Re: Church stuff

[Guest guest]

This is the (church) stuff that makes us feel crazy; So, WHO gets to decide

what 'God' THINKS.

Back to basics: God loves us, unconditionally; and 'HE/SHE' will not forsake

us. This is not dependent upon whether our parents recognize that 'God'

sent us THROUGH THEM, not TO THEM. It is a matter of who they, our parents,

think they are. They, like us, are of the same power, source ... and should

humble themselves. If they fail to do that, then we are not required to follow

them. Please forgive my refusal to adhere to the historical norm of the

infallible parent.

Carol

In a message dated 10/6/2006 10:09:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

richardson20214@... writes:

in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church and BPD.

1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple setting -

unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar, they can't

get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't really

savvy.

2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the original

Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us survivors of

physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one thing

only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and had to

recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and fada

pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means not to

play along with their WORST.

If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm a pastor

at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero patience

for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

[Guest guest]

, I like what you have to say. I agree. One of my nada's

favorite lines was honor your father and mother she would forget the

other ones like a man should leave his father and mother and cleave

to his wife, or thou shall not commit adultery, or love your

neighbor as you love yourself. To her these are all just in her

way. I wish some of my friends did not lose faith as a result of my

mom but I believe we all have the right to chose our own faith and

if something like my nada was a stumbling block for them and they

use her as a crutch or excuses the faith was probably not there to

start. I agree that bp's can destroy many in the church. I saw this

first hand even as a child, the damage my nada did to the churches

name the pastors and the people in the church was awful. I always

felt bad when we had to leave I would make friends get comfy and

them yank the rug was out from under my feet. I knew the kids would

talk about it at school. The hardest was when I was friends with

this one pastors daughter and the whole family. Even to this day

when I see them they are still kind to me they know I don't talk to

my mom and they understand I had nothing to do with her. But it was

hard on me as a kid. Well anyways thanks for this post it was nice.

Love Lizzy

>

> in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church and

BPD.

> 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple setting -

> unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar, they

can't

> get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't

really

> savvy.

> 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the original

> Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us survivors

of

> physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one thing

> only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and had to

> recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and fada

> pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means not

to

> play along with their WORST.

> If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm a

pastor

> at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero

patience

> for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

>

[Guest guest]

My mom is big on church as a way I have abondoned the family. Church has

not been my thing since I was about 12 or 13 but when I was a teenager I

thought it would be interesting to compare different denominations first

hand. My home town: population 4500, 13 churches, 4 gas stations, 3 bars.

So I went church hopping. On sunday morning I would go to a different

church and I would take a friend or two who also found it interesting along

with my brother who really likes going to church. Now one of the friends

who went with me was a goth- sometimes she would even do the face makeup.

And my brother is severely disabled. He has autism and cerebral palsy and

is nearly blind. So when one walks into a church with a goth on one side

and a disabled person on the other side one tends to get noticed- its just

the way people are. Anyway it was rather interesting to compare the

different denominations- how do the episcipalians differ from the luthers

and the luthers from each other and so forth. And which people are nice?

Because some people don't like the goths/and or disabled people. Some

people are really friendly. Because my brother liked church so very much

and it was really his only social opertunity I ended up taking him to church

a couple of times a month and joining one that was near the house because it

meant a lot to him. My mom didn't like going to church because of the

social aspect. After I went off to college my mom would take him every once

in a while and then she joined and I would stop taking him because I felt I

no longer needed to.

So of course Nada says how come you don't go to church with him anymore the

church you chose for him, where the people know you and then the last time

you went you weren't polite enough and you had a wierd look on your face,

etc (I had just had an abdominal wall trigger point injection into a nerve

ending. It hurt). And of course she will either rage or go on and on and

on. And people I know from the church think she is wierd too. She

complains that no one wants to really socialise with her or my brother of

course she always assumes that this is either because 1) she is not

originally from the town and doesn't work there or 2) my brother is

disabled. Instead its usually because she isn't friendly or nice. When

people talk to her she usually has no idea who they are- and while I

understand that- I am really bad at recognizing people myself- she doesn't

make any effort to find out or admit her not knowing, she just tries to get

away as soon as possible and can be rather short with people. She also

doesn't linger after church, never goes to social events, etc. One of the

reasons is because they usually involve food and my brother is on a resisted

diet. But she can bring the food he does eat and it would provide a social

opertunity only she worries about hurting his feelings or something strange

(I don't even try and go there anymore). I get the impression that she sort

of resents social events like the annual ice cream social that do involve

food because she sort of thinks those have been designed in a way that

excludes people with special needs. And then of course she will be

disapointed no one is more social or that they ask about me but I don't go

to church or live there or something.

And then when I was growing up certain things weren't allowed because they

were " tools of the devil " . She litterally thought that if I played with a

oujie board and other things the devil could get in and possess me and so

forth. But she mellowed about the devil over the years. Though she still

thinks I am evil- she requested the one wedding picture " where I don't have

that evil look in my eyes like I normally do " . I still think that is

hilarious. She has always thought that though. I am also pagan, but as long

as I don't talk about (and she encourages me to not dicuss it with extended

family) she is fine with that.

