Re: nada update

[Guest guest]

--- " " <kthielen@k...> wrote:

> Now that I am reading about BPD, and becoming aware of how sick

> she really is. I mean I would say that everytime I go around her

> and the bizarre things would come out of her mouth, but then I

> forget.

>

> You know, I literally, forget a week later if I don't write it

> down. WHat is that? Does anyone else do that?

I think most of us KOs have experienced our psyches protecting us from

a reality that was too painful to process. Sometimes we " forget "

(actually repress) impossible-seeming or unbearably-painful memories,

or sometimes we remember the facts but repress our feelings about

them. When I first started with my therpist I think I shocked her by

describing the most horrific, soul-destroying experiences in a calm,

rational, detached and very intellectual way.

This might be a pattern that began when you were a child and it was

the only way you could live with your nada and not go completely crazy

yourself. I expect that as you continue to educate yourself about BP,

and are able to normalize your experiences by understanding them and

sharing them with us, you'll find that this improves. If you can call

remembering all the " crazy nada assertions " an improvement, that is!

But you may also find that as you stop forgetting the crazy things

your mom is saying, you will realise that they are causing you even

more distress than you are consciously aware of right now. I fear

this may be connected to your position of material dependence on her.

It's a horrible thing, to be dependent on, and therefore vulnerable

to, someone who's irrational and thus unreliable and unpredictable.

Could it be that some part of your brain is protecting you from the

sheer awful uncertainty of that?

The REAL truth is that you are actually MUCH safer now than when you

didn't know about your mom's BP. You have supports and resources and

options that you didn't have before, both for dealing with her and for

taking care of yourself and your own family.

Hugs,

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

You wrote: You know, I literally, forget a week later

if I don't write it down. WHat is that? Does anyone

else do that?

, with everything that you wrote, forgetting is a

blessing and a survival skill! It would be wonderful

if we all could permanently forget our nadas and

everything they ever did to us and be truly free!

Zap my brain pleeeeassee!

Hugs,

Lula

____________________________________________________

Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Guest guest]

> hello everyone,

>

> I still have not responded to my BP Mom (still can't call her nada

very easily I guess).

****Don't worry about this. You don't have to call her nada at all.

Just figure out what you need to do to work through all of this. I

used to use nada all the time. Now I sometimes use the word mother.

I won't question myself on this....it is what is happening naturally

for me, and I'm willing to go with that.

Have been reading SWOE, which is helpful. Brings up more memories,

but I am trying to focus on what I can do now. In a way, it makes me

feel like I am being mean to her because she is sick,

****She is sick - but being nice to her won't help her get better.

Most of our guilt is a carryover from when we believed that we really

were responsible for our parent's unhappiness. We should not feel

guilty for taking care of ourselves or for removing ourselves from an

abusive situation!

and I am ignoring her without explaining to her what I am upset

about. Right now, I feel like that is what I need to do in order to

take care of me though.

****You don't need to explain it to her. She knows. Her

rationalization, projection, etc, cannot completed cover up even in

her mind what is happening. I believe she knows because of how she

treated your daughter and that your daughter left and went home to

you. She just doesn't know how to cover it up, or twist it into

something else....but with enough time, she will be able to do this.

I hope this is not too harsh for you. I know she is your mother, and

you may feel protective of her as you hear someone else criticize

her. I am basing my thoughts on similar situations I had with my own

nada.

> I placed the ASSERTIVE BILL OF RIGHTS on my fridge, I like that.

I'm going to share it with the whole family.

>

> Day before yesterday, nada sent 2 emails, acting like nothing, all

about money and reminding me of things I need to do.

****sounds like she is trying to reconnect without dealing with the

problem. This is typical too. If she can restore everything to the

previous relationship, she will be happy - you and your daughter will

not, and both of you will probably feel invalidated.

