Re: How to make NT's understand a bit.

[Guest guest]

>

> I would suspect that you just haven't actually met that

> many other aspies/auties as some of us have. There is a

> wide variety reasons why some people don't have the capa-

> bility of sustaining a job in the workplace.

>

Sure. Let's assume that this is Temple Grandin's utopia (autopia?),

you are good at what you do, and people are likely to demand you based

on your " skills " and not your " personality " . Let's, in this case,

assume you're an engineer, computer person, or web production artist.

You're great at it, you get complimented all the time, you're in a

" good Aspie field " and your overfocus/attention to detail gives you a

natural edge.

Furthermore, in my imaginary scenario, you have many of the hallmarks

of a " Successful Aspie " in that you have a stable group of friends

outside of work whom you see often enough for your tastes, you have

fulfilling hobbies, you may even have a romantic partner. You are well

groomed, know the rules for etiquette and nobody is ever embarassed in

your company. I am assuming that you know how to wear the NT mask, or

that you work in an environment where you are not going to face direct

Aspie persecution.

Let's look at the other things that can possibly go wrong on the job,

that have nothing to do with having chosen the right or wrong

vocation. They have nothing to do with social skills on the job, but

specifically with things that occur en route to work, working

conditions, and social expectations outside of work. There are a few

social things that go wrong in these scenarios, but I am imagining

that you already know when to be friendly and when not to, you already

know not to be the first to bring up your Interest, you already know

when the other person wants a word in, et cetera, et cetera.

They are, specifically, things that have happened to *me*. This

scenario is not any one job, but rather, all of the " Aspie Safe "

career-track professional jobs I've held. Even when I worked with

other obvious Aspies. For the most perfect managers.

* You have to do too many overtime hours, and the nature of your

industry is to require these, and having a weaker immune system and

generally more fragile nature than your NT coworkers, you find

yourself getting sick the moment you do one hour of overtime. Because

you can't do overtime, your contracts never get extended, or you get

let go, and you go a long time between jobs because overtime is the

nature of the beast.

* For whatever reason, you can't drive. For some of us, it's because

our neuro issues prevent us from driving safely. But for others of us

- we simply are never in the right financial position to buy a car,

and we know that our work record is going to be too spotty in the

future to feasibly support a car and its related expenses. This was/is

my situation.

* Your work is far from your home. Let's say your work is always in

Silicon Valley, but because you're sporadically employed, you can't

afford a Silicon Valley apartment like all the other geeks. You

attempt to find a roommate to defray costs, but nobody wants to be a

roommate with you, and whenever it does seem like you're getting

somewhere with a roomie situation, the person finds someone else at

the last minute and flakes on you. This baffles you since you have no

trouble making *friends* and you have quite a romantic track record.

Now if you can't drive, and your work is far from home, this creates

other problems. Let me go on.

* You get to spend three hours each way in a commute on public

transit. Some nice lady always gets on the shuttle and sits next to

you and starts talking to you, even if she sees you reading a book or

trying to sleep. Or you keep zoning out and missing your stop, and

having to backtrack. One way or the other, you are always too wiped

out to work when you get to work.

* You carpool with people, but mysteriously they stop wanting to

carpool with you. Or, they will want to talk when you need quiet.

Because you can't drive for whatever reason, you lose your ride to

work.

* You're either a contractor or a chronic job-hopper (through no

intention of your own), and you are always trying to learn a new job

situation. You never get to stay long enough to learn; everyone else

has already " got it " and you are just starting to " get it " when they

decide you're " too slow " .

* Your manager, whom you got along well with, quits or is fired. You

do not know how to communicate with the person who replaces him, or

the person who replaces him does not know how to manage you.

* Some of your coworkers change, leaving you feeling disoriented.

* Your company moves, leaving you feeling disoriented.

* Your company relocates to a place near where they test aircraft

engines, and you have to deal with constant loud noises and the

windows rattling.

* Your company asks you to do overtime at the last minute, disrupting

several daily routines necessary to your well-being.

