Re: how big are your fleas?

[Guest guest]

Very much so! This has been the biggest obstacle for me with

understanding BPD. I NEVER want to be nada. How do I know I'm behaving

inappropriately if I was raised to find these behaviors normal? I take

solace in the fact that people have felt comfortable enough with me

throughout my life to bring these behaviors to my attention. Every one

was too scared of nada to this:P Not to say, everyone that criticizes

you are correct in their assumptions, but I think this can be a guide

to a certain extent.

Another thing I've found helpful is this mantra I found online. I

would give credit to the source, but I can't remember where I found it...

" I am a Non. I value MY well being, my emotional health, enough to

make choices that allow me to move towards health, wellness and better

relationships.. if that includes the BP in my life.. good...if not…

it's worth the price.… I am worth the price. "

>

> I've started reading " Understanding the Borderline Mother " by

> Lawson. She focuses a lot on the fact that KOs can become

> BPDs themselves. This scares the crap out of me.

>

> I've been thinking about my own fleas and trying to tame them (hence

> my renewed interest in going back to therapy). My husband and I want

> to try and have children soon, and the last thing in the world I'd

> want to do is treat them the way I was treated. I feel like

> self-awareness goes a long way, but it's not enough. I feel like I

> need to reconfigure certain behavior patterns, so to speak, before I

> have a child.

>

> Has anyone had this experience? Do you fear that you'll turn into your

> nada? How do you stop being hypersensitive (one of my biggest fleas)?

>

> qwerty

>

[Guest guest]

This is also one of my biggest fears and causes me much shame. I realized that

as a defense I will act like my nada because everyone loves her and that's all I

want when I feel threatened in some way. Knowing that in a way I had actually

become her was EXTREMELY distressing to me however unlike her I choose to seek

help for these behaviors. I really hate myself for it. I used to tell all my

friends in high school that if I ever turned into my mother they had permission

to shoot me. I feel like someone should come knocking any day now to fulfill my

wish. I also wish I could just focus more anger at my mother for this. I know I

am an adult so it is up to me to change myself but if she had only taught me a

healthy way to defend myself in my childhood then I think things would be quite

different.

qz wrote: I've started reading

" Understanding the Borderline Mother " by

Lawson. She focuses a lot on the fact that KOs can become

BPDs themselves. This scares the crap out of me.

I've been thinking about my own fleas and trying to tame them (hence

my renewed interest in going back to therapy). My husband and I want

to try and have children soon, and the last thing in the world I'd

want to do is treat them the way I was treated. I feel like

self-awareness goes a long way, but it's not enough. I feel like I

need to reconfigure certain behavior patterns, so to speak, before I

have a child.

Has anyone had this experience? Do you fear that you'll turn into your

nada? How do you stop being hypersensitive (one of my biggest fleas)?

qwerty

[Guest guest]

Hi Veg,

No, this is not normal ... by any stretch. She is obsessed, and very needy

.... for you to abandon your independence, self reliance, and any thought that

your life is not an extension of her own.

REALITY CHECK: If it feels bad, then is likely is bad ... for you.

Go on out again, and feel that freedom...away from her. Your perceptions

are right on; she has been the 'model' of how to be...you can delete that

file...be yourself. Carol

In a message dated 9/17/2007 11:52:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

vegdeanna@... writes:

After years of therapy, my therapist one day said my mother sounded

borderline. I borrowed SWOE from the library and was in a sheer panic

as I read the symptoms.

I can see so much of myself in it. I am insecure and often hurt

easily. I feel lonely. I remember one time hosting a great poker

game, and crying when everyone left because I was alone again.

When I get angry I can tend to hold on to it for a long time, retell

the story to myself over and over, increasing my justifications. This

only serves to make me angrier. Sometimes people slip out of my life,

and I really don't know why. I never know if it is personal or not.

I can recognize how uncomfortable it has been for people who have had

to hear me vent about things as my friends.

Now that I'm NC with nada, and I left a toxic work environment (which

I contributed to as well), left the friend who thought of me as a

walking pair of boobs, and left the friend who slams me on

occasion...there is a hole.