I felt a complete invasion of my privacy. But, she owns my house,

and this remodel is not 100% complete, and she is my landlord, and

needs to pay for 1 or 2 of the things she was asking me about, so I

have to respond and interact to a certain point. She asked me a

bunch of questions said to me " I'm trying to eliminate unneccary

costs " . I didn't want to respond at all, so instead I just

said, " do what you need to do " .

****Good way to handle the situation. Do the minimum that you need

to do in dealing with your 'landlord'.

>

> I feel this whole thing started a couple of weeks ago, when I told

her I had decided not to allow her to purchase a brand new computer

for my children. I sent her detailed letter. She was going to buy

him a desk for his bedroom. Last weekend, he found a desk at a yard

sale for $5, and he set it all up and really likes it. He was all

excited about it, and asked if he could call her up to tell her about

it. The next day I asked how it went (bc my kids have not been

having contact w/her either). He was not on the phone very long at

all. He told me she didn't say much at all, only that 'if I would

still let her, she was willing to buy them both computers for there

rooms.'.........Of course he wants a computer in his room very badly,

but he isn't going to say so. It's like he is in the middle between

some kind of power struggle between me and my BP mom. Maybe I should

just let her buy the damned computers? I don't know. I never know.

I just feel like my life is not in my control.

****You can take steps to feel more in control. It is difficult when

you want things for your children, and you mother is so willing to

provide things. However, there are usually strings attached, and you

mother may in the future want to start yanking those strings! This

is another case of doing what you think is the best for you and your

children (not what is best for your mother).

As you start to figure out where you want to go with your mother in a

new relationship (contact, no contact, partial contact), you can

start guiding your children as well into a new relationship. All of

you have the right to protect and take care of yourselves and not be

abused by her. Being your mother and their grandmother DOES NOT give

her the right to abuse you!

>

> Yesterday she came by to pick up her weedeater and I did not want

to see or talk to her. Dh went outside, and he told me that she

thought we were mad at her bc she had a drink (?) at the reception.

He said he told her that she cannot talk to dd the way that she did,

and that she acted all confused.

****She may have already changed in her mind the memory of the

interaction between her and your daughter. I think someone with BPD

can do this very quickly. They are so upset over what happened, but

cannot handle the fact that they had any responsibility - so in a

blink of an eye, in their mind, the situation gets changed so they

can deal with it - usually by blaming someone else's actions as the

cause of the incident.

I wish I could've heard the conversation so I knew exactly what was

said. Oh, I don't even know what it matters. I already knew she

would deny it. He said she was acting like a victim.

****Yep, they can play the victim role so very, very well. I know

they believe it, but I still think that most with BPD get at least an

occasional glimpse of the truth of some situations.

So, at least now she knows I am staying away from her because of her

treatment of my daughter.

>

> I was afraid to send her a letter or anything, because in the past

when I have done this, it has opened me up for an attack from her.

And, I just don't want to deal with her insanity right now. I think

eventually I will get to a point where I feel strong enough to deal

with this. My daughter seems disappointed that I haven't said

something though. At first she didn't want me to go and talk to her

Grandnada, because she was afraid we'd get into a fight, now, she is

upset bc I haven't talked to her.

****Is your daughter old enough to understand an explanation that

tells her that you are taking time to think about how to handle this

situation, as you know it will be a big change in your relationsip

with her grandmother, and you think you should take time to make sure

you are doing the right thing?

>

> I don't want to talk to, see her, or have any contact with her at

all. But, at the same time I miss her a lot (* & *%#@?!), and feel

like I am hurting her or making her angry by doing what I need to do

to take care of myself and my kids.

*****You may be 'hurting' her and making her angry. BUT - ask if you

think is is reasonable for someone, especially a grandmother, to be

hurt and angry when someone is taking care of and protecting her

grandchildren. What about the hurt she did to your daughter? See -

we were really brainwashed into just considering the 'hurt' our BP

parent experienced, while the hurt they placed on others (even

ourselves) was ignored. If a reasonable and normal family member

treats someone badly, they will go and apologize to that person.

