Re: Traumatic shame, cult surviving, nihilism

November 18, 2005

Dear NBPD-Man,

Thank you for this post. I didn't find it disturbing,

incidentally. For most of us, the abuse truly was *that* serious.

Even if it was done 'subconsciously'. Even if our nadas could not

possibly admit to themselves they had done so.

I think an underlying point of my 'french toast' rampage, amusing as

it is on the surface, is how frightening the mind games can be.

Again and again, over the course of an entire childhood, my nada

used things as simple and innocuous as French toast as tools of

complete anhilation. She was seeking to 'merge' with me, or

demonize me, or do whatever she needed with me to assuage her

borderline cravings. It was complete exploitation. And, yes, it

was indeed as serious as you describe. What's so confusing to me,

this day, is the mind games she played to the effect of it was not

REALLY happening. You are not being attacked! I am loving! I am

cooking you a hot, delicious breakfast! Even though my logical mind

can grasp that she was acting destructively, it is still hard for

the child in me to comprehend. Especially when she enlists more

than one person to participate, and I am the only one in the room

thinking, but didn't you hear me when I said (or the doctor said)

that I shouldn't eat sugar, I shouldn't eat wheat?

Non-bpd dude, I am very happy to hear you and believe you. I wanted

to observe though, that it seems you are still having trouble being

heard. My Herman book, which is really a Bible to me, talks

about 'resolving' the trauma by having an authority figure, such as

a therapist, hear and believe the trauma, and begin to restore the

survivor's sense of justice and reality. I wish you much progress

in this area ... In fact I also wish that for myself, and for all of

us. It is very hard to believe sometimes that things truly WERE

that serious, they really were as serious as you describe in your

post.

Good luck

Charlie

November 18, 2005

Wow Non-BP! That's some really powerful stuff! I have often said to

people who use to question why or how I wouldn't talk to my nada or

be close to her, 'Well if Hitler were alive, would you ask a Jewish

person to befriend him? Then why ask me to embrace the same torturer

as no one in my life has inflicted as much torture as my mother.'

That puts things in perspective but people still don't like to see a

mother capable of being so abjectly abusive.

I haven't read any of Jean- Sartre's works though I've read about

him in school. I did find a similar irony lately in that when I was

in my early 20s and severely depressed and coming off many bp

behaviors of my own from hs, I was really into Herman Hesse and some

of his work. I found the book 'Steppen Wolf " to be particularly

appealing and reflective of my thought patterns. Now as I just

finished one book by Alice on Prisoner's of childhood, it

becomes aparent that Herman Hesse's parents were also NPDs like my

nada and so it comes out in his work and I related greatly to it.

I think your torture points are important. I like what you wrote

about being an object vs person. This is something I have struggled

w/for quite sometime- the dignity of human beings by the very fact

they are alive. This is something I ponder in light of the sexual

revolution as well- what seems to be liberating only enslaves to

greater degrees as I see in the playout of my Gen-X and subsequent

generations w/the connection of human sexuality w/love and dignity

and not mere objectification of others. I also ponder these things

in light of Columbine and school shootings. Why would kids not

objectify if they are objectified? Do they really grasp the gravity

of their actions when all they've been shown is that they are toys

(hence I again go back to human sexuality and the whole notion of

having a boy and girl being the ideal family in today's world- as

though the desires of the individual parents outweigh the rights of

the child to be born of whatever gender they were endowed w/at

conception- hence I have two boys and welcome whatever else gendered

child we would have in some future date- but I've lately been seeing

this 'ideal' family as rather objectifying as well) in their parent's

lives and not all parents but a good many. I find it terribly sad

when I've seen certain people tell their only child daughter or son

to make the decision to have mommy go back to work to afford the

things they have and have a younger sibling or to have mommy at home

and be an only child. As if those these things are questions to be

posed to children. As though objects and materialism is greater than

human relations (and sometimes in the BP world I definitely

understand the transference of emotions to things vs the very

betraying legacy of the FOO). This is something I was just pondering

yesterday as I do know several only kids whose parents posed these

questions at a young age. As though the option of doing w/less

material pleasures (not necessities by a long shot) would be an

option? But then again I've seen this in NPD families- only children

getting the parents illness in addition to the rest of their

inheritance.

