Re: OT: Link to Iceman information and DVD

[Guest guest]

I found this info about Ice Man and Lyme...

Jim

This is a incredible story in National Geographics about the autopsy done on the

5000 year old Ice Man was found to have Lyme Disease.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/11/iceman-autopsy/hall-text

Unfrozen

There was only one way scientists could unlock the mystery of the famous

Iceman. Take away his ice.

By S. Hall

Photograph by

Shortly after 6 p.m. on a drizzling, dreary November day in 2010, two

men dressed in green surgical scrubs opened the door of the Iceman's

chamber in the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology in Bolzano, Italy.

They slid the frozen body onto a stainless steel gurney. One of the men was a

young scientist named Marco Samadelli.

Normally, it was his job to keep the famous Neolithic mummy frozen under the

precise conditions that had preserved it for 5,300 years, following an attack

that had left the Iceman dead, high on a nearby mountain.

On this day, however, Samadelli had raised the temperature in the museum's tiny

laboratory room to 18°C64°F.

With Samadelli was a local pathologist with a trim mustache named Eduard

Egarter Vigl, known informally as the Iceman's " family doctor. "

While Egarter Vigl poked and prodded the body with knowing, sometimes brusque

familiarity, a handful of other scientists and doctors gathered around in the

cramped space, preparing to do the unthinkable: defrost the Iceman.

The next day, in a burst of hurried surgical interventions as urgent as any

operation on a living person, they would perform the first full-scale autopsy on

the thawed body, hoping to shed new light on the

mystery of who the Iceman really was and how he had died such a violent

death.

Egarter Vigl and Samadelli carefully transferred the body to a custom-made box

lined with sterilized aluminum foil. In its frozen state, the Iceman's deep

caramel skin had a dignified luster, reminiscent of a medieval figure painted in

egg tempera.

With the agonized reach of his rigid left arm and the crucifixate tilt of his

crossed feet, the defrosting mummy struck a pose that wouldn't look out of place

in a 14th-century altarpiece.

Within moments, beads of water, like anxious sweat, began to form on his body.

One droplet trickled down his chin with the slow inevitability of a tear.

This was not the first time that the Iceman had been subject to intense

scientific scrutiny.

After Austrian authorities first recovered the mummy in 1991,scientists in

Innsbruck cut a large gash across his lower torso as part of their initial

investigation, along with other incisions in his back, at the top of the skull,

and on his legs.

It was later determined that the shallow conch of gray rock where he had been

found was on the Italian side of the border with Austria, so the body and the

artifacts surrounding it were relocated to Bolzano.

Over the years, numerous less invasive explorations of the remains were

conducted there, including x-ray and CT scan imaging studies and an analysis of

the mummy's mitochondrial DNA.

The most astonishing revelation came in 2001, when a local radiologist named

Gostner noticed a detail that had been overlooked in the images:

an arrowhead buried in the Iceman's left shoulder, indicating that he had been

shot from behind.

Later work by Gostner and his colleagues with more powerful CT imaging devices

revealed that the arrow had pierced a major artery in the thoracic cavity,

causing a hemorrhage that would have been almost immediately fatal.

The oldest accidentally preserved human ever found was the victim

of a brutally efficient murder.

Other scientists filled in biographical details. Analysis of chemical

traces in his bones and teeth indicated that Ötzi, as he is also

called, grew up northeast of Bolzano, possibly in the Isarco River

Valley, and spent his adulthood in the Venosta Valley.

Pollen found in his body placed his final hours in the springtime, and his last

hike probably along a path up the Senales Valley toward an alpine pass just west

of the Similaun Glacier.

Close examination of his hand revealed a partially healed injury, suggestive of

a defensive wound from an earlier fight.

DNA analysis of food remnants found in his intestines, his stomach appeared to

be empty indicated that sometime before he met his demise, he had eaten red meat

and some sort of wheat.

Putting these facts together, scientists theorized that adversaries had an

altercation with the Iceman in the valley south of the pass, chased him, and

caught up with him on the mountain, where the body was discovered more than

5,000 years later.

It was a good story that fit the evidence until Gostner took a

closer look at the Iceman's guts.

Though he had retired, the radiologist kept studying the CT scans at home as a

kind of hobby, and in 2009 he became convinced that scientists had mistaken the

Iceman's empty colon for his stomach, which had been pushed up under his rib

cage and appeared to Gostner to be full.

If he was right, it meant the Iceman had eaten a large, and presumably

leisurely, meal minutes before his death not the sort of thing someone being

chased by armed enemies would likely do.

" Gostner came over and told us he thought the stomach was full, " said

Albert Zink, director of the EURAC Institute for Mummies and the Iceman

in Bolzano, who oversaw the autopsy last November.

" And we thought, OK, then we have to go inside and sample the stomach. "

After further thought, Zink and his colleagues drew up a more ambitious plan: a

head-to-toe investigation involving seven separate teams of surgeons,

pathologists, microbiologists, and technicians.

Perhaps most remarkable, this choreographed intervention would be accomplished

without making any new incisions in the Iceman's body.

Instead, the scientists would enter the body through the " Austrian windows " their

name for the overenthusiastic cuts made by the initial investigators.

" This will happen once, " Zink said, " and then never again for many, many

years. "

" This is the brain, " announced neurosurgeon s Schwarz, as he

maneuvered a neurological endoscope into the top of the Iceman's head.

Like the other scientists in the room, Schwarz was wearing 3-D glasses,

and as he inched the instrument deeper inside the skull, a blurry 3-D

image appeared on a computer monitor.

It was a little after 1 p.m., and by that point the Iceman had already undergone

six hours of poking, probing, gouging, and sample gathering.

The surgical teams had taken snippets of muscle and lung. They had bored a hole

in his pelvis to collect bone tissue for DNA analysis.

They had rummaged around his thorax, trying to get close to the arrowhead and

the tissue around it.

They had even plucked some of his pubic hair. His skin had lost its

luster and had a dull, leathery look, like a chicken wing left in the

freezer too long.

Now they were peeking inside his brain to see if a mysterious shadow on

a previous CT image might be an internal clot, or hematoma, at the rear

of the skull, indicating a blow to the head. But the operation was not

going smoothly.

Schwarz's endoscope kept bumping into ice crystals that blurred the camera lens.

