Re: New to the Group

[Guest guest]

Cloverbee,

You don't sound ridiculous. I think all of us have had an epiphany

moments when the light dawns and we realize it isn't us, but the other person

that has the problem. For me it was the umpteenth time I reacted to the kids

misbehavior as a personal critique of how lousy I was as a parent and a person

and that my mother was right when she called me a worthless piece of shit when I

was a child. For the umpteenth time my husband asked me if I told him this and I

had said yes I had told counselors when we had money to pay for it and except

for one counselor who was an intern and left to start her own practice none of

the other interns I had for a counselor thought what I mention was important

(because we are low income and I was getting counseling on a sliding, I only had

interns to counsel me). Then he asked if I had mention this to any of my friends

both here and on-line. I told him no because I didn't what to bother them about

my problems. He left took a walk in

frustration. While he was out I decided to mention my problem to two yahoo

groups I am part of. I receive a lot of sympathy from the members in them and in

one group someone said that it sounded like my mom had BPD and gave me a few

sites to check out BPD and see if I agreed with her. I did that and posted that

I agreed with her. She offered to help me find some yahoo groups that support

groups for those who have parents that are BPD, one of the groups she

recommended was this one and I think the other is Welcome to Oz (I belong to

both groups). I also told my friends who are part of a Reiki circle I am part of

and the were sympathetic too. Luckily for me my mom cut off contact to me years

ago so I only have to deal with past wounds. Remember you are loved, you are

like a diamond in the sun, and this group will comfort you, and help you heal

and grow.

cloverbee23 wrote:

Hi all~

Well, I have just finally found out what to call my mother's

bizarre behavior, BPD. I first found out about the book, Stop

Walking on Eggshells and from there to Surviving a Borderline

Parent. Wow! I did not know that her behavior had a name! I know

I must sound ridiculous, but this is a real epiphany for me. I'm

having all kinds of emotions. I'm glad to know that this is a real

situation as everyone else in my family (except my brother) either

denies the problem entirely or minimizes everything. I am the one

my mother chose as the " bad " child. I have suffered so long with

being told all of these bad things about myself when I knew they

weren't true. Or being " assigned " (by my mother) bad motives for

everything I did, when my motives were pure and good. I have gotten

to the point where I don't know what's real or true. Everything is,

and always has been, all about her. Nothing has ever mattered

except what she wanted, felt, thought, etc... even when she was

being completely nonsensical. My father (he's dead now) told all of

us kids (a direct quote), " to make her life happen happy " . That's

right, we were in charge of her happiness, which incidently, we were

never able to achieve. Imagine that!!! I feel so frustrated! I

feel like I'm going to implode! What do I do now? Any advice would

be appreciated. Thanks!

.

Peace and Comfort

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Cloverbee,

I relate to so much of what you are saying. The first I read of BPD

was online and then " Understanding the BL Mother " . I am now

reading " SWOE " . While I have been living with the understanding of

BPD for a year or so, I continue to be amazed at the predictability

and universality of these behavoirs.

My father is still alive and from the time we were little kids had

us comfort our mother. Why? Because the burden was too great for

him? Because he wanted to get out of the way of her wrath? Because

he felt caring for her was his greatest duty? I love him, feel

frustrated at his weakness, feel sad for him (he has chosen to be

stuck in the situaiton), etc.

While my sisters and I are starting to pull out of the divisiveness

this illness has imposed on our family, for a long time, it was just

one sister and I that saw the problem - though we still approached

it differently and fought.

My father alternatively says (1)there is a problem " but every family

has dysfunction " and (2)just shuts down. My other sister was split

bad and for a long still yearned afer my mother's approval. She is

finally seeing my mother's problem and working her way out of the

hole all of the abuse caused her. Now, all three sibs see the

problem and are finally working together (slowly, with stumbles) to

hold our mother responsible for her behavoir.

My sister (split bad) used to see me as harsh and cold for being

distant with my mom (this I did even before learning about BPD), and

my sister was especially angry with me since I had been split good.

To be honest, it is only because my sister decided to take control

of her life, get help, that all the hostility between us was finally

able to subside. The biggest turn-around moment I think was a time

(recent) when my mother acted out and no once responded. For the

first time, everyone saw this could be done and life would go on.

I don't know the specifics of your relationship with your siblings.

In my experience, I ultimately had to say to my sister that I

thought our mother was not okay and that, while I wished I could be

more compassionate to her, for the time being, I was having trouble

doing that. I explained that staying distant from our mother

(talking politely but not being very loving - ie: caretaking) was

the kindest thing I could do because going further might push me to

avoid her (our mother) altogether.

I planted the seed in my sister's head that our mother was not okay

but did not push it (well, I did at one time push it, but finally

figured I needed to back off). I remained distant with our mother

and explained to my sibs that, for whatever reason, this is what I

needed to do for the time being.

Ultimately, we all seem to be understanding something is wrong and

can now discuss it without so much tension. I really didn't do

anything to make this happen except try to not alienate my sibs when

we were at different spots.

Thank you for posting. I am fairly new at processing this all as

well and it is helpful to read about your experience and thoughts.

Caitlyn

" everyone else in my family (except my brother) either denies the

problem entirely or minimizes everything. I am the one my mother

chose as the " bad " child. I have suffered so long with being told

all of these bad things about myself when I knew they weren't true.

Or being " assigned " (by my mother) bad motives for everything I did,

when my motives were pure and good. I have gotten to the point

where I don't know what's real or true. Everything is, and always

has been, all about her. Nothing has ever mattered except what she

wanted, felt, thought, etc... even when she was being completely

nonsensical. My father (he's dead now) told all of us kids (a

direct quote), " to make her life happen happy " . That's right, we

were in charge of her happiness, which incidently, we were never

able to achieve. Imagine that!!! I feel so frustrated! I feel

like I'm going to implode! What do I do now? Any advice would be

appreciated. Thanks! "

[Guest guest]

hello....

I have only posted a couple of times but never went into too much depth..

My mother is aging and although i have a brother - i am the only caretaker

for her. She does not drive and has no friends and so i am basically it. My

brother lives out of town and even if he didn't he might as well be....(as when

he did he was never around)

My father was killed in Vietnam when i was 5 years old, my brother 10. My mum

refused to accept his death my father was killed in a plane crash and the

remains of the crew were never fully identified, as a result my mum believed it

that he survived the crash - anyone who believed otherwise couldn't love him

otherwise they wouldn't give up. Anyway, needless to say - my brother and I

believe that he was alive - for years and years and years... (until i was 19 -

believe it or not!) In the meantime, she went through depressions and was not

" actively " present in our lives. Her mood swings were up and down - lasting a

day or hours. She would tell us that she was better off dead and then pretended

one time that she had taken pills and was laying in her bed pretending to be

dying. - i was 7 at this time and remember crying hysterically for hours. I

grew up believing that i had to protect her, and would do anything so that she

wouldn't cry, get upset and go off to bed.

There were fights in our house all the time - both my brother and i didn't love

her she would say and that her life was hell and that everyone was against her -

even her own children. I grew up (as you all did) with this on a daily basis -

I always thought my dad would come home and somehow save us from the crazy world

we lived in - but ofcourse he never did. When i reached 15 my mother decided to

tell me how horrible my father had been to her - that he had hit her and had

affairs etc....... i was devistated......she had had him on this pedestal all

these years and then suddenly without warning she tore him down. I refused to

believe the stories she told of him and was confused how someone could love

someone so much and grieve for him and then say the things she did about him.

It was only in the last few years did i realize there was one constant thing in

all the issues with all our families - my mother! She has fought with every

single one of them and now only

really has me and my brother left in her life. I have struggled for years for

feeling so responsible for her happiness - for her life and I could never

understand why............until recently. I am just beginning to understand all

of this and reading about it as much as i can. I have a very difficult time

with the FOG and struggle with it constantly. Whenever I leave her (after

taking her for groceries etc) and I pull away from her driveway and she is

waving goodbye - i get so many mixed emotions (especially when we have had a

good visit) i look at her and feel this ache - I think that time is so short and

she might not be here much longer and I am scared to death thinking of life

without her. I look at her and feel so sad to know how alone she is (working on

understanding that these have been her choices)

Anyway - sorry for the long post - I guess it just gets overwhelming

sometimes...and you don't realize how much until you start to write or talk

about it!!

dawn

vivir4paz wrote:

Cloverbee,

I relate to so much of what you are saying. The first I read of BPD

was online and then " Understanding the BL Mother " . I am now

reading " SWOE " . While I have been living with the understanding of

BPD for a year or so, I continue to be amazed at the predictability

and universality of these behavoirs.

My father is still alive and from the time we were little kids had

us comfort our mother. Why? Because the burden was too great for

him? Because he wanted to get out of the way of her wrath? Because

he felt caring for her was his greatest duty? I love him, feel

frustrated at his weakness, feel sad for him (he has chosen to be

stuck in the situaiton), etc.

While my sisters and I are starting to pull out of the divisiveness

this illness has imposed on our family, for a long time, it was just

one sister and I that saw the problem - though we still approached

it differently and fought.

My father alternatively says (1)there is a problem " but every family

has dysfunction " and (2)just shuts down. My other sister was split

bad and for a long still yearned afer my mother's approval. She is

finally seeing my mother's problem and working her way out of the

hole all of the abuse caused her. Now, all three sibs see the

problem and are finally working together (slowly, with stumbles) to

hold our mother responsible for her behavoir.

My sister (split bad) used to see me as harsh and cold for being

distant with my mom (this I did even before learning about BPD), and

my sister was especially angry with me since I had been split good.

To be honest, it is only because my sister decided to take control

of her life, get help, that all the hostility between us was finally

able to subside. The biggest turn-around moment I think was a time

(recent) when my mother acted out and no once responded. For the

first time, everyone saw this could be done and life would go on.

I don't know the specifics of your relationship with your siblings.

In my experience, I ultimately had to say to my sister that I

thought our mother was not okay and that, while I wished I could be

more compassionate to her, for the time being, I was having trouble

doing that. I explained that staying distant from our mother

(talking politely but not being very loving - ie: caretaking) was

the kindest thing I could do because going further might push me to

avoid her (our mother) altogether.

I planted the seed in my sister's head that our mother was not okay

but did not push it (well, I did at one time push it, but finally

figured I needed to back off). I remained distant with our mother

and explained to my sibs that, for whatever reason, this is what I

needed to do for the time being.

Ultimately, we all seem to be understanding something is wrong and

can now discuss it without so much tension. I really didn't do

anything to make this happen except try to not alienate my sibs when

we were at different spots.

Thank you for posting. I am fairly new at processing this all as

well and it is helpful to read about your experience and thoughts.

