Re: Intentional Cruelty - BPD or something else & all bad children

[Guest guest]

Although BPDs are ruled by their disorder, they all have individual

personalitities. My nada had one of the best sense of humors I have

ever seen in a person, and that is one good thing I got from her and

can remember of her in a good way. She loved to laugh.

My sister Lynn however has a meaness about her unlike few have ever

seen.

It is not a BPD thing, it is Lynn. The 2 words I have always heard

describe Lynny was MEAN OR CRAZY. Seriously, everyone has always

said this about her. My nada could be cruel sometimes but it was not

an internal cruel it was a BPD cruel. My sister I believe has

the cruelty of Lynn, just in a more waifish way. I truely believe my

2 sister could rip your heart out and kick you down the steps like

the ancient Aztecs and not think twice. My sister Janet sees the

same things in them as I do. She has even said as bad as our nada

could be she was never like and Lynn. My nada was the " queen "

so she had the ability to be, but it was not her nature without the

BPD. It is the nature of and Lynn. I think the diffent level

we see in borderlines are from 3 thing not 2. Enviroment, temperment

and true nature. The temperment leaves them prone to develope the

borderline disorder however I believe it is their true nature that

we get a glimps of every now and then that makes some of us say to

ourselves, " what a wonderful person this would have been, and how

much I would have loved it if the real person beneath it all would

have been my mother versus the the one driven by the disorder " .

Yes, borderlines have their own personalities too!

I recently read a post about " all bad child " often develope BPD.

I think there is a higher rate of that. However, the " bad children "

out there would have to have the temperment for it not just the

enviroment. What saved you from becoming one of them was God.

God just didn't make you that way. He gave you a diffent temperment

and that saved you.

>

> Hi All,

>

> I've been thinking about this recently, and since it's come up in

a

> recent thread I wanted to open it up for discussion. Many of us

have

> experienced cruel behavior at the hands of our nadas. Judging from

> what I've read here, lots of us (including myself) believe this

> cruelty is intentional and deliberate. At first I thought this was

> just part of the whole BPD package. But then I wondered - do waif

or

> hermit nadas have this same cruel streak? Is it part of BPD, or is

it

> part of the queen and/or witch profile?

>

> My nada was mostly queen/witch, but when she sensed that she

couldn't

> win a confrontation any other way she'd turn absolute waif, and

that

> mean streak disappeared as fast as she did (she'd literally run

away).

> As soon as she felt it was safe to return, the queen/witch would

be

> back again in full color.

>

> Then I began to wonder if maybe her cruelty was something separate

> from BPD. I don't remember reading much in UBM about deliberate

> cruelty, aside from the " extreme " cases. I started to think maybe

it

> fell more under a sociopathic tendency... especially since I have

two

> other family members who have these same tendencies, but without

all

> the other characteristics of BPD.

>

> I'm curious as to what your experiences are. Does your nada have a

> deliberate mean streak, and what profile does she fall under

> (waif/hermit/queen/witch)? Do you have other FOO members who don't

> have BPD but maybe have this same mean streak?

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is a very interesting topic... intentional cruelty, is it

temperament or the disease? I think it can be either or both. If you

asked my nada what she wanted for me, of course she would say " only

the best. " And in her conscious mind, I'm sure she does feel that way

(of course, I have to remind myself of that over and over and over).

However, nada is so much nicer to me when I am down. Here's a recent

example - this happened about a month ago, before I had heard of the

illness and learned so much (I'm on my third book already, I'm so into

the research right now). So anyways, here's what happened.

I was out to dinner with my parents. I brought up something my brother

had done that annoyed me. Two weeks before this, nada was fine

discussing this same subject. But for whatever reason, on this

particular evening, she was on the warpath. She took my comment as a

personal attack on her son, and totally raged out. Telling me I

twisted words, telling my father his son (my other brother) was an

a-hole, gaslighting me and insisting that my memory was faulty because

I'm " too emotional " (ironic because she was the one screaming), and

she ALWAYS remembers things right...lalalalala, wouldn't stop. I

calmly said i was sorry if I had hupset her. She still wouldn't stop.

I said hey - I said I'm sorry, what do you want me to do? She still

wouldn't stop. It turned into a whole " I can't believe you ambushed me

when all i wanted was a nice dinner out, do you have any idea how hard

my life is, blah blah blah. " This is finally what got me. I burst into

tears and cried " Mom. I know your life sucks. I'm so sorry I made it

worse tonight. " Then - BINGO - she stops.

I spoke to my father the next day. He was having one of his more lucid

and insightful moments. And here's what he said to me, that totally

knocked the wind out of me: " Holly, I want to tell you that it kills

me when I see you apologize to your mother like that. Sometimes you

may do something wrong - we all do - and then it's right to apologize.

But when you've done absolutely nothing, I hate to see you begging her

forgiveness. When your mother gets like that, and she sees you

faltering, she smells blood. She'll go for the jugular. And she will

not stop until she sees you in tears. Don't let her do it to you. "

Well, you could have just about knocked me over with a feather. This

was the first time my father had said anything like this to me. And

now, a few weeks later, I'm reading all this literature, and

everything is falling into place. My nada lost the ability to cry many

years ago. Her rage froze her over. And my dad was right - she does

only stop lascerating me when I finally break down and cry. And I

figured it out. My tears calm her. It's classic projection: " Feel the

grief I can't feel, I can't do it, you do it for me. Ah, that's

better, thanks. "

So now back to the original question, disease or temperament? In my

nada's case, I would say both. She always had a short fuse, long

before she got this bad. She is not completely heartless, but she is a

woman with BPD who also has a tiny bit of a mean streak. The BPD

*magnifies* this mean streak a hundred million times. If she didn't

have the disease, she might just be what people call " snarky. "

Me, on the other hand, I have so many fleas that I have spent the last

few days wondering if I myself have BPD. I believe I probably have

the capacity for it. (Much more so when younger, not so much now but

still some landmines to beware of.) But what I don't have is a mean

streak. I can be as cynical and sarcastic as the next guy, but when I

get " snarky " I am usually laughing my head off and making everyone

else laugh too. When I say something that I think really hurt

somebody, I feel *horrible*. When I feel a situation is going to bring

out my worst fleas (like, say, marriage and/or motherhood) i avoid it

completely. Now I'm not saying this is healthy - for sure it is

something I need to work on, and hard. But my point is, I JUST DON'T

WANT ANYBODY TO GET HURT. I'm not saying this to get brownie points or

anything - just reiterating what someone else on this board said: does

the no-good kid of the queen/witch have a greater chance of getting

BPD? Yes. What keeps them from getting the fullblown illness? God just

made them different. I'm flea-infested for sure, but working on it

more and more every day (even before I had heard of the illness and

knew they were called fleas, I was working on it). So yeah, I'm afraid

of turning into my mom sometimes. But I am saved by having a

different kind of character than she does.

