Re: Struggle for Sanity

October 29, 2005

Hi Jan, I wanted to respond to your observations and share some of

my E,S, & H too. You might read some of my archival posts too,

since I have touched on this topic before. I find this to be really

interesting, and a very important subject for myself. So, thank you

for bringing it up.

First of all, I too am a recovering alcoholic with long term

recovery. As a result I am also a recovering ACOA (adult child of

an alcoholic), and thus a recovering Co-dependent or Al-anon, and

now I have also found myself here in this group, the last place I

ever thought I'd be, so the journey continues, and for that I am

getting grateful (it takes time), but somedays the psychic pain

outways the gratitude I must say in all honesty, but I know from my

own previous experience that this will change down the road. I

believe it's a natural stage of grief (going in & out of denial,

anger prior to acceptance).

For me, I believe that I genetically inherited my allergy to

alcoholic (and love of drinking) which nearly killed me and

destroyed my life, from my father's side. I got sober at 26, and it

was the pain, suffering, and humiliation, the beating I recieved

from alcohol combined with the grace of God, which saved my life. I

thank God every day for the 12 step program which was instrumental

in saving my life (I am first in my family sober) and without which

I surely would not be here today (AA). As a result of living my way

into a new way of thinking (it's an action program), I have become a

different person, actually I have found and continue to discover

myself, my true self was denied and lost to the world, covered up by

my disease, by chemicals, and before that the pain of living and

growing up in a dysfuntional family system that taught me it wasn't

OK to think for myself or to feel. I continue to peel off the

layers and learn more and more truth on a daily basis.

So, I just wanted to share a little bit of background

information with you, about where I am coming from.

You wrote:

<<a BPD diagnosis, the illness and character defect is not really so

different from that of the alcoholic personality. Both (without a

willing and conscious effort to be honest i.e. a program) tend to be

victims in their thinking. Denial is what keeps them from admitting

they have a problem. Both types are great at seeing everyone else

around them as the problem. Both can be wonderful people to the

outside world and do a great job of convincing others that it is

they who are being victimized when in reality, they are the

victimizers.>>>>>

This is an excellent observation. Have you had an opportunity to

read the Big Book? It is the basic text of A.A. It was written in

1939 and at that time alcoholism was considered to be a hopeless

condition (and a male condition, as well). The text of the Big

Book referes to the alcoholic as male, due to the time period it was

written in (thank goodness this has all changed), and today there

are a lot of female recovering alcoholics.

Anyway, I have notice in my readings and experience that both NPD

and BPD seem to be very similar (or the same as) the untreated

alcoholic personality (sober). Much of the book deals with the

problem of the personality of alcoholic without alcohol, of course.

This is from Step 3,

" selfishness, self-centeredness! This we think is the root of our

troubles. Driven by 100 forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking,

and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they

retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation,

but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made

decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be

hurt.

So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making.

They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example

of self-will run riot, though he usually doesnt' think so. "

Besides myself, I have seen hundreds of miraculous recoveries take

place as a result of this program.

Lately my own mother's behavior seems to have become to out there,

so like that of a practicing alcoholic or addict (lying,

manipulating, paranoid), that I have wondered if she is drinking a

lot. But I don't think she is an alcoholic.

My dh, also in the program, is always talking about the disease

process, it being progressive, and this is how he sees it. For some

reason, I could hear this coming from you better.

Thanks for listening. Don't know if I am making much sense actually.

>

October 29, 2005

Jan,

I can understand most of the dilemas you are dealing with. Yes some people who

are rather blind do consider those of us who chose no contact to be challenging

society, howver in my case, once people find out about what my nada has done,

they begin to realize that I can't live my life dealing with her that way. That

I have to do somethign or I'll lose my mind and unfortunately that something is

let her go and deal with my own problems. There are others who are smart around

me and shut their mouths because they know better than to lecture cause one

tried the " but she's mentally ill " my response is that does not give her the

right to berate me and hurt me as a person, 'just because she is sick " she

choses to stay ill that is her choice.

Many of the people who have seen what my nada has done and what effect it has on

me they usually agree that this is the only option for me is to go nada free.

THey see what happens to me when I have to deal with the chronic phone calls,

the constant whines about illness and her stealing away who I am as well as

gives horrible advice and meddleing in my relationships. That's one reason to

go nc for me so I can get married and have healthy relationships without a

problem. If I do and she knows about it and knows enough information she'll get

on her letter writing campaign. Depending on how obviouly out of line nadas are

the rest of society will catch on. NOwdays if someone asks me about my nada, my

response is I will have nothign to do with her because I'm tired of her

destroying my life and eveyrone else's. Mine did do quite a number. She pushed

her family away the same way she pushed my dad's side away, with extremely

hateful letters. Mind you she complained about her family,

I have only found one rather messed up family member, I haven't talked with one

of her sisters, but the second oldest I've e-mailed and talked to and she seems

fairly normal. Usually one I remind someone of those things, they leave the

subject alone. Face it having a wrecking ball around that destroys family isn't

a good thing. The ohter thing espeically right now that I comment is that I

have enough to deal with on my own I don't need the extra aggrivation. Usually

that is understood. That is how I handle the people who are " but she's your

mother " or " she's mentally ill get her help " . Alhtough they dont' understand a

lot of times until she makes that decision to get help ther's nothing I can do

for her, even if she wanted me to.