Caitlyn

" everyone else in my family (except my brother) either denies the

problem entirely or minimizes everything. I am the one my mother

chose as the " bad " child. I have suffered so long with being told

all of these bad things about myself when I knew they weren't true.

Or being " assigned " (by my mother) bad motives for everything I did,

when my motives were pure and good. I have gotten to the point

where I don't know what's real or true. Everything is, and always

has been, all about her. Nothing has ever mattered except what she

wanted, felt, thought, etc... even when she was being completely

nonsensical. My father (he's dead now) told all of us kids (a

direct quote), " to make her life happen happy " . That's right, we

were in charge of her happiness, which incidently, we were never

able to achieve. Imagine that!!! I feel so frustrated! I feel

like I'm going to implode! What do I do now? Any advice would be

appreciated. Thanks! "

abstract thoughts....in rhyme

djokieff.com

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+

countries) for 2¢/min or less.

[Guest guest]

Welcome to the group! I'm the daughter of a ubpd/apd (undiagnosed

borderline/antisocial personality disorder) nada (mother). I've been

NC (no contact) for 13 years. I actually just discovered a name for it

all this year. I was also the " bad " child - painted black since birth.

I was able to break free because the abuse was so horrible that I

really had no choice. I couldn't have survived if I had not cut them

from my life. The good news - I have been happily married for more

than 15 years, have three children and a good life. I still deal with

issues that come up from my past, but overall what happened in my

childhood is a small part of who I am today.

I think being able to put a name to it, and find a group of people who

understand is a huge step for us all. This is an amazing group of

people! You don't have to preface every story with explanations.

We've been there and we get it. So keep posting here. I hope it is as

helpful for you as it has been for me.

A few things that helped me:

individual therapy - you didn't say if you had a T, but if you don't I

highly recommend it. If you don't have one, make sure you get one

familiar with bpd. I was treated in my early 20's for PTSD (post

traumatic stress disorder) which was caused by the abuse. It was life

changing for me, and gave me the tools to move through the pain and

move on with my life. I also sought therapy before I had my first

child, as I knew I was high risk for post partum depression, and just

needed someone to talk to about becoming a mother and how to be a good

one with no real role model to turn to. I also attended marriage

therapy with my husband at one point for a few weeks to help us learn

to communicate better (his mother is diagnosed but refuses treatment

bipolar so neither of us had a good model to start from).

talking to other KOs (kids of) - I think in some ways this is the most

healing because it helps you realize that you are not alone, and that

you can get through this.

You mentioned Walking on Eggshells and Surviving the Borderline Parent.

Another book that has been great for a lot of KOs is Understanding the

Borderline Mother by Lawson. She defines 4 types of bpd

mothers, their behavior and the affect on their children. It is a hard

read, but well worth it. When I read the " Witch " mother section it was

the first time I really thought someone " got it " about my mother.

Take care of yourself - be gentle with yourself as you explore all of

this. Try to surround yourself with supportive people, and limit your

contact with those who are not supportive while you are sorting it all

out. I think when you first realize that this has a " name " and really

start dealing with it is a very vulnerable time for most. You have to

work through all those messages that you internalized as a child, that

are really toxic. The FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) of many families

affected by bpd is very strong, and it takes time and a lot of work to

get through it. But the good news - you can get through it and leave

behind the FOG. You can rise above it and really soar. A lot of KOs

have to work through a lot of rage about what happened, and what should

have been, as well as grief for the family they should have had and

didn't. And if you try to ignore those feelings, they will consume

you. But if you can work through them, you will find a much brighter

future on the other side.

I'm glad you have found this group, and hope that you will find it as

validating as I have. It is a great group of people who are all here

to share and help each other. Welcome!

Fresabird

> Hi all~

>

> Well, I have just finally found out what to call my mother's

> bizarre behavior, BPD. I first found out about the book, Stop

> Walking on Eggshells and from there to Surviving a Borderline

> Parent. Wow! I did not know that her behavior had a name! I know

> I must sound ridiculous, but this is a real epiphany for me. I'm

> having all kinds of emotions. I'm glad to know that this is a real

> situation as everyone else in my family (except my brother) either

> denies the problem entirely or minimizes everything. I am the one

> my mother chose as the " bad " child. I have suffered so long with

> being told all of these bad things about myself when I knew they

> weren't true. Or being " assigned " (by my mother) bad motives for

> everything I did, when my motives were pure and good. I have gotten

> to the point where I don't know what's real or true. Everything is,

> and always has been, all about her. Nothing has ever mattered

> except what she wanted, felt, thought, etc... even when she was

> being completely nonsensical. My father (he's dead now) told all of

> us kids (a direct quote), " to make her life happen happy " . That's

> right, we were in charge of her happiness, which incidently, we were

> never able to achieve. Imagine that!!! I feel so frustrated! I

> feel like I'm going to implode! What do I do now? Any advice would

> be appreciated. Thanks!

>

> _

[Guest guest]

Hi Dawn,

I read your e-mail with tears in my eyes. My mother overdosed when I was

14, but for you to have gone through that at the age of 7. My heart aches, as I

know how hard that was for me when I was twice as old. The fear and anxiety and

most of all the guilt that that causes children. I really think that the guilt

that they hold over our heads is one of their strongest " weapons " .

I know what you mean when you say that your Mom told you that everyone

was against her. My mother always thought that people were making snide remarks

to her or didn't show her the proper amount of respect. I remember when I was

little, if we were going to go somewhere, I would close my eyes and wish that no

one would say anything wrong to her. I knew that we kids would have to somehow

make it up to her for hours or days if she thought she had been slighted. Of

course, she usually felt slighted by something, but (surprise, surprise) nothing

we could say or do made any difference. Mostly it was my sister and I who tried

to make her feel better. My brother just washed his hands of her long ago.

When you said that when you visit with your Mom and you've had an

especially good visit, as you leave, you feel an ache. I know exactly,

exactly, how you feel. I know that even though so many things were wrong, she

was and is still my Mom. I see her getting so frail and feel like I want to

make everything right before anything happens to her. I feel like I only have a

little while. Then I have to understand that a great relationship cannot happen

when only one person really wants it. What's really hard to realize is that our

Moms made the decisions to continue to be manipulative and (in my mother's

case) really hurtful all of their adult lives. I know that I have cried and

cried over the fact that I have never had the mother/daughter relationship that

I have desperately wanted. I just have to try and realize that I cannot make my

mother feel something that she doesn't. It's so hard to let go of all of the

guilt.

You sound like a very, very attentive daughter, and I think that you

should try and realize all of the good that you do for your Mom, even after what

you were put through. Some people will just walk away and say " forget this " .

I think to have been treated this way and still be loving proves that you have a

whole lot of inner strength and character.

Thanks for writing. I hope to hear from you again. Take good care.

Sincerely,

Cloverbee ()

Dawn O'Kieff wrote:

hello....

I have only posted a couple of times but never went into too much depth..

My mother is aging and although i have a brother - i am the only caretaker for

her. She does not drive and has no friends and so i am basically it. My brother

lives out of town and even if he didn't he might as well be....(as when he did

he was never around)

My father was killed in Vietnam when i was 5 years old, my brother 10. My mum

refused to accept his death my father was killed in a plane crash and the

remains of the crew were never fully identified, as a result my mum believed it

that he survived the crash - anyone who believed otherwise couldn't love him

otherwise they wouldn't give up. Anyway, needless to say - my brother and I

believe that he was alive - for years and years and years... (until i was 19 -

believe it or not!) In the meantime, she went through depressions and was not

" actively " present in our lives. Her mood swings were up and down - lasting a

day or hours. She would tell us that she was better off dead and then pretended

one time that she had taken pills and was laying in her bed pretending to be

dying. - i was 7 at this time and remember crying hysterically for hours. I grew

up believing that i had to protect her, and would do anything so that she

wouldn't cry, get upset and go off to bed.

There were fights in our house all the time - both my brother and i didn't love

her she would say and that her life was hell and that everyone was against her -

even her own children. I grew up (as you all did) with this on a daily basis - I

always thought my dad would come home and somehow save us from the crazy world

we lived in - but ofcourse he never did. When i reached 15 my mother decided to

tell me how horrible my father had been to her - that he had hit her and had

affairs etc....... i was devistated......she had had him on this pedestal all

these years and then suddenly without warning she tore him down. I refused to

believe the stories she told of him and was confused how someone could love

someone so much and grieve for him and then say the things she did about him. It

was only in the last few years did i realize there was one constant thing in all

the issues with all our families - my mother! She has fought with every single

one of them and now only

really has me and my brother left in her life. I have struggled for years for

feeling so responsible for her happiness - for her life and I could never

understand why............until recently. I am just beginning to understand all

of this and reading about it as much as i can. I have a very difficult time with

the FOG and struggle with it constantly. Whenever I leave her (after taking her

for groceries etc) and I pull away from her driveway and she is waving goodbye -

i get so many mixed emotions (especially when we have had a good visit) i look

at her and feel this ache - I think that time is so short and she might not be

here much longer and I am scared to death thinking of life without her. I look

at her and feel so sad to know how alone she is (working on understanding that

these have been her choices)

Anyway - sorry for the long post - I guess it just gets overwhelming

sometimes...and you don't realize how much until you start to write or talk

about it!!

dawn

vivir4paz wrote:

Cloverbee,

I relate to so much of what you are saying. The first I read of BPD

was online and then " Understanding the BL Mother " . I am now

reading " SWOE " . While I have been living with the understanding of

BPD for a year or so, I continue to be amazed at the predictability

and universality of these behavoirs.

My father is still alive and from the time we were little kids had

us comfort our mother. Why? Because the burden was too great for

him? Because he wanted to get out of the way of her wrath? Because

he felt caring for her was his greatest duty? I love him, feel

frustrated at his weakness, feel sad for him (he has chosen to be

stuck in the situaiton), etc.

While my sisters and I are starting to pull out of the divisiveness

this illness has imposed on our family, for a long time, it was just

one sister and I that saw the problem - though we still approached

it differently and fought.

My father alternatively says (1)there is a problem " but every family

has dysfunction " and (2)just shuts down. My other sister was split

bad and for a long still yearned afer my mother's approval. She is

finally seeing my mother's problem and working her way out of the

hole all of the abuse caused her. Now, all three sibs see the

problem and are finally working together (slowly, with stumbles) to

hold our mother responsible for her behavoir.

My sister (split bad) used to see me as harsh and cold for being

distant with my mom (this I did even before learning about BPD), and

my sister was especially angry with me since I had been split good.

To be honest, it is only because my sister decided to take control

of her life, get help, that all the hostility between us was finally

able to subside. The biggest turn-around moment I think was a time

(recent) when my mother acted out and no once responded. For the

first time, everyone saw this could be done and life would go on.