I digress though. It seems to me to make sense that people WOULD be

objectified in the BP world if the original origins of this disease

can be traced back to a family history of sexual abuse at one time or

another- the shame bond. If a woman is used sexually as an object,

she then will learn to transfer that hatred of self onto her

offspring and thereby create a legacy of objectification of human

beings. Chances are great there are also other factors playing into

this such as where were the parents to protect the child and was the

mother of said little girl also abused sexually in childhood thereby

leading her to a new sense of normal- turning a blind eye to the

obvious? I've seen it time and time again. My sister-in-law, the

psychiatrist put it best. It takes seven generations to create a

psychopath (Saddam Hussien is a good example. He was not a

psychopath. He was an NPD. His sons, however, were psychotic and not

many cried when they were killed though it tends to be that the

neurotics make for more charismatic leaders in the persuasion fields

vs psychos- thinking also of Hitler and Napolean). She also says 'It

only takes one generation, however, to turn it around.' I've seen

that as well time and time again. Two of the closest families I've

had over the years have mother's whose parents had great

psychological problems- alcoholism, molestation, BPD, you name it.

But the moms changed the family tree. No idea how or why- mainly

moving far away - that is a definite constant variable. Those who

stay around seem to get sick too. These are women from a generation

where therapy was not common and so even stronger in my book in many

ways w/breaking the cycles of abuse.

I like the brainwashing stuff..the stuff you posted.It is interesting

w/cults and such. When I was in high school I was a gang member- a

punk rock gang mind you, but a gang none-the-less. I suppose that was

not accidental after being raised by the FOO. I'm not sure how I held

my own around those people, but I did for the most part and then I

drifted away when I moved out of my parents house. I didn't need the

gang anymore. I had myself and hope. I will say, however, movies

like the Godfather and such always appealled to me in my younger

years and it makes sense- the mobster/gang/brainwashing mentality.

ny Cash actually wrote a song about some of my ancestors as they

are the same ancestors of his wife, June (can't wait to see

the new movie out) w/a line " I killed a man just to watch him die. "

and that was the gang- a million time worse than the McCoys on

my dad's dad's side. The 's are the ones my grandnada came from

and they were pretty evil and warped and had the mob/gangsta

mentality. Not suprising I fell into a gang or that I have two

cousins that were in similar boats(actually one was more like a

sorrority in college where she was hazed. After growing up w/a nada,

hazing is a synch according to her).

Right now I feel like I'm also up against something in my current

circumstance (don't feel comfortable naming it as its really well

bashed in today's culture) that sometimes feels cultish and I've been

given definite red flags lately to keep my distance and keep my

center. I don't think they are inherintantly evil, but I sense a lot

of BPD and NPD characteristics that make me cringe. But brainwashing

is subtle in these things- a simple glace, an unspoken word, being

amidst them all and noticing everyone but me is using a knife to cut

a freaking banana and all kinds of unspoken rules that are meant to

coerce as well as establish dominance. I'm very grateful to again be

in therapy and figuring all these things out. So many people come

from dysfunction and so are prey to the acceptance rope thrown out by

seemingly well meaning groups. In other instances I say 'tis better

to be disliked by certain people, even hated if you will. I certainly

do NOT want the approval of people I don't particularly like or

approve of either.' That has been a long time coming- to get to this

point in my life where I'm not a people pleaser and take steps back

and go at my own pace. I do think, however, even some of the most

normal people can become victims of torture. I also believe there are

certain people that are much, much, much higher on the scales of

moral ethics and by their nature could not and would not submit as

they would die first- MLK and Ghandi to name a few.

Anyway, I just wanted to say your post really got me thinking. Thank

you for your deep insights and sharing them. I think you are right on

the money. I loved all that you had to say as well as quotes you

brought in from elsewhere. I'm also glad you realize your nada's

abuse of you went beyond scales of gender but rather a matter of

cutting down the weaker, the child. By the way, I have been to some

of the BP boards- those in recovery- and I definitely don't see

myself as one. the thing I found very interesting is one thread I

read a long, long time ago about how many BPs do not like the sight

of a baby. They were very honest but they used terms like 'freaky

little creatures' and 'looking like aliens' and not understanding how

everyone would think they are so cute. It freaked me out but now I

understand it from the fact they were probably tortured in their

childhood and have a natural aversion that is programed in them to

hate the weak- even on physical appearances. The weird thing is that

we are here- that they actually procreate, KWIM? Anyway, I just

thought of that too.

Best wishes and thanks again.

Kerrie

we have more

> > in common with

> > cult survivors and

> > > torture victims than we do with the typical

> > clinical picture of

> > > adults who were abused as children.

> > >

> > > Flea Bitten KO

> > > " There but for the grace of God.... "

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites

> > in one click.