-Ata

>

>

> This is the (church) stuff that makes us feel crazy; So, WHO gets to

> decide

> what 'God' THINKS.

>

> Back to basics: God loves us, unconditionally; and 'HE/SHE' will not

> forsake

> us. This is not dependent upon whether our parents recognize that 'God'

> sent us THROUGH THEM, not TO THEM. It is a matter of who they, our

> parents,

> think they are. They, like us, are of the same power, source ... and

> should

> humble themselves. If they fail to do that, then we are not required to

> follow

> them. Please forgive my refusal to adhere to the historical norm of the

> infallible parent.

>

> Carol

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 10/6/2006 10:09:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> richardson20214@... <richardson20214%40yahoo.com> writes:

>

> in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church and BPD.

> 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple setting -

> unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar, they can't

> get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't really

> savvy.

> 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the original

> Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us survivors of

> physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one thing

> only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and had to

> recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and fada

> pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means not to

> play along with their WORST.

> If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm a pastor

> at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero patience

> for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

>

>

[Guest guest]

I would hope a healthy religious teaching (vs. unhealthy, of which

there is way too much) is that we are first and foremost God's

children. And what God wants for us are the things that are life-

giving, not life-taking. Our own parents failed miserably at the

gifts (us) they were given. But God will work through us, our

therapists, this board!, close friends and supportive family, to

help us rebuild what our parents so badly destroyed. (Please 'scuse

the God-talk, if it's not your thing!)

Re: looking for a congregation, if that's part of your path - they

can vary highly from one to the other. Please always look for one

that welcomes and accepts you as you are, and any friends or

family. They are out there.....!

>

>

> This is the (church) stuff that makes us feel crazy; So, WHO gets

to decide

> what 'God' THINKS.

>

> Back to basics: God loves us, unconditionally; and 'HE/SHE' will

not forsake

> us. This is not dependent upon whether our parents recognize

that 'God'

> sent us THROUGH THEM, not TO THEM. It is a matter of who they,

our parents,

> think they are. They, like us, are of the same power, source ...

and should

> humble themselves. If they fail to do that, then we are not

required to follow

> them. Please forgive my refusal to adhere to the historical norm

of the

> infallible parent.

>

> Carol

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 10/6/2006 10:09:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> richardson20214@... writes:

>

> in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church and

BPD.

> 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple

setting -

> unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar, they

can't

> get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't

really

> savvy.

> 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the

original

> Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us

survivors of

> physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one thing

> only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and had

to

> recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and fada

> pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means not

to

> play along with their WORST.

> If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm a

pastor

> at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero

patience

> for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I do have a question for you - a friend of mine (his parent isn't

BPD but I believe he's NPD) recently asked me about this verse. His

mom was using it to try to get him to " honor " his father by

basically sucking it up and allowing his dad to be abusive towards

him. This friend of mine knows how I feel about bible verses being

used as manipulations (and I don't believe God meant that verse to

mean that parents can behave badly and children just have to put up

with it). I think there's a verse somewhere that actually speaks out

about how to respond towards abusive people, isn't there? I can't

remember if it's about parents directly, but maybe about anyone who

treats you badly. Any ideas?

My nada's favorite weapon has always been the church. Bible verses

as weapons, nada as " God's right hand " (i.e. if she's with God, then

she's never wrong, but everyone else is), and my absolute favorite -

whenever anyone confronts her she starts quoting verses about

unconditional forgiveness, and how to love others like God does. She

hides behind religion as a means to justify everything she does. She

has the shining reputation of splitting our home church right down

the middle - she started a rumor that a youth group leader was gay

and hitting on the boys, then started calling the parents to get him

thrown out. The elders got involved, there was blackmail and

lawsuits (the guy actually slapped her with a slander suit but then

dropped it), and the regional folks had to come in and end it. By

the time everything was over, the church split in two, the pastor

was asked to leave, and the poor youth group guy lost his day job

(as a youth counselor). All because the youth group guy decided to

be friends with my older brother, who was Satan in the eyes of nada.

Someone once said that the church shelters a lot of personality

disorders, and I have to agree with that. Like you said, they can't

be fired. Sad but true.

>

> in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church and

BPD.

> 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple setting -

> unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar, they

can't

> get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't

really

> savvy.

> 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the original

> Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us survivors

of

> physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one thing

> only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and had to

> recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and fada

> pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means not

to

> play along with their WORST.

> If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm a

pastor

> at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero

patience

> for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

>

[Guest guest]

Geez, no wonder nobody wants to go to church! I'm sorry and furious

your nada would have abused Scripture, and the church community,

that way. No, the 'honor' commandment was actually addressed to the

adult Israelites and had to do with honoring family structure - and

we can deduce, as children of horrific parents, that it means, as I

wrote earlier, honoring the healthy family structure we seek within,

through therapy, friends, our own new families, etc. To seek 'right

relationship' - that's what the commandments are about anyway, and

there's nothing 'right' about BPD.

There are many verses I can think of (and probably tons I can't,

without scanning the pages) that would steer someone toward health,

and away from abusiveness. Many of the psalms are the Israelites

crying out against all kinds of abuse, and those voices can help

us. One verse that reminds me especially of BPD is Ephesians 4:14,

helping us grow away from " people's trickery. " But the core message

of the Bible is of God's outrageous love for us, which is the most

healing thing of all. Isaiah 45: 1-4 is a good place to go for

that. Hope this helps.