They will be concerned and upset that they hurt someone else. A

person with BPD cannot empathize, and so all they focus on is their

own hurt - and look to blame someone.

It's only been less than 2 weeks. This does not seem normal to me.

Is it normal for a 41 year old woman with a life of her own to 'miss

her abusive invalidating Mommy' who just verbally attacked her 12

year old daughter in such an awful way?

****It can be normal. You are just starting to deal with these

issues. You have had years of conditioning where you accepted that

what your mother did was okay, and you probably were willing to

accept it to keep a relationship with her. I did something very

similar.

There is something wrong with me. I do not feel normal.

****What you are feeling is normal - for the situation you are in!

You are probably sad and upset because of how your daughter was

treated. You are dealing with conflicting emotions regarding how you

feel about your mother. You have financial and medical issues to

deal with. Don't you think this is a great deal of problems to have

to handle at one time?

I mean, this is pathetic.

****The only thing that may be pathetic is the fact that you did not

have a mother who loved you unconditionally and helped you grow and

develop, instead of making you her caretaker. I think you are being

too hard on yourself.

Which is why I am trying to talk to a therapist or something, but

that isn't very hopeful either. because the only place I can go here

is this one place where they take medicare. I made a bunch of phone

calls yesterday

>

> I was thinking of finding a therapist to help me, but I don't want

to go back to the place I left a year ago, bc I feel I went as far as

I could with what they had to offer. I had the head therapist

(leader of DBT team)-for years, and she was well informed of my

situation and never clued me in that I was dealing with a BP Mom - I

guess she never recognized the fact. But, I was reading SWOE about

1 year ago, and the light bulb went off. I had read about BPD

before, because I have studied many personality disorders and other

(most) mental illnesses out of a passionate interest due to family

history I guess (I am also a genealogist), but I had just not

connected any to nada. I don't know why I didn't except that she is

the High functioning BP, and I've bought into the illusion that she

is well, even though I've been profoundly affected by her illness and

abusive behavior. Her faky public persona literally makes my stomach

turn. I can't hardly stand to be around her because of this facet.

I can tell on the telephone if she has company by the tone in her

voice. Yuk!

*****Many of us on this list have written about experience strong

physical aversions to being around our BP parent. These are signals

our body is sending to us, and we have to listen to them. Our BP

parent has driven much of our natural and normal instincts out of us -

but our body still warns us that all is not well.

>

> Right now I am realizing how much I disacossiate in her presence,

or used to anyway. Check this out, me and the kids used to go to my

parents house for dinner almost every night (my stepdad is a

wonderful cook). Within the last 2 years sometime, this has become

painful for me. I would literally feel sick at the dinner table and

could feel myself disacciating, and would have to get up and leave

the room, because I could not deal with the interactions at the table

(my parents with my children). It felt like I was dreaming. Isn't

that weird.

****Not weird at all. This is probably how you reacted as a child as

well....there was no way to get away from her physically, so you

disassociated in order to get away. I did the very same thing. This

was a big factor in my decision to finally go no contact. I could no

longer deal with the disassociation and physical reactions I had when

i was with my nada. I had worked very hard to get over fleas and

make a good life for myself, and I didn't want to give my nada even a

few hours where I would revert to this other behavior.

So, I began to learn how to cook, and we started to have dinner at

home, and at first that was hard, because I barely knew how to cook,

but now we rarely eat over there, and I enjoy cooking, and we love

having meals at home, and I can't believe I did that all those

years. Oh my God, I can't believe it!

****Again - most of us have felt the same about certain situations.

When we finally start to see our past with our BP parent in the light

of how their illness has affected our life, we are surprised, to say

the least.

> I think she is really unhappy over this change, and may be part of

her increased efforts at manipulation and control of me.