Just some thoughts...

Holly G.

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > I've been thinking about this recently, and since it's come up in

> a

> > recent thread I wanted to open it up for discussion. Many of us

> have

> > experienced cruel behavior at the hands of our nadas. Judging from

> > what I've read here, lots of us (including myself) believe this

> > cruelty is intentional and deliberate. At first I thought this was

> > just part of the whole BPD package. But then I wondered - do waif

> or

> > hermit nadas have this same cruel streak? Is it part of BPD, or is

> it

> > part of the queen and/or witch profile?

> >

> > My nada was mostly queen/witch, but when she sensed that she

> couldn't

> > win a confrontation any other way she'd turn absolute waif, and

> that

> > mean streak disappeared as fast as she did (she'd literally run

> away).

> > As soon as she felt it was safe to return, the queen/witch would

> be

> > back again in full color.

> >

> > Then I began to wonder if maybe her cruelty was something separate

> > from BPD. I don't remember reading much in UBM about deliberate

> > cruelty, aside from the " extreme " cases. I started to think maybe

> it

> > fell more under a sociopathic tendency... especially since I have

> two

> > other family members who have these same tendencies, but without

> all

> > the other characteristics of BPD.

> >

> > I'm curious as to what your experiences are. Does your nada have a

> > deliberate mean streak, and what profile does she fall under

> > (waif/hermit/queen/witch)? Do you have other FOO members who don't

> > have BPD but maybe have this same mean streak?

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I have a little different take on this. While I agree that everyone

has their own personality and temperament, I also think that BPD

really brings it out in people.

I think it works like this. First, anyone might have a mean impulse

now and then. Like if someone is rude to you, you might think " he's

so arrogant, I'd love to knock him down a peg. " But a normal person

lets that go and doesn't act on it. A BPD will obsess on it and

also feel very justified in acting on it, so they will plot out

something to get revenge on this person who was rude. Or, if they

are the fearful type they will not get revenge on that person, but

will go home and knock their kids down a peg or two by insulting

them and assaulting their self esteem. They feel totally right in

doing this because they feel bad inside. While a normal person

would think " I feel really angry, but I better not take it out on my

kids, so I'll just take some deep breaths and try to calm down. "

Next, the person with BPD will take almost anything as an attack

that justifies revenge. To a normal person if their kid says " hey,

I'm tired of listening to country music, can we change the station

on the radio? " A normal person might say " no, country music helps

me concentrate, we'll listen to your station later. " or they might

say " oh, ok. " But a BPD will take this as a horrible personal

attack and will in turn find a way to punish their child. Now a

witch or queen might punish in an overtly cruel way, and a hermit or

waif might say " Oh poor me, you never appreciate me, I sacrifice

everything for you and then all I want is to listen to the radio and

you won't even let me listen to what I want to listen to. It's

because you don't love me and you wish I would die. " That's not

physical cruelty, but it is mental and emotional cruelty. It is as

hurtful as a slap really.

Finally, many with BPD do not understand that other people are

people. Instead they view them as objects. This causes two

problems. First the BPD will get very upset if their kid doesn't do

exactly what they expect all of the time. It's like if you or I

bought a tv and it didn't work right. They think if a child shows

any independence it's a " defect " and needs to be " corrected. "

Secondly, because they view others as objects, they don't think

cruelty matters. If I bought a chair and then slowly burned the

chair a little at a time until it was all burned up, that's not

cruel, becuase it's a chair. If you are an object to them, they

will not think they are wrong to slowly torture you every day. The

only thing they are careful of is not to get caught doing it,

because they do understand that others wouldn't accept it.

Oh, also, some, though not all with BPD enjoy feeling in control of

others and sometimes they find the only way they feel in control of

others is to reduce them to tears or upset them.

[Guest guest]

>

>I spoke to my father the next day. He was having one of his more lucid

>and insightful moments. And here's what he said to me, that totally

>knocked the wind out of me: " Holly, I want to tell you that it kills

>me when I see you apologize to your mother like that. Sometimes you

>may do something wrong - we all do - and then it's right to apologize.

>But when you've done absolutely nothing, I hate to see you begging her

>forgiveness. When your mother gets like that, and she sees you

>faltering, she smells blood. She'll go for the jugular. And she will

>not stop until she sees you in tears. Don't let her do it to you. "

******* I remember the exact day and experience when I finally refused

to cry and grovel to my mother. I was a young mother with 4 children

and she was laying on the 'you don't love me, you hurt me sooooo

deeply all the time' like she had a million times before. But this

time, I was very clear on what I had not done. I was not a fault. I

had just made a choice seperate from her and against what she wanted

me to do. It wasn't a moral crisis or anything. I just didn't go

along with her and give her her own way. I remember something inside

of me steeling hard like rock and I said mentally to myself, " I will

never cry again when she berates me. " I didn't, and it was weeks

before we spoke again. But I never regretted what I had 'not' done.

I didn't know a thing about BPD then, and have only learned about it

in the past two years. My mother's behavior has become so much worse

with age. Dee

[Guest guest]

Nevada,

Thanks for so intelligently laying out these points. I agree with all you

said, most importantly to me that " The only thing they are careful of is

not to get caught doing it, because they do understand that others

wouldn't accept it. " This implies to me that most BPs know what they're

doing, know the difference between right and wrong, and know the

difference between loving and cruelty.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- Nevada wrote:

> I have a little different take on this. While I agree that everyone

> has their own personality and temperament, I also think that BPD

> really brings it out in people.