> >

> > in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church and

> BPD.

> > 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple

setting -

>

> > unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar, they

> can't

> > get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't

> really

> > savvy.

> > 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the

original

> > Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us

survivors

> of

> > physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one

thing

> > only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and had

to

> > recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and fada

> > pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means

not

> to

> > play along with their WORST.

> > If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm a

> pastor

> > at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero

> patience

> > for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for the reply. I don't have an issue w/finding and explaining

scripture versus that combat this mental illness. Of that, I am quite

certain I can hold my own as someone who left the faith and then

returned. The problem that I encounter and of which I am most certain

you are aware that exists in the human condition, regardless of bp

status, is that people are often apt to follow people vs God. I mean to

say 'how does one combat the face of manipulative person saying they

respresent the faith when stuff in the Bible is thousands of years old

and seems so historical? " I don't believe it is historical- happening

2000 years ago and whatnot, but rather a living faith. Yet I don't get

the impression that everyone in my faith shares this same experience-

perhaps are more religious than spiritual and thereby being more prone

to follow a lemming like a bp off a cliff. These bps are very charming

and very flattering and so the truth of what is good and honest and

loving about my faith gets lost when someone of a weaker ego has this

sick bp stroking their ego and having them follow bp vs the faith. I

hope I'm making sense.

Okay, its like this. I think my God is a God of unification, not

division. The bp in this scenario does a great job of unifying herself

to other friends and relatives of Rita making it look like she's just

the most thoughtful, considerate and loving Christian ever. And because

she does such a good job of buttering up these other friends and family

members, even driving to see one friend a whole two hours away to

fortify her positioning in the pack (this one friend whose been friends

w/Rita for a long time and who chaulks this all up to cousin rivalry-

doesn't see the snow job bp is working on her and why would she want

to? She's got two little ones of her own to take care of and is now

living up north two hours away from all her friends here- a friend

who'd drive that far to spend the day w/her gets a check plus, ya know?

And of course Rita can't do that w/three kids- bp can w/one kid and

being Miss Popularity), no one wants to see the division she is

creating w/her cousin in isolating her cousin and destroying her

support group of friends and family. Of course no one wants to see

that. Who would in the face of such flattery and special treatment.

That is the bp's MO and it works and that's why it is so freaking hard

to combat even in a community of good wholesome people who genuinely do

seem to want what's best for their loved ones- people who have little

to no experience in dealing w/mental illness issues or suspecting such

debauchery from someone they love and value. I don't think I'd want to

see it either if I were in their shoes. It would mean I'd have to do

something and what to do w/so little time already for cultivating and

nurturing friendships w/little ones under tow. That's what's so utterly

frustrating- the ability to assess a situation, take advantage of it

and totally twist it around so that no one sees the train up ahead

coming to crash into the village below.

ugh.

Thanks again.

Kerrie

>

> in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church and BPD.

> 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple setting -

> unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar, they can't

> get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't really

> savvy.

> 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the original

> Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us survivors of

> physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one thing

> only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and had to

> recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and fada

> pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means not to

> play along with their WORST.

> If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm a pastor

> at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero patience

> for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

>

[Guest guest]

Lizzy,

Or the saying that 'It would be better that a person never be born

than to turn one of these little ones away from me.' That totally

tells me where a bp stands in light of my faith and how they treat

children and whatnot. But of course the bp finds a way to follow

whatever they want and manipulate whatever they want and take bits

and pieces here and well who doesn't, but I think they are more

concerned about self-preservation than really getting closer to God

through a faith community. They disturb the peace- the exact opposite

effect of what faith should do for a person.

K

> >

> > in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church and

> BPD.

> > 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple

setting -

>

> > unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar, they

> can't

> > get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't

> really

> > savvy.

> > 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the

original

> > Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us

survivors

> of

> > physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one thing

> > only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and had

to

> > recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and fada

> > pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means not

> to

> > play along with their WORST.

> > If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm a

> pastor

> > at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero

> patience

> > for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Carol,

I think the term is 'you're preaching the the choir' girlfriend. I

don't think anyone here believes in the notion of infallable parent

and so there's nothing to forgive. I don't even believe that for

myself and my own parenting techniques. I screw up and often times

more than I'd like to admit, but I don't have this preconceived

notion that its perfect- relationships and whatnot. Nadas hide the

shame of their imperfections in projecting onto others.

In fact I saw that the other night from Rita's cousin- a projection

covered as a sarcastic joke that made it look like Rita was the

manipulative one w/her husband and stealing him away from the

religious life when in truth, I believe they were both discerning the

call to religious life and got called to be married. The way the

cousin spun it though was like Rita stole her dh away from God and

that irritated the crap out of me and I didn't realize why at the

time. Afterwards, I realized she was projecting her own

manipulativeness onto her cousin and that of course she couldn't see

the purity and genuineness of Rita and her dh's marriage b/c that

doens't exist in her bp world. And it was sooo sarcastic and biting

in light of Rita's miscarriage that she knew about. I thought she

behaved in a manner that was very unmerciful- the exact opposite of

what I know my faith to be and most people I've been fortunate enough

to bond with over my faith. But sarcasm is a trademark of this, aye?

I think that's where Rita and I bonded later on- me telling her how I

don't like family memembers pretending to know me better than I know

myself. Its a red flag for me and after that Rita, whose normally

very quite and upbeat and happy-go-lucky and never seems to have

problmes,just let the flood gates open of the insanity she's dealt

w/over her cousin's behavior. It just resonated so much w/me and the

bp fleas and issues and honestly I can see more and more of it now

that I look objectively from the outside. This cousin is more like my

nada than the other bps that have come into my life that I repel.

She's very charming, very likable, very flattering and 'seems' to

have everyone's best interest at heart- blah, blah. She's a high

functioning one like my nada and so there's my own weakness- not

seeing what is right infront of me though like I said, my instincts

have lead me away from being too terribly close to this group-

occassional play dates and whatnot and by occassional I mean two to

three times a year for the past three years. But now I'm totally in

the mix of it w/this bi-weekly group meeting we have and w/a weekly

youth group we've volunteered to help out with. I think I may drop

the biweekly group as that's too much one on one but I like the youth

group and can isolate myself well enough. On the fence though- truly

on the fence.

These people are sooo freaking obnoxious and dangerous.

>

>

> This is the (church) stuff that makes us feel crazy; So, WHO gets

to decide

> what 'God' THINKS.

>

> Back to basics: God loves us, unconditionally; and 'HE/SHE' will

not forsake

> us. This is not dependent upon whether our parents recognize

that 'God'

> sent us THROUGH THEM, not TO THEM. It is a matter of who they,

our parents,

> think they are. They, like us, are of the same power, source ...

and should

> humble themselves. If they fail to do that, then we are not

required to follow

> them. Please forgive my refusal to adhere to the historical norm

of the

> infallible parent.

>

> Carol

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 10/6/2006 10:09:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> richardson20214@... writes:

>

> in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church and

BPD.

> 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple setting -

> unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar, they

can't

> get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't

really

> savvy.

> 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the original

> Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us survivors

of

> physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one thing

> only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and had to

> recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and fada

> pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means not

to

> play along with their WORST.

> If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm a

pastor

> at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero

patience

> for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You know the old saying? " The devil's favorite disguise is God. "

I also like to remind people that, though good faith and bad

psychology can mimic each other, they're actually worlds apart. I'm

so sorry about what you've encountered.

I think you're right on in focusing on the unifying effects of God.

When it comes to the swamp of BPD and religious life (of any sort),

I think that's the question - is something leading to simplicity,

wholeness, light, and opening up rather than shutting down? OR is

it leading to complication, dis-integration, and FOG? If it's yes

to the first, it's holy. If it's yes to the second, it's BPD.

> >

> > in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church and

BPD.

> > 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple

setting -

> > unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar, they

can't

> > get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't

really

> > savvy.

> > 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the

original

> > Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us

survivors of

> > physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one

thing

> > only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and had

to

> > recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and fada

> > pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means

not to

> > play along with their WORST.

> > If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm a

pastor

> > at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero

patience

> > for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

They disturb the peace- the exact opposite

> effect of what faith should do for a person.

Kerrie, this is exactly why I stopped going to church. The peace I

used to get there every week, was ***gone***. And it was replaced with

more stress. Darn BP's... -Janie

[Guest guest]

Hi, !

I like that saying you mentioned, I haven't heard it before ( " The

devil's favorite disguise is God. " ).

Great point in the earlier post too, about how you can't " fire " the

BPs from church, nor " bounce " them. So true.

And oftentimes, the BPs get enough strokes from the people they've

snowed, that they get really reeeeeallllyyyyy entrenched. I always

felt sorry for our minister because I'm sure he got an earful about

those three women, and yet, what can he do? Toss em out? No. They're

probably driving ***him*** more insane than they are driving anyone

else. Plus, whereas we can complain and vent to each other, the

minister can't come to one of us and say, " OMG YOU KNOW WHAT THAT

CRAZY WOMAN DID NOW?!?!??! "

My mother went from church to church over the years. Some mainstream,

some kind of fringey. And each one she was convinced was the true

church (black-and-white thinking). And she always got involved deeply

( " pillar of the church " ) until something happened and she felt

insufficently adored and appreciated, and so she had to find a new

" true church " . Kind of sickening.

At each church, everyone thought I had this " wonderful " mother and

people were always telling me " how nice " she was. I don't remember in

all those years, and all those churches, anyone seeing through her.

Creepy!

Yup, they sure do get entrenched at church, and they can take the joy

and peace right out of it.

