially projection. I find that any other bpd symptom might be a flea, but

if the

person's got the denial problem, they are likely a bpd.

Another real-world aspect of bpd I find is that you never truly feel good after

talking to

them, even if they have wildly complimented you in the discussion. That's

because the

bpd is not really able to give or communicate; the bpd is unable to really *see*

you as a

separate person and to have any sort of meaningful exchange. Instead the bpd is

only

able to try and use you to fill whatever life and death, desperate need they are

feeling at

that time. With a bpd, they will never truly comfort you--they will only try to

merge with

you in a sickly-sweet way that smells of molestation (and in some cases may

actually

include molestation), or they will split you black and villify you for daring to

express a

*need* for sympathy, or they will just completely ignore you, look right through

you with

that crazy-eyed 'I don't get it' bpd expression, and talk about something that

matters to

them.

And, when you first meet a bpd, if you start feeling close to them, you get the

sense that

they *are* you--not that they care about you, but they actually *are* your other

half.

These are my experiences with around 6 or so bpds in various arenas. Lay world

advice,

hope it's helpful!

This is also a good time to point out that many of you may have ptsd, but don't

seem at

first glance to fit the criteria in the DSM. For over two years I tried to

convince two

different therapists that I had ptsd, and they kept pulling out the DSM and

telling me I

didn't have it. It was only when I ordered a book by Vermillya and started

seeing a real

trauma specialst, and also read 'Trauma and Recovery', that I learned how my

ptsd was

manifesting itself. When I got treatment for trauma, that's when I really

started to

progress and become happier and healthier. Now, I can see how my symptoms

manifest,

but at first glance it wasn't obvious. Sleeping 15 hours a day, for example, IS

in fact

'dissociation'. I DID have frequent nightmares, just wasn't used to anyone

caring or taking

them seriously. I DID have flashbacks, but they were physical feelings and not

memories.

Etc etc. Moral of the story: if you know something, don't stop at the DSM.

Keep digging!

Good luck,

Charlie

>

> I read the recent thread that dealt with the DSM-III clinical

> criteria for BPD and either the terms might have been over my head,

> or my nada isn't quite BPD, but she's definitely in need of SOME

> diagnosis --

>

> For instance -- she doesn't " abuse drugs " but she does call the

> doctor at the slightest adversity to get tranquilizers. (Her own

> mother dealt with adversity by alcohol, so I guess nada was taught

> to medicate yourself to deal with life.)

>

> My nada was extremely selfish while I was growing up -- also

> extremely fearful, split people black, jealous of me as I matured

> into adolescence and boys started paying attention.

>

> She ruled our house with her anger -- we weren't allowed to feel

> anything. My brother and I just retreated into our own worlds --

> brother and I both floundered in early adulthood, but thank God we

> both found our footing in our 30's....

>

> Now she's retreating from my own children, who she adores, but she's

> either too lazy or dumbfounded on how to conduct a relationship with

> wonderful grandchildren. It never occurs to her to pick up the

> phone and plan something or invite them. In fact, she's started

> saying " Oh, I guess they're getting too old to be interested in us

> now. " (Well, I guess if you don't do a damn thing to build a

> relationship, it won't grow, will it?)

>

> Anyway, what I'm trying to articulate is I don't know if my mom is

> technically BPD based on the clinical definition, but I definitely

> see her in many of the posts on this board. The anger, selfishness,

> splitting black, self-hatred......wait a minute -- maybe she does

> fit the criteria!

>

> I'm just a little confused with the harsh sounding clinical

> definition and our anecdotal definitions here (which I understand

> better). My therapist just calls my parents just plain selfish.

>

> Any thoughts?

>

> -Kyla

>

[Guest guest]

Charlie --

Enormously helpful -- thank you so much! That's a good

description " real world BPD behavior " . That's what it is.

Also, my nada displays impulsivity now that I think about it.

Inappropriate flirting or assuming intimacy with my husband's

friends that she finds attractive. Thinking men are looking at her

when I didn't see any evidence of that.

Having too much wine and spouting inappropriate, vulgar comments at

my fada's company conference dinner. (The comments were directed at

a boss of a much higher level!)

When she met my boss -- who was about her age -- her flirtation was

sickening. Laid it on waaaaay too thickly.....

etc, etc....As I said before -- now that I think about it, maybe she

IS BPD!

Thanks for the info on Post-traumatic stress disorder, too. As I

reflect back on my younger years, I see where I was too traumatized

to take my place in this world as a rightful inhabitant. I let

people walk all over me.....I'm going to look into that.

Thanks again, Charlie.

-Kyla

> >

> > I read the recent thread that dealt with the DSM-III clinical

> > criteria for BPD and either the terms might have been over my

head,

> > or my nada isn't quite BPD, but she's definitely in need of SOME

> > diagnosis --

> >

> > For instance -- she doesn't " abuse drugs " but she does call the

> > doctor at the slightest adversity to get tranquilizers. (Her

own

> > mother dealt with adversity by alcohol, so I guess nada was

taught

> > to medicate yourself to deal with life.)

> >

> > My nada was extremely selfish while I was growing up -- also

> > extremely fearful, split people black, jealous of me as I

matured

> > into adolescence and boys started paying attention.

> >

> > She ruled our house with her anger -- we weren't allowed to feel

> > anything. My brother and I just retreated into our own worlds --

> > brother and I both floundered in early adulthood, but thank God

we

> > both found our footing in our 30's....

> >

> > Now she's retreating from my own children, who she adores, but

she's

> > either too lazy or dumbfounded on how to conduct a relationship

with

> > wonderful grandchildren. It never occurs to her to pick up the

> > phone and plan something or invite them. In fact, she's started

> > saying " Oh, I guess they're getting too old to be interested in

us

> > now. " (Well, I guess if you don't do a damn thing to build a

> > relationship, it won't grow, will it?)

> >

> > Anyway, what I'm trying to articulate is I don't know if my mom

is

> > technically BPD based on the clinical definition, but I

definitely

> > see her in many of the posts on this board. The anger,

selfishness,

> > splitting black, self-hatred......wait a minute -- maybe she

does

> > fit the criteria!

> >

> > I'm just a little confused with the harsh sounding clinical

> > definition and our anecdotal definitions here (which I

understand

> > better). My therapist just calls my parents just plain selfish.

> >

> > Any thoughts?

> >

> > -Kyla

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Kyla,

Only a doc can diagnose a person. However, many docs don't want to dx a

person with bpd for many reasons, as outlined in SWOE. From everything you

have written about your nada, she fits the bill. But most important, and you

are, do what ever makes you heal yourself. A label is just a label. It can

help us understand and direct us to resources to heal, but you know your nada

better than the DSM and your therapist. I think it is actually dangerous to

under diagnose a person = Oh, they're just angry, when they are a sociopath.

Point is, your treatment would be different is someone has a rage disorder than

if they were a sociopath. Same for calling someone selfish if they are BPD,

especially b/c selfishness is just one facet of their arsenol.

Greg.

kylaboo728 wrote:

I read the recent thread that dealt with the DSM-III clinical

criteria for BPD and either the terms might have been over my head,

or my nada isn't quite BPD, but she's definitely in need of SOME

diagnosis --

For instance -- she doesn't " abuse drugs " but she does call the

doctor at the slightest adversity to get tranquilizers. (Her own

mother dealt with adversity by alcohol, so I guess nada was taught

to medicate yourself to deal with life.)

My nada was extremely selfish while I was growing up -- also

extremely fearful, split people black, jealous of me as I matured

into adolescence and boys started paying attention.

She ruled our house with her anger -- we weren't allowed to feel

anything. My brother and I just retreated into our own worlds --

brother and I both floundered in early adulthood, but thank God we

both found our footing in our 30's....

Now she's retreating from my own children, who she adores, but she's

either too lazy or dumbfounded on how to conduct a relationship with

wonderful grandchildren. It never occurs to her to pick up the

phone and plan something or invite them. In fact, she's started

saying " Oh, I guess they're getting too old to be interested in us

now. " (Well, I guess if you don't do a damn thing to build a

relationship, it won't grow, will it?)

Anyway, what I'm trying to articulate is I don't know if my mom is

technically BPD based on the clinical definition, but I definitely

see her in many of the posts on this board. The anger, selfishness,

splitting black, self-hatred......wait a minute -- maybe she does

fit the criteria!

I'm just a little confused with the harsh sounding clinical

definition and our anecdotal definitions here (which I understand

better). My therapist just calls my parents just plain selfish.

Any thoughts?

-Kyla

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

While looking on the internet for bpdcentral.net (that domain is for

sale, it said -- maybe getting ready to shut down?) and found this

information, which described my nada perfectly, in terms I could

understand:

" Relationships with others are intense but stormy and unstable with

marked shifts of feelings and difficulties in maintaining intimate,

close connections. The person may manipulate others and often has

difficulty with trusting others. There is also emotional instability

with marked and frequent shifts to an empty lonely depression or to

irritability and anxiety. There may be unpredictable and impulsive

behavior which might include excessive spending, promiscuity,

gambling, drug or alcohol abuse, shoplifting, overeating or

physically self-damaging actions such as suicide gestures. The

person may show inappropriate and intense anger or rage with temper

tantrums, constant brooding and resentment, feelings of deprivation,

and a loss of control or fear of loss of control over angry

feelings. There are also identity disturbances with confusion and

uncertainty about self-identity, sexuality, life goals and values,

career choices, friendships. There is a deep-seated feeling that one

is flawed, defective, damaged or bad in some way, with a tendency to

go to extremes in thinking, feeling or behavior. Under extreme

stress or in severe cases there can be brief psychotic episodes with

loss of contact with reality or bizarre behavior or symptoms. Even

in less severe instances, there is often significant disruption of

relationships and work performance. The depression which accompanies

this disorder can cause much suffering and can lead to serious

suicide attempts. "

Nada hasn't attempted suicide (which threw me off the other

criteria) and her mood swings don't disappear after a day or two.

She does the " constant brooding " like a champ, however. The silent

treatment is her speciality, and always was. Long periods of

seething anger, hypersensitive -- nursing perceived hurts and wounds

from others (she held a grudge against her father in law for

decades. It hasn't ended with his death, either.)

The description also included stresses of life as bringing out the

tiger in a BPD -- especially loss of a parent, which is what has

triggered this latest brooding in my nada.

The website is: http://www.stanford.edu/~corelli/borderline.html

-K

> >

> > I read the recent thread that dealt with the DSM-III clinical

> > criteria for BPD and either the terms might have been over my

head,

> > or my nada isn't quite BPD, but she's definitely in need of SOME

> > diagnosis --

> >

> > For instance -- she doesn't " abuse drugs " but she does call the

> > doctor at the slightest adversity to get tranquilizers. (Her

own

> > mother dealt with adversity by alcohol, so I guess nada was

taught

> > to medicate yourself to deal with life.)

> >

> > My nada was extremely selfish while I was growing up -- also

> > extremely fearful, split people black, jealous of me as I

matured

> > into adolescence and boys started paying attention.

> >

> > She ruled our house with her anger -- we weren't allowed to feel

> > anything. My brother and I just retreated into our own worlds --

> > brother and I both floundered in early adulthood, but thank God

we

> > both found our footing in our 30's....

> >

> > Now she's retreating from my own children, who she adores, but

she's

> > either too lazy or dumbfounded on how to conduct a relationship

with

> > wonderful grandchildren. It never occurs to her to pick up the

> > phone and plan something or invite them. In fact, she's started

> > saying " Oh, I guess they're getting too old to be interested in

us

> > now. " (Well, I guess if you don't do a damn thing to build a

> > relationship, it won't grow, will it?)

> >

> > Anyway, what I'm trying to articulate is I don't know if my mom

is

> > technically BPD based on the clinical definition, but I

definitely

> > see her in many of the posts on this board. The anger,

selfishness,

> > splitting black, self-hatred......wait a minute -- maybe she

does

> > fit the criteria!

> >

> > I'm just a little confused with the harsh sounding clinical

> > definition and our anecdotal definitions here (which I

understand

> > better). My therapist just calls my parents just plain selfish.

> >

> > Any thoughts?

> >

> > -Kyla

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Greg. I need to trust my instincts on this one -- I think

my confidence in nada's " condition " may have wobbled a bit when I

posted that -- after reading the DSM-III description. As Charlie

pointed out, the UBM book has a lot of easy-to-understand

terminology, and I forgot about that. I have the book, and need to

get it back out again.

Saw my therapist last night and she has been continually supportive

of my breaking away -- she's described them as selfish in the past,

but last night, she flat out said " There's a diagnosis in there "

when we were talking about my mother. Maybe she was hesitant to

make an arm's length diagnosis, while simultaneously reassuring me

(as you did) that I can trust my instincts that I'm onto something

with nada.

Thanks for your response -- wise words, as always --

-Kyla

> I read the recent thread that dealt with the DSM-III

clinical

> criteria for BPD and either the terms might have been over my

head,

> or my nada isn't quite BPD, but she's definitely in need of SOME

> diagnosis --

>

> For instance -- she doesn't " abuse drugs " but she does call the

> doctor at the slightest adversity to get tranquilizers. (Her own

> mother dealt with adversity by alcohol, so I guess nada was taught

> to medicate yourself to deal with life.)

>

> My nada was extremely selfish while I was growing up -- also

> extremely fearful, split people black, jealous of me as I matured

> into adolescence and boys started paying attention.

>

> She ruled our house with her anger -- we weren't allowed to feel

> anything. My brother and I just retreated into our own worlds --

> brother and I both floundered in early adulthood, but thank God we

> both found our footing in our 30's....

>

> Now she's retreating from my own children, who she adores, but

she's

> either too lazy or dumbfounded on how to conduct a relationship

with

> wonderful grandchildren. It never occurs to her to pick up the

> phone and plan something or invite them. In fact, she's started

> saying " Oh, I guess they're getting too old to be interested in us

> now. " (Well, I guess if you don't do a damn thing to build a

> relationship, it won't grow, will it?)

>

> Anyway, what I'm trying to articulate is I don't know if my mom is

> technically BPD based on the clinical definition, but I definitely

> see her in many of the posts on this board. The anger,

selfishness,

> splitting black, self-hatred......wait a minute -- maybe she does

> fit the criteria!

>

> I'm just a little confused with the harsh sounding clinical

> definition and our anecdotal definitions here (which I understand

> better). My therapist just calls my parents just plain selfish.

>

> Any thoughts?

>

> -Kyla

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone

call rates.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I fight this fight everyday, even after linking my nada to nearly

all of the criteria and hearing a physiatrist recommendation. That

is it is fight to see out of my eyes vs. seeing the world through

her window of the world. I was one time conflicted with everything,

is the BPD a definition of my behavior, she is normal, I just had a

bad childhood it happens, so many kids have a bad childhood, she

doesn't fit the bill, this whole support group is rubbish, my

children aren't going to have a grand-mother. Then I say no, I can't

dismiss you guys, my mother molested me, and she withheld me without

my knowledge of great opportunity. Maybe she doesn't fit the

criteria, but if you remind yourself why your here you might re-

discover.

> >

> > I read the recent thread that dealt with the DSM-III clinical

> > criteria for BPD and either the terms might have been over my

head,

> > or my nada isn't quite BPD, but she's definitely in need of SOME

> > diagnosis --

> >

> > For instance -- she doesn't " abuse drugs " but she does call the

> > doctor at the slightest adversity to get tranquilizers. (Her

own

> > mother dealt with adversity by alcohol, so I guess nada was

taught

> > to medicate yourself to deal with life.)

> >

> > My nada was extremely selfish while I was growing up -- also

> > extremely fearful, split people black, jealous of me as I

matured

> > into adolescence and boys started paying attention.

> >

> > She ruled our house with her anger -- we weren't allowed to feel

> > anything. My brother and I just retreated into our own worlds --

> > brother and I both floundered in early adulthood, but thank God

we

> > both found our footing in our 30's....

> >

> > Now she's retreating from my own children, who she adores, but

she's

> > either too lazy or dumbfounded on how to conduct a relationship

with

> > wonderful grandchildren. It never occurs to her to pick up the

> > phone and plan something or invite them. In fact, she's started

> > saying " Oh, I guess they're getting too old to be interested in

us

> > now. " (Well, I guess if you don't do a damn thing to build a

> > relationship, it won't grow, will it?)

> >

> > Anyway, what I'm trying to articulate is I don't know if my mom

is

> > technically BPD based on the clinical definition, but I

definitely

> > see her in many of the posts on this board. The anger,

selfishness,

> > splitting black, self-hatred......wait a minute -- maybe she

does

> > fit the criteria!

> >

> > I'm just a little confused with the harsh sounding clinical

> > definition and our anecdotal definitions here (which I

understand

> > better). My therapist just calls my parents just plain selfish.

> >

> > Any thoughts?

> >

> > -Kyla

> >

>

[Guest guest]

K, I might have mis-wrote, it's www.bpdcentral.com. Full of really good stuff.

take care

Charlie

> > >

> > > I read the recent thread that dealt with the DSM-III clinical

> > > criteria for BPD and either the terms might have been over my

> head,

> > > or my nada isn't quite BPD, but she's definitely in need of SOME

> > > diagnosis --

> > >

> > > For instance -- she doesn't " abuse drugs " but she does call the

> > > doctor at the slightest adversity to get tranquilizers. (Her

> own

> > > mother dealt with adversity by alcohol, so I guess nada was

> taught

> > > to medicate yourself to deal with life.)

> > >

> > > My nada was extremely selfish while I was growing up -- also

> > > extremely fearful, split people black, jealous of me as I

> matured

> > > into adolescence and boys started paying attention.

> > >

> > > She ruled our house with her anger -- we weren't allowed to feel

> > > anything. My brother and I just retreated into our own worlds --

>

> > > brother and I both floundered in early adulthood, but thank God

> we

> > > both found our footing in our 30's....

> > >

> > > Now she's retreating from my own children, who she adores, but

> she's

> > > either too lazy or dumbfounded on how to conduct a relationship

> with

> > > wonderful grandchildren. It never occurs to her to pick up the

> > > phone and plan something or invite them. In fact, she's started

> > > saying " Oh, I guess they're getting too old to be interested in

> us

> > > now. " (Well, I guess if you don't do a damn thing to build a

> > > relationship, it won't grow, will it?)

> > >

> > > Anyway, what I'm trying to articulate is I don't know if my mom

> is

> > > technically BPD based on the clinical definition, but I

> definitely

> > > see her in many of the posts on this board. The anger,

> selfishness,

> > > splitting black, self-hatred......wait a minute -- maybe she

> does

> > > fit the criteria!

> > >

> > > I'm just a little confused with the harsh sounding clinical

> > > definition and our anecdotal definitions here (which I

> understand

> > > better). My therapist just calls my parents just plain selfish.

> > >

> > > Any thoughts?

> > >

> > > -Kyla

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I know this is late-coming and may have been said already...I'm way behind in my

reading.

" Drugs " could mean either prescribed medication or illegal drugs. If they are

not being used for the proper purpose it is abuse.

It sounds like your nada uses tranquilizers as her drug of choice and her nada

chose alcohol.

My nada is deathly afraid of medication, specifically psych meds. All of her

nastiness is 100% sober! I can't imagine how awful she'd be if she were hopped

up on a regular basis...scary!

Just thought I'd add my thoughts.

Adria

kylaboo728 wrote:

I read the recent thread that dealt with the DSM-III clinical

criteria for BPD and either the terms might have been over my head,

or my nada isn't quite BPD, but she's definitely in need of SOME

diagnosis --

For instance -- she doesn't " abuse drugs " but she does call the

doctor at the slightest adversity to get tranquilizers. (Her own

mother dealt with adversity by alcohol, so I guess nada was taught

to medicate yourself to deal with life.)

My nada was extremely selfish while I was growing up -- also

extremely fearful, split people black, jealous of me as I matured

into adolescence and boys started paying attention.

She ruled our house with her anger -- we weren't allowed to feel

anything. My brother and I just retreated into our own worlds --

brother and I both floundered in early adulthood, but thank God we

both found our footing in our 30's....

Now she's retreating from my own children, who she adores, but she's

either too lazy or dumbfounded on how to conduct a relationship with

wonderful grandchildren. It never occurs to her to pick up the

phone and plan something or invite them. In fact, she's started

saying " Oh, I guess they're getting too old to be interested in us

now. " (Well, I guess if you don't do a damn thing to build a

relationship, it won't grow, will it?)

Anyway, what I'm trying to articulate is I don't know if my mom is

technically BPD based on the clinical definition, but I definitely

see her in many of the posts on this board. The anger, selfishness,

splitting black, self-hatred......wait a minute -- maybe she does

fit the criteria!

I'm just a little confused with the harsh sounding clinical

definition and our anecdotal definitions here (which I understand

better). My therapist just calls my parents just plain selfish.

Any thoughts?

-Kyla

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