* You're deeply lonely and can't keep from obsessively thinking about

romantic relationships while on the job - with an Aspie's typical

focus. Any time you get romantically involved, it disrupts your work.

Other people seem to be able to get in and out of relationships. Sure,

they cry on their friend's couch for a few days, or even weeks, when

the relationship ends; they gain ten pounds eating a pint of

Haagen-Dasz a day. But they don't lose their jobs over it. Case in

point: I was not able to focus on *anything* else for very long until

I was married. I was either obsessed with a new person, or obsessed

with the end of a relationship, or obsessed with the search for one,

or obsessed with trying to put it all out of my head. Now that I am

married, I am able to focus on school for the first time since

puberty.

* Your boss is a neurotypical, Myers-Briggs SJ, and isn't used to how

to manage computer people or artistic types. This has happened to me

mostly in small companies where there was little buffer between me and

the neurotyp SJ manager. In larger companies, my next-up was most

likely another computer person, possibly an Aspie himself, probably a

Myers-Briggs NT (iNtuitive Thinker).

I mention this because neurotyp-SJs are the type that is most allergic

to Aspies, in my observation, and they are the most noxious,

rules-lawyer type of typicals. We should learn to spot them right off,

AND NEVER, EVER WORK FOR THEM WHEN WE CAN AVOID IT.

* Because of the autism, you have many issues in common with the

transgendered, although you are comfortable with your gender or don't

have a strong connection to either gender.

Basically, you present with gender-based cues that would be acceptable

in the opposite sex but are not acceptable in your own sex. You

constantly have to deal with hazing or people trying to " correct " you

into proper gendered behavior that you cannot display. You are

disliked on the job for behavior that would be acceptable in the

opposite sex. You cannot display the " proper " gender of paralanguage

for your sex. It has nothing to do with how heterosexual you are or

how you dress. You have to face the subtle persecution of being

suspected of being gay.

This leads you to have trouble every time you have to work with your

own sex. Gay or bi coworkers try to get involved with you, and you

think they are trying to be friends, then you don't understand why

they suddenly don't want to be friends; this leads you to be even more

untrusting and unfriendly.

Or, you end up being left out of the " gender clubhouse " of

heterosexual coworkers of your own sex. If you're a woman, the other

women leave you out of things; if you're a man, the other men leave

you out of things.

Actually the thought that I might never again have to work next to or

for another person with breasts, was 80% of what got me into

computers.

This isn't irreparable. I am most comfortable in environments where

there is a good mix of straight and openly queer (not straight-acting)

people, and I have come to have a number of transgendered friends and

feel a lot of solidarity for their causes. I would probably get along

best at a job where there is acceptance of gender variance.

Actually, displaying " improperly gendered paralanguage " has been THE

major issue. I bet that a lot of us have this issue. I would be

completely acceptable as a male. Except, I have no particular desire

to *become* a male.

--

there are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall

about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other

is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in

them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors.

-- C.S.

[Guest guest]

Griff Sanford wrote:

>Watch that bouncing assumption. I can think and write fine. I can't work

>to save my life. People freak me out.

>

If you can write well, perhaps you can do that professionally.

Ride the Music

AndyTiedye

[Guest guest]

alfamanda wrote:

>, who's considered intelligent (although she doesn't know what

>that word means) and a good writer (when writing is possible at all)

>and has been evaluated over and over again by professionals who had

>strong incentive to say she was employable, but who've said the

>prospect of gainful employment in this society -- or even " employment "

>in a sheltered workshop -- is laughable at best

>

>

You ARE a good writer, and what you have been through at the hands of

incompetent

" professionals " needs to be published far more widely than these mailing

lists, so that we

can make it stop happening to others who are still in their clutches.

You have extensively

researched the subject of autism as well. I really hope that you

publish some of your writing

some day.

Ride the Music

AndyTiedye

[Guest guest]

> Griff Sanford wrote:

> >Watch that bouncing assumption. I can think and write fine.