****Yes - everytime we make a change, someone with BP can very easily

feel threatened, and she will make efforts to get us to return to our

previous actions.

Now that I am reading about BPD, and becoming aware of how sick she

really is. I mean I would say that everytime I go around her and the

bizarre things would come out of her mouth, but then I forget.

>

> You know, I literally, forget a week later if I don't write it

down. WHat is that? Does anyone else do that?

>

****Just a thought, cause this has also happened to me. I was

conditioned to just accept my nada's bizarre behavior and

statements. Also, some things were hurtful and painful, and so i

wanted to forget them. It is probably one of our coping mechanisms.

Hope you are feeling a bit better by the time you read this

response. Take care,

Sylvia

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

You asked,

>>>>>You know, I literally, forget a week later if I don't write it down. What

is that? Does anyone else do that?

>>>>

I believe that for some of us it is a survival technique. In my situation, Nada

has always " minimized " the situations that would come up, sometimes going so far

as to try and convince me that it would be my imagination or that I'm too

sensitive. (yuck) and then go into this victim mode she has down pat... It seems

that to get through this sort of junk some of us tend to " let it slide " out of

memory, because it's became easier over many years to do this, than to confront

them. My Nada's memory changes from one heart beat to the next. I always felt

out of the loop and would question myself on what I thought was going on, HUH!

wonder why??!! lol

I came across some of my old journals that I've kept over the years and as I

read through them it occured to me how 99% of them were filled with pain. From

being a victim to a BPD person. Over half of the stories I had forgotten,

stories of Nada hijinks that caused great pain and my attempts to understand

and finally my surrender to her....(this is all before I learned about BPD) I

also have two siblings with BPD as well, so I can really understand my

surrendering!

What struck me was how much of it I had dealt with, how much hurt I had been in,

my attempts to " fix " these things and how I had to " forget " just to continue

having them in my life.

After learning about BPD, I went back to these journals and re read them and

allowed myself to be angry. NO forgetting this time! I allowed myself to face

the facts and the part I, unknowingly, played in allowing them to do this to me.

I took away their power over me.

It's been since Jan. 6th of 2000 since I've been around those unhealthy people.

I care about them but over time, the feelings of FOG have lifted. I'm out from

under that thumb.

FOG is fear, obligation and guilt.

SWOE and UNDERSTANDING THE BORDERLINE MOTHER, are two books I have on my shelf

that are getting worn out, but were and still are, a god send to me. Those books

helped me put things in order, helped me understand not only where they are in

all of this, but where I stand as well. I now KNOW, that I have the power over

what I will allow into my life because there isn't anyone on this entire planet

who knows me as well as I do, I can take care of me best.

Your at the beginning of this , I can really understand you feelings about

missing your mother, Its a hard time for us all. For me it was the realization

that the mother I missed was the dream one I had carried around with me wrapped

up in all my hopes. When I started facing the facts and the truth of her

condition, those hopes fell away and the dream mother was gone. That was what

caused me to hurt, the healthy letting go.

Give yourself all the time you need, . You have a husband who is standing

beside you in this and this list to come to when that darn self doubt rears it's

ugly head. Take care of you!...

Warm thoughts to you,

wrote:

hello everyone,

I still have not responded to my BP Mom (still can't call her nada very easily I

guess). Have been reading SWOE, which is helpful. Brings up more memories, but

I am trying to focus on what I can do now. In a way, it makes me feel like I am

being mean to her because she is sick, and I am ignoring her without explaining

to her what I am upset about. Right now, I feel like that is what I need to do

in order to take care of me though.

I placed the ASSERTIVE BILL OF RIGHTS on my fridge, I like that. I'm going to

share it with the whole family.