>

> I think it works like this. First, anyone might have a mean impulse

> now and then. Like if someone is rude to you, you might think " he's

> so arrogant, I'd love to knock him down a peg. " But a normal person

> lets that go and doesn't act on it. A BPD will obsess on it and

> also feel very justified in acting on it, so they will plot out

> something to get revenge on this person who was rude. Or, if they

> are the fearful type they will not get revenge on that person, but

> will go home and knock their kids down a peg or two by insulting

> them and assaulting their self esteem. They feel totally right in

> doing this because they feel bad inside. While a normal person

> would think " I feel really angry, but I better not take it out on my

> kids, so I'll just take some deep breaths and try to calm down. "

>

> Next, the person with BPD will take almost anything as an attack

> that justifies revenge. To a normal person if their kid says " hey,

> I'm tired of listening to country music, can we change the station

> on the radio? " A normal person might say " no, country music helps

> me concentrate, we'll listen to your station later. " or they might

> say " oh, ok. " But a BPD will take this as a horrible personal

> attack and will in turn find a way to punish their child. Now a

> witch or queen might punish in an overtly cruel way, and a hermit or

> waif might say " Oh poor me, you never appreciate me, I sacrifice

> everything for you and then all I want is to listen to the radio and

> you won't even let me listen to what I want to listen to. It's

> because you don't love me and you wish I would die. " That's not

> physical cruelty, but it is mental and emotional cruelty. It is as

> hurtful as a slap really.

>

> Finally, many with BPD do not understand that other people are

> people. Instead they view them as objects. This causes two

> problems. First the BPD will get very upset if their kid doesn't do

> exactly what they expect all of the time. It's like if you or I

> bought a tv and it didn't work right. They think if a child shows

> any independence it's a " defect " and needs to be " corrected. "

> Secondly, because they view others as objects, they don't think

> cruelty matters. If I bought a chair and then slowly burned the

> chair a little at a time until it was all burned up, that's not

> cruel, becuase it's a chair. If you are an object to them, they

> will not think they are wrong to slowly torture you every day. The

> only thing they are careful of is not to get caught doing it,

> because they do understand that others wouldn't accept it.

>

> Oh, also, some, though not all with BPD enjoy feeling in control of

> others and sometimes they find the only way they feel in control of

> others is to reduce them to tears or upset them.

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Ye Other KOs,

This thread on intentional cruelty is a good ongoing discussion. My nada is

a very cruel and mean and she once admitted she has a mean streak. She said

it was out of pain but I told her that I validated her feelings in that she was

in pain, but I was in just as much pain or more from what she had done to me.

My nada admitted once the things she did when she was young and they weren't

ornery childhood things, they were downright cruel and she said she did them

on purpose. Some of the things you old-timers have heard but the newbies

haven't:

1. My nada pinched babies when she was young. She would go up on the porch

and give the baby a pinch. She is now 83 and one of the other tenants in the

apartment building won't have anything to do with her because she remembers

her as the one who pinched babies. She admitted she made one of her playmates

eat a whole mud pie with green apples. She also admitted to putting some berry

juice in some pies while some people had them out cooling.

2. My nada threw some baby birds out of a nest. She said that was all she

did but who knows? I hope that is all.

3. When I was in my teens or so she would send anonymous letters to people

on the block who had a dog barking all night. She collected dog poop from one

of the neighbors dog who pooped in our yard and dumped in on their front step.

She would also send anonymous letters to people who had some wooden garden

lady ornament bent over looking over the garden. She sent anonymous letters to

her pastor when she didn't like his sermon. She sent more that one letter

to many people who had bad breath. She made anonymous phone calls too. (This

was before Caller ID).

4. She steals flowers off cemetery graves. She loves to wait for about two

hours after the family leaves and then off she goes to 'the free florist

shop'.

My nada has admitted some other things to me but they are just too gross to

put on this list. Not that I don't think you would believe me, but they are

just too gross. I think some of these things are cruel she does. To her they

seem harmless but I sure wouldn't want a letter telling me I had bad breath. I

asked her once how she would feel if someone would send her the same letters

and she said 'that person would be nuts'. And then she caught herself.

<high-five cyber slap>.

I haven't talked to my nada for months. I have really gone RC from NC. When

I walked out that time for over a year and three months I had really had it

and she knew it. I told my therapissant that while this is my nada, I just

couldn't take any more of the rages, false accusations, name calling, belitting,

you know the drill, KOs. When I left the relationshit is when she started to

'come around' a little. I tried everything. The thing that seems to be

working is changing how I react to her behaviors. She then really realized that

is

was pretty much over and the relationshit was on the last of it's last legs.

The lists and SWOE and SWOEW and UBM and some other books have helped me to

realize that I don't have to take this abuse anymore. Giving up for me seemed

to get her in line a little more.

The one thing my nada likes to do is re-fight old wars. Some of them she has

won, some she just like to pick at to creat chaos. I realized and learned

from the lists not to 'play tag' back. This is in SWOE. It's about winning

to her even if she has won. But, she will bring something up that happened

when I was three or fifteen. Instead of playing into her chaos and arguing I

just say, " good for me " . It's shuts her up really fast.

I caught her in a whopper of a lie once. She said my aunt had said something

about me. I was on my way down to my aunt's apartment to confront her and

ask her 'why'. Well, nada fessed up right then and there on the spot and said

that she had lied. Why? I asked her right there and then. She said she just

does and then begged me not to go to my aunt. I have found that when she

triangulates me or another person to get the other person together in front of

her

and ask them what they have said. It's fair and it clears me. It makes nada

squirm to be confronted and makes her look bad. <smirking>.

My therapissant has dx'ed my nada BPD even though he hasn't met her. " Oh,

yeah, she's definitely a borderline allright, " he says, but there is no way I

will ever tell her that he had said that because all heck will break out from a

third party dx. Holy cow.

The last time I talked to nada was months ago. She said that she was really

trying not to rage. She even stated that she hadn't 'had a Lucy' for over a

year. She can really tear someone's jugular out. She even caught herself

ranting and raving and said 'listen to me rant and rave'. I commended her for

her

progress but I still am waiting for the hoover and the other shoe to drop.

I'm not at a place where I can explain DBT to her. I just refer to it as

'self-monitering'.

I want to encourage you all to stay on the list(s). There is understanding,

compassion. bonding, love, education, loyality and all kinds of good stuff here

.. There is a camaraderie that I have never seen in my entire life. There is

also orneriness and stuff that only we KOs understand. <wink, wink>. I want

to welcome the newbies and say hi to the other old-timers. I've been around

since '98. Glad you found us. Sorry it has to be this way and the stuff in

your lives but, hey, this is the place to be understood.