After an hour, the neurosurgery team finished up, not entirely sure whether they

had obtained a viable sample.

The initial attempts to explore the stomach were also frustrating.

Malfertheiner, of the Otto-von-Guericke University of Magdeburg, tried to

insinuate an endoscope down the Iceman's throat into the stomach, but five

millennia of atrophy and mummification blocked the way. Egarter Vigl stepped in

with a less delicate approach.

Using the large Austrian window at the lower end of the torso, he stuck a gloved

hand into the Iceman's gut.

He pulled out two large chunks of undigested food, then switched to a kitchen

spoon and scooped several more ounces from the Iceman's very full stomach.

By the end of the day, the laboratory freezer brimmed with 149

biological samples " enough for about 50 papers, " quipped one of the

biologists. As soon as the autopsy concluded, Samadelli lowered the

temperature in the laboratory below freezing.

The next morning he and Egarter Vigl spruced up the body with a fine spray of

sterilized water, which froze on contact. Then they slid the Iceman back into

his high-tech igloo and closed the door.

The autopsy had taken about nine hours; analysis of the material gleaned

will take years. The first revelations were disclosed in June, when Zink

and his colleagues presented some of their initial findings at a

scientific meeting.

Thanks to the DNA in a tiny speck of pelvic bone culled during the autopsy, the

Iceman has joined the company of renowned biologists D. and J.

Craig Venter as one of a handful of humans whose genomes have been sequenced in

exquisite detail.

The genetic results add both information and intrigue. From his genes,

we now know that the Iceman had brown hair and brown eyes and that he

was probably lactose intolerant and thus could not digest milk somewhat ironic,

given theories that he was a shepherd.

Not surprisingly, he is more related to people living in southern Europe today

than to those in North Africa or the Middle East, with close connections to

geographically isolated modern populations in Sardinia,Sicily, and the Iberian

Peninsula.

The DNA analysis also revealed several genetic variants that placed the Iceman

at high risk for hardening of the arteries.

( " If he hadn't been shot, " Zink remarked, " he probably would have died of a

heart attack or stroke in ten years. " )

Perhaps most surprising, researchers found the genetic footprint of

bacteria known as Borrelia burgdorferi in his DNA making the Iceman

the earliest known human infected by the bug that causes Lyme disease.

The autopsy results have also rewritten the story of the Iceman's final

moments.

The neuroscientists determined that blood had indeed accumulated at the back of

the Iceman's brain, suggesting some sort of traumaeither from falling on his

face from the force of the arrow, Zink speculated, or perhaps from a coup de

grâce administered by his assailant.

DNA analysis of the final meal is ongoing, but one thing is already clear: It

was greasy.

Initial tests indicate the presence of fatty, baconlike meat of a kind of wild

goat called an alpine ibex. " He really must have had a heavy meal at the end, "

Zink saida fact that undermines the notion that he was fleeing in fear.

Instead, it appears he was resting in a spot protected from the wind, tranquilly

digesting his meal, unaware of the danger he was in.

And of course, unaware of the intense attention awaiting him far in the

future. The Iceman might be the most exposed and invaded person who ever

walked the planet.

" There were moments yesterday, " Zink said in a soft, almost surprised voice,

" when you felt sorry for him. He was soâ…âexplored. All his secretsinside him,

outside him, all around him were open to exploration. "

He paused and added, " Only the arrowhead remains inside him, as if he's saying,

This is my last secret. "

S. Hall last visited the Iceman in the July 2007 issue of the

magazine. is a frequent contributor.

His most recent story, " The Genius of the Inca, " appeared in April 2011. Iceman

Murder Mystery, a new NOVANational Geographic Special, airs Wednesday, October

26, on PBS; check local listings.

© 2011 National Geographic Society.

>

> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/iceman-murder-mystery.html

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Jim,

They are able to find thisinfection withthe DNA finger prin ton a momy and unable to test patients correctly .

Funny is nt it ?

Kindly Marie

To: Lyme_and_Rife Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 8:41 PMSubject: Re: OT: Link to Iceman information and DVD

I found this info about Ice Man and Lyme...JimThis is a incredible story in National Geographics about the autopsy done on the 5000 year old Ice Man was found to have Lyme Disease.http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/11/iceman-autopsy/hall-textUnfrozenThere was only one way scientists could unlock the mystery of the famousIceman. Take away his ice.By S. HallPhotograph by Shortly after 6 p.m. on a drizzling, dreary November day in 2010, twomen dressed in green surgical scrubs opened the door of the Iceman'schamber in the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology in Bolzano, Italy.They slid the frozen body onto a stainless steel gurney. One of the men was a young scientist named Marco Samadelli.Normally, it was his job to keep the famous Neolithic mummy frozen under the precise conditions that had preserved it for 5,300 years,

following an attack that had left the Iceman dead, high on a nearby mountain.On this day, however, Samadelli had raised the temperature in the museum's tiny laboratory room to 18°C64°F.With Samadelli was a local pathologist with a trim mustache named EduardEgarter Vigl, known informally as the Iceman's "family doctor."While Egarter Vigl poked and prodded the body with knowing, sometimes brusque familiarity, a handful of other scientists and doctors gathered around in the cramped space, preparing to do the unthinkable: defrost the Iceman.The next day, in a burst of hurried surgical interventions as urgent as any operation on a living person, they would perform the first full-scale autopsy on the thawed body, hoping to shed new light on themystery of who the Iceman really was and how he had died such a violentdeath.Egarter Vigl and Samadelli carefully transferred the body to a custom-made

box lined with sterilized aluminum foil. In its frozen state, the Iceman's deep caramel skin had a dignified luster, reminiscent of a medieval figure painted in egg tempera.With the agonized reach of his rigid left arm and the crucifixate tilt of his crossed feet, the defrosting mummy struck a pose that wouldn't look out of place in a 14th-century altarpiece.Within moments, beads of water, like anxious sweat, began to form on his body. One droplet trickled down his chin with the slow inevitability of a tear.This was not the first time that the Iceman had been subject to intensescientific scrutiny.After Austrian authorities first recovered the mummy in 1991,scientists in Innsbruck cut a large gash across his lower torso as part of their initial investigation, along with other incisions in his back, at the top of the skull, and on his legs.It was later determined that the shallow conch of gray rock where he