Day before yesterday, nada sent 2 emails, acting like nothing, all about money

and reminding me of things I need to do. I felt a complete invasion of my

privacy. But, she owns my house, and this remodel is not 100% complete, and she

is my landlord, and needs to pay for 1 or 2 of the things she was asking me

about, so I have to respond and interact to a certain point. She asked me a

bunch of questions said to me " I'm trying to eliminate unneccary costs " . I

didn't want to respond at all, so instead I just said, " do what you need to do " .

I feel this whole thing started a couple of weeks ago, when I told her I had

decided not to allow her to purchase a brand new computer for my children. I

sent her detailed letter. She was going to buy him a desk for his bedroom.

Last weekend, he found a desk at a yard sale for $5, and he set it all up and

really likes it. He was all excited about it, and asked if he could call her up

to tell her about it. The next day I asked how it went (bc my kids have not

been having contact w/her either). He was not on the phone very long at all.

He told me she didn't say much at all, only that 'if I would still let her, she

was willing to buy them both computers for there rooms.'.........Of course he

wants a computer in his room very badly, but he isn't going to say so. It's

like he is in the middle between some kind of power struggle between me and my

BP mom. Maybe I should just let her buy the damned computers? I don't know. I

never know. I just feel like my life is not in my

control.

Yesterday she came by to pick up her weedeater and I did not want to see or talk

to her. Dh went outside, and he told me that she thought we were mad at her bc

she had a drink (?) at the reception. He said he told her that she cannot talk

to dd the way that she did, and that she acted all confused. I wish I could've

heard the conversation so I knew exactly what was said. Oh, I don't even know

what it matters. I already knew she would deny it. He said she was acting like

a victim. So, at least now she knows I am staying away from her because of her

treatment of my daughter.

I was afraid to send her a letter or anything, because in the past when I have

done this, it has opened me up for an attack from her. And, I just don't want

to deal with her insanity right now. I think eventually I will get to a point

where I feel strong enough to deal with this. My daughter seems disappointed

that I haven't said something though. At first she didn't want me to go and

talk to her Grandnada, because she was afraid we'd get into a fight, now, she is

upset bc I haven't talked to her.

I don't want to talk to, see her, or have any contact with her at all. But, at

the same time I miss her a lot (* & *%#@?!), and feel like I am hurting her or

making her angry by doing what I need to do to take care of myself and my kids.

It's only been less than 2 weeks. This does not seem normal to me. Is it

normal for a 41 year old woman with a life of her own to 'miss her abusive

invalidating Mommy' who just verbally attacked her 12 year old daughter in such

an awful way? There is something wrong with me. I do not feel normal. I mean,

this is pathetic. Which is why I am trying to talk to a therapist or something,

but that isn't very hopeful either. because the only place I can go here is

this one place where they take medicare. I made a bunch of phone calls

yesterday

I was thinking of finding a therapist to help me, but I don't want to go back to

the place I left a year ago, bc I feel I went as far as I could with what they

had to offer. I had the head therapist (leader of DBT team)-for years, and she

was well informed of my situation and never clued me in that I was dealing with

a BP Mom - I guess she never recognized the fact. But, I was reading SWOE

about 1 year ago, and the light bulb went off. I had read about BPD before,

because I have studied many personality disorders and other (most) mental

illnesses out of a passionate interest due to family history I guess (I am also

a genealogist), but I had just not connected any to nada. I don't know why I

didn't except that she is the High functioning BP, and I've bought into the

illusion that she is well, even though I've been profoundly affected by her

illness and abusive behavior. Her faky public persona literally makes my

stomach turn. I can't hardly stand to be around her because of

this facet. I can tell on the telephone if she has company by the tone in her

voice. Yuk!

Right now I am realizing how much I disacossiate in her presence, or used to

anyway. Check this out, me and the kids used to go to my parents house for

dinner almost every night (my stepdad is a wonderful cook). Within the last 2

years sometime, this has become painful for me. I would literally feel sick at

the dinner table and could feel myself disacciating, and would have to get up

and leave the room, because I could not deal with the interactions at the table

(my parents with my children). It felt like I was dreaming. Isn't that weird.