I don't know the specifics of your relationship with your siblings.

In my experience, I ultimately had to say to my sister that I

thought our mother was not okay and that, while I wished I could be

more compassionate to her, for the time being, I was having trouble

doing that. I explained that staying distant from our mother

(talking politely but not being very loving - ie: caretaking) was

the kindest thing I could do because going further might push me to

avoid her (our mother) altogether.

I planted the seed in my sister's head that our mother was not okay

but did not push it (well, I did at one time push it, but finally

figured I needed to back off). I remained distant with our mother

and explained to my sibs that, for whatever reason, this is what I

needed to do for the time being.

Ultimately, we all seem to be understanding something is wrong and

can now discuss it without so much tension. I really didn't do

anything to make this happen except try to not alienate my sibs when

we were at different spots.

Thank you for posting. I am fairly new at processing this all as

well and it is helpful to read about your experience and thoughts.

Caitlyn

" everyone else in my family (except my brother) either denies the

problem entirely or minimizes everything. I am the one my mother

chose as the " bad " child. I have suffered so long with being told

all of these bad things about myself when I knew they weren't true.

Or being " assigned " (by my mother) bad motives for everything I did,

when my motives were pure and good. I have gotten to the point

where I don't know what's real or true. Everything is, and always

has been, all about her. Nothing has ever mattered except what she

wanted, felt, thought, etc... even when she was being completely

nonsensical. My father (he's dead now) told all of us kids (a

direct quote), " to make her life happen happy " . That's right, we

were in charge of her happiness, which incidently, we were never

able to achieve. Imagine that!!! I feel so frustrated! I feel

like I'm going to implode! What do I do now? Any advice would be

appreciated. Thanks! "

abstract thoughts....in rhyme

djokieff.com

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+

countries) for 2¢/min or less.

[Guest guest]

Dawn, I am glad that you posted today. You have every right to feel the way you

do about your brother, your mother and yourself. How horrific to always have

this hope that one day your father would come home and rescue you and your

brother adn then to find that your mother lied and lied and lied. BPD's

insanity may not always take away your life physically, but emotionally they can

with continued contact and not building boundaries and getting to know yourself.

I do hope that you make room in your life for yourself and really get to know

who you are, no matter what your mother's needs are. She has had a life to

build up her support for her later years. It's time to live yours.

Take good care,

Greg.

Dawn O'Kieff wrote:

hello....

I have only posted a couple of times but never went into too much depth..

My mother is aging and although i have a brother - i am the only caretaker for

her. She does not drive and has no friends and so i am basically it. My brother

lives out of town and even if he didn't he might as well be....(as when he did

he was never around)

My father was killed in Vietnam when i was 5 years old, my brother 10. My mum

refused to accept his death my father was killed in a plane crash and the

remains of the crew were never fully identified, as a result my mum believed it

that he survived the crash - anyone who believed otherwise couldn't love him

otherwise they wouldn't give up. Anyway, needless to say - my brother and I

believe that he was alive - for years and years and years... (until i was 19 -

believe it or not!) In the meantime, she went through depressions and was not

" actively " present in our lives. Her mood swings were up and down - lasting a

day or hours. She would tell us that she was better off dead and then pretended

one time that she had taken pills and was laying in her bed pretending to be

dying. - i was 7 at this time and remember crying hysterically for hours. I grew

up believing that i had to protect her, and would do anything so that she

wouldn't cry, get upset and go off to bed.

There were fights in our house all the time - both my brother and i didn't love

her she would say and that her life was hell and that everyone was against her -

even her own children. I grew up (as you all did) with this on a daily basis - I

always thought my dad would come home and somehow save us from the crazy world

we lived in - but ofcourse he never did. When i reached 15 my mother decided to

tell me how horrible my father had been to her - that he had hit her and had

affairs etc....... i was devistated......she had had him on this pedestal all

these years and then suddenly without warning she tore him down. I refused to

believe the stories she told of him and was confused how someone could love

someone so much and grieve for him and then say the things she did about him. It

was only in the last few years did i realize there was one constant thing in all

the issues with all our families - my mother! She has fought with every single

one of them and now only

really has me and my brother left in her life. I have struggled for years for

feeling so responsible for her happiness - for her life and I could never

understand why............until recently. I am just beginning to understand all

of this and reading about it as much as i can. I have a very difficult time with

the FOG and struggle with it constantly. Whenever I leave her (after taking her

for groceries etc) and I pull away from her driveway and she is waving goodbye -

i get so many mixed emotions (especially when we have had a good visit) i look

at her and feel this ache - I think that time is so short and she might not be

here much longer and I am scared to death thinking of life without her. I look

at her and feel so sad to know how alone she is (working on understanding that

these have been her choices)

Anyway - sorry for the long post - I guess it just gets overwhelming

sometimes...and you don't realize how much until you start to write or talk

about it!!

dawn

vivir4paz wrote:

Cloverbee,

I relate to so much of what you are saying. The first I read of BPD

was online and then " Understanding the BL Mother " . I am now

reading " SWOE " . While I have been living with the understanding of

BPD for a year or so, I continue to be amazed at the predictability

and universality of these behavoirs.

My father is still alive and from the time we were little kids had

us comfort our mother. Why? Because the burden was too great for

him? Because he wanted to get out of the way of her wrath? Because

he felt caring for her was his greatest duty? I love him, feel

frustrated at his weakness, feel sad for him (he has chosen to be

stuck in the situaiton), etc.

While my sisters and I are starting to pull out of the divisiveness

this illness has imposed on our family, for a long time, it was just

one sister and I that saw the problem - though we still approached

it differently and fought.

My father alternatively says (1)there is a problem " but every family

has dysfunction " and (2)just shuts down. My other sister was split

bad and for a long still yearned afer my mother's approval. She is

finally seeing my mother's problem and working her way out of the

hole all of the abuse caused her. Now, all three sibs see the

problem and are finally working together (slowly, with stumbles) to

hold our mother responsible for her behavoir.

My sister (split bad) used to see me as harsh and cold for being

distant with my mom (this I did even before learning about BPD), and

my sister was especially angry with me since I had been split good.

To be honest, it is only because my sister decided to take control

of her life, get help, that all the hostility between us was finally

able to subside. The biggest turn-around moment I think was a time

(recent) when my mother acted out and no once responded. For the

first time, everyone saw this could be done and life would go on.

I don't know the specifics of your relationship with your siblings.

In my experience, I ultimately had to say to my sister that I

thought our mother was not okay and that, while I wished I could be

more compassionate to her, for the time being, I was having trouble

doing that. I explained that staying distant from our mother

(talking politely but not being very loving - ie: caretaking) was

the kindest thing I could do because going further might push me to

avoid her (our mother) altogether.

I planted the seed in my sister's head that our mother was not okay

but did not push it (well, I did at one time push it, but finally

figured I needed to back off). I remained distant with our mother

and explained to my sibs that, for whatever reason, this is what I

needed to do for the time being.

Ultimately, we all seem to be understanding something is wrong and

can now discuss it without so much tension. I really didn't do

anything to make this happen except try to not alienate my sibs when

we were at different spots.

Thank you for posting. I am fairly new at processing this all as

well and it is helpful to read about your experience and thoughts.

Caitlyn

" everyone else in my family (except my brother) either denies the

problem entirely or minimizes everything. I am the one my mother

chose as the " bad " child. I have suffered so long with being told

all of these bad things about myself when I knew they weren't true.

Or being " assigned " (by my mother) bad motives for everything I did,

when my motives were pure and good. I have gotten to the point

where I don't know what's real or true. Everything is, and always

has been, all about her. Nothing has ever mattered except what she

wanted, felt, thought, etc... even when she was being completely

nonsensical. My father (he's dead now) told all of us kids (a

direct quote), " to make her life happen happy " . That's right, we

were in charge of her happiness, which incidently, we were never

able to achieve. Imagine that!!! I feel so frustrated! I feel

like I'm going to implode! What do I do now? Any advice would be

appreciated. Thanks! "

abstract thoughts....in rhyme

djokieff.com

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+

countries) for 2¢/min or less.

[Guest guest]

Welcome, Cloverbee...it doesn't sound ridiculous to me at all. When

my therapist first told me that my father likely had BPD, it was

quite jarring. All my life I carried this guilt that I was somehow

crazy and defective, that I really was the crappy person/daughter my

parents made me out to be. She recommended that I read Stop Walking

on Eggshells. It was a huge ephipany for me, but also confusing...I

was mixed between relief that I wasn't nuts, denial that my father

has a PD, and overwhelmed by all this new information that I needed

to somehow digest and assimilate into my life. It does take time to

sink in from the eyes/ears to the brain...and eventually filter into

the heart. As you know already from experience, you can't be in

charge of someone else's happiness...but you can be responsible for

creating your own.

Being here is a great start in your healing process. This is a very

supportive group and I'm betting you'll come across posts that make

you wonder if someone was peering through the window of your

childhood. I'm glad you're here.

Cheers,

Sakura

>

> Hi all~

>

> Well, I have just finally found out what to call my mother's

> bizarre behavior, BPD. I first found out about the book, Stop

> Walking on Eggshells and from there to Surviving a Borderline

> Parent. Wow! I did not know that her behavior had a name! I

know

> I must sound ridiculous, but this is a real epiphany for me. I'm

> having all kinds of emotions. I'm glad to know that this is a

real

> situation as everyone else in my family (except my brother) either

> denies the problem entirely or minimizes everything. I am the one

> my mother chose as the " bad " child. I have suffered so long with

> being told all of these bad things about myself when I knew they

> weren't true. Or being " assigned " (by my mother) bad motives for

> everything I did, when my motives were pure and good. I have

gotten

> to the point where I don't know what's real or true. Everything

is,

> and always has been, all about her. Nothing has ever mattered

> except what she wanted, felt, thought, etc... even when she was

> being completely nonsensical. My father (he's dead now) told all

of

> us kids (a direct quote), " to make her life happen happy " . That's

> right, we were in charge of her happiness, which incidently, we

were

> never able to achieve. Imagine that!!! I feel so frustrated! I

> feel like I'm going to implode! What do I do now? Any advice

would

> be appreciated. Thanks!

>

[Guest guest]

thank you - and you are right about knowing that what has happened to them has

been their decision....and that i am NOT responsible at all and that I can NEVER

make her happy..... it's so strange to read all these stories and connect so

much with them - the hardest thing for me to understand about this illness is

the meaness. The horrible hurtful things said or actions done - i just struggle

so much to get that.....and i guess i probably never will. How old is your mum

...? I think you are right about greiving for something you never had

- it's difficult to understand that growing up - not until now have i realized

that is what i have been hoping and praying to have all these years....