Still moving and shaking in and progressing in Oz.

((((((((((KOs)))))))))))

((((((((Rita)))))))))) I always give myself a hug too. I take care of myself.

Wuvs you all, I think of you all as I wend my way around the lists.

Rita

" And she'll have fun, fun, fun 'till her daddy takes the keyboard away " .

[Guest guest]

Hi Nevada,

A couple of your points have really lingered in my mind over the

past few days:

I think what you said might be right, that a " normal " person might

have dark thoughts but never actually act on them, whereas BPD seems

to erase the line between thinking and acting. It's almost like BPD

is a magnifying glass - if a person entertains dark thoughts, then

that same person with BPD will have a mean streak. The darker the

thoughts, the worse the streak? The other thought I had was that

maybe the longer a person with BPD goes undiagnosed and untreated,

the more they feel entitled to act out whatever crosses their mind.

As a consequence to this, I wonder if some KOs end up with a mean

streak as more like a flea - this is how they're taught to interact

with the world, after all. I wonder, can a mean streak flea be

overcome?

Also, I liked what you said about nadas viewing people as objects.

Both of my parents absolutely viewed their children as objects and

not people, right down to the idea that we needed to be " fixed " if

we showed any independence. That makes me wonder if maybe all of the

PDs have this in common - certainly BPDs and NPDs view people as

objects, in terms of how they can get personal satisfaction from

others, and APDs (sociopaths) do this in terms of manipulation (for

fun or profit). It really puts into perspective how our nadas can be

so cruel and manipulative towards us - like you said, if we're on

the same level as the kitchen table, why feel bad over the

occasional ding and dent?

Thanks,

>

> I have a little different take on this. While I agree that

everyone

> has their own personality and temperament, I also think that BPD

> really brings it out in people.

>

> I think it works like this. First, anyone might have a mean

impulse

> now and then. Like if someone is rude to you, you might

think " he's

> so arrogant, I'd love to knock him down a peg. " But a normal

person

> lets that go and doesn't act on it. A BPD will obsess on it and

> also feel very justified in acting on it, so they will plot out

> something to get revenge on this person who was rude. Or, if they

> are the fearful type they will not get revenge on that person, but

> will go home and knock their kids down a peg or two by insulting

> them and assaulting their self esteem. They feel totally right in

> doing this because they feel bad inside. While a normal person

> would think " I feel really angry, but I better not take it out on

my

> kids, so I'll just take some deep breaths and try to calm down. "

>

> Next, the person with BPD will take almost anything as an attack

> that justifies revenge. To a normal person if their kid

says " hey,

> I'm tired of listening to country music, can we change the station

> on the radio? " A normal person might say " no, country music helps

> me concentrate, we'll listen to your station later. " or they might

> say " oh, ok. " But a BPD will take this as a horrible personal

> attack and will in turn find a way to punish their child. Now a

> witch or queen might punish in an overtly cruel way, and a hermit

or

> waif might say " Oh poor me, you never appreciate me, I sacrifice

> everything for you and then all I want is to listen to the radio

and

> you won't even let me listen to what I want to listen to. It's

> because you don't love me and you wish I would die. " That's not

> physical cruelty, but it is mental and emotional cruelty. It is

as

> hurtful as a slap really.

>

> Finally, many with BPD do not understand that other people are

> people. Instead they view them as objects. This causes two

> problems. First the BPD will get very upset if their kid doesn't

do

> exactly what they expect all of the time. It's like if you or I

> bought a tv and it didn't work right. They think if a child shows

> any independence it's a " defect " and needs to be " corrected. "

> Secondly, because they view others as objects, they don't think

> cruelty matters. If I bought a chair and then slowly burned the

> chair a little at a time until it was all burned up, that's not

> cruel, becuase it's a chair. If you are an object to them, they

> will not think they are wrong to slowly torture you every day.

The

> only thing they are careful of is not to get caught doing it,

> because they do understand that others wouldn't accept it.

>

> Oh, also, some, though not all with BPD enjoy feeling in control

of

> others and sometimes they find the only way they feel in control

of

> others is to reduce them to tears or upset them.

>

[Guest guest]

I agree... but the irony of it is that nadas don't seem to make the

connection between action and consequence. How can you learn from

experience when you can't see the connection between cause and effect?

Or is it just that they don't WANT to see that connection? Far easier

to believe you are a helpless victim than to take responsibility for

your own actions.

That's why I doubt my nada will ever get help - without seeing the

relationship between action and reaction, she'll go on believing the

world is hurting her and she's the helpless innocent.

What a miserable way to live.

>

> Personally I don't completely buy into the mental illness/disease

> part of the bpd diagnosis. I think there is something lacking in

> them and maybe even some genetic predisposition, but I also believe

> they are capable of much better behavior but like a spoiled child,

> if they have no consequences to their actions what is the incentive

> to act better?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think nada saw the connection between cause and effect but her

emotions and impulsive reactions overrode her conscience. However,

that doesn't mean she couldn't have changed her behavior. The fact

that she could turn it on and off so quickly always led me to

believe she could act right if she HAD TO but why should she?

In the least she could have acted out less, I don't think she was

capable of being consistently normal but it could have been better.

It was far easier to project onto others vs. working through her

inner turmoil. She took the easiest route for herself but her family

paid a high price for it.

Some might think that is harsh and that bp's are incapable of acting

right but I guess I prefer believing they are more capable than they

appear because otherwise they are doomed (and their families) to a

miserable fate with no hope of improvement and of no fault of their

own.

I give them more credit than that. I think anyone who has the

ability to conjure up retaliation schemes, distortion campaigns. etc

could learn to put that drive into something more constructive. As I

see it, she didn't because she had no incentive to, everyone was

playing her game and like a spoiled child she didn't want to stop

being the center of attention.

I really think it boils down to arrested emotional development and

just as a child born prematurely can physically catch up, I think a

bp can grow emotionally. But like a child if they live in an

environment where their behavior is condoned they won't change.

But..... I dunno. I'm not saying that if everyone left she would

have gotten better, but I think there are some bp's who could

improve once all their 'playmates' leave and that is why I feel it

serves no one to stick around and encourage their behavior.