> >I can't work to save my life. People freak me out.

And AndyTiedye replied:

> If you can write well, perhaps you can do that professionally.

Hey, maybe I could too! I've always wanted to be a political

speechwriter. I think I'll start writing speeches for

, with the theme of getting the working class back to

their Democratic roots, and thus get elected Prez.

And then maybe pigs will grow wings and fly!

I think that Griff is pretty rational, and knows himself

better than you or I do. :-)

Clay

[Guest guest]

> You ARE a good writer, and what you have been through at the hands

> of incompetent " professionals " needs to be published far more widely

> than these mailing lists, so that we can make it stop happening to

> others who are still in their clutches. You have extensively

> researched the subject of autism as well. I really hope that you

> publish some of your writing some day.

I undoubtedly will (in fact I'm part of such a project now), but I was

talking about making a *living* from writing, which is different than

publishing something here or there. (I simply *cannot* do

intellectual work, including writing, consistently enough for making a

living. I don't know if you are one of those people or not who

considers that " putting oneself down " , but it isn't -- I don't derive

my self-esteem from whether or not I can work.)

[Guest guest]

> Let's look at the other things that can possibly go wrong on the

> job, that have nothing to do with having chosen the right or wrong

> vocation. They have nothing to do with social skills on the job, but

> specifically with things that occur en route to work, working

> conditions, and social expectations outside of work. There are a few

> social things that go wrong in these scenarios, but I am imagining

> that you already know when to be friendly and when not to, you

> already know not to be the first to bring up your Interest, you

> already know when the other person wants a word in, et cetera, et

> cetera.

> They are, specifically, things that have happened to *me*. This

> scenario is not any one job, but rather, all of the " Aspie Safe "

> career-track professional jobs I've held. Even when I worked with

> other obvious Aspies. For the most perfect managers.

I've never had a career-track professional job, but here are some of

the things that have gone wrong for me in jobs I have had (some of

which would be fixable by workplace modifications or finding another

line of work, others of which would not):

* Being unable to intuitively figure out how to stock shelves, when

the stock on the shelves is constantly shifting position due to new

products arriving and there is not enough space for it all.

* Overloading too rapidly in the workplace to be able to complete a

full workday, needing too much time to zone out and/or shut down and

therefore not being a particularly productive employee.

* Having a constantly-shifting, inconsistent, and unpredictable set of

abilities that means one minute I can read and the next I can't, one

minute I can write and the next I can't, one minute I can understand

speech and the next I can't, one minute I can move and the next I can

't, one minute and I can deal with some kinds of abstraction and the

next I can't, one minute I can process what my environment

looks/sounds/feels like in general and the next I can't, one minute I

can follow sequential instructions and the next I can't, and so forth.

This being sort of a cycle of narrowly focusing on one ability and

having it burn out while another one takes its place, a cycle of

constant partial shutdown. This means that even when I can achieve

what to others would be absolute excellence in a skill, it does not

mean it will be there when the employment situation demands it, and in

some cases it can be gone for far longer than sick leave would allow.

* Related to that, having shifts *within* skills that are not usually

well-understood by NTs. For instance, I can write, but I can only

write on a narrow range of topics and only write on those topics when

I *can* write about them. No amount of effort changes this. I am

currently (in everyday life) trying to shift my writing toward a

certain topic that is very important to me and time-sensitive, but I

have been unable to completely do so. I can *think* perfectly well

about the topic, but dealing with my word-generation machine is like

trying to drag something at a distance; it takes awhile to get to its

new destination. It is very deceiving because what I can write about

often looks excellent but there are things I can't write a *single

sentence* about despite knowing them perfectly well, and those

outnumber the topics I can write about by a longshot. This applies to

other things besides writing too.

* Being unable to properly direct autopilot enough to generate the

proper actions at the proper times. Someone might tell me to do one

thing, but I end up doing something completely different, not because

I didn't understand but because it set off the wrong motor routine.

Or I stop in the middle of doing something and get lost and can't

remember what I'm supposed to do next, why I am doing what I'm doing,

or what's going on in general.