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> > >

> >

> > Send questions and/or concerns to

> > ModOasis-owner

> > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs,

> > can be ordered via

> > 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of

> > contents, go to:

> > http://www.BPDCentral.com

> >

November 19, 2005

It's the mind warping and crazy making shit that comes as part of the BP

package that makes being a KO like escaping from a cult... Actually there

must be considerable parallels just in that aspect. And the FOG that keeps

us (unless we go NC) in bondage to them; we have SO much to be guilty for,

and the way we all treat our poor NADAs and FADAs...

Re: Honoring Ourselves

>

> Gosh Flea, what exactly DO I mean? :-) It's an

> opinion that's sort

> of shaped itself in the back of my mind over many

> years.

>

> In the context of my own experience, in reading,

> watching movies and

> (especially) documentaries, sharing with people

> socially and in

> support groups, what I found is that when people who

> had been abused

> by parents without personality disorders talked

> about what they

> experienced, and especially how they felt, I could

> only relate

> partially. But when cult survivors and torture

> victims talked about

> how THEY felt, I could relate much more. Especially

> when they talked

> about how it impacted their daily lives, both their

> " functioning

> lives " and their " feeling lives " .

>

> The specific sort of " PD parenting trauma aftermath "

> I am talking

> about are the depth of the sense of total

> unworthiness, profound

> shame, i.e. the feeling that we are inherently

> " wrong " somehow, and

> really intense anxiety that can be provoked by

> relatively innocuous

> things that evoke our unresolved traumas. Also, a

> fundamentally-

> impaired ability to take care of ourselves in

> isolation as well as in

> relationships. Usually the non-PD abuse victims

> have the impairment

> mostly in relationships, not so much in isolation.

>

> It's like it's there's a specific " flavour " of PTSD

> that seems common

> to people who've lived through torture, cults, and

> BP parenting, and

> distinct from what you find in people whose early

> lives have been

> touched by abuse but not by a personality disorder.

> (I have found

> there IS tremendous overlap between our " stuff " and

> kids of NPD

> parents, on the other hand, which makes sense.)

>

> Hugs,

>

> --- Flea Bitten <fleabitten_ko@y...> wrote:

> >

> > Hi, ,

> > That is such an interesting statement--can you

> explain what you

> mean a little bit? Thanks, -Flea

> >

> > <sqlwitch@y...> wrote: we have more

> in common with

> cult survivors and

> > torture victims than we do with the typical

> clinical picture of

> > adults who were abused as children.

> >

> > Flea Bitten KO

> > " There but for the grace of God.... "

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites

> in one click.

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> >

>

> Send questions and/or concerns to

> ModOasis-owner

> " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs,

> can be ordered via

> 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of

> contents, go to:

> http://www.BPDCentral.com

>

November 19, 2005

Hi and Everyone,

The sad part is, that for me, my brief EST cult experience. although

brainwashing, was somewhat healing. I found more positive energy and

validation there than in my FOO.

And the truth is, that although this is so, I was still one of the

" emotionally handicapped " ones there. Some higher functioning ones, (deceased

actor Raoul , Ross, and members from higher functioning birth

families) were able to rise diligently thru the " ranks " and also to utilize the

stuff taught to make them succeed in the outer world.

For me, I became a somewhat " enlightened " KO, always at the lower echelon of

functionality within EST. And although I do credit the seminar and especially

the 6 Day (like an Outward Bound Course) with ridding me of what I think may

have been BPD....it was as if a can of worms had been opened for me.

Af the end of the 6 Day Training when we were told to " serve one who served "

I realized that I was the only person in the room who was not totally

brainwashed. But, I realized, thru my dysfunctionality during the ropes course

(rappelling) which disrputed the entire course for a few hours, that I had

much more " stuff " to deal with than the other 109 participants.

There was something very dysfunctional, self-doubting, childlike about me,

although at the time I was 28 years old. The trainer told me that I was " stuck

at age 12 " ....Hmmmm....that must be good news.....If I was stuck at age 12,

then I was not a BPD b/c I would have been stuck at age 3 - 6.....WHEW WHAT A

RELIEF!!!! Whoppee..You just made me realize that I was just totally flea

infested.

It was after I left EST that I was truly open to getting professional help.

And, boy I needed it! I still do, but I find the most healing support I've

ever encountered, here on this Board, everyone here....

Thanks for listening.

