A specialized set of characteristics

October 18, 2005

Wow, Sakura,

You sure hit the nail on the head for me when you wrote, “It’s really hard to

feel like you have a personality when FOO has trained you to display such a

specialized set of characteristics…you get out in the world and you are still so

used to gauging and putting on your ‘deal with nada mask’, and . . . you don’t

know how to act . . . it can be so subliminal”. That was a BIG part of my

challenge for many years. “Specialized set of characteristics”: I like that.

What a great euphemism or alternative phrase for abuse adaptations, personality

warping and survival techniques. It IS “so subliminal” for me. I still do

reality checks with myself, but it’s nothing like the constant, moment-to-moment

exhaustive, self-monitoring “gauging and putting on your ‘deal with nada mask’”

I used to do. Thanks for expressing your insights and for your clarity.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

Sakura wrote:

Wow, that is just freaky with Dr. Phil. I’m sure that would make a really good

potential show subject in itself, considering how much he likes to feature bad

parenting techniques.

I think what you’ve described as lack of personality and withdrawal is really

normal for us KO. As a matter of fact, you reminded me of that part of my early

life out of the house. It’s really hard to feel like you have a personality

when FOO has trained you to display such a specialized set of

characteristics…you get out in the world and you are still so used to gauging

and putting on your ‘deal with nada mask’, and suddenly you don’t know how to

act anymore. These people are nice, how will they pull the rug out from under

me in the future? What do they want? And it can be so subliminal. I still

feel that way sometimes when I’m with new people and not comfortable yet. But

it does get better.

Cheers,

Sakura

>i am wondering if there is anything that i can do/say to the people

October 19, 2005

Nada had usually hit me with whatever was in her hand at the time

when she'd get angry, I was in 8th grade the last time I allowed her

to hit me with a thick yardstick, she put several welts on my legs

and I couldn't sit for 3 days without pain, she made me feel I

deserved it because I had been sleeping on the floor in order not to

wrinkle my bed covers because nada was particular about how she had

us make our beds. My dad got a kick out of how I handled getting out

of making the bed to perfection, nada didn't think it was so funny

She broke yardsticks on us hairbrushes, throw vases at us for various

things. when nada and dad divorced, dad told judge about her hitting

me, so when the judge pulled me into chambers and asked if " mom " ever

beat me I told him she disciplined me because I diliberately

disobeyed her and I deserved it. Judge gave custody of me to nada

and her boyfriend, and the hell began. In high school nada had me go

to a physciatrist because her and her husband kept telling me there's

something wrong with you you need to get your head examined...They

had a completely different set of ways you had to do things such as

you can't wash your hair in the sink only in the bathtub, I preferred

the sink as I had really long hair and the bathtub drain would catch

my hair in it and on the lever that you close the drain with. They

accused me of being sexually active and being on birthcontrol pills

when I was 15 because I had long hair on my arms, I was not sexually

active and had only kissed a boy all through high school so they took

me to get my " head examined " at 15 nada sat in on the session and

they discussed my nada's hubby and why I was having trouble and doc

asked my what it was like to talk to nada's hubby, I told him you

don't talk to him, you listen and there's no discussion, Nada was

pleased with my answer as she'd been telling phsyc doc how impossible

her hubby was. Doc told me to just do things how nada's hubby wants

things done, iron his jeans ,shirts, don't use sink to wash hair, use

only the type of soap he buys etc... Nada told me I needed to act

more like another girl at my school, (who by the way was extremely

promiscuis ?sp?) No way would I act like her. They would talk about

nada not having orgasms and stuff like that to me, none of my

business is how I felt. Nada would read self help books, and then

try to apply them to me or my sibling, who was married by now. She

used to watch Oprah and would call me after I was married and tell me

I needed to get on Oprah's website and watch these episodes they'll

help you understand what's wrong...I told her I wasn't going to waste

my time watching Oprah, Although Oprah does do good things, some of

her shows are not in accordance with scripture and I was not going to

waste my time trying to figure out if what she said was truth or

not. I finally figured out when ever nada accused others of

something and was in a tizzy trying to fix everyone elses sins, she

was the one who actually had done what she accused others of. Took

me almost 20 years after high school to figure that one out. I could

almost tell you which self help book she's been reading because she

has to try it out on me. I'm pretty sure she's reading something

right now on love languages because she told me I didn't know what

her love language was and she didn't know mine. I told her that's

okay I don't think we really need a love language...I don't think she

liked my answer. If she really would be honest and not be so

deceptive things would be much better. But she can't face her

reality yet and so I wait, I don't respond with emotion, I don't get

angry, I don't show excitement I just wait for her to stop her antics

and manipulation. She finally called me last night and offered me

her old refrigerator as she knew mine wasn't very good and she was

actually very pleasant to speak with and that was a first in several

years. So those who are NC or partly NC keep your chin up and when

nada/fada, even if it's temporarily, changes a behavior/attitude for

the good at that moment...rejoice.