However, it can also turn the other way, and the abandonment could

trigger such a strong emotional response that they just find new

victims....or they die. So I suppose it all depends on so many

things that there are no cut and dry answers.

It would be easier to believe that nada couldn't do any better, and

I don't say these things because I want to hold her accountable, it

is more about my belief that human beings are much more capable even

in the most difficult of situations and to not try to improve is not

a result of being incapable but a result of not wanting it enough.

Interesting topic.

>

> >

> > Personally I don't completely buy into the mental

illness/disease

> > part of the bpd diagnosis. I think there is something lacking in

> > them and maybe even some genetic predisposition, but I also

believe

> > they are capable of much better behavior but like a spoiled

child,

> > if they have no consequences to their actions what is the

incentive

> > to act better?

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

This is a very good point. My nada could also turn her behavior on

and off - if someone called or knocked on the door she'd transform

in a matter of seconds from a complete monster to Perfect Hostess.

But yet, when all five family members go NC with her and she finds

herself alone in an empty house, she cries helpless victim?

If she can see the cause and effect for the one (i.e. if my

friends/neighbors see my bad behavior they won't approve, so I'd

better stop doing this), then I have to believe she's capable of

seeing it for the other.

So now I'm left wondering if maybe a) there's not enough motivation

for her to stop what she's doing to keep family members around (this

would make sense if she's convinced herself that we're bad or evil,

which may well be the case), or there's a different kind of

motivation to keep doing what she's doing, whether that be drama,

attention, sympathy from outsiders, an attraction to misery, or

whatever. It could be both.

That's why I have trouble with the whole " she can't help it " theory,

too. Because someone who truly doesn't have any control over their

actions wouldn't respond so deliberately to events. There's a

calculation there; a decision is made in her mind just as it is for

everyone else, even if that decision is influenced by faulty

thinking. There's a thought process involved. Someone who is truly

insane, someone who truly " can't help it " , IMO, doesn't have this

thought process at all, they're just responding randomly to events.

Our justice system doesn't hold insane people accountable, but

everyone else gets measured by the same set of rules (at least,

that's the idea). No matter how disfunctional their thinking might

be. Because where do we start to draw the line between disfunctional

and " normal " thinking? I could argue that anyone who knowingly tries

to hurt another person suffers from disfunctional thinking; does

that excuse them from being held accountable?

It's not an easy question, though. Even our justice system has

problems: the Yates retrial (the woman who drowned her five

kids) found her not guilty by reason of insanity, but a local mother

diagnosed with Munchausen by Proxy (she submitted her kids to dozens

of unnecessary and dangerous medical procedures) is going to jail

for child abuse.

> >

> > >

> > > Personally I don't completely buy into the mental

> illness/disease

> > > part of the bpd diagnosis. I think there is something lacking

in

> > > them and maybe even some genetic predisposition, but I also

> believe

> > > they are capable of much better behavior but like a spoiled

> child,

> > > if they have no consequences to their actions what is the

> incentive

> > > to act better?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> Our justice system doesn't hold insane people accountable, but

> everyone else gets measured by the same set of rules (at least,

> that's the idea). No matter how disfunctional their thinking might

> be. Because where do we start to draw the line between disfunctional

> and " normal " thinking? I could argue that anyone who knowingly tries

> to hurt another person suffers from disfunctional thinking; does

> that excuse them from being held accountable?

>

Ok, I do know a little on this topic. By and large personality

disorders don't fit the legal definition of insanity and so people

with personality disorders aren't generally found not guilty by reason

of insanity. By and large you see this with serial killers who have

anti-social personality disorder. They know it's wrong to kill, they

take great pains to hide their crimes, and yet they kill anyone.

Nobody could deny that they've clearly got a few screws loose and then

some, but LEGALLY they are sane.

The same pattern is seen in other personality disorders too. They

seem unable to keep from engaging in destructive behavior and yet can

tell the difference between right and wrong.

If we are to believe Yates' account, she's clearly in the

insane category, since she claimed she had to kill her children to

save them from hell and it was what God wanted. She then called the

police to tell them about it rather then covering up the crime.

Though clearly she is also very dangerous and likely can never live in

the outside world again.

A recent study on narcissist though demonstrated that narcissists have

very poor impulse control--I wish I could find the study again. The

smame might be true of Borderlines as well. With borderlines though

you will often find poor impulse control grouped together with

revisionist memories and the use of emotions to create facts. This

means the borderline will lash out when she/he feels threatened.

Later due to cognitive dissonance (the conflict between actions and an

ideal self) they will revise what happened and in the retelling

frequently the other person was attacking. I truly think my mother

would pass lie detector tests on it. The final one, emotions=facts

comes down to something like this " I feel hurt and angry, therefore

someone must be making me feel hurt and angry. It must be you--you're

making me feel hurt and angry. You're plotting against me! I know

it's true! " or simply " I feel abused therefore I am abused. "

While these harmful defense mechanisms seem to be beyond the person's

control, they still don't meet the legal definition of insane. The

person still lives in essentially the same world we do and they still

know the difference between right and wrong.

If this seems simplistic, imagine if someone came up to you and

started insulting you and your entire family in really vile terms.

You might know you should walk away, but your impulse is to fight

back. To someone with BPD almost anything is an attack and they

somehow feel justified in lashing out. Most can control it around

others and wait until they're alone with their victim, but I know with

my own mother several times while I was growing up people saw her

bizarre and disturbed behavior. Sometimes she seriously couldn't act

normal to save her own life.

[Guest guest]

" If she can see the cause and effect for the one (i.e. if my

friends/neighbors see my bad behavior they won't approve, so I'd

better stop doing this), then I have to believe she's capable of

seeing it for the other. "

I think that it's different because BPDs see their family members as

objects. We're not people to them, so they don't seek our approval.

They don't see possible consequences with families because we aren't

people, and only actions against people warrant consequences.

[Guest guest]

Rita,

You did it again.

“She said 'that person would be nuts'. And then she caught herself.

<high-five cyber slap>.” . . . Your “Therapissant” . . . “the

relationshit” . . . Your nada “hadn't 'had a Lucy'.”