Sometime i wonder if I will have a sense of freedom when my mum passes - and

then the thought of her passing is something that i am having a hard time

thinking about. I think because i know that it will be the end of something

that can never be changed - and also because she

has been force in my life - my existance almost... i know that sounds dramatic,

but it feels so true.

dawn

Beckwith wrote:

Hi Dawn,

I read your e-mail with tears in my eyes. My mother overdosed when I was 14, but

for you to have gone through that at the age of 7. My heart aches, as I know how

hard that was for me when I was twice as old. The fear and anxiety and most of

all the guilt that that causes children. I really think that the guilt that they

hold over our heads is one of their strongest " weapons " .

I know what you mean when you say that your Mom told you that everyone was

against her. My mother always thought that people were making snide remarks to

her or didn't show her the proper amount of respect. I remember when I was

little, if we were going to go somewhere, I would close my eyes and wish that no

one would say anything wrong to her. I knew that we kids would have to somehow

make it up to her for hours or days if she thought she had been slighted. Of

course, she usually felt slighted by something, but (surprise, surprise) nothing

we could say or do made any difference. Mostly it was my sister and I who tried

to make her feel better. My brother just washed his hands of her long ago.

When you said that when you visit with your Mom and you've had an especially

good visit, as you leave, you feel an ache. I know exactly, exactly, how you

feel. I know that even though so many things were wrong, she was and is still my

Mom. I see her getting so frail and feel like I want to make everything right

before anything happens to her. I feel like I only have a little while. Then I

have to understand that a great relationship cannot happen when only one person

really wants it. What's really hard to realize is that our Moms made the

decisions to continue to be manipulative and (in my mother's case) really

hurtful all of their adult lives. I know that I have cried and cried over the

fact that I have never had the mother/daughter relationship that I have

desperately wanted. I just have to try and realize that I cannot make my mother

feel something that she doesn't. It's so hard to let go of all of the guilt.

You sound like a very, very attentive daughter, and I think that you should try

and realize all of the good that you do for your Mom, even after what you were

put through. Some people will just walk away and say " forget this " . I think to

have been treated this way and still be loving proves that you have a whole lot

of inner strength and character.

Thanks for writing. I hope to hear from you again. Take good care.

Sincerely,

Cloverbee ()

Dawn O'Kieff wrote:

hello....

I have only posted a couple of times but never went into too much depth..

My mother is aging and although i have a brother - i am the only caretaker for

her. She does not drive and has no friends and so i am basically it. My brother

lives out of town and even if he didn't he might as well be....(as when he did

he was never around)

My father was killed in Vietnam when i was 5 years old, my brother 10. My mum

refused to accept his death my father was killed in a plane crash and the

remains of the crew were never fully identified, as a result my mum believed it

that he survived the crash - anyone who believed otherwise couldn't love him

otherwise they wouldn't give up. Anyway, needless to say - my brother and I

believe that he was alive - for years and years and years... (until i was 19 -

believe it or not!) In the meantime, she went through depressions and was not

" actively " present in our lives. Her mood swings were up and down - lasting a

day or hours. She would tell us that she was better off dead and then pretended

one time that she had taken pills and was laying in her bed pretending to be

dying. - i was 7 at this time and remember crying hysterically for hours. I grew

up believing that i had to protect her, and would do anything so that she

wouldn't cry, get upset and go off to bed.

There were fights in our house all the time - both my brother and i didn't love

her she would say and that her life was hell and that everyone was against her -

even her own children. I grew up (as you all did) with this on a daily basis - I

always thought my dad would come home and somehow save us from the crazy world

we lived in - but ofcourse he never did. When i reached 15 my mother decided to

tell me how horrible my father had been to her - that he had hit her and had

affairs etc....... i was devistated......she had had him on this pedestal all

these years and then suddenly without warning she tore him down. I refused to

believe the stories she told of him and was confused how someone could love

someone so much and grieve for him and then say the things she did about him. It

was only in the last few years did i realize there was one constant thing in all

the issues with all our families - my mother! She has fought with every single

one of them and now only

really has me and my brother left in her life. I have struggled for years for

feeling so responsible for her happiness - for her life and I could never

understand why............until recently. I am just beginning to understand all

of this and reading about it as much as i can. I have a very difficult time with

the FOG and struggle with it constantly. Whenever I leave her (after taking her

for groceries etc) and I pull away from her driveway and she is waving goodbye -

i get so many mixed emotions (especially when we have had a good visit) i look

at her and feel this ache - I think that time is so short and she might not be

here much longer and I am scared to death thinking of life without her. I look

at her and feel so sad to know how alone she is (working on understanding that

these have been her choices)

Anyway - sorry for the long post - I guess it just gets overwhelming

sometimes...and you don't realize how much until you start to write or talk

about it!!

dawn

vivir4paz wrote:

Cloverbee,

I relate to so much of what you are saying. The first I read of BPD

was online and then " Understanding the BL Mother " . I am now

reading " SWOE " . While I have been living with the understanding of

BPD for a year or so, I continue to be amazed at the predictability

and universality of these behavoirs.

My father is still alive and from the time we were little kids had

us comfort our mother. Why? Because the burden was too great for

him? Because he wanted to get out of the way of her wrath? Because

he felt caring for her was his greatest duty? I love him, feel

frustrated at his weakness, feel sad for him (he has chosen to be

stuck in the situaiton), etc.

While my sisters and I are starting to pull out of the divisiveness

this illness has imposed on our family, for a long time, it was just

one sister and I that saw the problem - though we still approached

it differently and fought.

My father alternatively says (1)there is a problem " but every family

has dysfunction " and (2)just shuts down. My other sister was split

bad and for a long still yearned afer my mother's approval. She is

finally seeing my mother's problem and working her way out of the

hole all of the abuse caused her. Now, all three sibs see the

problem and are finally working together (slowly, with stumbles) to

hold our mother responsible for her behavoir.

My sister (split bad) used to see me as harsh and cold for being

distant with my mom (this I did even before learning about BPD), and

my sister was especially angry with me since I had been split good.

To be honest, it is only because my sister decided to take control

of her life, get help, that all the hostility between us was finally

able to subside. The biggest turn-around moment I think was a time

(recent) when my mother acted out and no once responded. For the

first time, everyone saw this could be done and life would go on.

I don't know the specifics of your relationship with your siblings.

In my experience, I ultimately had to say to my sister that I

thought our mother was not okay and that, while I wished I could be

more compassionate to her, for the time being, I was having trouble

doing that. I explained that staying distant from our mother

(talking politely but not being very loving - ie: caretaking) was

the kindest thing I could do because going further might push me to

avoid her (our mother) altogether.

I planted the seed in my sister's head that our mother was not okay

but did not push it (well, I did at one time push it, but finally

figured I needed to back off). I remained distant with our mother

and explained to my sibs that, for whatever reason, this is what I

needed to do for the time being.

Ultimately, we all seem to be understanding something is wrong and

can now discuss it without so much tension. I really didn't do

anything to make this happen except try to not alienate my sibs when

we were at different spots.

Thank you for posting. I am fairly new at processing this all as

well and it is helpful to read about your experience and thoughts.

Caitlyn

" everyone else in my family (except my brother) either denies the

problem entirely or minimizes everything. I am the one my mother

chose as the " bad " child. I have suffered so long with being told

all of these bad things about myself when I knew they weren't true.

Or being " assigned " (by my mother) bad motives for everything I did,

when my motives were pure and good. I have gotten to the point

where I don't know what's real or true. Everything is, and always

has been, all about her. Nothing has ever mattered except what she

wanted, felt, thought, etc... even when she was being completely

nonsensical. My father (he's dead now) told all of us kids (a

direct quote), " to make her life happen happy " . That's right, we

were in charge of her happiness, which incidently, we were never

able to achieve. Imagine that!!! I feel so frustrated! I feel

like I'm going to implode! What do I do now? Any advice would be

appreciated. Thanks! "

abstract thoughts....in rhyme

djokieff.com

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+

countries) for 2¢/min or less.

[Guest guest]

Caitlin -- I loved your post. It gave me a shot of courage because

I'm living the same thing. My nada is trying her best to " silent

treatment " me into shape, and I'm not responding. Sometimes I feel

funny, but then read things like your post, and I know I can keep

going.

My fada continually throws me to her, too. Defends her -- does her

bidding. I have often wondered the same things you mentioned: Does

he relish that " Knight in Shining Armour " role? Does he just want

her off his back? Either way, it doesn't leave much room for me.

You showed great courage when you stood up to your mother long ago --

even before you knew this madness had a name, or had read books on

coping strategies. I was so lost before I found out that it had a

name, and that there were so many others who had suffered like me.

It's been invaluable. Life changing.

Kyla

>

> Cloverbee,

>

> I relate to so much of what you are saying. The first I read of

BPD

> was online and then " Understanding the BL Mother " . I am now

> reading " SWOE " . While I have been living with the understanding

of

> BPD for a year or so, I continue to be amazed at the

predictability

> and universality of these behavoirs.

>

> My father is still alive and from the time we were little kids had

> us comfort our mother. Why? Because the burden was too great for

> him? Because he wanted to get out of the way of her wrath?

Because

> he felt caring for her was his greatest duty? I love him, feel

> frustrated at his weakness, feel sad for him (he has chosen to be

> stuck in the situaiton), etc.

>

> While my sisters and I are starting to pull out of the

divisiveness

> this illness has imposed on our family, for a long time, it was

just

> one sister and I that saw the problem - though we still approached

> it differently and fought.

>

> My father alternatively says (1)there is a problem " but every

family

> has dysfunction " and (2)just shuts down. My other sister was

split

> bad and for a long still yearned afer my mother's approval. She

is

> finally seeing my mother's problem and working her way out of the

> hole all of the abuse caused her. Now, all three sibs see the

> problem and are finally working together (slowly, with stumbles)

to

> hold our mother responsible for her behavoir.

>

> My sister (split bad) used to see me as harsh and cold for being

> distant with my mom (this I did even before learning about BPD),

and

> my sister was especially angry with me since I had been split

good.

> To be honest, it is only because my sister decided to take control

> of her life, get help, that all the hostility between us was

finally

> able to subside. The biggest turn-around moment I think was a

time

> (recent) when my mother acted out and no once responded. For the

> first time, everyone saw this could be done and life would go on.

>

> I don't know the specifics of your relationship with your

siblings.

> In my experience, I ultimately had to say to my sister that I

> thought our mother was not okay and that, while I wished I could

be

> more compassionate to her, for the time being, I was having

trouble

> doing that. I explained that staying distant from our mother

> (talking politely but not being very loving - ie: caretaking) was

> the kindest thing I could do because going further might push me

to

> avoid her (our mother) altogether.