> Wow, Sakura,

>

> You sure hit the nail on the head for me when you wrote, " It's

really hard to feel like you have a personality when FOO has trained

you to display such a specialized set of characteristics…you get out

in the world and you are still so used to gauging and putting on

your `deal with nada mask', and . . . you don't know how to

act . . . it can be so subliminal " . That was a BIG part of my

challenge for many years. " Specialized set of characteristics " : I

like that. What a great euphemism or alternative phrase for abuse

adaptations, personality warping and survival techniques. It IS " so

subliminal " for me. I still do reality checks with myself, but it's

nothing like the constant, moment-to-moment exhaustive, self-

monitoring " gauging and putting on your `deal with nada mask' " I used

to do. Thanks for expressing your insights and for your clarity.

>

> One Non-BP Recovering Man

>

> Sakura <gothcookie@y...> wrote:

> Wow, that is just freaky with Dr. Phil. I'm sure that would make a

really good potential show subject in itself, considering how much he

likes to feature bad parenting techniques.

>

> I think what you've described as lack of personality and withdrawal

is really normal for us KO. As a matter of fact, you reminded me of

that part of my early life out of the house. It's really hard to

feel like you have a personality when FOO has trained you to display

such a specialized set of characteristics…you get out in the world

and you are still so used to gauging and putting on your `deal with

nada mask', and suddenly you don't know how to act anymore. These

people are nice, how will they pull the rug out from under me in the

future? What do they want? And it can be so subliminal. I still

feel that way sometimes when I'm with new people and not comfortable

yet. But it does get better.

>

> Cheers,

>

> Sakura

>

> >i am wondering if there is anything that i can do/say to the

people

>

October 19, 2005

Non-BP Dude,

Thank you. You are all making me blush today…in all seriousness, I still find

myself prone to this behavior when I’m not on comfortable ground. The draining

of personality and the schooling of the face to blandness, also the shroud that

falls over my brain that makes me forget who I am. I’m profoundly uncomfortable

in group situations such as parties…making small talk is a bear when you have

forgotten answers to basic polite questions. On my first visit to the

therapist, she asked me how old I am…would you believe that I completely forgot

my age? Off the cuff, I just blurted out an age a few years younger than I am.

I felt like such an idiot.

But the very worst times that can’t be avoided are job interviews. I will be

facing this again soon too and I’m scared poopless. I’m sure that the wise

folks on this list are going to know exactly what I’m talking about. During job

searches, I can write a decent resume, craft good cover letters, etc. When it

comes down to the interview, I forget what my talents are, who I am and what I’m

seeking in a position. I turn into this chameleon trying to pick up on whatever

the interviewer seems to want to hear and custom crafting my answers as best I

can to fit. If I’m having a problem picking up these vibes, I freeze up like

the deer in the headlights and display little personality. A very bad habit

that dates back to trying to please fada. I have ended up in more than one

unhappy job situation because of this and I would really like to assert myself

more…make my next interview more of a 50/50 exchange. Within the next year I

will have to deal with this again. Urgh.

Thanks again to Motorlegs for jogging my memory and helping me connect this to

what I used to experience. I never really was able to express it as a draining

of personality but that is exactly what would happen.

Cheers,

Sakura

>You sure hit the nail on the head for me when you wrote, “It’s really

>hard to feel like you have a personality when FOO has trained you to

October 22, 2005

Sakura,

I’ve wanted to reply to you since your 10/19 posts. Thank you for their

insightfulness, articulateness and eloquence. For me, they were very powerful.

I felt very unsettled by them, even after seeing them again three days later.

The way you said them is the closest I’ve ever heard anyone echo those thoughts

of mine about behavior that seems to be unique to BP’s. You didn’t do anything

wrong. I felt as if you, a friendly person, pulled my covers, peaked inside my

brain and said “Hi! I know you.”

When I read your words, “The things that are most important to us got beaten

down by them. My choices in men and employers were particularly scrutinized”, I

nodded, “yes”. Like others have also noted, what my nada and FOO DON’T know

about me is untouched, undamaged and uncorrupted by them. Before I went mostly

or totally NC (alternately over the years) with nada and/or dishrag fada,

whatever they knew about my choices in women, employers, careers, food, health,

recreation -- main interests in most people’s lives -- was subject to

non-interest, denigration, ridicule, smearing and abuse.