Sometimes I fill it with petty gripes about my new job. Sometimes I

remember past hurts again and again.

Just writing this, and admitting these things, makes me feel sick.

Sick that I could be *just like her*. Sick that I came from her.

Sick that I hate my own mother. Sick that (lately) I don't so much

hate her as just never want to talk to her again. Sick that I feel so

broken. Sick with worry that my life is totally worthless, and has

mattered only to my cats and served only my nada's desire to crush it

by eating me alive.

Sometimes I go out and I just feel normal, and it's like an escape.

Other times I feel like I am just too damaged to ever return. When I

see myself working, at 36, to get attention from people, the attention

I wanted from my mother, I feel so pathetic. And how can this woman,

after 5 months, KEEP calling me? Calling, writing, I have not

responded to her once, not answered the phone. We had a big blowout.

But she keeps trying. Is this normal?

I don't know what " normal " is most of the time. But I know that I

wouldn't persue someone who didn't want to talk to me. I would drop

them just as hard. And I know...this is yet ANOTHER flea.

I don't think she is evil. I do think that she makes me sick. I feel

I cannot be well with her around me. I feel that nobody will

understand this. I feel I will never be free. I wish she would die,

so I could relax. Sometimes I wish *I* would die. Even when I'm not

*depressed* per se, I am so very tired of trying. Then I imagine her

weeping over my casket and *touching me* and *staring at me* and I

feel sick all over again. Then I imagine how everyone would say how

crazy and messed up I must have been, and how vigilant of her to try

and contact me, and I was clearly just born messed up and...(why would

I even think these things???)

Yet I think for the most part, these battles are all going on in my

head. I remember what I know is pretty true: " You wouldn't be so

worried about what people think of you if you knew how seldom they did. "

I think of the lessons I've learned from her: people will all

eventually turn on you, they act nice now but they really hate you,

you are a burden, you are a pest, nobody likes your company, nobody is

ever really happy, you can't change so don't even try, " i love you "

means nothing, except maybe it means " i hate you " , life is miserable,

you always have to do what your mother says, stand there and take it

while I scream at you, using logic with my mother is impossible when

she's angry.

I think, this is way too much to overcome. Sometimes I think, well my

mother is always there. I'm going to bed alone tonight, but if I

called my mother she would be happy to talk to me. Maybe I should

take any scraps I can get. Oh look, there's another one of my lessons.

So yeah, I have fleas, big time.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Guest guest]

After years of therapy, my therapist one day said my mother sounded

borderline. I borrowed SWOE from the library and was in a sheer panic

as I read the symptoms.

I can see so much of myself in it. I am insecure and often hurt

easily. I feel lonely. I remember one time hosting a great poker

game, and crying when everyone left because I was alone again.

When I get angry I can tend to hold on to it for a long time, retell

the story to myself over and over, increasing my justifications. This

only serves to make me angrier. Sometimes people slip out of my life,

and I really don't know why. I never know if it is personal or not.

I can recognize how uncomfortable it has been for people who have had

to hear me vent about things as my friends.

Now that I'm NC with nada, and I left a toxic work environment (which

I contributed to as well), left the friend who thought of me as a

walking pair of boobs, and left the friend who slams me on

occasion...there is a hole.

Sometimes I fill it with petty gripes about my new job. Sometimes I

remember past hurts again and again.

Just writing this, and admitting these things, makes me feel sick.

Sick that I could be *just like her*. Sick that I came from her.

Sick that I hate my own mother. Sick that (lately) I don't so much

hate her as just never want to talk to her again. Sick that I feel so

broken. Sick with worry that my life is totally worthless, and has

mattered only to my cats and served only my nada's desire to crush it

by eating me alive.

Sometimes I go out and I just feel normal, and it's like an escape.

Other times I feel like I am just too damaged to ever return. When I

see myself working, at 36, to get attention from people, the attention

I wanted from my mother, I feel so pathetic. And how can this woman,

after 5 months, KEEP calling me? Calling, writing, I have not

responded to her once, not answered the phone. We had a big blowout.