had been found was on the Italian side of the border with Austria, so the body and the artifacts surrounding it were relocated to Bolzano.Over the years, numerous less invasive explorations of the remains were conducted there, including x-ray and CT scan imaging studies and an analysis of the mummy's mitochondrial DNA.The most astonishing revelation came in 2001, when a local radiologist named Gostner noticed a detail that had been overlooked in the images:an arrowhead buried in the Iceman's left shoulder, indicating that he had been shot from behind.Later work by Gostner and his colleagues with more powerful CT imaging devices revealed that the arrow had pierced a major artery in the thoracic cavity, causing a hemorrhage that would have been almost immediately fatal.The oldest accidentally preserved human ever found was the victimof a brutally efficient murder.Other scientists filled in

biographical details. Analysis of chemicaltraces in his bones and teeth indicated that Ötzi, as he is alsocalled, grew up northeast of Bolzano, possibly in the Isarco RiverValley, and spent his adulthood in the Venosta Valley.Pollen found in his body placed his final hours in the springtime, and his last hike probably along a path up the Senales Valley toward an alpine pass just west of the Similaun Glacier.Close examination of his hand revealed a partially healed injury, suggestive of a defensive wound from an earlier fight.DNA analysis of food remnants found in his intestines, his stomach appeared to be empty indicated that sometime before he met his demise, he had eaten red meat and some sort of wheat.Putting these facts together, scientists theorized that adversaries had an altercation with the Iceman in the valley south of the pass, chased him, and caught up with him on the mountain, where

the body was discovered more than 5,000 years later.It was a good story that fit the evidence until Gostner took acloser look at the Iceman's guts.Though he had retired, the radiologist kept studying the CT scans at home as a kind of hobby, and in 2009 he became convinced that scientists had mistaken the Iceman's empty colon for his stomach, which had been pushed up under his rib cage and appeared to Gostner to be full.If he was right, it meant the Iceman had eaten a large, and presumably leisurely, meal minutes before his death not the sort of thing someone being chased by armed enemies would likely do."Gostner came over and told us he thought the stomach was full," saidAlbert Zink, director of the EURAC Institute for Mummies and the Icemanin Bolzano, who oversaw the autopsy last November."And we thought, OK, then we have to go inside and sample the stomach."After further thought,

Zink and his colleagues drew up a more ambitious plan: a head-to-toe investigation involving seven separate teams of surgeons, pathologists, microbiologists, and technicians.Perhaps most remarkable, this choreographed intervention would be accomplished without making any new incisions in the Iceman's body.Instead, the scientists would enter the body through the "Austrian windows"their name for the overenthusiastic cuts made by the initial investigators."This will happen once," Zink said, "and then never again for many, manyyears.""This is the brain," announced neurosurgeon s Schwarz, as hemaneuvered a neurological endoscope into the top of the Iceman's head.Like the other scientists in the room, Schwarz was wearing 3-D glasses,and as he inched the instrument deeper inside the skull, a blurry 3-Dimage appeared on a computer monitor.It was a little after 1 p.m., and by

that point the Iceman had already undergone six hours of poking, probing, gouging, and sample gathering.The surgical teams had taken snippets of muscle and lung. They had bored a hole in his pelvis to collect bone tissue for DNA analysis.They had rummaged around his thorax, trying to get close to the arrowhead and the tissue around it.They had even plucked some of his pubic hair. His skin had lost itsluster and had a dull, leathery look, like a chicken wing left in thefreezer too long.Now they were peeking inside his brain to see if a mysterious shadow ona previous CT image might be an internal clot, or hematoma, at the rearof the skull, indicating a blow to the head. But the operation was notgoing smoothly.Schwarz's endoscope kept bumping into ice crystals that blurred the camera lens. After an hour, the neurosurgery team finished up, not entirely sure whether they had

obtained a viable sample.The initial attempts to explore the stomach were also frustrating. Malfertheiner, of the Otto-von-Guericke University of Magdeburg, tried to insinuate an endoscope down the Iceman's throat into the stomach, but five millennia of atrophy and mummification blocked the way. Egarter Vigl stepped in with a less delicate approach.Using the large Austrian window at the lower end of the torso, he stuck a gloved hand into the Iceman's gut.He pulled out two large chunks of undigested food, then switched to a kitchen spoon and scooped several more ounces from the Iceman's very full stomach.By the end of the day, the laboratory freezer brimmed with 149biological samples "enough for about 50 papers," quipped one of thebiologists. As soon as the autopsy concluded, Samadelli lowered thetemperature in the laboratory below freezing.The next morning he and Egarter Vigl

spruced up the body with a fine spray of sterilized water, which froze on contact. Then they slid the Iceman back into his high-tech igloo and closed the door.The autopsy had taken about nine hours; analysis of the material gleanedwill take years. The first revelations were disclosed in June, when Zinkand his colleagues presented some of their initial findings at ascientific meeting.Thanks to the DNA in a tiny speck of pelvic bone culled during the autopsy, the Iceman has joined the company of renowned biologists D. and J. Craig Venter as one of a handful of humans whose genomes have been sequenced in exquisite detail.The genetic results add both information and intrigue. From his genes,we now know that the Iceman had brown hair and brown eyes and that hewas probably lactose intolerant and thus could not digest milk somewhat ironic, given theories that he was a

shepherd.Not surprisingly, he is more related to people living in southern Europe today than to those in North Africa or the Middle East, with close connections to geographically isolated modern populations in Sardinia,Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula.The DNA analysis also revealed several genetic variants that placed the Iceman at high risk for hardening of the arteries.("If he hadn't been shot," Zink remarked, "he probably would have died of a heart attack or stroke in ten years.")Perhaps most surprising, researchers found the genetic footprint ofbacteria known as Borrelia burgdorferi in his DNA making the Icemanthe earliest known human infected by the bug that causes Lyme disease.The autopsy results have also rewritten the story of the Iceman's finalmoments.The neuroscientists determined that blood had indeed accumulated at the back of the Iceman's brain, suggesting some sort of