>

> I planted the seed in my sister's head that our mother was not

okay

> but did not push it (well, I did at one time push it, but finally

> figured I needed to back off). I remained distant with our mother

> and explained to my sibs that, for whatever reason, this is what I

> needed to do for the time being.

>

> Ultimately, we all seem to be understanding something is wrong and

> can now discuss it without so much tension. I really didn't do

> anything to make this happen except try to not alienate my sibs

when

> we were at different spots.

>

> Thank you for posting. I am fairly new at processing this all as

> well and it is helpful to read about your experience and thoughts.

>

> Caitlyn

>

>

>

>

>

> " everyone else in my family (except my brother) either denies the

> problem entirely or minimizes everything. I am the one my mother

> chose as the " bad " child. I have suffered so long with being told

> all of these bad things about myself when I knew they weren't

true.

> Or being " assigned " (by my mother) bad motives for everything I

did,

> when my motives were pure and good. I have gotten to the point

> where I don't know what's real or true. Everything is, and always

> has been, all about her. Nothing has ever mattered except what

she

> wanted, felt, thought, etc... even when she was being completely

> nonsensical. My father (he's dead now) told all of us kids (a

> direct quote), " to make her life happen happy " . That's right, we

> were in charge of her happiness, which incidently, we were never

> able to achieve. Imagine that!!! I feel so frustrated! I feel

> like I'm going to implode! What do I do now? Any advice would be

> appreciated. Thanks! "

>

[Guest guest]

Several years ago, my mother got breast cancer. I reacted stronger

than I expected and remember thinking " I don't want to lose my

mommy " . This was strange because I hadn't called her anything

but " mom " for decades and because I realized by that point that she

had not really parented me. I think I was mourning the mother I

never had and who I yearned for and also mourning her life that

seemed to be ending before it ever got started.

She ended up recovering. When we were all back to regular life, one

day she cried to me on the phone about how much she missed the time

when she had the cancer because at that time she knew how much

everyone loved her.

Everything with her is such a tangled mess of emotions - anger that

she wants to confine our lives to her care, anger that she is so

mean and hateful to us, frustration that she won't do the simplest

things to help herself, sadness that she doesn't fit in anywhere for

long and genuinely feels alone, even (especially?) in the midst of

family.

As Dawn and have recently expressed, my mother also

frequently threatened suicide while we were growing up. One time

when I was eight, I remember her locking herself in the bathroom

with a bottle of pills. I was outside the door sobbing and begging

her to not take them. My mother continued to threaten my younger

sister with suicide through the time she was in college. My mother

still alludes to taking her life, but hasn't directly threatened for

a long time.

Until recently, I would come home from every visit with my parents

overwhelmed with a grief. It would last for a couple of weeks

during which time I just worked and then isolated myself, consumed

with sadness and tears. I felt guilty that I should move closer to

my parents and spend more time with them. And I wondered how I

would exist if I did that? Tangles and tangles... Is it her fault

she is the way she is? Is she helpless?

I feel for those of you who are on your own and trying to continue

to offer companionship to your mothers while claiming your own lives

at the same time. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences.

Although I am fortunate to be making this journey with my sisters, I

think about it much more than they do (for better or worse) and am

still struggling largely on my own to try to understand my mother.

It is a welcome experience to hear from others who are also engaging

this path.

Caitlyn

_________________________

" I think you are right about greiving for something you never had -

it's difficult to understand that growing up - not until now have i

realized that is what i have been hoping and praying to have all

these years.... Sometime i wonder if I will have a sense of freedom

when my mum passes - and then the thought of her passing is

something that i am having a hard time thinking about. I think

because i know that it will be the end of something that can never

be changed - and also because she has been force in my life - my

existance almost... i know that sounds dramatic, but it feels so

true. - dawn

_____________________

Hi Dawn, I read your e-mail with tears in my eyes. My mother

overdosed when I was 14, but for you to have gone through that at

the age of 7. My heart aches, as I know how hard that was for me

when I was twice as old. The fear and anxiety and most of all the

guilt that that causes children. I really think that the guilt that

they hold over our heads is one of their strongest " weapons " . -

Cloverbee ()

[Guest guest]

Cloverbee23, What you say is totally normal and makes all the sense

in the world. Welcome to the group! I still have epiphanies and I

have not spoken to my nada for 4 years, but sometimes I just come to

a realization of one of her behaviors and how it is so deeply linked

to the BDP. This site has really help further my learning and

understanding of all the craziness. They make you feel validated and

after being raised in " homes " like we were validation is an

important thing. I know with all my heart you will feel love and

support here. These people are like a family. Welcome and thank you

for coming here! Love Lizzy

>

> Hi all~

>

> Well, I have just finally found out what to call my mother's

> bizarre behavior, BPD. I first found out about the book, Stop

> Walking on Eggshells and from there to Surviving a Borderline

> Parent. Wow! I did not know that her behavior had a name! I

know

> I must sound ridiculous, but this is a real epiphany for me. I'm

> having all kinds of emotions. I'm glad to know that this is a

real

> situation as everyone else in my family (except my brother) either

> denies the problem entirely or minimizes everything. I am the one

> my mother chose as the " bad " child. I have suffered so long with

> being told all of these bad things about myself when I knew they

> weren't true. Or being " assigned " (by my mother) bad motives for

> everything I did, when my motives were pure and good. I have

gotten

> to the point where I don't know what's real or true. Everything

is,

> and always has been, all about her. Nothing has ever mattered

> except what she wanted, felt, thought, etc... even when she was

> being completely nonsensical. My father (he's dead now) told all

of

> us kids (a direct quote), " to make her life happen happy " . That's

> right, we were in charge of her happiness, which incidently, we

were

> never able to achieve. Imagine that!!! I feel so frustrated! I

> feel like I'm going to implode! What do I do now? Any advice

would

> be appreciated. Thanks!

>

[Guest guest]

When your mother missed the time when she had breast cancer, that is

in line with BPDs who like the " victim " role.

My nada is currently playing the victim card regarding her own

mother's approaching death. (although grandnada keeps beating the

odds! She's 90 but strong!)

My nada likes to use her mother's health situation as her victim

card for everything --- " feel sorry for me " tears at the slightest

thing, barking at everybody, " forgetting " birthdays (ignoring them

is more like it).....All the while my nada keeps saying how she

hates going and taking care of her mother, but yet, goes and does it

for weeks on end. Whatever she can do to keep herself in the victim

role, she does it.

>

> Several years ago, my mother got breast cancer. I reacted

stronger

> than I expected and remember thinking " I don't want to lose my

> mommy " . This was strange because I hadn't called her anything

> but " mom " for decades and because I realized by that point that

she

> had not really parented me. I think I was mourning the mother I

> never had and who I yearned for and also mourning her life that

> seemed to be ending before it ever got started.

>

> She ended up recovering. When we were all back to regular life,

one

> day she cried to me on the phone about how much she missed the

time

> when she had the cancer because at that time she knew how much

> everyone loved her.

>

> Everything with her is such a tangled mess of emotions - anger

that

> she wants to confine our lives to her care, anger that she is so

> mean and hateful to us, frustration that she won't do the simplest

> things to help herself, sadness that she doesn't fit in anywhere

for

> long and genuinely feels alone, even (especially?) in the midst of

> family.

>

> As Dawn and have recently expressed, my mother also

> frequently threatened suicide while we were growing up. One time

> when I was eight, I remember her locking herself in the bathroom

> with a bottle of pills. I was outside the door sobbing and

begging

> her to not take them. My mother continued to threaten my younger

> sister with suicide through the time she was in college. My

mother

> still alludes to taking her life, but hasn't directly threatened

for

> a long time.

>

> Until recently, I would come home from every visit with my parents

> overwhelmed with a grief. It would last for a couple of weeks

> during which time I just worked and then isolated myself, consumed

> with sadness and tears. I felt guilty that I should move closer

to

> my parents and spend more time with them. And I wondered how I

> would exist if I did that? Tangles and tangles... Is it her

fault

> she is the way she is? Is she helpless?

>

> I feel for those of you who are on your own and trying to continue

> to offer companionship to your mothers while claiming your own

lives

> at the same time. Thank you so much for sharing your

experiences.

> Although I am fortunate to be making this journey with my sisters,

I

> think about it much more than they do (for better or worse) and am

> still struggling largely on my own to try to understand my mother.

> It is a welcome experience to hear from others who are also

engaging

> this path.

>

> Caitlyn

>

> _________________________

>

> " I think you are right about greiving for something you never had -

> it's difficult to understand that growing up - not until now have

i

> realized that is what i have been hoping and praying to have all

> these years.... Sometime i wonder if I will have a sense of

freedom

> when my mum passes - and then the thought of her passing is

> something that i am having a hard time thinking about. I think

> because i know that it will be the end of something that can never

> be changed - and also because she has been force in my life - my

> existance almost... i know that sounds dramatic, but it feels so

> true. - dawn

> _____________________

>

> Hi Dawn, I read your e-mail with tears in my eyes. My mother

> overdosed when I was 14, but for you to have gone through that at

> the age of 7. My heart aches, as I know how hard that was for me

> when I was twice as old. The fear and anxiety and most of all the

> guilt that that causes children. I really think that the guilt

that

> they hold over our heads is one of their strongest " weapons " . -

> Cloverbee ()

>

[Guest guest]

Dawn,

Something you wrote put words to the feelings that I have been dealing with

lately: their meaness. I had a diagnosed psychopath for a father, yet, after

the divorce, I stayed with him b/c his abuse (included all forms, unfortunately)

was easier for me to cope with than my mother's. psychopaths are pretty

predictible. You always try and figure one step ahead of what they want and

make that happen and they usually leave you alone. But with bpd nada, she is

totally insane and unpredictable. And underneath it all is that core of

meaness. And this was the lady that was supposed to mirror love and praise and

guidance and all the things that lead a child into an individuated adult. But

no. They don't want that separation = they raised us like prisoners from the

inside out.

When my dad was killed in his plane crash in '99, I grieved and grieved and

grieved for years. but you know what I really was grieving (it's very complex)

most of all? The loss of the fantasy dad that I had in my head and heart.

Think about it for a sec. When you are about to go on vacation and the days are

growing nearer to departure; that's some of the best time of the entire trip,

b/c it is all in the head; those sunny beaches, not a cloud in the sky, etc.

Fantasy was what we had as a kid. Our biggest tool to keep our hopes and

ourselves alive. but we are built so strongly, we can even let that go when we

are ready and accept reality. I dunno, just rambling some thoughts.

Take great care of yourself, Dawn.

Greg.

Dawn O'Kieff wrote:

thank you - and you are right about knowing that what has happened to

them has been their decision....and that i am NOT responsible at all and that I

can NEVER make her happy..... it's so strange to read all these stories and

connect so much with them - the hardest thing for me to understand about this

illness is the meaness. The horrible hurtful things said or actions done - i

just struggle so much to get that.....and i guess i probably never will. How old

is your mum ...? I think you are right about greiving for something you

never had - it's difficult to understand that growing up - not until now have i

realized that is what i have been hoping and praying to have all these years....