But she keeps trying. Is this normal?

I don't know what " normal " is most of the time. But I know that I

wouldn't persue someone who didn't want to talk to me. I would drop

them just as hard. And I know...this is yet ANOTHER flea.

I don't think she is evil. I do think that she makes me sick. I feel

I cannot be well with her around me. I feel that nobody will

understand this. I feel I will never be free. I wish she would die,

so I could relax. Sometimes I wish *I* would die. Even when I'm not

*depressed* per se, I am so very tired of trying. Then I imagine her

weeping over my casket and *touching me* and *staring at me* and I

feel sick all over again. Then I imagine how everyone would say how

crazy and messed up I must have been, and how vigilant of her to try

and contact me, and I was clearly just born messed up and...(why would

I even think these things???)

Yet I think for the most part, these battles are all going on in my

head. I remember what I know is pretty true: " You wouldn't be so

worried about what people think of you if you knew how seldom they did. "

I think of the lessons I've learned from her: people will all

eventually turn on you, they act nice now but they really hate you,

you are a burden, you are a pest, nobody likes your company, nobody is

ever really happy, you can't change so don't even try, " i love you "

means nothing, except maybe it means " i hate you " , life is miserable,

you always have to do what your mother says, stand there and take it

while I scream at you, using logic with my mother is impossible when

she's angry.

I think, this is way too much to overcome. Sometimes I think, well my

mother is always there. I'm going to bed alone tonight, but if I

called my mother she would be happy to talk to me. Maybe I should

take any scraps I can get. Oh look, there's another one of my lessons.

So yeah, I have fleas, big time.

>

> I've started reading " Understanding the Borderline Mother " by

> Lawson. She focuses a lot on the fact that KOs can become

> BPDs themselves. This scares the crap out of me.

>

> I've been thinking about my own fleas and trying to tame them (hence

> my renewed interest in going back to therapy). My husband and I want

> to try and have children soon, and the last thing in the world I'd

> want to do is treat them the way I was treated. I feel like

> self-awareness goes a long way, but it's not enough. I feel like I

> need to reconfigure certain behavior patterns, so to speak, before I

> have a child.

>

> Has anyone had this experience? Do you fear that you'll turn into your

> nada? How do you stop being hypersensitive (one of my biggest fleas)?

>

> qwerty

>

[Guest guest]

Vegdeanna,

Thanks so much for sharing these feelings. I think we can all relate.

I certainly can. It's comforting to know that I am not alone in having

feelings similar to yours.

As to what's normal... The way I see it, people who have survived

years of abuse as we have have responses that are normal in the

context of an abusive environment. If someone screams at you 24 hours

a day for 18 years, you learn to flinch easily and distrust most

people you meet. That's normal. Trusting people and being open to

everyone would be abnormal, given that sort of upbringing.

The tough part is unlearning the behaviors that don't work for us any

more.

qwerty

>

> After years of therapy, my therapist one day said my mother sounded

> borderline. I borrowed SWOE from the library and was in a sheer panic

> as I read the symptoms.

>

> I can see so much of myself in it. I am insecure and often hurt

> easily. I feel lonely. I remember one time hosting a great poker

> game, and crying when everyone left because I was alone again.

>

> When I get angry I can tend to hold on to it for a long time, retell

> the story to myself over and over, increasing my justifications. This

> only serves to make me angrier. Sometimes people slip out of my life,

> and I really don't know why. I never know if it is personal or not.

> I can recognize how uncomfortable it has been for people who have had

> to hear me vent about things as my friends.

>

> Now that I'm NC with nada, and I left a toxic work environment (which

> I contributed to as well), left the friend who thought of me as a

> walking pair of boobs, and left the friend who slams me on

> occasion...there is a hole.

>

> Sometimes I fill it with petty gripes about my new job. Sometimes I

> remember past hurts again and again.

>

> Just writing this, and admitting these things, makes me feel sick.