* Even if I miraculously make it through a workday, often having to

spend the rest of the day unable to fulfill basic biological needs

(which potentially means some combination of many or all of the

following: no eating, no water, urinating/etc wherever I sit or stand,

little to no comprehension of surroundings, little to no ability to

react meaningfully to surroundings, little to no communication, and

quite possibly very destructive and/or loud meltdowns, while I'm

either stuck in one spot or wandering aimlessly).

* For that matter, I can't usually even fulfill those biological needs

in a day, much less work on top of that.

I was talking to an autistic friend about this recently. She and I

were talking about how no matter how much you *know*, there's often

with autism a limit to how much you can *do*.

Like you can learn all there is to know about computer programming,

but can you reliably read and write and comprehend and move enough to

program all the time for a living? How is all that knowledge going to

help you if you sit down in front of a computer and just see a

confusing mass of colors? If you can hold the programs you want to

program in your head but as soon as you move you lose the thinking and

therefore can't type it into the computer? How is it going to help

you if, after a short burst of intense and brilliant programming, you

can no longer read or write for the rest of the day because your

information processing circuits are too backlogged? How is it going

to help you if your focus is so narrow and so slow to shift that,

while you *know* all the modern programming languages, all you can

focus on at a particular time is SNOBOL when you really need C++?

I've found myself rather embarrassed at times by even having to back

out of one-time volunteer-work commitments because whatever I needed

to be able to do wasn't there the day I needed to be able to do it. I

now rarely commit myself to anything unless the people involved

understand this is a possibility. In order to keep anything up enough

to be gainfully employed doing it, it's like that situation, only

multiplied exponentially and neverending.

There *are* autistics who can do gainful employment in any of a number

of areas, and I have a big problem with the barriers put up in front

of that for many of them. I also wish I lived in a society where the

contributions I *do* make were recognized for what they were, rather

than compared to some kind of " ideal and consistent worker " that I'll

probably never be and found lacking -- a society in which I wouldn't

be separated off from the " good kind of people " as " one of those

people who can't work, " I'd just be me and people like me wouldn't be

put down and even demonized half the time. But while *I* don't feel

ashamed of my inability to work in standard ways, the majority of

contemporary American society is *very* far from viewing me as a

contributing member, and some others I know are considered even less

so because they don't speak or write. (I am very frightened by the

increase in posters and the like talking of the " cost " of people like

me. That kind of propaganda, in my mind, has a direct connection to,

for instance, the attitudes surrounding a guy I know right now who has

no writing or speech, only can hold the knowledge of about 7 signs in

his head at the same time, and has had medical problems that have gone

untreated so long his life is in danger, and gone untreated

specifically *because* a doctor has been acting as if he doesn't have

anything to contribute anyway and just takes up space so what's the

point. The view of him as a real person seems to be lost on a number

of people, and I'm sure he is seen by many as just a drain on the

system. This infuriates me beyond words.)

> * Because of the autism, you have many issues in common with the

> transgendered, although you are comfortable with your gender or

> don't have a strong connection to either gender.

> Basically, you present with gender-based cues that would be

> acceptable in the opposite sex but are not acceptable in your own

> sex. You constantly have to deal with hazing or people trying to

> " correct " you into proper gendered behavior that you cannot display.

> You are disliked on the job for behavior that would be acceptable in

> the opposite sex. You cannot display the " proper " gender of

> paralanguage for your sex. It has nothing to do with how

> heterosexual you are or how you dress. You have to face the subtle

> persecution of being suspected of being gay.

> This leads you to have trouble every time you have to work with your

> own sex. Gay or bi coworkers try to get involved with you, and you

> think they are trying to be friends, then you don't understand why

> they suddenly don't want to be friends; this leads you to be even

> more untrusting and unfriendly.

> Or, you end up being left out of the " gender clubhouse " of

> heterosexual coworkers of your own sex. If you're a woman, the other

> women leave you out of things; if you're a man, the other men leave

> you out of things.