Sometime i wonder if I will have a sense of freedom when my mum passes - and

then the thought of her passing is something that i am having a hard time

thinking about. I think because i know that it will be the end of something that

can never be changed - and also because she

has been force in my life - my existance almost... i know that sounds dramatic,

but it feels so true.

dawn

Beckwith wrote:

Hi Dawn,

I read your e-mail with tears in my eyes. My mother overdosed when I was 14, but

for you to have gone through that at the age of 7. My heart aches, as I know how

hard that was for me when I was twice as old. The fear and anxiety and most of

all the guilt that that causes children. I really think that the guilt that they

hold over our heads is one of their strongest " weapons " .

I know what you mean when you say that your Mom told you that everyone was

against her. My mother always thought that people were making snide remarks to

her or didn't show her the proper amount of respect. I remember when I was

little, if we were going to go somewhere, I would close my eyes and wish that no

one would say anything wrong to her. I knew that we kids would have to somehow

make it up to her for hours or days if she thought she had been slighted. Of

course, she usually felt slighted by something, but (surprise, surprise) nothing

we could say or do made any difference. Mostly it was my sister and I who tried

to make her feel better. My brother just washed his hands of her long ago.

When you said that when you visit with your Mom and you've had an especially

good visit, as you leave, you feel an ache. I know exactly, exactly, how you

feel. I know that even though so many things were wrong, she was and is still my

Mom. I see her getting so frail and feel like I want to make everything right

before anything happens to her. I feel like I only have a little while. Then I

have to understand that a great relationship cannot happen when only one person

really wants it. What's really hard to realize is that our Moms made the

decisions to continue to be manipulative and (in my mother's case) really

hurtful all of their adult lives. I know that I have cried and cried over the

fact that I have never had the mother/daughter relationship that I have

desperately wanted. I just have to try and realize that I cannot make my mother

feel something that she doesn't. It's so hard to let go of all of the guilt.

You sound like a very, very attentive daughter, and I think that you should try

and realize all of the good that you do for your Mom, even after what you were

put through. Some people will just walk away and say " forget this " . I think to

have been treated this way and still be loving proves that you have a whole lot

of inner strength and character.

Thanks for writing. I hope to hear from you again. Take good care.

Sincerely,

Cloverbee ()

Dawn O'Kieff wrote:

hello....

I have only posted a couple of times but never went into too much depth..

My mother is aging and although i have a brother - i am the only caretaker for

her. She does not drive and has no friends and so i am basically it. My brother

lives out of town and even if he didn't he might as well be....(as when he did

he was never around)

My father was killed in Vietnam when i was 5 years old, my brother 10. My mum

refused to accept his death my father was killed in a plane crash and the

remains of the crew were never fully identified, as a result my mum believed it

that he survived the crash - anyone who believed otherwise couldn't love him

otherwise they wouldn't give up. Anyway, needless to say - my brother and I

believe that he was alive - for years and years and years... (until i was 19 -

believe it or not!) In the meantime, she went through depressions and was not

" actively " present in our lives. Her mood swings were up and down - lasting a

day or hours. She would tell us that she was better off dead and then pretended

one time that she had taken pills and was laying in her bed pretending to be

dying. - i was 7 at this time and remember crying hysterically for hours. I grew

up believing that i had to protect her, and would do anything so that she

wouldn't cry, get upset and go off to bed.

There were fights in our house all the time - both my brother and i didn't love

her she would say and that her life was hell and that everyone was against her -

even her own children. I grew up (as you all did) with this on a daily basis - I

always thought my dad would come home and somehow save us from the crazy world

we lived in - but ofcourse he never did. When i reached 15 my mother decided to

tell me how horrible my father had been to her - that he had hit her and had

affairs etc....... i was devistated......she had had him on this pedestal all

these years and then suddenly without warning she tore him down. I refused to

believe the stories she told of him and was confused how someone could love

someone so much and grieve for him and then say the things she did about him. It

was only in the last few years did i realize there was one constant thing in all

the issues with all our families - my mother! She has fought with every single

one of them and now only

really has me and my brother left in her life. I have struggled for years for

feeling so responsible for her happiness - for her life and I could never

understand why............until recently. I am just beginning to understand all

of this and reading about it as much as i can. I have a very difficult time with

the FOG and struggle with it constantly. Whenever I leave her (after taking her

for groceries etc) and I pull away from her driveway and she is waving goodbye -

i get so many mixed emotions (especially when we have had a good visit) i look

at her and feel this ache - I think that time is so short and she might not be

here much longer and I am scared to death thinking of life without her. I look

at her and feel so sad to know how alone she is (working on understanding that

these have been her choices)

Anyway - sorry for the long post - I guess it just gets overwhelming

sometimes...and you don't realize how much until you start to write or talk

about it!!

dawn

vivir4paz wrote:

Cloverbee,

I relate to so much of what you are saying. The first I read of BPD

was online and then " Understanding the BL Mother " . I am now

reading " SWOE " . While I have been living with the understanding of

BPD for a year or so, I continue to be amazed at the predictability

and universality of these behavoirs.

My father is still alive and from the time we were little kids had

us comfort our mother. Why? Because the burden was too great for

him? Because he wanted to get out of the way of her wrath? Because

he felt caring for her was his greatest duty? I love him, feel

frustrated at his weakness, feel sad for him (he has chosen to be

stuck in the situaiton), etc.

While my sisters and I are starting to pull out of the divisiveness

this illness has imposed on our family, for a long time, it was just

one sister and I that saw the problem - though we still approached

it differently and fought.

My father alternatively says (1)there is a problem " but every family

has dysfunction " and (2)just shuts down. My other sister was split

bad and for a long still yearned afer my mother's approval. She is

finally seeing my mother's problem and working her way out of the

hole all of the abuse caused her. Now, all three sibs see the

problem and are finally working together (slowly, with stumbles) to

hold our mother responsible for her behavoir.

My sister (split bad) used to see me as harsh and cold for being

distant with my mom (this I did even before learning about BPD), and

my sister was especially angry with me since I had been split good.

To be honest, it is only because my sister decided to take control

of her life, get help, that all the hostility between us was finally

able to subside. The biggest turn-around moment I think was a time

(recent) when my mother acted out and no once responded. For the

first time, everyone saw this could be done and life would go on.

I don't know the specifics of your relationship with your siblings.

In my experience, I ultimately had to say to my sister that I

thought our mother was not okay and that, while I wished I could be

more compassionate to her, for the time being, I was having trouble

doing that. I explained that staying distant from our mother

(talking politely but not being very loving - ie: caretaking) was

the kindest thing I could do because going further might push me to

avoid her (our mother) altogether.

I planted the seed in my sister's head that our mother was not okay

but did not push it (well, I did at one time push it, but finally

figured I needed to back off). I remained distant with our mother

and explained to my sibs that, for whatever reason, this is what I

needed to do for the time being.

Ultimately, we all seem to be understanding something is wrong and

can now discuss it without so much tension. I really didn't do

anything to make this happen except try to not alienate my sibs when

we were at different spots.

Thank you for posting. I am fairly new at processing this all as

well and it is helpful to read about your experience and thoughts.

Caitlyn

" everyone else in my family (except my brother) either denies the

problem entirely or minimizes everything. I am the one my mother

chose as the " bad " child. I have suffered so long with being told

all of these bad things about myself when I knew they weren't true.

Or being " assigned " (by my mother) bad motives for everything I did,

when my motives were pure and good. I have gotten to the point

where I don't know what's real or true. Everything is, and always

has been, all about her. Nothing has ever mattered except what she

wanted, felt, thought, etc... even when she was being completely

nonsensical. My father (he's dead now) told all of us kids (a

direct quote), " to make her life happen happy " . That's right, we

were in charge of her happiness, which incidently, we were never

able to achieve. Imagine that!!! I feel so frustrated! I feel

like I'm going to implode! What do I do now? Any advice would be

appreciated. Thanks! "

abstract thoughts....in rhyme

djokieff.com

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+

countries) for 2¢/min or less.

[Guest guest]

Caitlyn,

My nada was just dx'd with breast cancer during my move to SEattle while I was

driving the second day last July 27. I had a similar reaction as did my

brother. But then she turned on us and cut us off from all contact. She had

her 25 year relationship/roomateship bf family coming in for a wedding that

saturday, so all his family was there. I got calls from her friends, family

members, church members concerned that she went off the deep end. They all said

the same phrase: " It's like your mother thinks this is a party. " And sure as

Sh(t, as soon as they left, " Oh, my dearest son, ........ " That was when

I went n/c with her. I saw the difference between the fantasy mom and the nada.

I thank God for that clarity. She's called a couple of times and the last, left

a message that on the fourth surgery they got it all. But she was advised to

have a mastectomy adn wouldn't b/c her bf said no. I'm glad that I am not going

to be hearing about any of her life from

this point forward. Yet, I do sometimes miss the fantasy mom.

I think the hardest job that faces us survivors is convincing ourselves that

we are worthy of love and respect and are intelligent, etc. b/c to children see

their parents as a God form for a long time. So, it is like arguing with God

that you are good and loving - only that God isn't God. It was an insane

person.

Thanks for sharing about your nada, Caitlyn.

Greg.

vivir4paz wrote:

Several years ago, my mother got breast cancer. I reacted stronger

than I expected and remember thinking " I don't want to lose my

mommy " . This was strange because I hadn't called her anything

but " mom " for decades and because I realized by that point that she

had not really parented me. I think I was mourning the mother I

never had and who I yearned for and also mourning her life that

seemed to be ending before it ever got started.

She ended up recovering. When we were all back to regular life, one

day she cried to me on the phone about how much she missed the time

when she had the cancer because at that time she knew how much

everyone loved her.

Everything with her is such a tangled mess of emotions - anger that

she wants to confine our lives to her care, anger that she is so

mean and hateful to us, frustration that she won't do the simplest

things to help herself, sadness that she doesn't fit in anywhere for

long and genuinely feels alone, even (especially?) in the midst of

family.

As Dawn and have recently expressed, my mother also

frequently threatened suicide while we were growing up. One time

when I was eight, I remember her locking herself in the bathroom

with a bottle of pills. I was outside the door sobbing and begging

her to not take them. My mother continued to threaten my younger

sister with suicide through the time she was in college. My mother

still alludes to taking her life, but hasn't directly threatened for

a long time.