> Sick that I could be *just like her*. Sick that I came from her.

> Sick that I hate my own mother. Sick that (lately) I don't so much

> hate her as just never want to talk to her again. Sick that I feel so

> broken. Sick with worry that my life is totally worthless, and has

> mattered only to my cats and served only my nada's desire to crush it

> by eating me alive.

>

> Sometimes I go out and I just feel normal, and it's like an escape.

> Other times I feel like I am just too damaged to ever return. When I

> see myself working, at 36, to get attention from people, the attention

> I wanted from my mother, I feel so pathetic. And how can this woman,

> after 5 months, KEEP calling me? Calling, writing, I have not

> responded to her once, not answered the phone. We had a big blowout.

> But she keeps trying. Is this normal?

>

> I don't know what " normal " is most of the time. But I know that I

> wouldn't persue someone who didn't want to talk to me. I would drop

> them just as hard. And I know...this is yet ANOTHER flea.

>

> I don't think she is evil. I do think that she makes me sick. I feel

> I cannot be well with her around me. I feel that nobody will

> understand this. I feel I will never be free. I wish she would die,

> so I could relax. Sometimes I wish *I* would die. Even when I'm not

> *depressed* per se, I am so very tired of trying. Then I imagine her

> weeping over my casket and *touching me* and *staring at me* and I

> feel sick all over again. Then I imagine how everyone would say how

> crazy and messed up I must have been, and how vigilant of her to try

> and contact me, and I was clearly just born messed up and...(why would

> I even think these things???)

>

> Yet I think for the most part, these battles are all going on in my

> head. I remember what I know is pretty true: " You wouldn't be so

> worried about what people think of you if you knew how seldom they did. "

>

> I think of the lessons I've learned from her: people will all

> eventually turn on you, they act nice now but they really hate you,

> you are a burden, you are a pest, nobody likes your company, nobody is

> ever really happy, you can't change so don't even try, " i love you "

> means nothing, except maybe it means " i hate you " , life is miserable,

> you always have to do what your mother says, stand there and take it

> while I scream at you, using logic with my mother is impossible when

> she's angry.

>

> I think, this is way too much to overcome. Sometimes I think, well my

> mother is always there. I'm going to bed alone tonight, but if I

> called my mother she would be happy to talk to me. Maybe I should

> take any scraps I can get. Oh look, there's another one of my lessons.

>

> So yeah, I have fleas, big time.

[Guest guest]

Vegdeanna,

What an awesome post to articulate what a lot of us KOs have felt at

one point or another. Very brave of you to lay it all out on the line

like that. Its a very convicting post and I for one really appreciate

your honesty.

Kerrie

> >

> > I've started reading " Understanding the Borderline Mother " by

> > Lawson. She focuses a lot on the fact that KOs can

become

> > BPDs themselves. This scares the crap out of me.

> >

> > I've been thinking about my own fleas and trying to tame them

(hence

> > my renewed interest in going back to therapy). My husband and I

want

> > to try and have children soon, and the last thing in the world I'd

> > want to do is treat them the way I was treated. I feel like

> > self-awareness goes a long way, but it's not enough. I feel like I

> > need to reconfigure certain behavior patterns, so to speak,

before I

> > have a child.

> >

> > Has anyone had this experience? Do you fear that you'll turn into

your

> > nada? How do you stop being hypersensitive (one of my biggest

fleas)?

> >

> > qwerty

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Kerrie and qwerty, thank you both. It is embarrassing to admit to

those feelings, but I am glad to know that I'm not alone.

> > >

> > > I've started reading " Understanding the Borderline Mother " by

> > > Lawson. She focuses a lot on the fact that KOs can

> become

> > > BPDs themselves. This scares the crap out of me.

> > >

> > > I've been thinking about my own fleas and trying to tame them

> (hence

> > > my renewed interest in going back to therapy). My husband and I

> want

> > > to try and have children soon, and the last thing in the world I'd

> > > want to do is treat them the way I was treated. I feel like

> > > self-awareness goes a long way, but it's not enough. I feel like I

> > > need to reconfigure certain behavior patterns, so to speak,

> before I

> > > have a child.