Keep your chin up and make the best decisions for yourself, don't let others

judge you as one of my coworkers says " nobody has walked in your shoes so they

can't know how you feel " . If they notice you doign better without nada dynamics

they will probably start to realize it. Just remeber you are not your nada's

personal beating post.

Hope this helps

Marie

Jan Bowers wrote:

Hi all!

My husband is a long term recovering alcoholic and through his AA program I am

learning that even though we are labeling our mothers with a BPD diagnosis, the

illness and character defect is not really so different from that of the

alcoholic personality. Both (without a willing and conscious effort to be honest

i.e. a program) tend to be victims in their thinking. Denial is what keeps them

from admitting they have a problem. Both types are great at seeing everyone else

around them as the problem. Both can be wonderful people to the outside world

and do a great job of convincing others that it is they who are being victimized

when in reality, they are the victimizers.

I feel much of the same insanity over dealing with my mother as I felt over

dealing with my husband when he was actively drinking. I finally came to a

point that as long as he chose to drink there was no hope for us to have a

healthy relationship. Much of the same damage was done between myself and his

family because they listened to his " distortion campaigns "

When he finally saw the light, (although it took a night in jail, and the threat

of losing his job) he let go of his denial, got into a recovery program and has

been a sane and wonderful man ever since. He has said many times, " Your mom

sure does sound like an alcoholic. " So, because he drank, his label was

alcoholic. Because dear mom isn't an alcoholic, her label is Borderline PD.

What are we saying here? At any rate recovery groups in general seem to be what

our mothers need. (so do we but we know it!) Like my husband, until the

consequences of his own behavior becomes so painful, he would not seek help.

Actually the job and law forced it upon him, but it was his choice to hear,

learn and grow. That is what we all need to keep in mind when dealing with our

mothers. We all know that enabling an alcoholic only keeps the sickness going.

So for all of us NC's we are no longer enabling and that could be a step in

promoting our mothers' recovery. Their choice.

We are taught by our mothers, religion and society to honor our mother and

father. We are taught that family is the greatest value and that blood is

thicker than water. So, we are challenging family, social, and religious values

when we choose NC. It is no wonder that we struggle with our decision and

receive much judgment and little support.

We have to keep remembering: We received much judgment and little support even

when we played by society's and the churches rules. We were bad anyway. So

what's the difference? Well... now we are out of insanity and free to build a

whole world of good supportive people and make our own families.

No one would judge us for leaving the alcoholic because that's acceptable. We

also wouldn't judge ourselves because we know that practicing alcoholics are

sick and it is our right to choose not to live in abusive and sick

relationships. We would have no guilt for protecting our children, in fact we

would feel proud of our decision to seek a better life.

Jan

October 29, 2005

Dear and Jan,

Thanks for these helpful insights. Something else I've noticed is

that battering/abusive spouses (male or female) tend also to fit

well into the BPD persona. Could it be something about exploitation

of those perceived as 'weaker'? Maybe there is a bottom line where

many personality disorders are the same, or maybe there are just a

loooot more BPDs out there than we think. I will say that greater

insight into my nada's thinking has also helped with my

understanding of all others who abuse and exploit--criminals,

political leaders ... ex-boyfriends ...

Charlie

> <<a BPD diagnosis, the illness and character defect is not really

so

> different from that of the alcoholic personality. Both (without a

> willing and conscious effort to be honest i.e. a program) tend to

be

> victims in their thinking. Denial is what keeps them from

admitting

> they have a problem. Both types are great at seeing everyone else

> around them as the problem. Both can be wonderful people to the

> outside world and do a great job of convincing others that it is

> they who are being victimized when in reality, they are the

> victimizers.>>>>>

>

> This is an excellent observation. Have you had an opportunity to

> read the Big Book? It is the basic text of A.A. It was written

in

> 1939 and at that time alcoholism was considered to be a hopeless

> condition (and a male condition, as well). The text of the Big

> Book referes to the alcoholic as male, due to the time period it

was

> written in (thank goodness this has all changed), and today there

> are a lot of female recovering alcoholics.

> Anyway, I have notice in my readings and experience that both NPD

> and BPD seem to be very similar (or the same as) the untreated

> alcoholic personality (sober). Much of the book deals with the

> problem of the personality of alcoholic without alcohol, of

course.