Until recently, I would come home from every visit with my parents

overwhelmed with a grief. It would last for a couple of weeks

during which time I just worked and then isolated myself, consumed

with sadness and tears. I felt guilty that I should move closer to

my parents and spend more time with them. And I wondered how I

would exist if I did that? Tangles and tangles... Is it her fault

she is the way she is? Is she helpless?

I feel for those of you who are on your own and trying to continue

to offer companionship to your mothers while claiming your own lives

at the same time. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences.

Although I am fortunate to be making this journey with my sisters, I

think about it much more than they do (for better or worse) and am

still struggling largely on my own to try to understand my mother.

It is a welcome experience to hear from others who are also engaging

this path.

Caitlyn

_________________________

" I think you are right about greiving for something you never had -

it's difficult to understand that growing up - not until now have i

realized that is what i have been hoping and praying to have all

these years.... Sometime i wonder if I will have a sense of freedom

when my mum passes - and then the thought of her passing is

something that i am having a hard time thinking about. I think

because i know that it will be the end of something that can never

be changed - and also because she has been force in my life - my

existance almost... i know that sounds dramatic, but it feels so

true. - dawn

_____________________

Hi Dawn, I read your e-mail with tears in my eyes. My mother

overdosed when I was 14, but for you to have gone through that at

the age of 7. My heart aches, as I know how hard that was for me

when I was twice as old. The fear and anxiety and most of all the

guilt that that causes children. I really think that the guilt that

they hold over our heads is one of their strongest " weapons " . -

Cloverbee ()

---------------------------------

How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Guest guest]

Greg,

Great insight, I too struggle with the fantasy mother and ask of the

higher, why I have been given this road? I do rationalize it and

realize I lay in the wake of madness and it inspires me to seek out

the intelligible or divinity in myself that is potentially greatness.

> Several years ago, my mother got breast cancer. I reacted

stronger

> than I expected and remember thinking " I don't want to lose my

> mommy " . This was strange because I hadn't called her anything

> but " mom " for decades and because I realized by that point that she

> had not really parented me. I think I was mourning the mother I

> never had and who I yearned for and also mourning her life that

> seemed to be ending before it ever got started.

>

> She ended up recovering. When we were all back to regular life, one

> day she cried to me on the phone about how much she missed the time

> when she had the cancer because at that time she knew how much

> everyone loved her.

>

> Everything with her is such a tangled mess of emotions - anger that

> she wants to confine our lives to her care, anger that she is so

> mean and hateful to us, frustration that she won't do the simplest

> things to help herself, sadness that she doesn't fit in anywhere for

> long and genuinely feels alone, even (especially?) in the midst of

> family.

>

> As Dawn and have recently expressed, my mother also

> frequently threatened suicide while we were growing up. One time

> when I was eight, I remember her locking herself in the bathroom

> with a bottle of pills. I was outside the door sobbing and begging

> her to not take them. My mother continued to threaten my younger

> sister with suicide through the time she was in college. My mother

> still alludes to taking her life, but hasn't directly threatened for

> a long time.

>

> Until recently, I would come home from every visit with my parents

> overwhelmed with a grief. It would last for a couple of weeks

> during which time I just worked and then isolated myself, consumed

> with sadness and tears. I felt guilty that I should move closer to

> my parents and spend more time with them. And I wondered how I

> would exist if I did that? Tangles and tangles... Is it her fault

> she is the way she is? Is she helpless?

>

> I feel for those of you who are on your own and trying to continue

> to offer companionship to your mothers while claiming your own lives

> at the same time. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences.

> Although I am fortunate to be making this journey with my sisters, I

> think about it much more than they do (for better or worse) and am

> still struggling largely on my own to try to understand my mother.

> It is a welcome experience to hear from others who are also engaging

> this path.

>

> Caitlyn

>

> _________________________

>

> " I think you are right about greiving for something you never had -

> it's difficult to understand that growing up - not until now have i

> realized that is what i have been hoping and praying to have all

> these years.... Sometime i wonder if I will have a sense of freedom

> when my mum passes - and then the thought of her passing is

> something that i am having a hard time thinking about. I think

> because i know that it will be the end of something that can never

> be changed - and also because she has been force in my life - my

> existance almost... i know that sounds dramatic, but it feels so

> true. - dawn

> _____________________

>

> Hi Dawn, I read your e-mail with tears in my eyes. My mother

> overdosed when I was 14, but for you to have gone through that at

> the age of 7. My heart aches, as I know how hard that was for me

> when I was twice as old. The fear and anxiety and most of all the

> guilt that that causes children. I really think that the guilt that

> they hold over our heads is one of their strongest " weapons " . -

> Cloverbee ()

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone

call rates.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Caitlin,

I can really relate to your story about your mother saying she missed

the time when she had cancer. Ugh. My nada, like many others, loves to

be the center of attention, and one easy way to get this is by

inventing health crises. When she finally had a __real__ health

crisis, it was the happiest she's ever been in her life.

She loves to be the patient, she loves to be the suffering center of

attention. She loves to talk to anyone who will listen about her

" misery " and her treatments. Unfortunately for everyone who must still

listen to her (not me, thank God), this is a health condition which

will likely go on for the next 30 or 40 years. Yippee.

Well at least she doesn't need to invent illnesses anymore. That was

really annoying.

It's sad how your mother, my nada (and the rest of 'em) can't see how

twisted it is to enjoy a serious illness on any level. The last time I

saw my mother before NC, she came to town for a week, supposedly to

help me out (I knew she wouldn't). And I " took care of her " all week.

With her aches and her pains and her panic attacks and whatever else.

And at one point--I was so exhausted--I had just had a baby and really

needed the help, she says to me with this big smile on her face, " I

really love to come here. You take such good care of me. " And I was

just physically revolted. Just almost sick. The only time I had her

" love " or approval was when I was " taking care of her. " (Too bad she

never returned the favor when I was growing up, seeing as how she was

my " mother " ).

No wonder I try to take care of others now. Too much, I mean. Yuck. I

really didn't want to see her after that. And I haven't.

It's a long road (or it was for me) figuring all this stuff out. I'm

still figuring it out. Good luck to you!

Janie

[Guest guest]

Janie, Caitlin - that's helpful to me. My nada has constant

physical problems, is the constant center of attention. Yet (before

I recently went NC), she would make a big show of 'selflessly'

offering to come help with me a move, childcare, etc. It's nuts,

because she's physically unable to do anything but lie on the couch

and be a martyr, and I have double work. So I say 'no thanks' to

the offers of " help " - and it makes me look like the ungrateful

daughter - which of course, they accuse me of being. Insane.

>

> Caitlin,

> I can really relate to your story about your mother saying she

missed

> the time when she had cancer. Ugh. My nada, like many others,

loves to

> be the center of attention, and one easy way to get this is by

> inventing health crises. When she finally had a __real__ health

> crisis, it was the happiest she's ever been in her life.

>

> She loves to be the patient, she loves to be the suffering center

of

> attention. She loves to talk to anyone who will listen about her

> " misery " and her treatments. Unfortunately for everyone who must

still

> listen to her (not me, thank God), this is a health condition which

> will likely go on for the next 30 or 40 years. Yippee.

>

> Well at least she doesn't need to invent illnesses anymore. That

was

> really annoying.

>

> It's sad how your mother, my nada (and the rest of 'em) can't see

how

> twisted it is to enjoy a serious illness on any level. The last

time I

> saw my mother before NC, she came to town for a week, supposedly to

> help me out (I knew she wouldn't). And I " took care of her " all

week.

> With her aches and her pains and her panic attacks and whatever

else.

> And at one point--I was so exhausted--I had just had a baby and

really

> needed the help, she says to me with this big smile on her face, " I

> really love to come here. You take such good care of me. " And I was

> just physically revolted. Just almost sick. The only time I had her

> " love " or approval was when I was " taking care of her. " (Too bad

she

> never returned the favor when I was growing up, seeing as how she

was

> my " mother " ).

>

> No wonder I try to take care of others now. Too much, I mean.

Yuck. I

> really didn't want to see her after that. And I haven't.

>

> It's a long road (or it was for me) figuring all this stuff out.

I'm

> still figuring it out. Good luck to you!

>

> Janie

>

[Guest guest]

richardson20214,

Ohhh yes! The ungrateful daughter! But we get that both ways right?

Cuz when mine would lie on the couch, doing nothinggggg and creating

even more work for those around her, NPD stepdad would go on and on

about how hardworking nada is, how devoted, how self-sacrificing, how

she tries to help when she's in such agony, what a trooper, blah blah

blah. And how ungrateful I was (bad daughter! bad! bad!) to continue

to pack my boxes (or whatever), while my dear mother was lying there

on her bed of pain, moaning or whimpering or whatnot, like a n

maiden in full swoon.

And of course the " temptation " was to throttle him and scream " Are you

insane?!?!?! She's lying there on her lazy hypochondriacal butt! "

But...since I'm neither a throttler nor a screamer...in reality I

would try to tune both of them out...as the knot in my stomach tightened.

Ai yi yi.

Janie

[Guest guest]

maybe you all can help. I've been NC for almost two weeks. I was

just beginning to stabilize and feel less afraid. Then my aunt

called, to whom i'm very close - she recognizes and supports my

struggle. But my nada (her sister) had called her and talked for an

hour and a half - my aunt had 14 pages of notes, just because it was

so unreal, she had to do it for sanity's sake.

My nada was full of the hatred and maligning of me- more than ever -

because now my younger brother (the one divorcing his BPD wife) has

completely fed the pathology, saying that I am bullshit in cutting

off contact, and all kinds of awful things. My aunt was in tears

over it, and I've never seen her so upset since their child died

several years ago. It's the first time she's gotten full frontal on

this pathology.

I understand why she called me- when you get that kind of thing, you

have to go to someone who understands and yell about it. But it was

the last thing I needed. I had just begun to calm down after my

brother's accusations when I went NC - now, hearing all the stuff I

know is there, but the voices I needed not to hear, I am shaking,

afraid, and feel horrible about myself.

Anybody else go through flashbacks?

>

> richardson20214,

>

> Ohhh yes! The ungrateful daughter! But we get that both ways right?

> Cuz when mine would lie on the couch, doing nothinggggg and

creating

> even more work for those around her, NPD stepdad would go on and on

> about how hardworking nada is, how devoted, how self-sacrificing,

how

> she tries to help when she's in such agony, what a trooper, blah

blah

> blah. And how ungrateful I was (bad daughter! bad! bad!) to

continue

> to pack my boxes (or whatever), while my dear mother was lying

there

> on her bed of pain, moaning or whimpering or whatnot, like a

n

> maiden in full swoon.

>

> And of course the " temptation " was to throttle him and scream " Are

you

> insane?!?!?! She's lying there on her lazy hypochondriacal butt! "

> But...since I'm neither a throttler nor a screamer...in reality I

> would try to tune both of them out...as the knot in my stomach

tightened.