Janie

[Guest guest]

My mom always said " the devil comes as an angel of light " I always

thought YEAH YOU MOM! She knows how to play church very well. She

was so good at tricking people to thinking what she did was Holy and

Righteous I knew it was a façade I knew her other side the sneaking

around with boyfriends, the raging at me, the drinking, the lies and

gossip. I hate to even tell this story because it could give away my

identity but I will anyways. One Sunday morning when she was " having

church " at her house I was just 16 or 17 I still lived there and was

still under her rules so I had to go. She has a few families

following her teaching. One of the families was very poor, meek and

impressionable, my nada was especially close to them was that hard

to guess. They would come to our home at least every other day and

Sunday mornings they would show up early. Well this lady said to my

nada as we sat in the living room before the others arrived, " is it

right that we meet here? " There was fog all over the glass windows

in our formal living room which we were sitting in and just at that

prices moment in which she asked the question I shit you not a cross

formed on the window closest to my nada. My nada looked over to the

window and said " does that answer your question. " The impressionable

lady said " yes I believe. I wont question any more. " We all were

freaked out. I think about all this and all that happened in the

beginning my nada was just reading from the bible and we would talk

about what we read. Later it got to be so controlling she would use

the bible pick chapters and verses that would benefit her and use

them for control it was all so evil. As soon as I could, I stopped

going. But I had to wait until I was 18. By that point I was married

and had a baby. But I wonder what kind of powers my nada has that

even a cross was forming on the window? It was scary not peaceful. I

never had a peace. She always was going to secret meetings they

were " bible studies " very late at night she would leave after 8 or 9

pm, she never brought a bible and we all were sleeping when she came

back. I don't want to sound loopy but I strongly believe my nada is

into something that I don't even dare say. How else could she have

those kinds of powers? This is just one of the many stories and this

one isn't even scary. I have had little girls come into my room in

the middle of the night who I don't even know wake me talking in a

mans voice and telling my house was a church introduce me to their

imaginary friend jack only to find my mom was performing exorcisms

in the middle of the night. I never had a part of any of this I

refused to go along with her in any of this I thought it was all

INSAINE. I think if somebody needs one they should see a

professional not my mom. The bad things she has done and the bad

things she has brought into the home or in her words " church " I

can't even begin to tell you. I just know it is all so crazy. The

way she used God was really just a sin. She even used Him to

sexually abuse me as a small child praying while abusing me at the

same time. I know God would not approve of such behaviors. I can't

even tell you all the sick ways she used God as a means of control.

Anyways this was why I struggled in the beginning but I found my way

apart from her and I for once in my life feel true freedom. Love

Lizzy

> > >

> > > in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church

and

> BPD.

> > > 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple

> setting -

> > > unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar, they

> can't

> > > get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't

> really

> > > savvy.

> > > 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the

> original

> > > Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us

> survivors of

> > > physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one

> thing

> > > only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and

had

> to

> > > recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and

fada

> > > pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means

> not to

> > > play along with their WORST.

> > > If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm a

> pastor

> > > at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero

> patience

> > > for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

CAROL, Well said

" 'God' sent us THROUGH THEM, not TO THEM " That is a bag of comfort

right there! Love Lizzy

>

>

> This is the (church) stuff that makes us feel crazy; So, WHO gets

to decide

> what 'God' THINKS.

>

> Back to basics: God loves us, unconditionally; and 'HE/SHE' will

not forsake

> us. This is not dependent upon whether our parents recognize

that 'God'

> sent us THROUGH THEM, not TO THEM. It is a matter of who they,

our parents,

> think they are. They, like us, are of the same power, source ...

and should

> humble themselves. If they fail to do that, then we are not

required to follow

> them. Please forgive my refusal to adhere to the historical norm

of the

> infallible parent.

>

> Carol

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 10/6/2006 10:09:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> richardson20214@... writes:

>

> in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church and

BPD.

> 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple

setting -

> unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar, they

can't

> get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't

really

> savvy.

> 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the

original

> Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us

survivors of

> physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one thing

> only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and had

to

> recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and fada

> pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means not

to

> play along with their WORST.

> If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm a

pastor

> at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero

patience

> for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Lizzy, I am furious, heartbroken - but above all, rejoicing with you

in your rightful freedom.

> > > >

> > > > in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church

> and

> > BPD.

> > > > 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple

> > setting -

> > > > unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar,

they

> > can't

> > > > get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't

> > really

> > > > savvy.

> > > > 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the

> > original

> > > > Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us

> > survivors of

> > > > physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one

> > thing

> > > > only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and

> had

> > to

> > > > recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and

> fada

> > > > pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada

means

> > not to

> > > > play along with their WORST.

> > > > If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm

a

> > pastor

> > > > at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero

> > patience

> > > > for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Back to the topic of a few days ago combined w/ the topic of today I

was thinking of this song and think it is applicable as well. My

nada was always writing me to come back and she hopes I forgive and

we can start over. And how she is praying and bla bla bull crap.

When ever I hear this song I think of my nada. it is by le

Peck

VERSE 1

You say you're doin' better

For your sake I hope it's true

I wish you well

But that's all that I can do

Save your " I'm sorry's "

Just leave 'em out the door

You can't make me feel guilty anymore

CHORUS

You say I should stay with you

That Jesus forgives you

You pray I will, but I won't

The difference is

Jesus loves you, I don't

VERSE 2

I know it sounds cruel

And it's really not like me, but

You've put me in a place

I never thought I'd be

These tears I'm crying

Are just tears of goodbye

I hope you find someone else

Somewhere in your life

Somewhere in your life

CHORUS

You say I should stay with you

That Jesus forgives you

You pray I will, but I won't

The difference is

Jesus loves you, I don't

BRIDGE

I don't wanna know you still want me

Don't need to hear you can't sleep

No I don't, no I don't

CHORUS

You say I should stay with you

That Jesus forgives you

You pray I will, but I won't

The difference is

Jesus loves you, Oh I know

Jesus loves you, I don't

mmhh.....

> > > > >

> > > > > in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to

church

> > and

> > > BPD.

> > > > > 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple

> > > setting -

> > > > > unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar,

> they

> > > can't

> > > > > get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders

aren't

> > > really

> > > > > savvy.

> > > > > 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the

> > > original

> > > > > Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us

> > > survivors of

> > > > > physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and

one

> > > thing

> > > > > only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for

and

> > had

> > > to

> > > > > recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada

and

> > fada

> > > > > pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada

> means

> > > not to

> > > > > play along with their WORST.

> > > > > If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way

(I'm

> a

> > > pastor

> > > > > at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have

zero

> > > patience

> > > > > for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg,

I think places of worship are safe houses for BPDs - very little

risk of rejection! When I think about Christianity it's the perfect

place for a BPD to hide - sins are washed clean, forgiveness is

abundant, love is unconditional, and the churchgoers who are

actually sane have no idea how manipulative someone with BPD can be.

All of this enables them to act however they want to and always be

accepted.

I won't comment on this particular church's policies, but let's just

say the reason the church split was because the sane folks realized

that something was rotten in Denmark, and they all left. I guess

those who stayed liked the drama or bought into the scandal. The

pastor left, and I think the youth group leader did, too (and who

can blame him). I don't know what became of him or his career, but

he was always very youth-oriented so I hope he was able to continue

that elsewhere.

I was so disappointed when he dropped the lawsuit. I was all ready

to be a character witness...

> >

> > in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church and

> BPD.

> > 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple

setting -

>

> > unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar, they

> can't

> > get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't

> really

> > savvy.

> > 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the

original

> > Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us

survivors

> of

> > physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one

thing

> > only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and had

to

> > recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and fada

> > pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means not

> to

> > play along with their WORST.

> > If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm a

> pastor

> > at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero

> patience

> > for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo!

Small Business.

>

>

[Guest guest]

---

,

I read your post about how your mother uses the bible for her

own purposes, and you questioned whether there is a verse about how

parents should treat their children. Well, I don't know the bible

chapter and verse, but (and I checked this in the bible) there is a

verse in Ephesians 6:4 that says, ... do not provoke your children

to anger, wrath or indignation. And later, ... through

lovingkindness and tender mercies nurture your children in the way

they should go. In another chapter, there is a directive to ...turn

my heart to the hearts of my children, and the hearts of my children

to me. That's all I know about actual verses, but I can't believe

that the God in anyone's religion, no matter which religion you

believe, would think that mothers should act in the abusive, self-

serving way that BPD mothers do.

Cloverbee

In WTOAdultChildren1 , " sherby2k "

wrote:

>

> Hi Greg,

>

> I think places of worship are safe houses for BPDs - very little

> risk of rejection! When I think about Christianity it's the

perfect

> place for a BPD to hide - sins are washed clean, forgiveness is

> abundant, love is unconditional, and the churchgoers who are

> actually sane have no idea how manipulative someone with BPD can

be.

> All of this enables them to act however they want to and always be

> accepted.

>

> I won't comment on this particular church's policies, but let's

just

> say the reason the church split was because the sane folks

realized

> that something was rotten in Denmark, and they all left. I guess

> those who stayed liked the drama or bought into the scandal. The

> pastor left, and I think the youth group leader did, too (and who

> can blame him). I don't know what became of him or his career, but

> he was always very youth-oriented so I hope he was able to

continue

> that elsewhere.

>

> I was so disappointed when he dropped the lawsuit. I was all ready

> to be a character witness...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > >

> > > in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church

and

> > BPD.

> > > 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple

> setting -

> >

> > > unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar, they

> > can't

> > > get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't

> > really

> > > savvy.

> > > 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the

> original

> > > Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us

> survivors

> > of

> > > physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one

> thing

> > > only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and

had

> to

> > > recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and

fada

> > > pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means

not

> > to

> > > play along with their WORST.

> > > If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm a

> > pastor

> > > at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero

> > patience

> > > for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help.

Yahoo!

> Small Business.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Cloverbee,

Thank you for the references! I think that's what bugs me the most

about the use of the " Honor Thy Mother and Father " bit - it's really

taken out of context. The chapter talks about how a family unit

should work, not only how children should act towards their parents

but also how parents should behave towards their children (this is

the verse you pointed out in Ephesians 6:4). Why is it that we

always hear about the first part but rarely about the second? I

guess I'm really sensitive about this.. I guess I just get tired of

verses being used in ways other than intended (as I said, nada

always did this).

I think the verses I'm thinking of are the ones warning us to stay

away from angry people - I'm trying to find those now.

Thanks!

> > > >

> > > > in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church

> and

> > > BPD.

> > > > 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple

> > setting -

> > >

> > > > unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar,

they

> > > can't

> > > > get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't

> > > really

> > > > savvy.