> Actually the thought that I might never again have to work next to

> or for another person with breasts, was 80% of what got me into

> computers.

> This isn't irreparable. I am most comfortable in environments where

> there is a good mix of straight and openly queer (not

> straight-acting) people, and I have come to have a number of

> transgendered friends and feel a lot of solidarity for their causes.

> I would probably get along best at a job where there is acceptance

> of gender variance.

Debra (who is both gay and a non-stereotypical woman) has been

penalized a number of times for behavior that I suspect would have

been perfectly accepted if she were male. It's not behavior that

would jeopardize her job performance. She is criticized for being

" harsh " when she is merely direct in the manner that men are usually

direct.

> Actually, displaying " improperly gendered paralanguage " has been

> THE major issue. I bet that a lot of us have this issue. I would be

> completely acceptable as a male. Except, I have no particular desire

> to *become* a male.

That is how Debra seems to be regarded by some employers, as not

displaying enough femininity.

[Guest guest]

The gender issue resonates with me. I have had the most trouble with jobs

where I'm expected to be " one of the girls. " I was a patent secretary for

years. My direct bosses, my attorneys, loved me because I could practically

do their job for them and I got everything done on time. My office

managers, who were (inexplicably to me) the ones responsible for my pay,

always hated my guts. I never got invited to the little parties, I got

called on the carpet for stupid shit. Once, I wrote a Word macro that

reduced an hour-long job to 5 minutes. This was significant for me because

it was a job I had to do up to 100 times in a row several times a year. I

took it to the office manager because I thought the rest of the office could

use it, and I got yelled at because programming wasn't in my job

description. I got in trouble because my desk was too organized, my work

piles were too neat, I spent time restocking my desk and redoing files. I

couldn't stand it when I got a file that had three different kinds of number

tabs, illegible handwriting, and papers falling out, so I would redo it so

it all looked the same. Nevermind that I did in fact get my work done, they

hated me.

I've done better in programming jobs, but I still don't work well in an

office. I can't focus for 8 hours a day in an environment where I can't

cuss at the computer, sit in strange positions, listen to loud music, or any

number of other ways that I focus myself but that drive other people nuts.

I can get away with it at home, because I can do in 2 hours what the average

person does in 8 anyway. I just have accepted that I can't hold an office

job, or any job that requires me to work set hours even.

Elayne

http://cablespeed.com/~solinox/index.htm

" Those who refuse to support and defend a state have no claim to protection

by that state. "

[Guest guest]

Forgot to mention that I can't meet dress codes, which is a big problem that

most people don't think twice about. My " uniform " these days is jeans and a

shirt, because I know it " matches. " I could never figure out what to wear,

the stuff I came up with for work was always strange-looking or just flat

inappropriate. So then I'd have to put up with the looks and comments for

that, too. I've tried to get friends to go shopping with me, hoping

somebody will pick out stuff for me, but it never quite works that way.

Elayne

http://cablespeed.com/~solinox/index.htm

" Those who refuse to support and defend a state have no claim to protection

by that state. "

[Guest guest]

> Actually, displaying " improperly gendered paralanguage " has been THE

> major issue. I bet that a lot of us have this issue. I would be

> completely acceptable as a male. Except, I have no particular desire

> to *become* a male.

I wonder if this is a geographic issue? I don't know, I'm not a woman, so

I can't comment on that side of things. But according to at least ,

I don't always give off the proper non-verbals for my gender. I don't

date, or give anyone that type of cue that I'm a " normal " straight male.

I've yet to have any problems with this, at least since I was in high

school.

I've worked for some pretty non-stereotypical women. One in particular in

Denver who definitely cussed more then anyone - of any gender - I've ever

known. She was a vice president in the company of about 100 people. I

remember one time the office workers all took up a pool to bet how long

she could go without cussing; when she found out about the pool (with a

statement made to us along the lines of " What the fuck do you think your

doing? You'd need my cooperation and you aren't going to get it! " ), she

asked what was in it for her. We agreed we'd pay her the entire pot if

she went longer then the longest bet, which was 3 days. She made it a day

and a half...and cussed out the CEO. She was probably the best manager

I've ever worked for, and I think almost everyone who worked for her felt

the same (she tended to have people either really like her or really

dislike her, but from what I could tell the only people who didn't like

her were people who weren't hard workers and honest about their work

progress).

I've not seen the " transgender " problem here, but that could be because

I'm in the midwest or because I'm not a woman. I'm not sure which.

--

[Guest guest]

a.f. wrote:

>* Your manager, whom you got along well with, quits or is fired. You

>do not know how to communicate with the person who replaces him, or

>the person who replaces him does not know how to manage you.

[snip]

>Actually, displaying " improperly gendered paralanguage " has been THE

>major issue.

I almost had both of these together a few years ago. My boss was

going to turn his administrative posts (including being my boss) over

to a new person. For a while, it looked like my new boss would be a

woman who has a strong dislike of my " improperly gendered

paralanguage. " She doesn't think of it that way, of course; she

simply sees me as rude and unfriendly. It would have been a very

difficult position for me to maintain, if she'd been my boss.

Fortunately, someone else came forward and saved me from possible

job-loss.

Jane

[Guest guest]

>Griff Sanford wrote:

> >Watch that bouncing assumption. I can think and write fine. I can't work

> >to save my life. People freak me out.

and Andy responded:

>If you can write well, perhaps you can do that professionally.

People have been telling me for decades that I write well.

Unfortunately, writing " professionally " (for money) is a job I can't

possibly do. It requires " selling yourself " and " making contacts " and

lots of executive function.

Jane

[Guest guest]

> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:46:57 -0000, Clay

> wrote:

>>

>> I would suspect that you just haven't actually met that

>> many other aspies/auties as some of us have. There is a

>> wide variety reasons why some people don't have the capa-

>> bility of sustaining a job in the workplace.

>>

>

> Sure. Let's assume that this is Temple Grandin's utopia (autopia?),

> you are good at what you do, and people are likely to demand you based

> on your " skills " and not your " personality " . Let's, in this case,

> assume you're an engineer, computer person, or web production artist.

> You're great at it, you get complimented all the time, you're in a

> " good Aspie field " and your overfocus/attention to detail gives you a

> natural edge.

{snip long list of example problematic situations]

As much as I hate " me, too " posts, I have to say that I, too, have been

thru many scenarios similar to these, so I'd like to thank you for

explaining all of this. (I don't have a car, either, never have; have

*very* often been suspected of being gay; many of the other things,

too.)

I suggest you hang onto this post for future use -- if my experience is

anything like yours, you'll need it, especially when dealing with NT's

who keep insisting that you can " make it " if you just " try harder " . It

might be useful/helpful in your LJ or in the LJ Asperger list. And if

it's OK with you, I'd like permission to show it to others as well to

try to explain the kind of garbage I have to deal with sometimes.

-----

Homemade scented candles to bring warmth and fragrance to your home...

Knight Scents

http://www.knightscents.biz

[Guest guest]

> Actually, displaying " improperly gendered paralanguage " has been THE

> major issue. I bet that a lot of us have this issue. I would be

> completely acceptable as a male.

Guess what? This is a major issue for me, too. And this is also why I

hate working for females. It's one thing to have to just be left out

of the girls' club, and another to not be able to communicate with

your boss.

Just today, I was trying to force myself to socialize the NT female

way at work because I realized I have to make a few attemps to look

friendly. It's only been a month at this new job and I can already

feel something's a little off with the women I'm working with,

including my team lead.

Look at female coworker's cousin's wedding photos and swoon... " OH,

she looks SO cute in that dress! " while thinking I would trip over and

die within minutes of either wearing or being in the vicinity of that

monstrosity. Force myself to make eye contact while talking. Attempt a

cute smile. Control usual stims. UGH! What a crap day.

Sorry, just had to vent a little.

Oya