So, I began to learn how to cook, and we started to have dinner at home, and at

first that was hard, because I barely knew how to cook, but now we rarely eat

over there, and I enjoy cooking, and we love having meals at home, and I can't

believe I did that all those years. Oh my God, I can't believe it!

I think she is really unhappy over this change, and may be part of her increased

efforts at manipulation and control of me. Now that I am reading about BPD, and

becoming aware of how sick she really is. I mean I would say that everytime I

go around her and the bizarre things would come out of her mouth, but then I

forget.

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

Thanks for sharing all of this. I'm sure many people who read it

will feel better because you had the courage to share this part of

your story so frankly on such a deep personal level.

It strikes me that so many of us KOs have had the experience of

being labelled " mentally ill " when what we actually are is " mentally

wounded " . (And WHY is that medicine makes that distinction in terms

of physical illness vs injury but not for mental illness vs injury

anyway?)

But now you know, and your healing process is progressing

amazingly. I see so much development of your insight and

understanding in just the short time since you joined the list.

It is absolutely normal to be totally overwhelmed with grief during

this part of your journey. It is an unavoidable part of

healing...letting our dreams of ever having " real mothers " die.

I think that for both of us, this is especially hard because our

nadas were so high-functioning in the outside world, and that makes

it hard to get our heads around how messed up they were in their

family lives.

But you are facing this with great courage. I am so proud of you!

Hugs,

--- " " <kthielen@k...> wrote:

> Hi ,

> I didn't get a chance to respond to your last note to me

previously & I had

> wanted to.

> I was in therapy for years, and also experienced this form of

detachment

> from my emotions thing you describe for years (not true any

longer, although

> I still can I think) in early sobriety (my sponsors made me do 4th

steps

> over because I did not cry), in therapy, etc.,. Today, I am

feeling all

> the emotions, including some anger over the fact that my therapist

never

> clued in to the fact that my nada had a BPD. I was in therapy

for years,

> trying to get help for muself, to figure out what was wrong with

me so I

> could get better at doing life, and the primary topic was often my

struggle

> with this over dependent enmeshed and abusive relationship with

nada. My

> therapist was the head counselor of the DBT team. After 5 years

of therapy,

> I think they pretty much decided the only way they could help me

was through

> DBT, essentially labeling me as BP (because yes, I admitted I had

traits of

> BP), without coming out and saying so, if you will. But, I

absolutely

> refused to allow them to diagnosed me BPD. And, when I tried the

DBT group

> the first time, I quit after a few weeks, because I knew I did not

belong

> there (I did not identify with the others in there at all). My

actual

> diagnosis is Bipolar depression (I don't even know if that is

correct now,

> but I do know that I have had recurrent episodes of depression,

particularly

> having to do with hormones - giving birth, and the antidepressants

I was put

> on made me worse in many ways.). For years I believed I

was " crazy " ,

> " mentall ill " , and searched for what my problem was so I could

start to live

> in the solution. Well, why wouldn't I believe this, this is what

nada told

> me ever time I expressed an emotion with her, or said something

that

> disagreed with her version of reality (she would scream at me or

look at me

> in disgust and say " you are crazy " ), this is frightening to a

child. This

> is what happened in me in my adolescence. I didn't believe her, I

believed

> it was her not me (so I thought). But, I now realize that this

parental

> mirroring had an effect upon me whether I realized it or not (like

> brainwashing). I eventually got to a place where I did the DBT

course

> because I realized that was my therapists forte, and I may as well

take

> advantage of it, it really didn't matter whether I had BP or not,

the point

> was was that I was willing to change and to grow, and to pick up

new life

> skills wherever I could find them. Who was right and who was

wrong was

> beside the point. So, I did and took what I could from it. But,

> unfortunately with the treatment team there everthing did turn out

to be a

> power struggle with them. I completed the year of DBT, and then

they

> interceded and attempted not to acknowledge I had completed it or

give me my

> " diploma " in group. It was quite sick. I think the other group

members

> were unhappy with there power tactic control methods as well, as

far as I

> could tell. It was reminiscent of growing up in the land of OZ if

you ask

> me. All very triggering. Which btw, is what led me to realize

and become

> aware that my BP mother had BPD at all.