Cheers,

Lula

wrote: It's the mind warping and

crazy making shit that comes as part of the BP

package that makes being a KO like escaping from a cult... Actually there

must be considerable parallels just in that aspect. And the FOG that keeps

us (unless we go NC) in bondage to them; we have SO much to be guilty for,

and the way we all treat our poor NADAs and FADAs...

Re: Honoring Ourselves

>

> Gosh Flea, what exactly DO I mean? :-) It's an

> opinion that's sort

> of shaped itself in the back of my mind over many

> years.

>

> In the context of my own experience, in reading,

> watching movies and

> (especially) documentaries, sharing with people

> socially and in

> support groups, what I found is that when people who

> had been abused

> by parents without personality disorders talked

> about what they

> experienced, and especially how they felt, I could

> only relate

> partially. But when cult survivors and torture

> victims talked about

> how THEY felt, I could relate much more. Especially

> when they talked

> about how it impacted their daily lives, both their

> " functioning

> lives " and their " feeling lives " .

>

> The specific sort of " PD parenting trauma aftermath "

> I am talking

> about are the depth of the sense of total

> unworthiness, profound

> shame, i.e. the feeling that we are inherently

> " wrong " somehow, and

> really intense anxiety that can be provoked by

> relatively innocuous

> things that evoke our unresolved traumas. Also, a

> fundamentally-

> impaired ability to take care of ourselves in

> isolation as well as in

> relationships. Usually the non-PD abuse victims

> have the impairment

> mostly in relationships, not so much in isolation.

>

> It's like it's there's a specific " flavour " of PTSD

> that seems common

> to people who've lived through torture, cults, and

> BP parenting, and

> distinct from what you find in people whose early

> lives have been

> touched by abuse but not by a personality disorder.

> (I have found

> there IS tremendous overlap between our " stuff " and

> kids of NPD

> parents, on the other hand, which makes sense.)

>

> Hugs,

>

> --- Flea Bitten <fleabitten_ko@y...> wrote:

> >

> > Hi, ,

> > That is such an interesting statement--can you

> explain what you

> mean a little bit? Thanks, -Flea

> >

> > <sqlwitch@y...> wrote: we have more

> in common with

> cult survivors and

> > torture victims than we do with the typical

> clinical picture of

> > adults who were abused as children.

> >

> > Flea Bitten KO

> > " There but for the grace of God.... "

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites

> in one click.

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> >

>

> Send questions and/or concerns to

> ModOasis-owner

> " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs,

> can be ordered via

> 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of

> contents, go to:

> http://www.BPDCentral.com

>

November 19, 2005

Hi Charlie, Kerrie, , Lula and Everyone,

Thanks so much for posting about this. I had so many

feelings and thoughts about your posts, I took a long

walk and some hours to process them before replying.

Lula, I guess I can feel relieved, too, if someone

thinks I’m “stuck” at ANY age beyond six!

, yes, I learned to dissociate from the " crazy

making” at mind-warp speed to go where, I thought, no

non-BP had gone before, until I met you guys!

Kerrie, yes, people asking “me to embrace the same

torturer as no one in my life has inflicted as much

torture as my mother” has always been a challenge for

me. People understandably don’t want to believe that

there’s such a thing as a nada, except maybe in fairy

tales. Maybe that makes it unbelievable, except, I

believe it, instead of the fairy tale. I’m so lucky.

With family like that, who needs . . .

Many years ago, I read something, as you did, “about

how [some people] do not like the sight of a baby.

“It freaked me out”, too. I agree, the “weird thing

is that we are here- that they actually procreate”.

Why do they procreate? I concluded that they get

social ego strokes, feel that they’re fulfilling

societal expectations, and, perhaps, feel like they’re

fulfilling an instinctual biological function.

Thanks, nada. I Was a Teenage Nada Trophy.

Charlie, when I read your words, “Non-bpd dude, I am

very happy to hear you and believe you”, a few tears

burst out. When I read, “Again and again, over the

course of an entire childhood, my nada used things as

simple and innocuous as French toast as tools of

complete annihilation. She was seeking to 'merge'

with me, or demonize me, or do whatever she needed

with me to assuage her

borderline cravings. It was complete exploitation.

And, yes, it was indeed as serious as you describe”, I

caught my breath and had to get up from the computer

to immediately process that one. Whoa. Yes, “tools

of complete annihilation”. Curiously, doesn’t

“annihilation” sound like “nihilism”? Hmmm . . .

Anyway, I hadn’t thought of it as “exploitation”.