> > > > 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the

> > original

> > > > Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us

> > survivors

> > > of

> > > > physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one

> > thing

> > > > only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and

> had

> > to

> > > > recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and

> fada

> > > > pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means

> not

> > > to

> > > > play along with their WORST.

> > > > If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm

a

> > > pastor

> > > > at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero

> > > patience

> > > > for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help.

> Yahoo!

> > Small Business.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

,

I think its kind of like you hear a lot about 'wives be submissive to

their husbands' but there's rarely any ever reference to the

following statement of 'husbands love your wives as Christ loved the

church' which is basically dieing for the wife and dieing to self.

Nope, you just hear the wives submit part b/c a lot of brutes want to

distort and manipulate to their own ends and agendas. Actually my dh

and I have given talks around here on this particular passage and

clarifying it and making so its not so distorted.

The whole parental thing is still sooooo warped though- even more

IMHO than the marriage one. People look much more favorably in our

culture on divorcing a spouse over divorcing a parent. Seems from my

own observations people can understand much better picking out a bad

spouse and making promises to them than they can understand rejecting

a relationship you never had a decision in the process to make. It

actually makes me very angry when I think on it too long and hard and

so I don't too much.

But people are always good at twisting things around to their own end

and I'm quite certain I have too though I am not sure I am hard of

heart as a bp- like I changed a good bit when I realized I was an

ahole. Can't say my nada has ever thought of that- introspection, ya

know?

K

> > > > >

> > > > > in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church

> > and

> > > > BPD.

> > > > > 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple

> > > setting -

> > > >

> > > > > unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar,

> they

> > > > can't

> > > > > get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't

> > > > really

> > > > > savvy.

> > > > > 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the

> > > original

> > > > > Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us

> > > survivors

> > > > of

> > > > > physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one

> > > thing

> > > > > only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and

> > had

> > > to

> > > > > recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and

> > fada

> > > > > pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada

means

> > not

> > > > to

> > > > > play along with their WORST.

> > > > > If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way

(I'm

> a

> > > > pastor

> > > > > at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have

zero

> > > > patience

> > > > > for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help.

> > Yahoo!

> > > Small Business.

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Kerrie,

I know exactly what you mean. Nobody would ever consider telling a

battered wife to return to her abusive husband, and yet I hear all

the time " she's your mother " , as if somehow that justifies her bad

behavior. I think to me that's one of the more painful parts of

being a KO, simply that so few people understand how hard the

decision is to restrict or end contact with a parent in the first

place, without the extra burden of feeling society's disapproval.

For years I've tried to get back into a church - thanks to nada,

being inside a church gives me migraines. Last year I thought I had

finally found a church that I was starting to feel comfortable in,

until one woman told me that she found it " unacceptable " that I

would cut my own mother out of my life. So much for that!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to

church

> > > and

> > > > > BPD.

> > > > > > 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or

temple

> > > > setting -

> > > > >

> > > > > > unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a

bar,

> > they

> > > > > can't

> > > > > > get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders

aren't

> > > > > really

> > > > > > savvy.

> > > > > > 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the

> > > > original

> > > > > > Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us

> > > > survivors

> > > > > of

> > > > > > physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and

one

> > > > thing

> > > > > > only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for

and

> > > had

> > > > to

> > > > > > recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada

and

> > > fada

> > > > > > pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada

> means

> > > not

> > > > > to

> > > > > > play along with their WORST.

> > > > > > If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way

> (I'm

> > a

> > > > > pastor

> > > > > > at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have

> zero

> > > > > patience

> > > > > > for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > > Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll

help.

> > > Yahoo!

> > > > Small Business.

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

thanks, Carol. There are certainly very different kinds of

congregations out there, some that can enable healing, and tons that

can wreck it. I understand being alone - and I'm sure, in many

ways, you aren't alone. I wish you all the best

And re: another post - it's a brilliant analogy between divorcing a

spouse and divorcing a parent. Incredible, but true.

>

>

> Thanks ; is a great relief to know that somebody still

believes

> ... in a community of faith. My own experience has been that

being alone

> works; I hope that I get past that before I die. Carol

>

>

> In a message dated 10/7/2006 7:35:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> richardson20214@... writes:

>

> I would hope a healthy religious teaching (vs. unhealthy, of

which

> there is way too much) is that we are first and foremost God's

> children. And what God wants for us are the things that are life-

> giving, not life-taking. Our own parents failed miserably at the

> gifts (us) they were given. But God will work through us, our

> therapists, this board!, close friends and supportive family, to

> help us rebuild what our parents so badly destroyed.

(Please 'scuse

> the God-talk, if it's not your thing!)

>

> Re: looking for a congregation, if that's part of your path -

they

> can vary highly from one to the other. Please always look for

one

> that welcomes and accepts you as you are, and any friends or

> family. They are out there.....!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

So sorry to hear of your experience w/this other lady in a church you

actually liked. Do you think she was a borderline too or just

seriously self-righteous?