> After one year of DBT and these power struggles with this TX team

was

> engaging in, I became aware that my Mother had BPD, that was one

year ago.

>

> The point being, that it angers me that I could be in therapy for

so long to

> get help for myself on my own accord, be completely honest with

these so

> called professionals (spefically trained to treat BPD), and they

did not

> even clue in to the fact that my nada had BPD!!!!!#$%#@Oolh.

>

> I look at my life, and I realize I have been surrounded by people

with or

> affected by this disorder throughout. Today, I run from people

who seem to

> have it, in order to protect myself. I want to learn how to set

healthy

> boundaries instead. Avoidance, isolating, as it says in SWOE fear

and

> anxiety is not the same as helplessness (yea!). I have felt

helpless and

> hopeless for too long. I have been trying to get help and found

none. I

> have found more help in this group just by reading everybody's

situations

> and identying and getting honest feedback and validation from all

of you,

> than I got from nearly a decade of therapy.

>

> Yesterday I bought the SWOE workbook and began that. I am

desperate to do

> what I can to change what I can so my life can improve. I've

known for a

> very long time I can't change anyone else. But, I have felt

trapped, stuck,

> and helpless and hopeless. Not knowing what else to do. SWOE

said

> avoidance is also taking an action (I hadn't thought of it like

that), and

> this action has been making me ill - that's what I have beeen

doing for

> years. Until quite recently, I've begun taking actions which make

me feel

> like a mean person as someone said (but I am actually setting

healthy

> boundaries, and taking responsibility for me, for the first time,

I think).

> It's empowering, but frightening at the same time.

>

> wrote:

> > It's a horrible thing, to be dependent on, and therefore

vulnerable

> > to, someone who's irrational and thus unreliable and

unpredictable.

>

> Yes, that is what I am in the process of realizing - I have been

taking time

> to allow this to really sink in. I've never really done this

before.

> Sometimes the grief overwhelms me.

>

> It's like this, I had to explain it to my son last night. He was

irritated

> with me for saying " is that really happening " about something I

percieved,

> which I am aware that I do quite often.

> This was the example that I gave to him, which helped him to truly

> understand why I doubt my own perceptions so much. When you grow

up and you

> are a little kid, and every day you wake up excited and happy and

thrilled

> to be alive, and you say " Look Mommy today the sky is blue " , and

in response

> to your observation your are told " no, , the sky is not blue

(even

> though you can see clearly that it is), the sky is grey " , or you

wake up and

> you say " Mommy I feel sad today " , and you are told, " you aren't

sad, you are

> happy, and everything is fine " , for example, maybe? And, the

other parent

> (Dad), is absolutely unavailable as a mirror at all (you can't

even get his

> attention), but you try desparetely anyway. The message you get

growing up

> is

> I do not exist

> I am unimportant

> what I think, feel, and want is not important and real

>

> I believed I had a perfect childhood until I was 25 years old. In

> otherwords I believed the lie presented to me, that I was

brainwashed and

> programmed to believe. My nada was so good at pretending and

faking that

> not even she could convince me it was all a lie, when she decided

it was

> over. I clung to the fantasy she had presented, the false

reality, false

> family, false father, false mother, all images and not reality,

etc., When I

> was 25, the image began to crack.

>

> But, I think I will always need to double check my own perceptions

of

> reality from time to time. And, I can accept this without judging

me.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > --- " " <kthielen@k...> wrote:

> >> Now that I am reading about BPD, and becoming aware of how sick

> >> she really is. I mean I would say that everytime I go around

her

> >> and the bizarre things would come out of her mouth, but then I

> >> forget.