Thanks, yes, absolutely. Exploited for nada’s

benefit. . . . You mentioned “the mind games she

played to the effect of it was not REALLY happening.

You are not being attacked! I am loving!” Yes, as

much or more energy spent to deny and cover up the

inappropriate behavior as was spent to do the

inappropriate behavior in the first place.

Finally, Charlie, you wrote “that it seems you are

still having trouble being heard”. That’s true.

However, that’s not because I don’t have someone

listening to me. I believe it’s a measure of how much

energy, charge and material is still in me from what I

endured at nada’s hands. For me, every day is an

effort to balance living with an attitude of gratitude

in the moment and feeling angry because something now

reminds me of something past and unpleasant.

I’ve also had the feeling for years, mentioned by some

people here, of wanting to “out” my nada to the World

Court of Non-BP Justice. There, in my pleasant

fantasy, I eloquently present the charges against nada

and FOO, explain their crimes in deliciously cathartic

detail (complete with flashback videos) and enjoy the

World Jury’s unanimous conviction, sentencing and

life-long confinement (complete with hard nada-labor

to make up for what they did, and apologies and amends

to me) of all nadas/fadas and their ilk. Then, all

non-BP’s meet at worldwide festivities and Non-BP Aid

Concerts (internet, cellphone, TV and radio-linked, of

course) celebrating the First Annual Nada-Free World,

where we all live happily ever after in the cleaned-up

land of . . . Oz.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- Kerrie wrote:

> Wow Non-BP! That's some really powerful stuff! I

> have often said to

> people who use to question why or how I wouldn't

> talk to my nada or

> be close to her, 'Well if Hitler were alive, would

> you ask a Jewish

> person to befriend him? Then why ask me to embrace

> the same torturer

> as no one in my life has inflicted as much torture

> as my mother.'

> That puts things in perspective but people still

> don't like to see a

> mother capable of being so abjectly abusive.

>

> I haven't read any of Jean- Sartre's works

> though I've read about

> him in school. I did find a similar irony lately in

> that when I was

> in my early 20s and severely depressed and coming

> off many bp

> behaviors of my own from hs, I was really into

> Herman Hesse and some

> of his work. I found the book 'Steppen Wolf " to be

> particularly

> appealing and reflective of my thought patterns. Now

> as I just

> finished one book by Alice on Prisoner's of

> childhood, it

> becomes aparent that Herman Hesse's parents were

> also NPDs like my

> nada and so it comes out in his work and I related

> greatly to it.

>

> I think your torture points are important. I like

> what you wrote

> about being an object vs person. This is something I

> have struggled

> w/for quite sometime- the dignity of human beings by

> the very fact

> they are alive. This is something I ponder in light

> of the sexual

> revolution as well- what seems to be liberating only

> enslaves to

> greater degrees as I see in the playout of my Gen-X

> and subsequent

> generations w/the connection of human sexuality

> w/love and dignity

> and not mere objectification of others. I also

> ponder these things

> in light of Columbine and school shootings. Why

> would kids not

> objectify if they are objectified? Do they really

> grasp the gravity

> of their actions when all they've been shown is that

> they are toys

> (hence I again go back to human sexuality and the

> whole notion of

> having a boy and girl being the ideal family in

> today's world- as

> though the desires of the individual parents

> outweigh the rights of

> the child to be born of whatever gender they were

> endowed w/at

> conception- hence I have two boys and welcome

> whatever else gendered

> child we would have in some future date- but I've

> lately been seeing

> this 'ideal' family as rather objectifying as well)

> in their parent's

> lives and not all parents but a good many. I find it

> terribly sad

> when I've seen certain people tell their only child

> daughter or son

> to make the decision to have mommy go back to work

> to afford the

> things they have and have a younger sibling or to

> have mommy at home

> and be an only child. As if those these things are

> questions to be

> posed to children. As though objects and materialism

> is greater than

> human relations (and sometimes in the BP world I

> definitely

> understand the transference of emotions to things vs

> the very

> betraying legacy of the FOO). This is something I

> was just pondering

> yesterday as I do know several only kids whose

> parents posed these

> questions at a young age. As though the option of

> doing w/less

> material pleasures (not necessities by a long shot)

> would be an

> option? But then again I've seen this in NPD

> families- only children

> getting the parents illness in addition to the rest

> of their

> inheritance.