Thanks for the laughs.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- Chu7190565@... wrote:

> Ye Other KOs,

>

> This thread on intentional cruelty is a good ongoing discussion. My

> nada is

> a very cruel and mean and she once admitted she has a mean streak. She

> said

> it was out of pain but I told her that I validated her feelings in that

> she was

> in pain, but I was in just as much pain or more from what she had done

> to me.

>

> My nada admitted once the things she did when she was young and they

> weren't

> ornery childhood things, they were downright cruel and she said she did

> them

> on purpose. Some of the things you old-timers have heard but the

> newbies

> haven't:

>

> 1. My nada pinched babies when she was young. She would go up on the

> porch

> and give the baby a pinch. She is now 83 and one of the other tenants

> in the

> apartment building won't have anything to do with her because she

> remembers

> her as the one who pinched babies. She admitted she made one of her

> playmates

> eat a whole mud pie with green apples. She also admitted to putting

> some berry

> juice in some pies while some people had them out cooling.

>

> 2. My nada threw some baby birds out of a nest. She said that was all

> she

> did but who knows? I hope that is all.

>

> 3. When I was in my teens or so she would send anonymous letters to

> people

> on the block who had a dog barking all night. She collected dog poop

> from one

> of the neighbors dog who pooped in our yard and dumped in on their front

> step.

> She would also send anonymous letters to people who had some wooden

> garden

> lady ornament bent over looking over the garden. She sent anonymous

> letters to

> her pastor when she didn't like his sermon. She sent more that one

> letter

> to many people who had bad breath. She made anonymous phone calls too.

> (This

> was before Caller ID).

>

> 4. She steals flowers off cemetery graves. She loves to wait for about

> two

> hours after the family leaves and then off she goes to 'the free florist

>

> shop'.

>

> My nada has admitted some other things to me but they are just too gross

> to

> put on this list. Not that I don't think you would believe me, but they

> are

> just too gross. I think some of these things are cruel she does. To

> her they

> seem harmless but I sure wouldn't want a letter telling me I had bad

> breath. I

> asked her once how she would feel if someone would send her the same

> letters

> and she said 'that person would be nuts'. And then she caught herself.

>

> <high-five cyber slap>.

>

> I haven't talked to my nada for months. I have really gone RC from NC.

> When

> I walked out that time for over a year and three months I had really had

> it

> and she knew it. I told my therapissant that while this is my nada, I

> just

> couldn't take any more of the rages, false accusations, name calling,

> belitting,

> you know the drill, KOs. When I left the relationshit is when she

> started to

> 'come around' a little. I tried everything. The thing that seems to be

> working is changing how I react to her behaviors. She then really

> realized that is

> was pretty much over and the relationshit was on the last of it's last

> legs.

> The lists and SWOE and SWOEW and UBM and some other books have helped me

> to

> realize that I don't have to take this abuse anymore. Giving up for me

> seemed

> to get her in line a little more.

>

> The one thing my nada likes to do is re-fight old wars. Some of them

> she has

> won, some she just like to pick at to creat chaos. I realized and

> learned

> from the lists not to 'play tag' back. This is in SWOE. It's about

> winning

> to her even if she has won. But, she will bring something up that

> happened

> when I was three or fifteen. Instead of playing into her chaos and

> arguing I

> just say, " good for me " . It's shuts her up really fast.

>

> I caught her in a whopper of a lie once. She said my aunt had said

> something

> about me. I was on my way down to my aunt's apartment to confront her

> and

> ask her 'why'. Well, nada fessed up right then and there on the spot

> and said

> that she had lied. Why? I asked her right there and then. She said

> she just

> does and then begged me not to go to my aunt. I have found that when

> she

> triangulates me or another person to get the other person together in

> front of her

> and ask them what they have said. It's fair and it clears me. It makes

> nada

> squirm to be confronted and makes her look bad. <smirking>.

>

> My therapissant has dx'ed my nada BPD even though he hasn't met her.

> " Oh,

> yeah, she's definitely a borderline allright, " he says, but there is no

> way I

> will ever tell her that he had said that because all heck will break out

> from a

> third party dx. Holy cow.

>

> The last time I talked to nada was months ago. She said that she was

> really

> trying not to rage. She even stated that she hadn't 'had a Lucy' for

> over a

> year. She can really tear someone's jugular out. She even caught

> herself

> ranting and raving and said 'listen to me rant and rave'. I commended

> her for her

> progress but I still am waiting for the hoover and the other shoe to

> drop.

> I'm not at a place where I can explain DBT to her. I just refer to it

> as

> 'self-monitering'.

>

> I want to encourage you all to stay on the list(s). There is

> understanding,

> compassion. bonding, love, education, loyality and all kinds of good

> stuff here

> . There is a camaraderie that I have never seen in my entire life.

> There is

> also orneriness and stuff that only we KOs understand. <wink, wink>. I

> want

> to welcome the newbies and say hi to the other old-timers. I've been

> around

> since '98. Glad you found us. Sorry it has to be this way and the

> stuff in

> your lives but, hey, this is the place to be understood.

>

> Still moving and shaking in and progressing in Oz.

>

> ((((((((((KOs)))))))))))

>

> ((((((((Rita)))))))))) I always give myself a hug too. I take care of

> myself.

>

> Wuvs you all, I think of you all as I wend my way around the lists.

>

> Rita

> " And she'll have fun, fun, fun 'till her daddy takes the keyboard away " .

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for sharing your usual eloquently insightful thoughts. You've told

my story and expressed my views again.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- cre8within wrote:

>

> Looking back, I think nada's cruelty mostly stemmed from a raging

> insecurity and a severely unhappy state of mind. Even as adults, my

> siblings and I could become a target if she thought we looked better

> than her, seemed happy, was achieving more than her, or if our dad

> gave us any attention, etc.

>

> One thing that separates a bp from a non is that bp's impulsively

> and overly react to any threat, mostly imagined, with the reaction

> of an animal that's being cornered and attacked. They lack the

> ability to control their reactions and usually pick a spouse who

> will not stand up to them and so they are free to act out.

>

> I get the feeling that when nada got that nasty look on her face

> just before an attack that she felt so much self hatred and supreme

> unhappiness that rather than deal with her feelings she catapulted

> them at us as if they were a weapon.

>

> I still see that as deliberate cruelty because she had a choice, and

> I think she could have controlled it and the reason I say that is

> because she could flip the switch in an instant if the phone rang or

> someone knocked on the door. She could be in the middle of a rage,

> crying, etc and turn it off and answer the phone like Suzy Sunshine.