traumaeither from falling on his face from the force of the arrow, Zink speculated, or perhaps from a coup de grâce administered by his assailant.DNA analysis of the final meal is ongoing, but one thing is already clear: It was greasy.Initial tests indicate the presence of fatty, baconlike meat of a kind of wild goat called an alpine ibex. "He really must have had a heavy meal at the end," Zink saida fact that undermines the notion that he was fleeing in fear.Instead, it appears he was resting in a spot protected from the wind, tranquilly digesting his meal, unaware of the danger he was in.And of course, unaware of the intense attention awaiting him far in thefuture. The Iceman might be the most exposed and invaded person who everwalked the planet."There were moments yesterday," Zink said in a soft, almost surprised voice, "when you felt sorry for him. He was soâ…âexplored. All his

secretsinside him, outside him, all around him were open to exploration. "He paused and added, "Only the arrowhead remains inside him, as if he's saying, This is my last secret." S. Hall last visited the Iceman in the July 2007 issue of themagazine. is a frequent contributor.His most recent story,"The Genius of the Inca," appeared in April 2011. Iceman Murder Mystery, a new NOVANational Geographic Special, airs Wednesday, October 26, on PBS; check local listings.© 2011 National Geographic Society.>> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/iceman-murder-mystery.html>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for posting the story. It was very interesting. I'm with though. They have such a hard time with blood tests on Lyme patients today, but they found it 5 thousand years later in this mummy.There's many mysteries unsolved. The bacteria was probably around back then but the lyme island scientist discovered a way to make it stronger perhaps.Anyway, I wish they would do more research on this disease. So many sick people and so many ignorant doctors.Thanks again,Donna RatliffSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerrySender: Lyme_and_Rife Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 00:41:06 -0000To: <Lyme_and_Rife >ReplyTo: Lyme_and_Rife Subject: Re: OT: Link to Iceman information and DVD I found this info about Ice Man and Lyme...JimThis is a incredible story in National Geographics about the autopsy done on the 5000 year old Ice Man was found to have Lyme Disease.http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/11/iceman-autopsy/hall-textUnfrozenThere was only one way scientists could unlock the mystery of the famousIceman. Take away his ice.By S. HallPhotograph by Shortly after 6 p.m. on a drizzling, dreary November day in 2010, twomen dressed in green surgical scrubs opened the door of the Iceman'schamber in the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology in Bolzano, Italy.They slid the frozen body onto a stainless steel gurney. One of the men was a young scientist named Marco Samadelli.Normally, it was his job to keep the famous Neolithic mummy frozen under the precise conditions that had preserved it for 5,300 years, following an attack that had left the Iceman dead, high on a nearby mountain.On this day, however, Samadelli had raised the temperature in the museum's tiny laboratory room to 18°C64°F.With Samadelli was a local pathologist with a trim mustache named EduardEgarter Vigl, known informally as the Iceman's " family doctor. " While Egarter Vigl poked and prodded the body with knowing, sometimes brusque familiarity, a handful of other scientists and doctors gathered around in the cramped space, preparing to do the unthinkable: defrost the Iceman.The next day, in a burst of hurried surgical interventions as urgent as any operation on a living person, they would perform the first full-scale autopsy on the thawed body, hoping to shed new light on themystery of who the Iceman really was and how he had died such a violentdeath.Egarter Vigl and Samadelli carefully transferred the body to a custom-made box lined with sterilized aluminum foil. In its frozen state, the Iceman's deep caramel skin had a dignified luster, reminiscent of a medieval figure painted in egg tempera.With the agonized reach of his rigid left arm and the crucifixate tilt of his crossed feet, the defrosting mummy struck a pose that wouldn't look out of place in a 14th-century altarpiece.Within moments, beads of water, like anxious sweat, began to form on his body. One droplet trickled down his chin with the slow inevitability of a tear.This was not the first time that the Iceman had been subject to intensescientific scrutiny.After Austrian authorities first recovered the mummy in 1991,scientists in Innsbruck cut a large gash across his lower torso as part of their initial investigation, along with other incisions in his back, at the top of the skull, and on his legs.It was later determined that the shallow conch of gray rock where he had been found was on the Italian side of the border with Austria, so the body and the artifacts surrounding it were relocated to Bolzano.Over the years, numerous less invasive explorations of the remains were conducted there, including x-ray and CT scan imaging studies and an analysis of the mummy's mitochondrial DNA.The most astonishing revelation came in 2001, when a local radiologist named Gostner noticed a detail that had been overlooked in the images:an arrowhead buried in the Iceman's left shoulder, indicating that he had been shot from behind.Later work by Gostner and his colleagues with more powerful CT imaging devices revealed that the arrow had pierced a major artery in the thoracic cavity, causing a hemorrhage that would have been almost immediately fatal.The oldest accidentally preserved human ever found was the victimof a brutally efficient murder.Other scientists filled in biographical details. Analysis of chemicaltraces in his bones and teeth indicated that Ötzi, as he is alsocalled, grew up northeast of Bolzano, possibly in the Isarco RiverValley, and spent his adulthood in the Venosta Valley.Pollen found in his body placed his final hours in the springtime, and his last hike probably along a path up the Senales Valley toward an alpine pass just west of the Similaun Glacier.Close examination of his hand revealed a partially healed injury, suggestive of a defensive wound from an earlier fight.DNA analysis of food remnants found in his intestines, his stomach appeared to be empty indicated that sometime before he met his demise, he had eaten red meat and some sort of wheat.Putting these facts together, scientists theorized that adversaries had an altercation with the Iceman in the valley south of the pass, chased him, and caught up with him on the mountain, where the body was discovered more than 5,000 years later.It was a good story that fit the evidence until Gostner took acloser look at the Iceman's guts.Though he had retired, the radiologist kept studying the CT scans at home as a kind of hobby, and in 2009 he became convinced that scientists had mistaken the Iceman's empty colon for his stomach, which had been pushed up under his rib cage and appeared to Gostner to be full.If he was right, it meant the Iceman had eaten a large, and presumably leisurely, meal minutes before his death not the sort of thing someone being chased by armed enemies would likely do. " Gostner came over and told us he thought the stomach was full, " saidAlbert Zink, director of the EURAC Institute for Mummies and the Icemanin Bolzano, who oversaw the autopsy last November. " And we thought, OK, then we have to go inside and sample the stomach. " After further thought, Zink and his colleagues drew up a more ambitious plan: a head-to-toe investigation involving seven separate teams of surgeons, pathologists, microbiologists, and technicians.Perhaps most remarkable, this choreographed intervention would be accomplished without making any new incisions in the Iceman's body.Instead, the scientists would enter the body through the " Austrian windows " their name for the overenthusiastic cuts made by the initial investigators. " This will happen once, " Zink said, " and then never again for many, manyyears. " " This is the brain, " announced neurosurgeon s Schwarz, as hemaneuvered a neurological endoscope into the top of the Iceman's head.Like the other scientists in the room, Schwarz was wearing 3-D glasses,and as he inched the instrument deeper inside the skull, a blurry 3-Dimage appeared on a computer monitor.It was a little after 1 p.m., and by that point the Iceman had already undergone six hours of poking, probing, gouging, and sample gathering.The surgical teams had taken snippets of muscle and lung. They had bored a hole in his pelvis to collect bone tissue for DNA analysis.They had rummaged around his thorax, trying to get close to the arrowhead and the tissue around it.They had even plucked some of his pubic hair. His skin had lost itsluster and had a dull, leathery look, like a chicken wing left in thefreezer too long.Now they were peeking inside his brain to see if a mysterious shadow ona previous CT image might be an internal clot, or hematoma, at the rearof the skull, indicating a blow to the head. But the operation was notgoing smoothly.Schwarz's endoscope kept bumping into ice crystals that blurred the camera lens. After an hour, the neurosurgery team finished up, not entirely sure whether they had obtained a viable sample.The initial attempts to explore the stomach were also frustrating. Malfertheiner, of the Otto-von-Guericke University of Magdeburg, tried to insinuate an endoscope down the Iceman's throat into the stomach, but five millennia of atrophy and mummification blocked the way. Egarter Vigl stepped in with a less delicate approach.Using the large Austrian window at the lower end of the torso, he stuck a gloved hand into the Iceman's gut.He pulled out two large chunks of undigested food, then switched to a kitchen spoon and scooped several more ounces from the Iceman's very full stomach.By the end of the day, the laboratory freezer brimmed with 149biological samples " enough for about 50 papers, " quipped one of thebiologists. As soon as the autopsy concluded, Samadelli lowered thetemperature in the laboratory below freezing.The next morning he and Egarter Vigl spruced up the body with a fine spray of sterilized water, which froze on contact. Then they slid the Iceman back into his high-tech igloo and closed the door.The autopsy had taken about nine hours; analysis of the material gleanedwill take years. The first revelations were disclosed in June, when Zinkand his colleagues presented some of their initial findings at ascientific meeting.Thanks to the DNA in a tiny speck of pelvic bone culled during the autopsy, the Iceman has joined the company of renowned biologists D. and J. Craig Venter as one of a handful of humans whose genomes have been sequenced in exquisite detail.The genetic results add both information and intrigue. From his genes,we now know that the Iceman had brown hair and brown eyes and that hewas probably lactose intolerant and thus could not digest milk somewhat ironic, given theories that he was a shepherd.Not surprisingly, he is more related to people living in southern Europe today than to those in North Africa or the Middle East, with close connections to geographically isolated modern populations in Sardinia,Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula.The DNA analysis also revealed several genetic variants that placed the Iceman at high risk for hardening of the arteries.( " If he hadn't been shot, " Zink remarked, " he probably would have died of a heart attack or stroke in ten years. " )Perhaps most surprising, researchers found the genetic footprint ofbacteria known as Borrelia burgdorferi in his DNA making the Icemanthe earliest known human infected by the bug that causes Lyme disease.The autopsy results have also rewritten the story of the Iceman's finalmoments.The neuroscientists determined that blood had indeed accumulated at the back of the Iceman's brain, suggesting some sort of traumaeither from falling on his face from the force of the arrow, Zink speculated, or perhaps from a coup de grâce administered by his assailant.DNA analysis of the final meal is ongoing, but one thing is already clear: It was greasy.Initial tests indicate the presence of fatty, baconlike meat of a kind of wild goat called an alpine ibex. " He really must have had a heavy meal at the end, " Zink saida fact that undermines the notion that he was fleeing in fear.Instead, it appears he was resting in a spot protected from the wind, tranquilly digesting his meal, unaware of the danger he was in.And of course, unaware of the intense attention awaiting him far in thefuture. The Iceman might be the most exposed and invaded person who everwalked the planet. " There were moments yesterday, " Zink said in a soft, almost surprised voice, " when you felt sorry for him. He was soâ…âexplored. All his secretsinside him, outside him, all around him were open to exploration. " He paused and added, " Only the arrowhead remains inside him, as if he's saying, This is my last secret. " S. Hall last visited the Iceman in the July 2007 issue of themagazine. is a frequent contributor.His most recent story, " The Genius of the Inca, " appeared in April 2011. Iceman Murder Mystery, a new NOVANational Geographic Special, airs Wednesday, October 26, on PBS; check local listings.© 2011 National Geographic Society.>> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/iceman-murder-mystery.html>

[Guest guest]

Hi there, have been off for a little but have followed the posts. Hubby is for a medical work up in hospital. At least the docs were open to lyme but yesterday, it came down to textbook and of course the clinical dx is MS BUT they cant categorize him for any of the MS subtypes....really?! Thats a shocker doctor. It comes down to this, as long as the medical establishment is micro managed and corrupted by pharma, insurance comps, and boards like the idsa, this will continue to happen. Hubby wanted them to even do a brain biopsy but thats too much of a risk. Lets face it physicians are no longer masters of their profession, they are told, molded, and have to go with what they know or dont know for that matter. Cure is not desirable anymore, causes are secondary,they dont make money. This is the world we sadly live in; its up to groups like us to fight for ourselves. My darling husband took the" news" rather light cause, oh well, its nothing we didnt hear before. Alternatives it is. Maybe one fine day justice will be served!And yes, as a microbiologist this is really hard to swallow down all the time: physicians usually dont like to be told that they are puppets....;0)Funny how it is ok for a mummy to have had lyme but not for anyone today. The ignorance is insane and I will never get over it! My former neurobiology professor talked to me yesterday and he summed it up:once medicine found ways to get imaging of organs, medicine shifted from curious to caution, from lets find causes to we have non-invasive diagnostic tools now and we make them clinical tools. You see, for MS dx all it needs is lesions in white matter around cortex and so forth spinal tabs are now the non-clinical findings and not needed to make the dx. Simple enough isnt it? Makes medicine easy and have boxes we can stuff people in...Sorry, I am letting steam out, I am just so disgusted!To the beautiful lady whose sister is nothing short of nasty. I am sorry, very sorry. I cant even fathom this woman's comments!Be blessed all of you lovely people, BiancaConnected by DROID on Verizon Wirelessl Re: Re: OT: Link to Iceman information and DVD Thank you for posting the story. It was very interesting. I'm with though. They have such a hard time with blood tests on Lyme patients today, but they found it 5 thousand years later in this mummy.There's many mysteries unsolved. The bacteria was probably around back then but the lyme island scientist discovered a way to make it stronger perhaps.Anyway, I wish they would do more research on this disease. So many sick people and so many ignorant doctors.Thanks again,Donna RatliffSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerrySender: Lyme_and_Rife Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 00:41:06 -0000To: <Lyme_and_Rife >ReplyTo: Lyme_and_Rife Subject: Re: OT: Link to Iceman information and DVD I found this info about Ice Man and Lyme...JimThis is a incredible story in National Geographics about the autopsy done on the 5000 year old Ice Man was found to have Lyme Disease.http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/11/iceman-autopsy/hall-textUnfrozenThere was only one way scientists could unlock the mystery of the famousIceman. Take away his ice.By S. HallPhotograph by Shortly after 6 p.m. on a drizzling, dreary November day in 2010, twomen dressed in green surgical scrubs opened the door of the Iceman'schamber in the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology in Bolzano, Italy.They slid the frozen body onto a stainless steel gurney. One of the men was a young scientist named Marco Samadelli.Normally, it was his job to keep the famous Neolithic mummy frozen under the precise conditions that had preserved it for 5,300 years, following an attack that had left the Iceman dead, high on a nearby mountain.On this day, however, Samadelli had raised the temperature in the museum's tiny laboratory room to 18°C64°F.With Samadelli was a local pathologist with a trim mustache named EduardEgarter Vigl, known informally as the Iceman's " family doctor. " While Egarter Vigl poked and prodded the body with knowing, sometimes brusque familiarity, a handful of other scientists and doctors gathered around in the cramped space, preparing to do the unthinkable: defrost the Iceman.The next day, in a burst of hurried surgical interventions as urgent as any operation on a living person, they would perform the first full-scale autopsy on the thawed body, hoping to shed new light on themystery of who the Iceman really was and how he had died such a violentdeath.Egarter Vigl and Samadelli carefully transferred the body to a custom-made box lined with sterilized aluminum foil. In its frozen state, the Iceman's deep caramel skin had a dignified luster, reminiscent of a medieval figure painted in egg tempera.With the agonized reach of his rigid left arm and the crucifixate tilt of his crossed feet, the defrosting mummy struck a pose that wouldn't look out of place in a 14th-century altarpiece.Within moments, beads of water, like anxious sweat, began to form on his body. One droplet trickled down his chin with the slow inevitability of a tear.This was not the first time that the Iceman had been subject to intensescientific scrutiny.After Austrian authorities first recovered the mummy in 1991,scientists in Innsbruck cut a large gash across his lower torso as part of their initial investigation, along with other incisions in his back, at the top of the skull, and on his legs.It was later determined that the shallow conch of gray rock where he had been found was on the Italian side of the border with Austria, so the body and the artifacts surrounding it were relocated to Bolzano.Over the years, numerous less invasive explorations of the remains were conducted there, including x-ray and CT scan imaging studies and an analysis of the mummy's mitochondrial DNA.The most astonishing revelation came in 2001, when a local radiologist named Gostner noticed a detail that had been overlooked in the images:an arrowhead buried in the Iceman's left shoulder, indicating that he had been shot from behind.Later work by Gostner and his colleagues with more powerful CT imaging devices revealed that the arrow had pierced a major artery in the thoracic cavity, causing a hemorrhage that would have been almost immediately fatal.The oldest accidentally preserved human ever found was the victimof a brutally efficient murder.Other scientists filled in biographical details. Analysis of chemicaltraces in his bones and teeth indicated that Ötzi, as he is alsocalled, grew up northeast of Bolzano, possibly in the Isarco RiverValley, and spent his adulthood in the Venosta Valley.Pollen found in his body placed his final hours in the springtime, and his last hike probably along a path up the Senales Valley toward an alpine pass just west of the Similaun Glacier.Close examination of his hand revealed a partially healed injury, suggestive of a defensive wound from an earlier fight.DNA analysis of food remnants found in his intestines, his stomach appeared to be empty indicated that sometime before he met his demise, he had eaten red meat and some sort of wheat.Putting these facts together, scientists theorized that adversaries had an altercation with the Iceman in the valley south of the pass, chased him, and caught up with him on the mountain, where the body was discovered more than 5,000 years later.It was a good story that fit the evidence until Gostner took acloser look at the Iceman's guts.Though he had retired, the radiologist kept studying the CT scans at home as a kind of hobby, and in 2009 he became convinced that scientists had mistaken the Iceman's empty colon for his stomach, which had been pushed up under his rib cage and appeared to Gostner to be full.If he was right, it meant the Iceman had eaten a large, and presumably leisurely, meal minutes before his death not the sort of thing someone being chased by armed enemies would likely do. " Gostner came over and told us he thought the stomach was full, " saidAlbert Zink, director of the EURAC Institute for Mummies and the Icemanin Bolzano, who oversaw the autopsy last November. " And we thought, OK, then we have to go inside and sample the stomach. " After further thought, Zink and his colleagues drew up a more ambitious plan: a head-to-toe investigation involving seven separate teams of surgeons, pathologists, microbiologists, and technicians.Perhaps most remarkable, this choreographed intervention would be accomplished without making any new incisions in the Iceman's body.Instead, the scientists would enter the body through the " Austrian windows " their name for the overenthusiastic cuts made by the initial investigators. " This will happen once, " Zink said, " and then never again for many, manyyears. " " This is the brain, " announced neurosurgeon s Schwarz, as hemaneuvered a neurological endoscope into the top of the Iceman's head.Like the other scientists in the room, Schwarz was wearing 3-D glasses,and as he inched the instrument deeper inside the skull, a blurry 3-Dimage appeared on a computer monitor.It was a little after 1 p.m., and by that point the Iceman had already undergone six hours of poking, probing, gouging, and sample gathering.The surgical teams had taken snippets of muscle and lung. They had bored a hole in his pelvis to collect bone tissue for DNA analysis.They had rummaged around his thorax, trying to get close to the arrowhead and the tissue around it.They had even plucked some of his pubic hair. His skin had lost itsluster and had a dull, leathery look, like a chicken wing left in thefreezer too long.Now they were peeking inside his brain to see if a mysterious shadow ona previous CT image might be an internal clot, or hematoma, at the rearof the skull, indicating a blow to the head. But the operation was notgoing smoothly.Schwarz's endoscope kept bumping into ice crystals that blurred the camera lens. After an hour, the neurosurgery team finished up, not entirely sure whether they had obtained a viable sample.The initial attempts to explore the stomach were also frustrating. Malfertheiner, of the Otto-von-Guericke University of Magdeburg, tried to insinuate an endoscope down the Iceman's throat into the stomach, but five millennia of atrophy and mummification blocked the way. Egarter Vigl stepped in with a less delicate approach.Using the large Austrian window at the lower end of the torso, he stuck a gloved hand into the Iceman's gut.He pulled out two large chunks of undigested food, then switched to a kitchen spoon and scooped several more ounces from the Iceman's very full stomach.By the end of the day, the laboratory freezer brimmed with 149biological samples " enough for about 50 papers, " quipped one of thebiologists. As soon as the autopsy concluded, Samadelli lowered thetemperature in the laboratory below freezing.The next morning he and Egarter Vigl spruced up the body with a fine spray of sterilized water, which froze on contact. Then they slid the Iceman back into his high-tech igloo and closed the door.The autopsy had taken about nine hours; analysis of the material gleanedwill take years. The first revelations were disclosed in June, when Zinkand his colleagues presented some of their initial findings at ascientific meeting.Thanks to the DNA in a tiny speck of pelvic bone culled during the autopsy, the Iceman has joined the company of renowned biologists D. and J. Craig Venter as one of a handful of humans whose genomes have been sequenced in exquisite detail.The genetic results add both information and intrigue. From his genes,we now know that the Iceman had brown hair and brown eyes and that hewas probably lactose intolerant and thus could not digest milk somewhat ironic, given theories that he was a shepherd.Not surprisingly, he is more related to people living in southern Europe today than to those in North Africa or the Middle East, with close connections to geographically isolated modern populations in Sardinia,Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula.The DNA analysis also revealed several genetic variants that placed the Iceman at high risk for hardening of the arteries.( " If he hadn't been shot, " Zink remarked, " he probably would have died of a heart attack or stroke in ten years. " )Perhaps most surprising, researchers found the genetic footprint ofbacteria known as Borrelia burgdorferi in his DNA making the Icemanthe earliest known human infected by the bug that causes Lyme disease.The autopsy results have also rewritten the story of the Iceman's finalmoments.The neuroscientists determined that blood had indeed accumulated at the back of the Iceman's brain, suggesting some sort of traumaeither from falling on his face from the force of the arrow, Zink speculated, or perhaps from a coup de grâce administered by his assailant.DNA analysis of the final meal is ongoing, but one thing is already clear: It was greasy.Initial tests indicate the presence of fatty, baconlike meat of a kind of wild goat called an alpine ibex. " He really must have had a heavy meal at the end, " Zink saida fact that undermines the notion that he was fleeing in fear.Instead, it appears he was resting in a spot protected from the wind, tranquilly digesting his meal, unaware of the danger he was in.And of course, unaware of the intense attention awaiting him far in thefuture. The Iceman might be the most exposed and invaded person who everwalked the planet. " There were moments yesterday, " Zink said in a soft, almost surprised voice, " when you felt sorry for him. He was soâ…âexplored. All his secretsinside him, outside him, all around him were open to exploration. " He paused and added, " Only the arrowhead remains inside him, as if he's saying, This is my last secret. " S. Hall last visited the Iceman in the July 2007 issue of themagazine. is a frequent contributor.His most recent story, " The Genius of the Inca, " appeared in April 2011. Iceman Murder Mystery, a new NOVANational Geographic Special, airs Wednesday, October 26, on PBS; check local listings.© 2011 National Geographic Society.>> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/iceman-murder-mystery.html>

[Guest guest]

Hi Marie,

You bring up a good point!

They can test the DNA of a 5000 year old man and determine Lyme, yet testing for

Lyme for those of us

here now are often inaccurate... Hmmmmm......

Jim

> >

> > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/iceman-murder-mystery.html

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bianca,You are a real rip!!!  Do you really mean you can't trust the medical establishment!!  Well you sure have that right! I am really sorry to hear of your hubby's most likely mis-dx of MS... This is so common, doctors know and understand MS,

so it is easy to dx it... But Lyme, the average doctor knows so little about this disease... Let me clarify, chronic Lyme... Someare good about dxing acute Lyme... I hope you and hubby  are not too disappointed with their dx? Did you really hope somehow

it would be Lyme? I am sure you were hoping for the almost impossible.. And yes, it is sad that so many today have a dx of MS and many have shown up on these groups after years of their suspicions that they may indeed have Lyme, not MS as

their symptoms are more conducive to Lyme... And how about those who treat with rife or other alternative treatments and herx from it?Well, a herx is caused by killing pathogens, unless something has changed, MS is not a pathogen based disease..

Well your words were so well spoken about the current state of the medical system and chronic Lyme disease... And honestly,I think hubby is better off with alternatives as abx just does not seem to be the answer... So many join our group telling me

abx has failed them.. Sure some do seem to be cured with abx, my wife is one of them, but I know far more who weren't cured by them,including me...  But I do really get it would be nice if our doctors acknowledged we do have chronic Lyme if that is what

we indeed have... Do you realize now they will want to treat him for MS? Which most likely means nothing they do for him willhelp with his Lyme... Just please be very careful about any steroid treatments... These are MS treatments, never should be 

given to anyone with Lyme unless it is a life or death situation... And Bianca, please don't be disgusted over this, it just is what it is... We aren't going to change the medical world, but some day

chronic Lyme will be recognized as a major disease and not only in the US, but all over the world...At least you and hubby know the score in advance... Just think of the many who are given a dx of MS and just accept it.. Hubby

is way ahead of the game just by knowing... Take care,Jim

OT: Link to Iceman information and DVD

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Re: Re: OT: Link to Iceman information and DVD

Hi there, have been off for a little but have followed the posts. Hubby is for a medical work up in hospital. At least the docs were open to lyme but yesterday, it came down to textbook and of course the clinical dx is MS BUT they cant categorize him for any of the MS subtypes....really?! Thats a shocker doctor. 

It comes down to this, as long as the medical establishment is micro managed and corrupted by pharma, insurance comps, and boards like the idsa, this will continue to happen. Hubby wanted them to even do a brain biopsy but thats too much of a risk. Lets face it physicians are no longer masters of their profession, they are told, molded, and have to go with what they know or dont know for that matter. 

Cure is not desirable anymore, causes are secondary,they dont make money. This is the world we sadly live in; its up to groups like us to fight for ourselves. My darling husband took the " news " rather light cause, oh well, its nothing we didnt hear before. Alternatives it is. Maybe one fine day justice will be served!

And yes, as a microbiologist this is really hard to swallow down all the time: physicians usually dont like to be told that they are puppets....;0)Funny how it is ok for a mummy to have had lyme but not for anyone today. The ignorance is insane and I will never get over it! My former neurobiology professor talked to me yesterday and he summed it up:once medicine found ways to get imaging of organs, medicine shifted from curious to caution, from lets find causes to we have non-invasive diagnostic tools now and we make them clinical tools. You see, for MS dx all it needs is lesions in white matter around cortex and so forth spinal tabs are now the non-clinical findings and not needed to make the dx. Simple enough isnt it? Makes medicine easy and have boxes we can stuff people in...

Sorry, I am letting steam out, I am just so disgusted!To the beautiful lady whose sister is nothing short of nasty. I am sorry, very sorry. I cant even fathom this woman's comments!Be blessed all of you lovely people, Bianca

Connected by DROID on Verizon Wirelessl

[Guest guest]

Jim, no worries about MS meds cause 3 years ago he did intereferone once,had seizures,put on iv steroids,worked for about 4 days for relief and kaboom went down hill from there. Abx in 09 until 2010 helped but didnt fix 'it'. So even the chief of neuro said, absolutely no immuno suppressant for hubby b/c of his very adverse reactions. So hey at least they had some commonsense and we dont have to fear the MS meds.... its more like, oh how new to any Lymie, " there is no medication for some one like you..." cause his subtype of MS is atypical, so therefore no meds. Good! So I guess we have won a bit in this battle. Now, he just needs to get medically retired from military so we have more freedoms with alternative treatments.All is good all things considered. Just need to get hubby home now,away from the half gods in white ;0)Have a blessed day, BiancaConnected by DROID on Verizon Wireless Re: OT: Link to Iceman information and DVD Hi Bianca,You are a real rip!!!  Do you really mean you can't trust the medical establishment!!  Well you sure have that right! I am really sorry to hear of your hubby's most likely mis-dx of MS... This is so common, doctors know and understand MS,so it is easy to dx it... But Lyme, the average doctor knows so little about this disease... Let me clarify, chronic Lyme... Someare good about dxing acute Lyme... I hope you and hubby  are not too disappointed with their dx? Did you really hope somehowit would be Lyme? I am sure you were hoping for the almost impossible.. And yes, it is sad that so many today have a dx of MS and many have shown up on these groups after years of their suspicions that they may indeed have Lyme, not MS astheir symptoms are more conducive to Lyme... And how about those who treat with rife or other alternative treatments and herx from it?Well, a herx is caused by killing pathogens, unless something has changed, MS is not a pathogen based disease..Well your words were so well spoken about the current state of the medical system and chronic Lyme disease... And honestly,I think hubby is better off with alternatives as abx just does not seem to be the answer... So many join our group telling meabx has failed them.. Sure some do seem to be cured with abx, my wife is one of them, but I know far more who weren't cured by them,including me...  But I do really get it would be nice if our doctors acknowledged we do have chronic Lyme if that is whatwe indeed have... Do you realize now they will want to treat him for MS? Which most likely means nothing they do for him willhelp with his Lyme... Just please be very careful about any steroid treatments... These are MS treatments, never should be given to anyone with Lyme unless it is a life or death situation... And Bianca, please don't be disgusted over this, it just is what it is... We aren't going to change the medical world, but some daychronic Lyme will be recognized as a major disease and not only in the US, but all over the world...At least you and hubby know the score in advance... Just think of the many who are given a dx of MS and just accept it.. Hubbyis way ahead of the game just by knowing... Take care,JimOT: Link to Iceman information and DVD  Message List  Reply | DeleteMessage #28252 of 28263 < Prev | Next >Re: Re: OT: Link to Iceman information and DVDHi there, have been off for a little but have followed the posts. Hubby is for a medical work up in hospital. At least the docs were open to lyme but yesterday, it came down to textbook and of course the clinical dx is MS BUT they cant categorize him for any of the MS subtypes....really?! Thats a shocker doctor. It comes down to this, as long as the medical establishment is micro managed and corrupted by pharma, insurance comps, and boards like the idsa, this will continue to happen. Hubby wanted them to even do a brain biopsy but thats too much of a risk. Lets face it physicians are no longer masters of their profession, they are told, molded, and have to go with what they know or dont know for that matter. Cure is not desirable anymore, causes are secondary,they dont make money. This is the world we sadly live in; its up to groups like us to fight for ourselves. My darling husband took the " news " rather light cause, oh well, its nothing we didnt hear before. Alternatives it is. Maybe one fine day justice will be served!And yes, as a microbiologist this is really hard to swallow down all the time: physicians usually dont like to be told that they are puppets....;0)Funny how it is ok for a mummy to have had lyme but not for anyone today. The ignorance is insane and I will never get over it! My former neurobiology professor talked to me yesterday and he summed it up:once medicine found ways to get imaging of organs, medicine shifted from curious to caution, from lets find causes to we have non-invasive diagnostic tools now and we make them clinical tools. You see, for MS dx all it needs is lesions in white matter around cortex and so forth spinal tabs are now the non-clinical findings and not needed to make the dx. Simple enough isnt it? Makes medicine easy and have boxes we can stuff people in...Sorry, I am letting steam out, I am just so disgusted!To the beautiful lady whose sister is nothing short of nasty. I am sorry, very sorry. I cant even fathom this woman's comments!Be blessed all of you lovely people, BiancaConnected by DROID on Verizon Wirelessl