Re: Danger Situations in EMS

[Guest guest]

Does anybody keep a file of the disscussions?

I think we've already hashed out the firearms thing... as I recall the

consensus was to not carry unless it was manditory for your job as dictated by

your employer.

The body armor issue is just plain common sense...

Austin EMS uses ballistic plate carrier vests... essentially combat vests with

big reflective EMS front and back. I have a feeling that some of the

Paramedics in town might wear police style vests under their uniforms but I

haven't run into any...

Does anyone know if TDH invited a body-armor manufacturer to the upcomming EMS

confrence? While probally not nessicary for many... it might wake a few folks

up as to the need for protection in the more violent systems.

:-{)>

Jt

john paramedic

austin

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[Guest guest]

Common people, are we here to help, or here to start crap

[] Danger Situations in EMS

I would like to get some input on peoples opinion

whether body armor and guns should be a standard issue for EMS personnel.

Thank for your input....Lee Arteaga EMT-I

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Where do you work that a question like that would be relevant? It is a sad

state of affairs where we have to consider shooting to serve. <shaking

head>

Lawrence, emt-p (inactive)

RAC-U

Education Committee, Chair

Visit our Web site at http:www2.interconnect.net/nueces/rac.htm

List: mailto:Texas_RAC_Uegroups

[] Danger Situations in EMS

I would like to get some input on peoples opinion

whether body armor and guns should be a standard issue for EMS personnel.

Thank for your input....Lee Arteaga EMT-I

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

No, they shouldn't. That's what law enforcement is for.

J. Craig Shelton, RN, EMT-P

MCHD EMS

[] Danger Situations in EMS

>I would like to get some input on peoples opinion

>whether body armor and guns should be a standard issue for EMS personnel.

>Thank for your input....Lee Arteaga EMT-I

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Depending upon the situation, soft body armor or even the " SWAT-style " vests

with EMS placards are not only appropriate, but often may be essential to your

safety and survival. They may not be necessary all the time, and you may NEVER

run up on a situation that puts the vest manufacturer's warrantee on the line

but you never know.

As for firearms...I am a concealed handgun license holder (and proud of this

fact for you Handgun Control, Inc. supporters), and I NEVER carry my weapon on

the unit. Firearms are not appropriate on an EMS unit, you CAN'T carry them

into the Emergency Department, and if you leave it unsecure in your rig and it

gets stolen or abused, guess who's fault it is? We are Street Medic, not SWAT

Medics. We are here to save lives, not take them. This gun on the rig question

was beaten to death a long time ago, so I'll let it die again...

It is not your responsibility to take action to stop a criminal act, it is your

job to protect YOURSELF, your PARTNER, your PATIENT, and again YOURSELF! The

only time you should be on a violent scene is AFTER law enforcement has arrived

and secured the scene, and has then called you in. If you are on a scene that

suddenly becomes violent, LEAVE ANY WAY YOU CAN. Always leave an escape route,

always keep an eye on bystanders, always keep yourself safe. There are 2 books

out there: " Street Sense " , by Kate Dernocouer (spelling??), and " When Violence

Erupts " , by Krebs; Henry; et al. These books will give you a good idea of the

proper techniques in how to prevent, defuse, or escape a violent situation.

Stay Safe,

Barry E. McClung, FF/EMT-I

Canyon Lake, Texas

" The opinions I express are mine and mine alone and do not represent the

opinions or policies of my employer, volunteer agency, wife, mother, the Pope,

or anything that resembles a sane humanoid lifeform. "

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Barry E. McClung wrote:

>

> Depending upon the situation, soft body armor or even the " SWAT-style " vests

with EMS placards are not only appropriate, but often may be essential to your

safety and survival. They may not be necessary all the time, and you may NEVER

run up on a situation that puts the vest manufacturer's warrantee on the line

but you never know.

>

> As for firearms...I am a concealed handgun license holder (and proud of this

fact for you Handgun Control, Inc. supporters), and I NEVER carry my weapon on

the unit. Firearms are not appropriate on an EMS unit, you CAN'T carry them

into the Emergency Department, and if you leave it unsecure in your rig and it

gets stolen or abused, guess who's fault it is? We are Street Medic, not SWAT

Medics. We are here to save lives, not take them. This gun on the rig question

was beaten to death a long t

>

>

>

> Stay Safe,

>

> Barry E. McClung, FF/EMT-I

> Canyon Lake, Texas

>

> " The opinions I express are mine and mine alone and do not represent the

opinions or policies of my employer, volunteer agency, wife, mother, the Pope,

or anything that resembles a sane humanoid lifeform. "

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Whoops been here before?

Get ready Lee

Henry

Lee Arteaga wrote:

> I would like to get some input on peoples opinion

> whether body armor and guns should be a standard issue for EMS personnel.

> Thank for your input....Lee Arteaga EMT-I

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 98-11-15 22:30:29 EST, you write:

<<

I would like to get some input on peoples opinion

whether body armor and guns should be a standard issue for EMS personnel.

Thank for your input....Lee Arteaga EMT-I

-------------------------------------------------------->>

My opinion only,

Body armor should be issued if the climate dictates. I believe you will all

know what I mean. I do believe, however, that if you are issued a vest, you

should be required to wear it at all times while on duty. This would include

the hot summer time when the temperature soars to 100+ degrees.

I do not believe that firearms should be issued to EMS personnel unless they

are police personnel. I further believe that firearms should not be carried

while on-duty by EMS personnel who have a " concealed weapon " permit. We would

hope that the person who has completed the necessary training to acquire this

permit would realize the danger of having a firearm in an ambulance, ER, or

other such places.

One last item. What does your service do if you pick up a patient who does

have a concealed weapon permit and is carrying the firearm on his person when

you begin your assessment/evaluation/transport? Think about this. Please be

sure that you and your service have a SOP to handle this situation. The

procedure should be for the protection of the EMS personnel and the public.

Do you have a safe place in your ambulance/MICU to place the weapon while in

transport? Does the receiving medical facility, ie, hospital, have an

acceptable and safe place for the weapon to be stored? This are things that

we as EMS providers must consider and take action upon before an unfortunate

event occurs.

Thank you for your time and please be careful out there!!!

, BS, EMT/P

DFW Airpor DPS

SEE YOU IN AUSTIN!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Body Armor - Maybe

Guns - NO!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I know that one time I transported a law enforcement official that was armed.

He had a partner ride in as well, the partner secured the weapon.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Sorry, . I should have put quotes around " swatmedic " , or maybe used

" RamboMedic " . Tactical medics are the best professional medics under the worst

of circumstances, no degradation was intended.

Regards,

Barry E. McClung, FF/EMT-I

Canyon Lake, Texas

[] Re: Danger Situations in EMS

>Barry, I hope you're not saying that it's a SWAT medic's job to take

>lives... You're totally right about the escape and observation skills.

>

> REMT-P

>Arlington PD

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Iguess Mr. Shelton has never been on a scene either before PD or SO arrival

or had someone stick a 45 in his ear and told " if he lives, you die " . I

suppose all his scenes are safe every time the whole time he is on scene.

this happens more often than we like to think.

[] Danger Situations in EMS

>

>

>>I would like to get some input on peoples opinion

>>whether body armor and guns should be a standard issue for EMS personnel.

>>Thank for your input....Lee Arteaga EMT-I

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

I would like to clarify my position on the subject of ballistic armor in

EMS. I do believe it is entirely appropriate to wear such a vest in the

course of duty in EMS. many people mistake us for being peace officers and

the use of armor does offer some added protection. So, I say, wear it if

ya' got it. However, I still maintain that wearing a firearm is not

appropriate nor is it needed. You should always stage on a potentially

unstable scene until it is secured by law enforcement. The only exception

that I can see being made to this rule has to do with a provider also being

a commissioned peace officer who is required to carry a firearm while off

duty. In that case, the firearm should be carried but carried out of plain

sight. Furthermore, because said peace officer is functioning in the role

of EMS provider, he or she still needs to stage prior to law enforcement

arrival.