>

> I always got the feeling it was a form of sick entertainment for

> her, gather the kids and husband 'round the living room and torment

> them.

>

> Truth is, she had no incentive to act differently because my dad

> learned that challenging her meant hours and hours of nada's wrath

> and we kids had no choice, so my dad's advice (spoken in a whisper

> after the storm had passed, lest nada hear him and erupt again)

> was `just let it go.'

>

> In other words, let go of the feelings of frustration, the

> injustice, the anger, but of course it isn't that simple and it ends

> up getting buried.

>

> Personally I don't completely buy into the mental illness/disease

> part of the bpd diagnosis. I think there is something lacking in

> them and maybe even some genetic predisposition, but I also believe

> they are capable of much better behavior but like a spoiled child,

> if they have no consequences to their actions what is the incentive

> to act better?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for sharing your excellent observations and bringing up important

questions. I agree about BPs. I think most of them know right from wrong.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- sherby2k wrote:

> This is a very good point. My nada could also turn her behavior on

> and off - if someone called or knocked on the door she'd transform

> in a matter of seconds from a complete monster to Perfect Hostess.

>

> But yet, when all five family members go NC with her and she finds

> herself alone in an empty house, she cries helpless victim?

>

> If she can see the cause and effect for the one (i.e. if my

> friends/neighbors see my bad behavior they won't approve, so I'd

> better stop doing this), then I have to believe she's capable of

> seeing it for the other.

>

> So now I'm left wondering if maybe a) there's not enough motivation

> for her to stop what she's doing to keep family members around (this

> would make sense if she's convinced herself that we're bad or evil,

> which may well be the case), or there's a different kind of

> motivation to keep doing what she's doing, whether that be drama,

> attention, sympathy from outsiders, an attraction to misery, or

> whatever. It could be both.

>

> That's why I have trouble with the whole " she can't help it " theory,

> too. Because someone who truly doesn't have any control over their

> actions wouldn't respond so deliberately to events. There's a

> calculation there; a decision is made in her mind just as it is for

> everyone else, even if that decision is influenced by faulty

> thinking. There's a thought process involved. Someone who is truly

> insane, someone who truly " can't help it " , IMO, doesn't have this

> thought process at all, they're just responding randomly to events.

>

> Our justice system doesn't hold insane people accountable, but

> everyone else gets measured by the same set of rules (at least,

> that's the idea). No matter how disfunctional their thinking might

> be. Because where do we start to draw the line between disfunctional

> and " normal " thinking? I could argue that anyone who knowingly tries

> to hurt another person suffers from disfunctional thinking; does

> that excuse them from being held accountable?

>

> It's not an easy question, though. Even our justice system has

> problems: the Yates retrial (the woman who drowned her five

> kids) found her not guilty by reason of insanity, but a local mother

> diagnosed with Munchausen by Proxy (she submitted her kids to dozens

> of unnecessary and dangerous medical procedures) is going to jail

> for child abuse.

>

>

>

>

>

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Personally I don't completely buy into the mental

> > illness/disease

> > > > part of the bpd diagnosis. I think there is something lacking

> in

> > > > them and maybe even some genetic predisposition, but I also

> > believe

> > > > they are capable of much better behavior but like a spoiled

> > child,

> > > > if they have no consequences to their actions what is the

> > incentive

> > > > to act better?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Nevada,

Thanks for sharing this important information and your insights. I agree.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- Nevada wrote:

>

> > Our justice system doesn't hold insane people accountable, but

> > everyone else gets measured by the same set of rules (at least,

> > that's the idea). No matter how disfunctional their thinking might

> > be. Because where do we start to draw the line between disfunctional

> > and " normal " thinking? I could argue that anyone who knowingly tries

> > to hurt another person suffers from disfunctional thinking; does

> > that excuse them from being held accountable?

> >

>

> Ok, I do know a little on this topic. By and large personality

> disorders don't fit the legal definition of insanity and so people

> with personality disorders aren't generally found not guilty by reason

> of insanity. By and large you see this with serial killers who have

> anti-social personality disorder. They know it's wrong to kill, they

> take great pains to hide their crimes, and yet they kill anyone.

> Nobody could deny that they've clearly got a few screws loose and then

> some, but LEGALLY they are sane.

>

> The same pattern is seen in other personality disorders too. They

> seem unable to keep from engaging in destructive behavior and yet can

> tell the difference between right and wrong.

>

> If we are to believe Yates' account, she's clearly in the

> insane category, since she claimed she had to kill her children to

> save them from hell and it was what God wanted. She then called the

> police to tell them about it rather then covering up the crime.

> Though clearly she is also very dangerous and likely can never live in

> the outside world again.

>

> A recent study on narcissist though demonstrated that narcissists have

> very poor impulse control--I wish I could find the study again. The

> smame might be true of Borderlines as well. With borderlines though

> you will often find poor impulse control grouped together with

> revisionist memories and the use of emotions to create facts. This

> means the borderline will lash out when she/he feels threatened.

> Later due to cognitive dissonance (the conflict between actions and an

> ideal self) they will revise what happened and in the retelling

> frequently the other person was attacking. I truly think my mother

> would pass lie detector tests on it. The final one, emotions=facts

> comes down to something like this " I feel hurt and angry, therefore

> someone must be making me feel hurt and angry. It must be you--you're

> making me feel hurt and angry. You're plotting against me! I know

> it's true! " or simply " I feel abused therefore I am abused. "

>

> While these harmful defense mechanisms seem to be beyond the person's

> control, they still don't meet the legal definition of insane. The

> person still lives in essentially the same world we do and they still

> know the difference between right and wrong.

>

> If this seems simplistic, imagine if someone came up to you and

> started insulting you and your entire family in really vile terms.

> You might know you should walk away, but your impulse is to fight

> back. To someone with BPD almost anything is an attack and they

> somehow feel justified in lashing out. Most can control it around

> others and wait until they're alone with their victim, but I know with

> my own mother several times while I was growing up people saw her

> bizarre and disturbed behavior. Sometimes she seriously couldn't act

> normal to save her own life.

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Nevada,

Thanks for sharing your insights on this. I admit that the

Yates retrial actually triggered me quite a bit, but I think it was

because I didn't fully understand the legal definition of insanity.