> > >

> > > Has anyone had this experience? Do you fear that you'll turn into

> your

> > > nada? How do you stop being hypersensitive (one of my biggest

> fleas)?

> > >

> > > qwerty

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Some things for me are just as Vegdeanna said, some are opposite

> reactions. My mother has always been weak and needy, my job is to

> make her feel better. I took on the world, tried to make it all

> better. You can drown in that stuff. When people say I'm soo

> empathetic or compassionate, I think that's nice, but at this point

> it's a sickness, based more on fear than true compassion. But I do

> have true compassion as well, and when I am more healthy, it will

> still be part of who I am.

I can totally relate. At a certain age, I had to make a conscious

decision to stop caring so much about other people. When someone told

me how they felt, I went beyond empathy such that I *felt* their pain

as if it were my own. I realized this wasn't useful to me

(exhausting!) or the person confiding in me (dragged into the same

abyss). So I forced myself not to take other people's pain to heart so

much.

> I learned to apologize to my kids from birth, I'm a chronic

> apologizer, but now I try to reserve them for when I have really

> done wrong (plenty of opportunity), and I've stressed to the kids

> that mistakes are truly how we learn. I think life is a process, and

> we'll never be finished, polished, perfect, but the work toward

> improvement has brought joy, when I can let myself feel it and know

> I deserve it...

Good for you! You've accomplished an amazing about-face from the way

people like us were raised to be. That is so comforting to hear! If

you can do it, maybe I can too. Thanks for sharing this.

qwerty

[Guest guest]

I someone who has lived with a borderline mother and has survived it.

But not without a cost. I read your messages and I see myself in

your struggles along the road to health and freedom.

For me, the freedom came at the expense of all relationships I had

with my immediate family. I lost my brother, my sister and my father

and of course I chose to lose my mother.

The day I realised the choice was between my life or her's was the

most harrowing day of my life. I never thought I could imagine

living my life without a mother. I was 27 years old with a young

baby trying to make it on my own. Without a husband or a family.

The manipulation of my borderline mother had turned everyone,

including my husband against me. I left. I simply packed my bags

and left them all. They could not accept that I couldn't pander to

her any longer. They never knew the pain of never being good enough

as her eldest daughter. They knew nothing of the threats to kill me

or burn me. Nor did they know of her repeated suicide threats to me

to rescue her.

When the day came that I was thinking of suiciding myself and taking

my baby with me out of this life. I knew I had to leave, and leave

everyone of them behind.

I am 36 years old now. And I am near the end of my journey out the

hell that used to be my childhood/adolescence and young adult life.

I have picked up the pieces. I have fought every negative and

critcal message that had replayed in my head since I was little

girl. I have fought for my sanity and my life. As you all know you

cannot fight a borderline because they do not operate on logic. But

you can fight within, in your mind, and make sure that the negativity

is out. That has been what has not only saved me, but has turned my

life comppletely around.

The quiet fight within has been able to emerge and take place in my

own life. I can now stand up for myself and my loved one and know

that i count. I am right. I am not crazy. I am worthy and deserving

of everything I have.

You all need to continue the fight because you are all worth it, you

just have to realise it.

Zoe

> > >

> > > I've started reading " Understanding the Borderline Mother " by

> > > Lawson. She focuses a lot on the fact that KOs can

> become

> > > BPDs themselves. This scares the crap out of me.

> > >

> > > I've been thinking about my own fleas and trying to tame them

> (hence

> > > my renewed interest in going back to therapy). My husband and I

> want

> > > to try and have children soon, and the last thing in the world

I'd

> > > want to do is treat them the way I was treated. I feel like

> > > self-awareness goes a long way, but it's not enough. I feel

like I

> > > need to reconfigure certain behavior patterns, so to speak,

> before I

> > > have a child.

> > >

> > > Has anyone had this experience? Do you fear that you'll turn

into

> your

> > > nada? How do you stop being hypersensitive (one of my biggest

> fleas)?