> This is from Step 3,

> " selfishness, self-centeredness! This we think is the root of

our

> troubles. Driven by 100 forms of fear, self-delusion, self-

seeking,

> and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they

> retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation,

> but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made

> decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be

> hurt.

> So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making.

> They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme

example

> of self-will run riot, though he usually doesnt' think so. "

> Besides myself, I have seen hundreds of miraculous recoveries

take

> place as a result of this program.

> Lately my own mother's behavior seems to have become to out there,

> so like that of a practicing alcoholic or addict (lying,

> manipulating, paranoid), that I have wondered if she is drinking a

> lot. But I don't think she is an alcoholic.

> My dh, also in the program, is always talking about the

disease

> process, it being progressive, and this is how he sees it. For

some

> reason, I could hear this coming from you better.

>

> Thanks for listening. Don't know if I am making much sense

actually.

>

> >

October 29, 2005

---

Many BP's and other personality disorderd people are alcoholic, so

they could very well be both.

Mike

In ModOasis , " " <kthielen@k...> wrote:

>

> Hi Jan, I wanted to respond to your observations and share some of

> my E,S, & H too. You might read some of my archival posts too,

> since I have touched on this topic before. I find this to be really

> interesting, and a very important subject for myself. So, thank you

> for bringing it up.

>

> First of all, I too am a recovering alcoholic with long term

> recovery. As a result I am also a recovering ACOA (adult child of

> an alcoholic), and thus a recovering Co-dependent or Al-anon, and

> now I have also found myself here in this group, the last place I

> ever thought I'd be, so the journey continues, and for that I am

> getting grateful (it takes time), but somedays the psychic pain

> outways the gratitude I must say in all honesty, but I know from my

> own previous experience that this will change down the road. I

> believe it's a natural stage of grief (going in & out of denial,

> anger prior to acceptance).

> For me, I believe that I genetically inherited my allergy to

> alcoholic (and love of drinking) which nearly killed me and

> destroyed my life, from my father's side. I got sober at 26, and it

> was the pain, suffering, and humiliation, the beating I recieved

> from alcohol combined with the grace of God, which saved my life. I

> thank God every day for the 12 step program which was instrumental

> in saving my life (I am first in my family sober) and without which

> I surely would not be here today (AA). As a result of living my way

> into a new way of thinking (it's an action program), I have become a

> different person, actually I have found and continue to discover

> myself, my true self was denied and lost to the world, covered up by

> my disease, by chemicals, and before that the pain of living and

> growing up in a dysfuntional family system that taught me it wasn't

> OK to think for myself or to feel. I continue to peel off the

> layers and learn more and more truth on a daily basis.

> So, I just wanted to share a little bit of background

> information with you, about where I am coming from.

>

> You wrote:

> <<a BPD diagnosis, the illness and character defect is not really so

> different from that of the alcoholic personality. Both (without a

> willing and conscious effort to be honest i.e. a program) tend to be

> victims in their thinking. Denial is what keeps them from admitting

> they have a problem. Both types are great at seeing everyone else

> around them as the problem. Both can be wonderful people to the

> outside world and do a great job of convincing others that it is

> they who are being victimized when in reality, they are the

> victimizers.>>>>>

>

> This is an excellent observation. Have you had an opportunity to

> read the Big Book? It is the basic text of A.A. It was written in

> 1939 and at that time alcoholism was considered to be a hopeless

> condition (and a male condition, as well). The text of the Big

> Book referes to the alcoholic as male, due to the time period it was

> written in (thank goodness this has all changed), and today there

> are a lot of female recovering alcoholics.

> Anyway, I have notice in my readings and experience that both NPD

> and BPD seem to be very similar (or the same as) the untreated

> alcoholic personality (sober). Much of the book deals with the

> problem of the personality of alcoholic without alcohol, of course.

> This is from Step 3,

> " selfishness, self-centeredness! This we think is the root of our

> troubles. Driven by 100 forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking,

> and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they

> retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation,

> but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made

> decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be

> hurt.

> So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making.

> They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example

> of self-will run riot, though he usually doesnt' think so. "

> Besides myself, I have seen hundreds of miraculous recoveries take

> place as a result of this program.

> Lately my own mother's behavior seems to have become to out there,

> so like that of a practicing alcoholic or addict (lying,

> manipulating, paranoid), that I have wondered if she is drinking a

> lot. But I don't think she is an alcoholic.

> My dh, also in the program, is always talking about the disease

> process, it being progressive, and this is how he sees it. For some

> reason, I could hear this coming from you better.

>

> Thanks for listening. Don't know if I am making much sense actually.

>

> >

October 29, 2005

Jan,

Thanks for making an important point about similarities between BPDs and

alcoholics, and that society condones taking certain actions about one while

sanctioning taking the same actions about the other.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

Jan Bowers wrote:Hi all!