Your explanation makes it a lot clearer to me - I'm not sure if I

agree with the trial's outcome or not, but at least now I understand

why it was decided that way.

Also I really appreciated your description of BPD behavior. It's not

that nada doesn't know what she's doing; it's that most of the time

her behavior is a reaction, an impulse. And even if she knows at

some level after the fact that what she's done is wrong or cruel,

that thought is unacceptable to her and so she changes it to either

justify what she does, or she modifies her memory of it entirely.

It's like a vicious downward spiral.

So what that means to me is that it's not really a mental illness.

There's faulty thinking involved, but it's more like an emotional

and behavioral problem, a grouping of bad habits that all pile on

top of each other. Like a bad habit, it's not impossible to change

the behavior, but it requires identifying the bad behavior, then

learning ways to stop the bad behavior before it happens, then

learning healthier replacements for that bad behavior. And that

would probably require a lot of motivation and a lot of persistence,

not to mention maturity to be able to handle all of this. All of

which my nada lacks.

All this to say that I still don't excuse my nada for all the junk

she's dealt down through the years. She does know right from wrong,

and she is aware (at some level) of what she does. She avoids

responsibility for her actions. She gives herself permission to be

cruel and that's not something I can tolerate. But understanding it

better does help me to work through some of the anger when I feel

like calling BPD a disorder lets her " off the hook " , so to speak.

She's still responsible for her own actions, just like the rest of

us.

Thanks,

> Ok, I do know a little on this topic. By and large personality

> disorders don't fit the legal definition of insanity and so people

> with personality disorders aren't generally found not guilty by

reason

> of insanity. By and large you see this with serial killers who

have

> anti-social personality disorder. They know it's wrong to kill,

they

> take great pains to hide their crimes, and yet they kill anyone.

> Nobody could deny that they've clearly got a few screws loose and

then

> some, but LEGALLY they are sane.

>

> The same pattern is seen in other personality disorders too. They

> seem unable to keep from engaging in destructive behavior and yet

can

> tell the difference between right and wrong.

>

> If we are to believe Yates' account, she's clearly in the

> insane category, since she claimed she had to kill her children to

> save them from hell and it was what God wanted. She then called

the

> police to tell them about it rather then covering up the crime.

> Though clearly she is also very dangerous and likely can never

live in

> the outside world again.

>

> A recent study on narcissist though demonstrated that narcissists

have

> very poor impulse control--I wish I could find the study again.

The

> smame might be true of Borderlines as well. With borderlines

though

> you will often find poor impulse control grouped together with

> revisionist memories and the use of emotions to create facts.

This

> means the borderline will lash out when she/he feels threatened.

> Later due to cognitive dissonance (the conflict between actions

and an

> ideal self) they will revise what happened and in the retelling

> frequently the other person was attacking. I truly think my

mother

> would pass lie detector tests on it. The final one,

emotions=facts

> comes down to something like this " I feel hurt and angry,

therefore

> someone must be making me feel hurt and angry. It must be you--

you're

> making me feel hurt and angry. You're plotting against me! I

know

> it's true! " or simply " I feel abused therefore I am abused. "

>

> While these harmful defense mechanisms seem to be beyond the

person's

> control, they still don't meet the legal definition of insane.

The

> person still lives in essentially the same world we do and they

still

> know the difference between right and wrong.

>

> If this seems simplistic, imagine if someone came up to you and

> started insulting you and your entire family in really vile

terms.

> You might know you should walk away, but your impulse is to fight

> back. To someone with BPD almost anything is an attack and they

> somehow feel justified in lashing out. Most can control it around

> others and wait until they're alone with their victim, but I know

with

> my own mother several times while I was growing up people saw her

> bizarre and disturbed behavior. Sometimes she seriously couldn't

act

> normal to save her own life.

>

[Guest guest]

Holly,

" Borderline lite, " huh? I'll have an order of sanity, hold the BPD,

regular neuroticism on the side . . .

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- holligolightly68 wrote:

> Yes, it was a breakthrough moment indeed, and then just a few short

> weeks later I found SWOE...fate works in mysterious ways, huh? I've

> thought about giving him the book, since he seemed to have such a

> moment of insight... but then decided I probably won't. Because it was

> really just a moment, and at 78 I just don't think he can deal with

> confronting all of it.

>

> Thanks for the compliments on my screen name. Have you read the thread

> about fictional characters with BPD? The site lists Ms. Golightly as

> " borderline lite. " Now *that* made me smile. Wonder why I always

> identified with her....

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi All,

> > > > >

> > > > > I've been thinking about this recently, and since it's come up

> in

> > > > a

> > > > > recent thread I wanted to open it up for discussion. Many of us

> > > > have

> > > > > experienced cruel behavior at the hands of our nadas. Judging

> from

> > > > > what I've read here, lots of us (including myself) believe this

> > > > > cruelty is intentional and deliberate. At first I thought this

> was

> > > > > just part of the whole BPD package. But then I wondered - do

> waif

> > > > or

> > > > > hermit nadas have this same cruel streak? Is it part of BPD,

> or is

> > > > it

> > > > > part of the queen and/or witch profile?

> > > > >

> > > > > My nada was mostly queen/witch, but when she sensed that she

> > > > couldn't

> > > > > win a confrontation any other way she'd turn absolute waif, and

> > > > that

> > > > > mean streak disappeared as fast as she did (she'd literally run

> > > > away).

> > > > > As soon as she felt it was safe to return, the queen/witch would

>

> > > > be

> > > > > back again in full color.

> > > > >

> > > > > Then I began to wonder if maybe her cruelty was something

> separate

> > > > > from BPD. I don't remember reading much in UBM about deliberate

> > > > > cruelty, aside from the " extreme " cases. I started to think

> maybe

> > > > it

> > > > > fell more under a sociopathic tendency... especially since I

> have

> > > > two

> > > > > other family members who have these same tendencies, but without

>

> > > > all

> > > > > the other characteristics of BPD.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm curious as to what your experiences are. Does your nada

> have a

> > > > > deliberate mean streak, and what profile does she fall under

> > > > > (waif/hermit/queen/witch)? Do you have other FOO members who

> don't

> > > > > have BPD but maybe have this same mean streak?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >