Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 I hope you are right. It is one of those fears I have. I often wonder at what age can you correctly diagnose mental health problems. I know in my case, being bipolar, my therapist and I can trace episodes back to the 2nd grade. I guess, about 7-8 years old. I was an over achiever but every year there was a dip in my grades and I went into this really lethargic mode. I know that is way too early to properly diagnose but I think the seeds for my disorder were there. Now whether or not it was biological or environmental I don't know. Nada was starting to go funny at that point. At least, that's when she was diagnosed as agoraphobic and things started to really go down hill. > > I recently heard of a case of a 12-yr-old being diagnosed with BPD. > This kind of didn't ring true to me. BPD is a diagnosis of a personality > type, yes, but surely the personality hasn't developed at 12. > I'm wondering if this is one of those " therapy dumpster " diagnosis, the > kid was just too hard for the therapist. Maybe the therapist was too > hard for the kid, God knows Ive had one of them before... > OR ELSE... > The parent is projecting their BP onto the kid. " Oh he hit me " while > neglecting to say that s/he had kicked shit out of the kid for 20 > minutes before. And the kid had had enough. Thump. > > As for me, I'm kind of hoping the therapist was too hard for the kid... > > What are your thoughts? > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 Umm when did you actually recieve treatment? It would have been hard to actually diagnose you at 8. > I know in my case, being bipolar, my therapist and I can trace > episodes back to the 2nd grade. I guess, about 7-8 years old. I was > an over achiever but every year there was a dip in my grades and I > went into this really lethargic mode. I know that is way too early to > properly diagnose but I think the seeds for my disorder were there. > Now whether or not it was biological or environmental I don't know. > Nada was starting to go funny at that point. At least, that's when > she was diagnosed as agoraphobic and things started to really go down > hill. Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 I hope that theropist was wrong about that child, but that is the debate between nurture or nature. Are they born this way? If the answer is yes, well than that child could be diagnosed with it. I think it is nature with some nurture, in some cases. My nada had a pretty normal childhood and so did my niece. Both BPD's. My sister and Lynn were raised by a BP mother and they have it. Jan and I were also raised by the same BP mother and due not have BPD. I think they are wired wrong and when you throw an abusive childhood in on it, the BPD is made worse. My theropist, who is has treated many BPD's, thinks that even in the most perfect of situations (childhood)BP's my function a little better, may have better behavioral skills, but not " normal " always on the edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 If children are genetically predisposed to developing personality traits, it would mean that their parent/s are as well. If their personalities start developing in that direction, it calls for urgent intervention to right it, and I think that's what happened with me through the endless psychologists. It doesn't necessarily mean they WILL develop it, but shit, there'd be something a little dysfunctional in that family and it's not the responsibility of the child to make it functional. What could make a family functional if it has a BP adult there? Nothing. Re: Childhood BPD I hope that theropist was wrong about that child, but that is the debate between nurture or nature. Are they born this way? If the answer is yes, well than that child could be diagnosed with it. I think it is nature with some nurture, in some cases. My nada had a pretty normal childhood and so did my niece. Both BPD's. My sister and Lynn were raised by a BP mother and they have it. Jan and I were also raised by the same BP mother and due not have BPD. I think they are wired wrong and when you throw an abusive childhood in on it, the BPD is made worse. My theropist, who is has treated many BPD's, thinks that even in the most perfect of situations (childhood)BP's my function a little better, may have better behavioral skills, but not " normal " always on the edge. Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 That's a strange diagnosis for a 12-year old. Part of the problem I can see with diagnosing an adolescent for BPD is that many of them are in the developmental stage in which black and white thinking is totally normal. Also, they can sometimes be prone to manipulative behavior or acting out as they test others to see if they can get their way. It sounds like BP in adult, but is normal for a teenager. And talk about separation anxiety and unsure identity--uh, how would you really be able to tell for sure? Has anyone heard the saying that " behavior that would be considered psychotic in an adult is considered normal for a teenager. " They just aren't done developing yet. I use many of the same techniques that help me with my (normal) students on my nada--and they work. The difference is she's 55 and the behavior seems ridiculous for her age. --T > > I recently heard of a case of a 12-yr-old being diagnosed with BPD. > This kind of didn't ring true to me. BPD is a diagnosis of a personality > type, yes, but surely the personality hasn't developed at 12. > I'm wondering if this is one of those " therapy dumpster " diagnosis, the > kid was just too hard for the therapist. Maybe the therapist was too > hard for the kid, God knows Ive had one of them before... > OR ELSE... > The parent is projecting their BP onto the kid. " Oh he hit me " while > neglecting to say that s/he had kicked shit out of the kid for 20 > minutes before. And the kid had had enough. Thump. > > As for me, I'm kind of hoping the therapist was too hard for the kid... > > What are your thoughts? > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 , Children and esp adolescents