> > >

> > > qwerty

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi! I have been meaning to write for a few days now and say how

great i think this thread is and thank everyone especially Deanna

for contributing. The last few weeks I have felt so much shame for

the person I used to be. I have worked very hard in the last few

years and now have a happy marriage, a beautiful son, and real

friendships. Of course there are still lonely pangs from not having

a family who can support me. But I feel sometimes as though the

first 25 years of my life were a washout, and I experience terrible

envy when people tell me about the friendships from childhood or

even university that they still maintain. I have very few, partly

because I live in a different country now and that is the only way I

have been able to separate from my nada, and partly because I was so

crap at developing real friendships or being a dependable, pleasant

person in those years...

I selected unhealthy people to be around, because I felt as though I

deserved their behavior. I had a terrible trend of choosing

boyfriends who were very hard to please - because then I would feel

as though I had accomplished something if I won their praise. This

is exactly the relationship I had with my parents - that their love

was based on my accomplishments. But I also want to take

responsibility for driving away healthy people who were willing to

give me a chance. I can't even understand what i was thinking

then. I think my self-esteem was just so poor that I would figure

there was something wrong with anyone who wanted to spend time with

me, and then I would figure that they weren't good enough to please

my family, and them push them away.

Gosh,I can't even begin to describe how easily led and fickle I

was. That I cheated on boyfriends (though this would be a deeper

crime had they been meaningful relationships) whenever someone else

showed an interest in me - after all, that's what my mother advised

me to do. That I would be inappropriately interested in people's

lives, feeling that my relationships had to be sort of voyeuristic

because no one would want to have genuine interactions with me. I

cringe to think of how little privacy from my parents I ever had,

that even in my twenties they insisted that I had to share

everything with them.

And yes, I had and still have exactly the problem that qwerty and

thunk2much described. I really have to distance myself when people

tell me their problems, because I don't just have empathy, I get

sucked in. When my nada was unhappy, I couldn't just listen, I was

supposed to feel whatever she felt. But I know that she also

interacted with other people this way too, that she would get very

involved in their problems. So I guess it is learned on two

levels. I've gotten much better with the support from my husband,

who is excellent at listening to problems without making them his

own.

So yeah, I used to have enormous fleas and I am so embarassed about

who I used to be. My therapist tells me that i should try to have

compassion for the child I was, but I find that hard. Don't get me

wrong, I still have lots of fleas but I'm working on them. Thanks

again for the posts. I don't have as much time to write these days,

but reading them helps me so much.

Sara

> >

> > Some things for me are just as Vegdeanna said, some are opposite

> > reactions. My mother has always been weak and needy, my job is

to

> > make her feel better. I took on the world, tried to make it all

> > better. You can drown in that stuff. When people say I'm soo

> > empathetic or compassionate, I think that's nice, but at this

point

> > it's a sickness, based more on fear than true compassion. But I

do

> > have true compassion as well, and when I am more healthy, it

will

> > still be part of who I am.

>

> I can totally relate. At a certain age, I had to make a conscious

> decision to stop caring so much about other people. When someone

told

> me how they felt, I went beyond empathy such that I *felt* their

pain

> as if it were my own. I realized this wasn't useful to me

> (exhausting!) or the person confiding in me (dragged into the same

> abyss). So I forced myself not to take other people's pain to

heart so

> much.

>

> > I learned to apologize to my kids from birth, I'm a chronic

> > apologizer, but now I try to reserve them for when I have really

> > done wrong (plenty of opportunity), and I've stressed to the

kids

> > that mistakes are truly how we learn. I think life is a process,

and

> > we'll never be finished, polished, perfect, but the work toward

> > improvement has brought joy, when I can let myself feel it and

know

> > I deserve it...

>

> Good for you! You've accomplished an amazing about-face from the

way

> people like us were raised to be. That is so comforting to hear! If

> you can do it, maybe I can too. Thanks for sharing this.

>

> qwerty

>