>

> I digress though. It seems to me to make sense that

> people WOULD be

> objectified in the BP world if the original origins

> of this disease

> can be traced back to a family history of sexual

> abuse at one time or

> another- the shame bond. If a woman is used sexually

> as an object,

> she then will learn to transfer that hatred of self

> onto her

> offspring and thereby create a legacy of

> objectification of human

> beings. Chances are great there are also other

> factors playing into

> this such as where were the parents to protect the

> child and was the

> mother of said little girl also abused sexually in

> childhood thereby

> leading her to a new sense of normal- turning a

> blind eye to the

> obvious? I've seen it time and time again. My

> sister-in-law, the

> psychiatrist put it best. It takes seven generations

> to create a

> psychopath (Saddam Hussien is a good example. He was

> not a

> psychopath. He was an NPD. His sons, however, were

> psychotic and not

> many cried when they were killed though it tends to

> be that the

> neurotics make for more charismatic leaders in the

> persuasion fields

> vs psychos- thinking also of Hitler and Napolean).

> She also says 'It

> only takes one generation, however, to turn it

> around.' I've seen

> that as well time and time again. Two of the closest

> families I've

> had over the years have mother's whose parents had

> great

> psychological problems- alcoholism, molestation,

> BPD, you name it.

> But the moms changed the family tree. No idea how or

> why- mainly

> moving far away - that is a definite constant

> variable. Those who

> stay around seem to get sick too. These are women

> from a generation

> where therapy was not common and so even stronger in

> my book in many

> ways w/breaking the cycles of abuse.

>

> I like the brainwashing stuff..the stuff you

> posted.It is interesting

> w/cults and such. When I was in high school I was a

> gang member- a

> punk rock gang mind you, but a gang none-the-less. I

> suppose that was

> not accidental after being raised by the FOO. I'm

> not sure how I held

> my own around those people, but I did for the most

> part and then I

> drifted away when I moved out of my parents house. I

> didn't need the

> gang anymore. I had myself and hope. I will say,

> however, movies

> like the Godfather and such always appealled to me

> in my younger

> years and it makes sense- the

> mobster/gang/brainwashing mentality.

> ny Cash actually wrote a song about some of my

> ancestors as they

> are the same ancestors of his wife, June

> (can't wait to see

> the new movie out) w/a line " I killed a man just to

> watch him die. "

> and that was the gang- a million time worse

> than the McCoys on

> my dad's dad's side. The 's are the ones my

> grandnada came from

> and they were pretty evil and warped and had the

> mob/gangsta

> mentality. Not suprising I fell into a gang or that

> I have two

> cousins that were in similar boats(actually one was

> more like a

> sorrority in college where she was hazed. After

> growing up w/a nada,

> hazing is a synch according to her).

>

> Right now I feel like I'm also up against something

> in my current

> circumstance (don't feel comfortable naming it as

> its really well

> bashed in today's culture) that sometimes feels

> cultish and I've been

> given definite red flags lately to keep my distance

> and keep my

> center. I don't think they are inherintantly evil,

> but I sense a lot

> of BPD and NPD characteristics that make me cringe.

> But brainwashing

> is subtle in these things- a simple glace, an

> unspoken word, being

> amidst them all and noticing everyone but me is

> using a knife to cut

> a freaking banana and all kinds of unspoken rules

> that are meant to

> coerce as well as establish dominance. I'm very

> grateful to again be

> in therapy and figuring all these things out. So

> many people come

> from dysfunction and so are prey to the acceptance

> rope thrown out by

> seemingly well meaning groups. In other instances I

> say 'tis better

> to be disliked by certain people, even hated if you

> will. I certainly

> do NOT want the approval of people I don't

> particularly like or

> approve of either.' That has been a long time

> coming- to get to this

> point in my life where I'm not a people pleaser and

> take steps back

> and go at my own pace. I do think, however, even

> some of the most

> normal people can become victims of torture. I also

> believe there are

> certain people that are much, much, much higher on

> the scales of

> moral ethics and by their nature could not and would

> not submit as

> they would die first- MLK and Ghandi to name a few.

>

> Anyway, I just wanted to say your post really got me

> thinking. Thank

> you for your deep insights and sharing them. I think

> you are right on

> the money. I loved all that you had to say as well

> as quotes you

> brought in from elsewhere. I'm also glad you realize

> your nada's

> abuse of you went beyond scales of gender but rather

> a matter of

> cutting down the weaker, the child. By the way, I

> have been to some

> of the BP boards- those in recovery- and I

> definitely don't see

> myself as one. the thing I found very interesting is

> one thread I

> read a long, long time ago about how many BPs do not

> like the sight

> of a baby. They were very honest but they used terms

> like 'freaky

> little creatures' and 'looking like aliens' and not

> understanding how

> everyone would think they are so cute. It freaked me

> out but now I

> understand it from the fact they were probably

> tortured in their

> childhood and have a natural aversion that is

> programed in them to

> hate the weak- even on physical appearances. The

> weird thing is that

> we are here- that they actually procreate, KWIM?

> Anyway, I just

> thought of that too.

>

> Best wishes and thanks again.

> Kerrie

> we have

> more

> > > in common with

> > > cult survivors and

> > > > torture victims than we do with the typical

> > > clinical picture of

> > > > adults who were abused as children.

> > > >

> > > > Flea Bitten KO

> > > > " There but for the grace of God.... "

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel

> sites

> > > in one click.

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > removed]

> > > >

> > >

> > > Send questions and/or concerns to

> > > ModOasis-owner

> > > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for

> non-BPs,

> > > can be ordered via

> > > 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table

> of

> > > contents, go to:

> > > http://www.BPDCentral.com

> > >

November 21, 2005

You know, Lula, what you say about the EST experience, despite its

screw-up-ness, actually helping you in some ways makes sense to me in

terms of my history.

When I first physically escapted from my FOO, most of the people I

connected with were only slightly less messed-up than I was. I

absolutely could not relate to really mentally healthy people. It

was like we were totally off each others' radar, and didn't

really " see " each other. (With a VERY small number of notable

exceptions of sort of super-healthy people who could tolerate

my " sickness " . Maybe 2-3 of these in that whole 10-15 year period of

my life.) The slightly-less-sick people I hung out with helped me

more than than the healthy people to whom I was somehow invisible (or

they were either invisible or unappealing to me!).

As I got healthier, the people I found myself associating with

gradually got healthier and healthier, and I found myself either

gradually losing touch with the more screwed-up old friends, or

something would happen to cause a rupture between us. So, it was

like I was climbing a ladder of increasing emotional health, and

wherever I was at any given time, most of the people I was connected

to, and therefore could " grow " in relationships with, were at more or

less the same level as I was, and the ones I learned the most from at

any given time were just a little " ahead " of me.

And that kind of makes sense. My FOO was so crazy, and all my

learned behaviours were so dysfunctional, that emotionally healthy

people were like a completely difference species, who communicated in

ways I was totally unable to grasp at the time. So maybe the EST

people were, at the time you were involved with them, one step ahead

of your FOO on the screwed-up-ness scale! :-)

Hugs,

--- planetlula <planetlula@y...> wrote:

>

> Hi and Everyone,

>

> The sad part is, that for me, my brief EST cult experience.

although brainwashing, was somewhat healing. I found more positive

energy and validation there than in my FOO.

>

> And the truth is, that although this is so, I was still one of

the " emotionally handicapped " ones there. Some higher functioning

ones, (deceased actor Raoul , Ross, and members from

higher functioning birth families) were able to rise diligently thru

the " ranks " and also to utilize the stuff taught to make them

succeed in the outer world.

>

> For me, I became a somewhat " enlightened " KO, always at the lower

echelon of functionality within EST. And although I do credit the

seminar and especially the 6 Day (like an Outward Bound Course) with

ridding me of what I think may have been BPD....it was as if a can

of worms had been opened for me.

>

> Af the end of the 6 Day Training when we were told to " serve one

who served " I realized that I was the only person in the room who

was not totally brainwashed. But, I realized, thru my

dysfunctionality during the ropes course (rappelling) which

disrputed the entire course for a few hours, that I had much

more " stuff " to deal with than the other 109 participants.

>

> There was something very dysfunctional, self-doubting, childlike

about me, although at the time I was 28 years old. The trainer told

me that I was " stuck at age 12 " ....Hmmmm....that must be good

news.....If I was stuck at age 12, then I was not a BPD b/c I would

have been stuck at age 3 - 6.....WHEW WHAT A RELIEF!!!! Whoppee..You

just made me realize that I was just totally flea infested.

>

> It was after I left EST that I was truly open to getting

professional help. And, boy I needed it! I still do, but I find

the most healing support I've ever encountered, here on this Board,

everyone here....

>

> Thanks for listening.

>

> Cheers,

> Lula

>

> <scott_1971_h@y...> wrote: It's the mind warping and

crazy making shit that comes as part of the BP

> package that makes being a KO like escaping from a cult...

Actually there

> must be considerable parallels just in that aspect. And the FOG

that keeps

> us (unless we go NC) in bondage to them; we have SO much to be

guilty for,

> and the way we all treat our poor NADAs and FADAs...

>

> Re: Honoring Ourselves

> >

> > Gosh Flea, what exactly DO I mean? :-) It's an

> > opinion that's sort

> > of shaped itself in the back of my mind over many

> > years.

> >

> > In the context of my own experience, in reading,

> > watching movies and

> > (especially) documentaries, sharing with people

> > socially and in

> > support groups, what I found is that when people who

> > had been abused

> > by parents without personality disorders talked

> > about what they

> > experienced, and especially how they felt, I could

> > only relate

> > partially. But when cult survivors and torture

> > victims talked about

> > how THEY felt, I could relate much more. Especially

> > when they talked

> > about how it impacted their daily lives, both their

> > " functioning

> > lives " and their " feeling lives " .

> >

> > The specific sort of " PD parenting trauma aftermath "

> > I am talking

> > about are the depth of the sense of total

> > unworthiness, profound

> > shame, i.e. the feeling that we are inherently

> > " wrong " somehow, and

> > really intense anxiety that can be provoked by

> > relatively innocuous

> > things that evoke our unresolved traumas. Also, a

> > fundamentally-

> > impaired ability to take care of ourselves in

> > isolation as well as in

> > relationships. Usually the non-PD abuse victims

> > have the impairment

> > mostly in relationships, not so much in isolation.

> >

> > It's like it's there's a specific " flavour " of PTSD

> > that seems common

> > to people who've lived through torture, cults, and

> > BP parenting, and

> > distinct from what you find in people whose early

> > lives have been

> > touched by abuse but not by a personality disorder.

> > (I have found

> > there IS tremendous overlap between our " stuff " and

> > kids of NPD

> > parents, on the other hand, which makes sense.)

> >

> > Hugs,

> >

> > --- Flea Bitten <fleabitten_ko@y...> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi, ,

> > > That is such an interesting statement--can you

> > explain what you

> > mean a little bit? Thanks, -Flea

> > >

> > > <sqlwitch@y...> wrote: we have more

> > in common with

> > cult survivors and

> > > torture victims than we do with the typical

> > clinical picture of

> > > adults who were abused as children.

> > >

> > > Flea Bitten KO

> > > " There but for the grace of God.... "

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites

> > in one click.

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> > >

> >

> > Send questions and/or concerns to

> > ModOasis-owner

> > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs,

> > can be ordered via

> > 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of

> > contents, go to:

> > http://www.BPDCentral.com

> >

November 21, 2005

Hi ,

I think that's all true. My EST friends and acquaintances...some of them

were very successful in the outer world. (network news anchor, entrepreneurs,

fashion photographer, highly successful business folks).

But....yes, the ones I got particularly close to, do appear to have had some

serious issues (excess baggage) to deal with. They became my pseudo-family.

One of them, a man 12 years older than I, became my pseudo-older

brother/father. His parents became my pseudo-family. I would even spend

Thanksgiving with them. (Significant b/c Thanksgiving Day is my nada's

b/day.). I basked in being re-parented by them all.

My new " brother " became my roommate. He was a blessing and my " protector. "

He also was there for me when I ended a really messed-up relationship with a

low-functioning " jerk " I met at EST.

We both got married to other people, of course, (his 3rd and final marriage)

at relatively the same time. His mother was so happy that " we both 'finally'

settled down. " He is now a child psychiatrist with a wonderful wife and

family.

Although he will always be dear to me, I've lost contact with him, simply b/c

during the last phone conversation, he would not stop telling me to have

children. He said " You've GOT to have kids....You don't know what you're

missing. " He meant really well, but he would not stop.

So, that was the end of my EST friendships.

Now, I find that I have one normal female friend, and mostly my " friends " and

of course, my sorella scelta (you), exist online.

Where I live, there are not many artists like me. And I don't want (or need)

to go back into the business world, which I would dislike even if the events of

last year with nada boss had not transpired. It's just never been " me. "

Sorry to diverge...but you are absolutely right. I'm more attracted to

forming friendships with more normal folks now. When I see someone I think

reminds me of my past, I tend to stay away.

I guess seeing your former self in other folks, is a form of projection, but

to me, it's also a measurement of my recovery so far.

Thanks for listening.

Hugs,

Lula

Thinking back at my earlier recovery days (gee there are still so many more

ahead).

wrote: You know, Lula, what you say about the

EST experience, despite its