can do a lot of BPD-ish acting out behaviors--without being BPD. Therefore, (IMHO) I don't think a decent therapist would label a child in this way. As you pointed out, an adult personality is not yet formed at age 12. Two relevant quotes below... Flea A quote from http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic270.htm. " Personality disorders are not formally diagnosed in patients younger than 18 years because of the ongoing developmental changes in areas that become more defined personality traits in adulthood. However, if the disturbance is pervasive and if the criteria are fully and persistently met, diagnosing BPD in children and adolescents is appropriate. Furthermore, the disturbance must not be limited to a developmental stage. " A quote from http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/personality_disorders.jsp " Personality disorders have their onset in late adolescence or early adulthood. Doctors rarely give a diagnosis of personality disorder to children on the grounds that children's personalities are still in the process of formation and may change considerably by the time they are in their late teens. But, in retrospect, many individuals with personality disorders could be judged to have shown evidence of the problems in childhood. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 >I'm wondering if this is one of those " therapy dumpster " diagnosis, the > kid was just too hard for the therapist. Maybe the therapist was too > hard for the kid, God knows Ive had one of them before... > OR ELSE... > The parent is projecting their BP onto the kid. " Oh he hit me " while > neglecting to say that s/he had kicked shit out of the kid for 20 > minutes before. And the kid had had enough. Thump. > > As for me, I'm kind of hoping the therapist was too hard for the kid... > > What are your thoughts? Hi , I have read of and know that by adolescense a child can have BPD. I would think it would be a plus to be diagnosed correctlyl at such a young age. There may be more help at such a young age. There is a sight for parents who have a BPD child to post like we do. So I think the diagnosis could have been valid. Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 > > " Personality disorders have their onset in late adolescence or early > adulthood. Doctors rarely give a diagnosis of personality disorder to > children on the grounds that children's personalities are still in the > process of formation and may change considerably by the time they are > in their late teens. But, in retrospect, many individuals with > personality disorders could be judged to have shown evidence of the > problems in childhood. " > BPD Central has a site containing a booklet for parents of children diagnosed with BPD and how they can keep it from destoying them or their family. It must happen sometimes that BPD can come at an earlier age. Dr. Heller thinks that BPD diagnoses of children is probably more likely to be ADHD. I think there is a lot we still don't know about BPD. Certainly is a lot I don't know. Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 > Also, they can sometimes be prone to > manipulative behavior or acting out as they test others to see if they > can get their way. It > sounds like BP in adult, but is normal for a teenager. And talk about > separation anxiety > and unsure identity--uh, how would you really be able to tell for > sure? Im not at all sure that the pattern of massively unstable relationships could be set at 12. Certainly it wouldn't be all that newsworthy; didn't you have " flavour of the month " friends as well? Except if their parents had a PD, that one is likely to be a *bit* unstable, in which case gettem outta there ASAP. It's not the kid's role to get the family stable when the parents are ripping people's heads off. Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 I am very skeptical about diagnosing children w/bpd, because there is so much room for mis-diagnosis, and it can have such a detrimental effect on the child. That being said, I'm almost positive my sister has always been bpd. This post has made me think about some of her behaviours when she was a child. The biggest thing is that there was no 'there', there. No person you could really seem to reach. A few times, I tried to confide in her, but I found out quickly that anything I told her would be 'used'--mostly told to nada. Used for an ends, at my expense. Whenever I bought friends home, she would try to steal them. It wasn't just that I didn't want my annoying little sis to play with us. She didn't know HOW to play. She only knew how to try and use my friends to make me feel bad. And, whenever I tried to play with her alone, it just didn't work. Though I have very few memories of this--it's very fuzzy. I have suppressed most of childhood. I remember being frustrated because she would cheat at games. I remember that we very rarely played together. Every time I tried to play with her, she made me feel bad, somehow. Though I didn't understand it then. When we were growing up, I just always considered her an enemy--another branch of nada, existing solely to inflict pain upon me. I also remember that whenever she would go through my things, like read my diary or something, she wouldn't have the sense to hide the evidence. She would just leave it out, so it was obvious she had rummaged through. I never understood that. I also remember that she would do things purposefully to annoy me==not just like being a little brat, but much more sinister. Then, when I would get annoyed, she and nada would call me 'oscar the grouch' and go on about how 'mean and hateful' I was. She also used to tell nada I had done bad things that I hadn't, just to get the sympathy. As she became an adolescent and teenager, she began to 'merge' with boys, and behave in ways I couldn't believe my father allowed. She treated them appallingly, cheating, etc, but she never went without one. Whenever I was around, she would use these guys to try and make me feel uncomfortable and rejected in various ways. She was also very moody, and would