When I read, “The draining of personality and the schooling of the face to

blandness, also the shroud that falls over my brain that makes me forget who I

am. I’m profoundly uncomfortable in group situations such as parties…making

small talk is a bear”, I thought, “WOW, we must be twin non-BP’s of different

nadas!” Long ago I trained myself to be mostly comfortable in group situations

and to make small talk. However, “The draining of personality and the schooling

of the face to blandness” is apparently still a major challenge for me. Some of

my research indicates that I may still be exhibiting mannerisms, body language,

physiognomy (body form), and, possibly, some sort of “victim”-y and/or

BP-adapted energy that 99% of people still, unless they know me at least some,

seem to usually react to as if they feel unsettled, concerned and/or fearful in

my presence. I have long been frustrated and saddened by this seemingly

intractable challenge. What amounts to the “blandness”, as you

put it, in my usual facial expression seems to provide a mirror for other

people, who, when faced with or reminded of their own insecurities, try to cover

them by going on the offensive. It has apparently led to many incidents of what

I call “unprovoked aggression”. Some of these incidents involved obviously

disturbed people picking me out of a crowd and making threatening comments to or

at me. Apparently, when this happens, it is because people are feeling so

uncomfortable with their feelings that, to make themselves feel better, they

lash out at any apparently vulnerable target within range -- me. This was VERY

unnerving for me until I began, years ago, to understand that I hadn’t done

anything to provoke them, and that something extremely subtle was going on. I’m

very interested to hear anyone’s comments about and experiences with “unprovoked

aggression”.

When I read, “I finally figured out when ever nada accused others of something

and was in a tizzy trying to fix everyone elses sins, she was the one who

actually had done what she accused others of. Took me almost 20 years after

high school to figure that one out”, I thought, “oh, man, that was one of my

biggest revelations.” I also took many years and what a relief it was “to

figure that one out”.

My experience is in agreement with your statement, “KO’s in particular fight

their entire lives to reverse the early training received from BPD’s that they

are worthless losers with nothing valuable to contribute…” and I agree that “the

sharing of ideas on this list proves the lie.” I long ago stopped believing

nada and FOO’s lies and damned lies about who I am and my value. Yet, I am

still greatly challenged to define and express the excellent value I know I

have. I believe that is an indication of the depth, toughness and amount of

work I still have to do to heal and move forward from those devastating

mis-assessments, devaluations, undermining and sabotage of me by my nada and

FOO. Still, I’d rather be where I am, chipping and hacking away at the core of

my onion, than ignoring, denying or condemning it.

When I read, “the whole point of using such terminology to describe your

behavior is belittle you and make themselves feel like they got over on you…kind

of a ‘you’ve been served’ moment for them”, and “Most of my fada’s comments were

masked as humor at my expense”, I cringed. You also wrote, “Yes, the f/nadas

really seem to go out of their way to do the exact opposite of what is good for

you.” For me, it touches again on an aspect of it that’s difficult to think of

or talk about: evil. It implies, for me, among other things, a deliberate

intent to take over (absorb or introject another person’s identity; other

possibilities include spiritual possession) and/or destroy another person. My

view is naturally affected by my non-BP history and my perspective of my nada

and FOO’s lifelong treatment of me. My experience includes my n/fada allowing,

encouraging, putting and forcing me to be in, and not protecting me from,

difficult and embarrassing social and living situations,

years-long physical danger and pain, giving me incredibly bizarre, twisted and

destructive advice, and non-advice, about almost all of life’s major points,

issues and opportunities, viciously smearing me to, sabotaging and splitting my

relationships with my siblings and others, and sadistically treating and

neglecting me physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually. When people

say things such as, “How could a parent do that to their own child” it touches

on moral, philosophical and spiritual questions. However, “the whole point”, as

you wrote, describes the immediate motivation. That’s the chilling part for me,

even after all these years. I understand the family and intrapersonal dynamics

of deeper BPD motivation of trying to make themselves feel better. Most people

want to do that. It’s that `getting over on you’, “’you’ve been served’ moment

for them”, as you wrote, that’s creepy for me. That evil means to the

understandable end. Very disturbing, yet important for me

to think about a little bit once in a while. It took me many years to stop

suspecting and start realizing that I really was living my life upside down or

backward -- or both. Your statements above, which so closely echo some of my

most consistent thoughts over the years about what happened and was happening,

help me to confirm WHY I made so many of the adaptations I did, the very good

reasons for that, and why those adaptations haven’t, don’t and never will fit

well with 99% of people.

You’ve inspired insights in me and for me to articulate these ideas in ways I

never have before. Thank you for your contributions. I’m confident that

others’ valuable posts have also primed the pump for me to get to this place.

Thank you all.