Sincerely,

J. Craig Shelton, RN, EMT-P

MCHD EMS

[] Danger Situations in EMS

>>>>I would like to get some input on peoples opinion

>>>>whether body armor and guns should be a standard issue for EMS

personnel.

>>>>Thank for your input....Lee Arteaga EMT-I

>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>Norman T. Atha

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I can see wearing armor (under the uniform shirt) in some areas (depending

on the crime, type of calls, etc.) 'Tis better to be safe than be sorry...

Around here, you don't really have that much to worry about. If I worked in

L.A., now I would be wearing it all the time.

If you are at a scene & in uniform, the bad guys care less who they shoot,

or hurt. They see uniform & badge & think cop. That is alot of their

instincts (although wrong). I have seen this happen before. This can occur

regardless of whether or not the police are there.

How many times have you worked a call and the victim or their familes start

giving the story to you like you were the police? How many times have you

had to call for police backup for violent people at the scene? The criminal

does not care who you are. They don't stop long enough to read POLICE or

EMS on your patch.

Now, I can see EMS being unarmed. Unless you are a police officer, you have

no business carrying a gun in the line of duty. The back of an ambulance

is no place for a gun. You are in a confined area, with no cover, and a

couple of ways out (but not too good of an idea if you are moving) If I am

going to be in a shootout, or in a shooting situation, I want to have as

much cover as possible, and not be trapped.

Besides all that, what happens if a bullet hits an 02 bottle?

Jay Hoskins

EMT

[] Danger Situations in EMS

>>>>I would like to get some input on peoples opinion

>>>>whether body armor and guns should be a standard issue for EMS

personnel.

>>>>Thank for your input....Lee Arteaga EMT-I

>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>Norman T. Atha

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think that if you or your department can afford the soft body armor, then

wear it. I have been with the s PD / EMS for one year now, and have

worn my vest under my uniform since it was issued to me. Trust me here

people, I live in a fairly small town here, and I will not go onto the

streets without it.

I worked at another service for 5+ years, and armor was not issued. I wish

that it had on several occasions.

There seems to be questions of mobility while wearing a vest. First off,

there are some restrictions, but on the other hand, I seem to lift better

because I pay attention to how I lift now. Yes, you can do CPR while

wearing armor....it is hot, but it can be done.

If you do decide to wear armor, my suggestion is to wear 100% cotton

t-shirts under the armor..........trust me, it works better.

And feels better.

If you decide to use on of the tactical carriers with EMS in bold

letters....that is fine, but wear the thing, don't just set it between the

seats of the unit......you will end up not having the thing on when you need

it most.

Soft Body armor is the way to go........go ask your local officers who wear

the things day in and day out.....they might pass on some trade secrets as

well, as far as comfort goes.

Another thought, contact your local law enforcement and see if they have any

of their old vests......most are usually replaced every 4 to 5 years. These

can be taken apart and put into a tactical carrier. It is better than

nothing, and will usually keep you from having to purchase a vest to start

out with.

Just my opinion.................

Irwin, EMT-P

s PD/EMS

[] Danger Situations in EMS

>>

>>

>>>I would like to get some input on peoples opinion

>>>whether body armor and guns should be a standard issue for EMS personnel.

>>>Thank for your input....Lee Arteaga EMT-I

>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>

>>>

>>>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/17/98 12:03:06 AM Central Standard Time,

bullet06@... writes:

> well, as far as comfort goes.

> Another thought, contact your local law enforcement and see if they have

any

> of their old vests......most are usually replaced every 4 to 5 years.

These

> can be taken apart and put into a tactical carrier. It is better than

> nothing, and will usually keep you from having to purchase a vest to start

> out with.

> Just my opinion.................

>

> Irwin, EMT-P

> s PD/EMS

> -----Original Message-----

Just for information,,,,,,,,,,,,most manufacturers of ballistic vests only

warrant the vest for a period of 5 years...............Be careful wearing an

old, outdated vest.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

unless you live in an area that requires you to wear such equipment, or that

you are certified (ie police/ems) to use such equipment then it doesnt need

to be on the rig with you.

randy, emtp

emt@...

[] Danger Situations in EMS

>I would like to get some input on peoples opinion

>whether body armor and guns should be a standard issue for EMS personnel.

>Thank for your input....Lee Arteaga EMT-I

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

true sir this issue was beat but its still relavant question for someone

who may be new to the server. once again something to think about then we

need to remember that scene safety should be a concern....let the ppl who

are trained to handle the situation (ie electric company, fire crew, police,

or even bomb squad) before your crews safety is compromised. how can we

even begin to help our patients if were down and injured.

<looking for the dead horse and that stick to beat him with>

randy, emtp

emt@...

[] Re: Danger Situations in EMS

>Does anybody keep a file of the disscussions?

>I think we've already hashed out the firearms thing... as I recall the

>consensus was to not carry unless it was manditory for your job as dictated

by

>your employer.

>

>The body armor issue is just plain common sense...

>Austin EMS uses ballistic plate carrier vests... essentially combat vests

with

>big reflective EMS front and back. I have a feeling that some of the

>Paramedics in town might wear police style vests under their uniforms but I

>haven't run into any...

>

>Does anyone know if TDH invited a body-armor manufacturer to the upcomming

EMS

>confrence? While probally not nessicary for many... it might wake a few

folks

>up as to the need for protection in the more violent systems.

>

>:-{)>

>Jt

>john paramedic

>austin

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is so well said that I'm hesitant to add any thing to it ... but I've

never been known to keep my mouth shut.. I'm for body armor for 911 ems

providers, not really needed for transfer service, Guns? no never. But how do

you guys feel about pepper spray? I personally am for it but not just if you

feel threatened, like they taught us at Medstar, your best defense in a

dangerous situation is your brain...

Goodman EMT-P

Nursing type student...

>===== Original Message From egroups =====

>Body Armor - Maybe

>Guns - NO!

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I would have to say absolutely no to idea of guns with EMS Personnel. As

far as Body Armor, that would be good to have available as an issue item. I

have over 23 years of street experience, and have seen a lot of changes in

this environment. While I use my " street smarts " to protect me, I sometimes

feel those that resist authority, and we have to look at it as we are

authority, are getting better " street smarts " . I have to also be realistic

in saying, how many services with limited budgets are going to be able to

provide all field employees with good body armor.

[] Danger Situations in EMS

>I would like to get some input on peoples opinion

>whether body armor and guns should be a standard issue for EMS personnel.

>Thank for your input....Lee Arteaga EMT-I

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Randy,

Thank you for sticking up for the " new kids " on the server.

[] Re: Danger Situations in EMS

>

>

>>Does anybody keep a file of the disscussions?

>>I think we've already hashed out the firearms thing... as I recall the

>>consensus was to not carry unless it was manditory for your job as

dictated

>by

>>your employer.

>>

>>The body armor issue is just plain common sense...

>>Austin EMS uses ballistic plate carrier vests... essentially combat vests

>with

>>big reflective EMS front and back. I have a feeling that some of the

>>Paramedics in town might wear police style vests under their uniforms but

I

>>haven't run into any...

>>

>>Does anyone know if TDH invited a body-armor manufacturer to the upcomming

>EMS

>>confrence? While probally not nessicary for many... it might wake a few

>folks

>>up as to the need for protection in the more violent systems.

>>

>>:-{)>

>>Jt

>>john paramedic

>>austin

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Messy business, this pepper spray. It's about as subtle as a well placed 14g

Abbocath.

Lee

(I was ridin' afore Travolta knew what a cowboy was)

grg110206 wrote:

> This is so well said that I'm hesitant to add any thing to it ... but I've

> never been known to keep my mouth shut.. I'm for body armor for 911 ems

> providers, not really needed for transfer service, Guns? no never. But how do

> you guys feel about pepper spray? I personally am for it but not just if you

> feel threatened, like they taught us at Medstar, your best defense in a

> dangerous situation is your brain...

> Goodman EMT-P

> Nursing type student...

>

> >===== Original Message From egroups =====

> >Body Armor - Maybe

> >Guns - NO!

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/17/98 9:52:55 PM, you wrote:

>Messy business, this pepper spray. It's about as subtle as a well placed 14g

>Abbocath.

Messy is not quite the right word for pepper spray (or any of the combat

sprays) You go from a mean and agitated patient to a mean and agitated

patient who is also a Haz-mat...<<<groan>>>... Somebody check me on this but I

think that DPS troopers are taught one can per customer. They use the little

cans with eight (two second?) sprays... Good for eight people.

Then they drive the target to the ground with the stuff. I've been in a

smokey club when someone got maced... About half the folks had to go outside.

I doubt Spraying someone in the back of an ambulance would be a hot idea.

> A gun left alone will not hurt anyone. Only the human involvement makes >

the gun dangerous.

Loose in the back of the truck??? Wastebasket sounds like a good idea.

Somebody mentioned something about education... Even if you don't learn how to

fire one I would think that being able to 'safe' and/or unload both pistols

and automatics would be good to find out how to do.

" Don't plan for what you think your (patient) will do,

but what they a capable of doing. "

(orginaly was enemy and said be Clauswitiz)

Gene what wild stories you have...Have you ever though of writing a book on

your EMS experiences?

:-{)>

Jt

john : paramedic

austin

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I carry pepper spray on my person while on duty and consider it to be a safe

alternative to other lethal means of defense. Because we had no policy

regarding the carrying and use of 10% pepper by our providers, I had to

consult with our Operations Manager to get the O.K. to carry it. However, I

still stage on dangerous scenes.

J. Craig Shelton, RN, EMT-P

Montgomery County Hospital District EMS

[] Re: Danger Situations in EMS

>This is so well said that I'm hesitant to add any thing to it ... but I've

>never been known to keep my mouth shut.. I'm for body armor for 911 ems

>providers, not really needed for transfer service, Guns? no never. But how

do

>you guys feel about pepper spray? I personally am for it but not just if

you

>feel threatened, like they taught us at Medstar, your best defense in a

>dangerous situation is your brain...

> Goodman EMT-P

>Nursing type student...

>

>>===== Original Message From egroups =====

>>Body Armor - Maybe

>>Guns - NO!

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

I have personally been sprayed and certified in the use of OC spray in my

police academy course.. This is good stuff, and I believe it should be

carried by anyone in a dangerous line of work.. Mace is very weak compared

to this stuff, and while the back of an ambulance is not the place to spray

someone, it is excellent defense against dogs, irate cats, vicious birds,

etc.. The good thing about pepper spray is that once it dries on the

suspect, it is no longer active.. it usually takes about 5-10 min to dry,

and any type of moisture can reactivate it. DPS goes through the same type

of class as everyone else, once the suspect is down, they are taught to

discontinue use of OC, and if the OC proves ineffective, they are told to

back off and select another force option..

-Barry Greer EMT-P

[] Re: Danger Situations in EMS

>

>In a message dated 11/17/98 9:52:55 PM, you wrote:

>

>>Messy business, this pepper spray. It's about as subtle as a well placed

14g

>>Abbocath.

>

>Messy is not quite the right word for pepper spray (or any of the combat

>sprays) You go from a mean and agitated patient to a mean and agitated

>patient who is also a Haz-mat...<<<groan>>>... Somebody check me on this

but I

>think that DPS troopers are taught one can per customer. They use the

little

>cans with eight (two second?) sprays... Good for eight people.

>Then they drive the target to the ground with the stuff. I've been in a

>smokey club when someone got maced... About half the folks had to go

outside.

>I doubt Spraying someone in the back of an ambulance would be a hot idea.

>

>

>> A gun left alone will not hurt anyone. Only the human involvement makes >

>the gun dangerous.

>

>Loose in the back of the truck??? Wastebasket sounds like a good idea.

>Somebody mentioned something about education... Even if you don't learn how

to

>fire one I would think that being able to 'safe' and/or unload both pistols

>and automatics would be good to find out how to do.

>

> " Don't plan for what you think your (patient) will do,

> but what they a capable of doing. "

>

>(orginaly was enemy and said be Clauswitiz)

>

>Gene what wild stories you have...Have you ever though of writing a book on

>your EMS experiences?

>

>:-{)>

>Jt

>john : paramedic

>austin

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>