snap and snarl one moment, and be sweet and sugary whenever she wanted something. She also would milk my father for expensive things. She asked for appalling things, way out of line with our income, and she got most of them. Starting from about age 14, I think, maybe younger. She never grew tired of pushing, asking him for more and more and more, and it didn't bother to do it until he snapped. It used to freak me out, how she could dare to ask for such things. She then would use them to show she was 'loved' more than me. To this day, it is very important to her to show SHE is the good one, she is the one who can get a guy, and nice things. She tries to enter that dynamic whenever she has access to me. Hmmm... I don't think about this much. Maybe there was some point where she didn't HAVE to be a bpd, and she could have been turned. I'm not sure. But her tendencies toward it have been evident her entire life. Charlie > > Also, they can sometimes be prone to > > manipulative behavior or acting out as they test others to see if they > > can get their way. It > > sounds like BP in adult, but is normal for a teenager. And talk about > > separation anxiety > > and unsure identity--uh, how would you really be able to tell for > > sure? > > Im not at all sure that the pattern of massively unstable relationships > could be set at 12. Certainly it wouldn't be all that newsworthy; didn't > you have " flavour of the month " friends as well? > > Except if their parents had a PD, that one is likely to be a *bit* > unstable, in which case gettem outta there ASAP. It's not the kid's role > to get the family stable when the parents are ripping people's heads > off. > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 Charlie, and All, I'm confident that my brother has ALWAYS been at least NPD, if not BPD. One Non-BP Recovering Man --- charlottehoneychurch wrote: > I am very skeptical about diagnosing children w/bpd, because there > is so much room for mis-diagnosis, and it can have such a > detrimental effect on the child. That being said, I'm almost > positive my sister has always been bpd. This post has made me think > about some of her behaviours when she was a child. > > The biggest thing is that there was no 'there', there. No person > you could really seem to reach. A few times, I tried to confide in > her, but I found out quickly that anything I told her would > be 'used'--mostly told to nada. Used for an ends, at my expense. > Whenever I bought friends home, she would try to steal them. It > wasn't just that I didn't want my annoying little sis to play with > us. She didn't know HOW to play. She only knew how to try and use > my friends to make me feel bad. And, whenever I tried to play with > her alone, it just didn't work. Though I have very few memories of > this--it's very fuzzy. I have suppressed most of childhood. I > remember being frustrated because she would cheat at games. I > remember that we very rarely played together. Every time I tried to > play with her, she made me feel bad, somehow. Though I didn't > understand it then. When we were growing up, I just always > considered her an enemy--another branch of nada, existing solely to > inflict pain upon me. I also remember that whenever she would go > through my things, like read my diary or something, she wouldn't > have the sense to hide the evidence. She would just leave it out, > so it was obvious she had rummaged through. I never understood > that. I also remember that she would do things purposefully to > annoy me==not just like being a little brat, but much more > sinister. Then, when I would get annoyed, she and nada would call > me 'oscar the grouch' and go on about how 'mean and hateful' I was. > She also used to tell nada I had done bad things that I hadn't, just > to get the sympathy. > > As she became an adolescent and teenager, she began to 'merge' with > boys, and behave in ways I couldn't believe my father allowed. She > treated them appallingly, cheating, etc, but she never went without > one. Whenever I was around, she would use these guys to try and > make me feel uncomfortable and rejected in various ways. She was > also very moody, and would snap and snarl one moment, and be sweet > and sugary whenever she wanted something. She also would milk my > father for expensive things. She asked for appalling things, way > out of line with our income, and she got most of them. Starting > from about age 14, I think, maybe younger. She never grew tired of > pushing, asking him for more and more and more, and it didn't bother > to do it until he snapped. It used to freak me out, how she could > dare to ask for such things. She then would use them to show she > was 'loved' more than me. To this day, it is very important to her > to show SHE is the good one, she is the one who can get a guy, and > nice things. She tries to enter that dynamic whenever she has > access to me. > > Hmmm... I don't think about this much. Maybe there was some point > where she didn't HAVE to be a bpd, and she could have been turned. > I'm not sure. But her tendencies toward it have been evident her > entire life. > > Charlie > > > > > Also, they can sometimes be prone to > > > manipulative behavior or acting out as they test others to see > if they > > > can get their way. It > > > sounds like BP in adult, but is normal for a teenager. And talk > about > > > separation anxiety > > > and unsure identity--uh, how would you really be able to tell for > > > sure? > > > > Im not at all sure that the pattern of massively unstable > relationships > > could be set at 12. Certainly it wouldn't be all that newsworthy; > didn't > > you have " flavour of the month " friends as well? > > > > Except if their parents had a PD, that one is likely to be a *bit* > > unstable, in which case gettem outta there ASAP. It's not the > kid's role > > to get the family stable when the parents are ripping people's > heads > > off. > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends > http://au.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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