I've had issues like this as well. I had one friend quote the ten

commandments to me recently, well earlier this year when I made the

decision to cut nada out of my life and it just infuriated me that

she'd be so curt and callous. I responded to her that I'd consultated

w/our pastor and other spiritual directors that she knows and

respects and said they said the opposite of her advice and when push

comes to shove, I'll trust their wisdom over her's any day of the

week. Now I could tell she wasn't a bp when she responded w/a little

humility and admitted that I should follow the other's wiser counsel

over her's, but her ability to guilt is obnoxious and I think that's

how she must operate in her own FOO and so she was projecting. I

shared that story w/a shared friend and her dh was soooo mad at this

friend for trying to guilt me into this relationship w/nada and said

she just needed to shut up more. I could tell by that statement and

support that I have made good affirming supportive friends in the

church and faith and that they too find our shared friends ability to

just open her mouth too easily equally as annoying as I find it.

Validation I suppose though again, she's not a bp just a bit self-

righteous w/a tongue that wags too easily- better friends w/shared

friend than dh and I.

Sometimes when I share the story of nada and I w/some church friends

I will state quite clearly that she's a mentally ill person and part

of her mental illness is in targeting me and labeling me as all bad

or all evil (now my friends who know me find this absurd and realize,

yes, this does sound a bit mentally ill). Then I will share with them

how it is best for me not to be around her b/c she is so mean to me

and so cruel and just vicious that I don't want her soul to burn in

hell and so I avoid her so that she won't fall into occassions of

sin. It is part truth, but I also have the right to boundaries as

well and that's something that is often lost on Christians (though I

would not say that is true w/some Christians that are in positions of

authority that I've consulted- infact they have reiterated the need

for boundaries w/nada but some of the family types in normal society

think we need to be doormats and that's just not how I see it nor the

wise counsel I've been fortunate enough to receive over these past 7

years). But when I spin it like that, they have a tendency to back

off and in many ways feel sympathy for me which always makes me feel

like I've pulled a waif or something. Its just easier though than

getting too deep into the details or coming off like I'm super angry

(which I'm not for the most part- only when she pulls some stunt and

then I only discuss these things w/those closest to me who know the

situation and can validate it for me- NEVER EVER those that are at

arms length- they just don't get it and I'm glad in some ways they

don't- lets me know there truly is different ways of operating and

existing) or holding a grudge against nada (which again, I don't

think I am. I want respect in my relationship right now and if I

can't get that, then out ya go, ya know?).

K

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to

> church

> > > > and

> > > > > > BPD.

> > > > > > > 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or

> temple

> > > > > setting -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a

> bar,

> > > they

> > > > > > can't

> > > > > > > get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders

> aren't

> > > > > > really

> > > > > > > savvy.

> > > > > > > 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study

the

> > > > > original

> > > > > > > Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of

us

> > > > > survivors

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and

> one

> > > > > thing

> > > > > > > only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for

> and

> > > > had

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada

> and

> > > > fada

> > > > > > > pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada

> > means

> > > > not

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > play along with their WORST.

> > > > > > > If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way

> > (I'm

> > > a

> > > > > > pastor

> > > > > > > at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have

> > zero

> > > > > > patience

> > > > > > > for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > > > Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll

> help.

> > > > Yahoo!

> > > > > Small Business.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Whooowie--that was a serious thread! Thanks to everyone for

contributing and to for starting it. It's funny because I

have an NPD minister for a grandfather and a super-religious and

probably BP-waif for a granny. My dad decided that our family should

be atheist (to avoid insanity?!?!?!) Anyway, I've always thought it's

funny how my parents link spirituality and mental illness and have

never quite agreed with them, but have also never had the experience

of being in a religious community. Even though I don't buy my

parent's rejection of god/spirituality, I am still massively

distrustfull of religious organizations because they really do seem to

house some pretty sick people. I still prefer to read up on and

ponder these things on my own and frankly almost never can bring

myself to discuss my religious/spiritual beliefs with others.

This thread has made me realize yet another way BP has affected my

life and cut me off from other people. Although being spiritual on

your own is not such a bad way to go, it might be nice to be around

other people who have similar beliefs sometimes or to just be able to

discuss religious beliefs in a safe setting. I still think I am a

little to paranoid for any church-going as of yet, though!

Trish

>

> in case this helps anyone - re: recent references to church and BPD.

> 1) - BPD is one of the MAIN killers in a church or temple setting -

> unlike a workplace, people can't get fired; unlike a bar, they can't

> get bounced. BPDs can wreck a parish, if the leaders aren't really

> savvy.

> 2) the " honor father and mother " thing? If you study the original

> Hebrew setting, there's lots to say, but for those of us survivors of

> physical/emotional/sexual abuse, it means one thing and one thing

> only - honor the healthy parent we sought and hoped for and had to

> recreate inside ourselves - and to play along with nada and fada

> pathology is NOT honoring them. To honor nada and fada means not to

> play along with their WORST.

> If anybody has questions on this shit, shoot 'em my way (I'm a pastor

> at a leading church in a mainline denomination and have zero patience

> for abuse of Scripture along these lines.)

>

[Guest guest]

My nada is BIG on church too; except that she doesn't go to any. She is too

perfect to listen to any sermons ... 'preachers' are phonys, lol, in her

world.

So, she professes to know 'the truth'; she is very selective about what

scripture supports her dogma ... mother is always right. Carol