>

> Ai yi yi.

> Janie

>

[Guest guest]

Greg -

What a fantastic analogy -- the vacation perception versus reality.

That one's a keeper....

-Kyla

> Cloverbee,

>

> I relate to so much of what you are saying. The first I read of

BPD

> was online and then " Understanding the BL Mother " . I am now

> reading " SWOE " . While I have been living with the understanding of

> BPD for a year or so, I continue to be amazed at the

predictability

> and universality of these behavoirs.

>

> My father is still alive and from the time we were little kids had

> us comfort our mother. Why? Because the burden was too great for

> him? Because he wanted to get out of the way of her wrath? Because

> he felt caring for her was his greatest duty? I love him, feel

> frustrated at his weakness, feel sad for him (he has chosen to be

> stuck in the situaiton), etc.

>

> While my sisters and I are starting to pull out of the

divisiveness

> this illness has imposed on our family, for a long time, it was

just

> one sister and I that saw the problem - though we still approached

> it differently and fought.

>

> My father alternatively says (1)there is a problem " but every

family

> has dysfunction " and (2)just shuts down. My other sister was split

> bad and for a long still yearned afer my mother's approval. She is

> finally seeing my mother's problem and working her way out of the

> hole all of the abuse caused her. Now, all three sibs see the

> problem and are finally working together (slowly, with stumbles)

to

> hold our mother responsible for her behavoir.

>

> My sister (split bad) used to see me as harsh and cold for being

> distant with my mom (this I did even before learning about BPD),

and

> my sister was especially angry with me since I had been split

good.

> To be honest, it is only because my sister decided to take control

> of her life, get help, that all the hostility between us was

finally

> able to subside. The biggest turn-around moment I think was a time

> (recent) when my mother acted out and no once responded. For the

> first time, everyone saw this could be done and life would go on.

>

> I don't know the specifics of your relationship with your

siblings.

> In my experience, I ultimately had to say to my sister that I

> thought our mother was not okay and that, while I wished I could

be

> more compassionate to her, for the time being, I was having

trouble

> doing that. I explained that staying distant from our mother

> (talking politely but not being very loving - ie: caretaking) was

> the kindest thing I could do because going further might push me

to

> avoid her (our mother) altogether.

>

> I planted the seed in my sister's head that our mother was not

okay

> but did not push it (well, I did at one time push it, but finally

> figured I needed to back off). I remained distant with our mother

> and explained to my sibs that, for whatever reason, this is what I

> needed to do for the time being.

>

> Ultimately, we all seem to be understanding something is wrong and

> can now discuss it without so much tension. I really didn't do

> anything to make this happen except try to not alienate my sibs

when

> we were at different spots.

>

> Thank you for posting. I am fairly new at processing this all as

> well and it is helpful to read about your experience and thoughts.

>

> Caitlyn

>

> " everyone else in my family (except my brother) either denies the

> problem entirely or minimizes everything. I am the one my mother

> chose as the " bad " child. I have suffered so long with being told

> all of these bad things about myself when I knew they weren't

true.

> Or being " assigned " (by my mother) bad motives for everything I

did,

> when my motives were pure and good. I have gotten to the point

> where I don't know what's real or true. Everything is, and always

> has been, all about her. Nothing has ever mattered except what she

> wanted, felt, thought, etc... even when she was being completely

> nonsensical. My father (he's dead now) told all of us kids (a

> direct quote), " to make her life happen happy " . That's right, we

> were in charge of her happiness, which incidently, we were never

> able to achieve. Imagine that!!! I feel so frustrated! I feel

> like I'm going to implode! What do I do now? Any advice would be

> appreciated. Thanks! "

>

> abstract thoughts....in rhyme

> djokieff.com

>

> ---------------------------------

> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and

30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

>

>

[Guest guest]

richardson20214,

That's a tough one... I don't have any great insights here, but I want

to say I'm sorry that you went through that. Those of us who choose NC

do so after a great deal of thought (and good reasons). So, even if I

don't know your situation, I know you have very valid reasons for

choosing NC to protect yourself from nada.

And then, although she didn't intend it that way, it sounds like your

aunt managed to give you a big dose of nada's venom ...secondhand. As

you noted, your aunt just wanted someone to talk to, who could

understand. And yet, even unintentionally, it *was* harmful, as you

noticed. You had been starting to feel more stabilized, and then your

convo with your aunt stirred it all up again.

I can understand why you felt you needed to be a listening ear for

your aunt. Possibly, were you thinking you were the indirect cause of

her getting this treatment from your nada? And so you felt like you

needed to listen to it and " help " your aunt, even if it was harmful to

yourself?

If it were me, I might tell my aunt lovingly that I chose NC with nada

& brother in order to protect myself from them, and right now that

includes not hearing about nada/brother secondhand as well. I would

also tell my aunt that I feel sorry that she had this very upsetting

incident with nada, because I know firsthand how

painful/difficult/traumatic it is. ***Then I would encourage her to

take whatever steps she needed to protect herself from nada.*** You

have set your NC boundary, and perhaps your aunt can see that she is

responsible for setting her own boundaries with nada and your brother.

I've been NC about 3 years and I remember what a tough emotional time

it was at first. I'm sorry to hear that you are feeling shaken and bad

about yourself! :-( Try to remind yourself that you deserve to protect

yourself, you deserve to take care of yourself. You do!

Janie

> >

> > richardson20214,

> >

> > Ohhh yes! The ungrateful daughter! But we get that both ways right?

> > Cuz when mine would lie on the couch, doing nothinggggg and

> creating

> > even more work for those around her, NPD stepdad would go on and on

> > about how hardworking nada is, how devoted, how self-sacrificing,

> how

> > she tries to help when she's in such agony, what a trooper, blah

> blah

> > blah. And how ungrateful I was (bad daughter! bad! bad!) to

> continue

> > to pack my boxes (or whatever), while my dear mother was lying

> there

> > on her bed of pain, moaning or whimpering or whatnot, like a

> n

> > maiden in full swoon.

> >

> > And of course the " temptation " was to throttle him and scream " Are

> you

> > insane?!?!?! She's lying there on her lazy hypochondriacal butt! "

> > But...since I'm neither a throttler nor a screamer...in reality I

> > would try to tune both of them out...as the knot in my stomach

> tightened.

> >

> > Ai yi yi.

> > Janie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Janie, thanks so much. What you say is so clear and grounded. So

it's common to have a tough period after going NC?? (yes, after much

agony and agonized work with therapist and spiritual director) The

thing about last night was that it brought home again the deepest

fears of someone close to me (not my aunt, but FOO) who will

savagely attack, disparage, and violate me, with absolutely no self-

check in place. I don't know if I " ll ever be able to wrap my head

around that.

> > >

> > > richardson20214,

> > >

> > > Ohhh yes! The ungrateful daughter! But we get that both ways

right?

> > > Cuz when mine would lie on the couch, doing nothinggggg and

> > creating

> > > even more work for those around her, NPD stepdad would go on

and on

> > > about how hardworking nada is, how devoted, how self-

sacrificing,

> > how

> > > she tries to help when she's in such agony, what a trooper,

blah

> > blah

> > > blah. And how ungrateful I was (bad daughter! bad! bad!) to

> > continue

> > > to pack my boxes (or whatever), while my dear mother was lying

> > there

> > > on her bed of pain, moaning or whimpering or whatnot, like a

> > n

> > > maiden in full swoon.

> > >

> > > And of course the " temptation " was to throttle him and

scream " Are

> > you

> > > insane?!?!?! She's lying there on her lazy hypochondriacal

butt! "

> > > But...since I'm neither a throttler nor a screamer...in

reality I

> > > would try to tune both of them out...as the knot in my stomach

> > tightened.

> > >

> > > Ai yi yi.

> > > Janie

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

richardson20214,

Oh yes, I hope other NC people will chime in too, but, I think it's

extremely common to go through a rough time emotionally when choosing

NC, for a lot of reasons. For one thing, we are trained by nada to

give ourselves nothing and to give her everything. And what's the very

" worst " thing we can do to nada? " Abandon " her. So, it's like a mental

double whammy--we do something important and necessary for ourselves

(against our training), and at the same time, we do something

" terrible " in nada's opinion. And because things for nada (and other

personality-disordered people) are black-and-white, if we have done

something they don't like, we are " all bad " and we are treated as

such--as you said, with no self-check from them, no holding back.

I agree, it's hard to understand that--how those closest to us can be

so cruel and betray us on that level, and fail to understand us so

thoroughly. I think a lot of us have some thoughts or feelings like,

" How can I be worth very much, if my own family can treat me like

this? " We know that in more functional families, our family is the

group who can be counted on to try to understand us, to love us warts

and all, and to support our tough decisions. Our families do none of

these things.

So, when we go NC--an extra-hard decision for us--we get no support

from FOO, ie, from the people who would normally support us (if they

weren't so unbearable that we chose NC in the first place).

I know this is hard, but I'm betting you can get through this. We KOs

are a tough breed! ;-)

Janie

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much, Janie. Yes, the irrational question that keeps

coming up from someplace is 'how can they hate me so much.' Maybe

the NC process is freeing myself of that question. A major part of

my profession (clergy) is telling people that they are worthy of

love. It's amazing how hard it is for me to believe about myself

when I get such a message from my FOO. I hope the NC will help me

deliver that message all the more passionately, to myself and others.

>

> richardson20214,

> Oh yes, I hope other NC people will chime in too, but, I think it's

> extremely common to go through a rough time emotionally when

choosing

> NC, for a lot of reasons. For one thing, we are trained by nada to

> give ourselves nothing and to give her everything. And what's the

very

> " worst " thing we can do to nada? " Abandon " her. So, it's like a

mental

> double whammy--we do something important and necessary for

ourselves

> (against our training), and at the same time, we do something

> " terrible " in nada's opinion. And because things for nada (and

other

> personality-disordered people) are black-and-white, if we have done

> something they don't like, we are " all bad " and we are treated as

> such--as you said, with no self-check from them, no holding back.

>

> I agree, it's hard to understand that--how those closest to us can

be

> so cruel and betray us on that level, and fail to understand us so

> thoroughly. I think a lot of us have some thoughts or feelings

like,

> " How can I be worth very much, if my own family can treat me like

> this? " We know that in more functional families, our family is the

> group who can be counted on to try to understand us, to love us

warts

> and all, and to support our tough decisions. Our families do none

of

> these things.

>

> So, when we go NC--an extra-hard decision for us--we get no support

> from FOO, ie, from the people who would normally support us (if

they

> weren't so unbearable that we chose NC in the first place).

>

> I know this is hard, but I'm betting you can get through this. We

KOs

> are a tough breed! ;-)

> Janie

>