> >>

> >> You know, I literally, forget a week later if I don't write it

> >> down. WHat is that? Does anyone else do that?

> >

>

> wrote:

> > I think most of us KOs have experienced our psyches protecting

us from

> > a reality that was too painful to process. Sometimes we " forget "

> > (actually repress) impossible-seeming or unbearably-painful

memories,

> > or sometimes we remember the facts but repress our feelings about

> > them. When I first started with my therpist I think I shocked

her by

> > describing the most horrific, soul-destroying experiences in a

calm,

> > rational, detached and very intellectual way.

> >

> > This might be a pattern that began when you were a child and it

was

> > the only way you could live with your nada and not go completely

crazy

> > yourself. I expect that as you continue to educate yourself

about BP,

> > and are able to normalize your experiences by understanding them

and

> > sharing them with us, you'll find that this improves. If you

can call

> > remembering all the " crazy nada assertions " an improvement, that

is!

> >

> > But you may also find that as you stop forgetting the crazy

things

> > your mom is saying, you will realise that they are causing you

even

> > more distress than you are consciously aware of right now. I

fear

> > this may be connected to your position of material dependence on

her.

> > Could it be that some part of your brain is protecting you from

the

> > sheer awful uncertainty of that?

> >

> > The REAL truth is that you are actually MUCH safer now than when

you

> > didn't know about your mom's BP. You have supports and

resources and

> > options that you didn't have before, both for dealing with her

and for

> > taking care of yourself and your own family.

> >

> > Hugs,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

> > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be

ordered via

> > 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go

to:

> > http://www.BPDCentral.com

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

,

I don't often find myself in the position of saying - screX the

therapy - but that is where I find myself when reading about your

experiences.

From what I read, you are a very intelligent and insightful person.

And it is to your credit that you recognize that in yourself. And I

can see where that has made it difficult to deal with people who are

both NOT intelligent and insightful, but who ARE in positions to

affect your life. I am so glad that you were able to recognize the

truth in the situations you were in. You are an example of one of my

favorite quotations:

" This above all: To thine own self be true and it must follow as the

night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man. "

Shakespeare

In regard to acceptance - I have come to understand it as what needs

to be done before I can make a real change in my situation. I had to

accept that I was abused as a child before I could make the change to

protecting myself from further abuse. Until I 'accepted' what

happened, I was still trying to turn the nightmare into a pleasant

dream, and I couldn't do that - because I wasn't being true to

myself!

Perhaps your experience reflects that the acceptance of the bipolar

diagnosis wasn't right because that wasn't the problem you were

really dealing with? Our heart of hearts seems to know, even when

our mind - and everyone else - says differently.

Your story is a remarkable one. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Sylvia

> Hi ,

> Thank you for all of your loving support and I really appreciate

your

> insight & wisdom.

> Your nada & mine seem to be a lot alike.

>

> Have other KO's really had similar experiences? Because for some

reason I

> feel like I am the only one. And, I feel a lot of fear, doubt,

anger, (and

> possibly shame), around this. My 12 step program, teaches me that

> " acceptance it the answer to all my problems " (which, btw, I

disagree with

> now, because some things should not be accepted maybe), so when I

was

> diagnosed with Bipolar disorder, the solution to me, seemed to be

simply one

> of acceptance, and start living in the solution. But, reality

turned out

> not to be so simple. That was 7 years ago, and I have now come to

the

> conclusion, that I may not have any " disorder " whatever (except

that I am a

> recovery alcoholic, and I have a history of

depression/anxiety/PMS), that I

> do not have to accept any label. I am doing better today, on less

> medication and with no therapist, than I've done in much of life,

finally,

> and I think it is from self -empowerment. Not allowing others,

whether it

> is my Mother (nada), my boyfriend, friends, sponsors, or the mental

health

> system, to define my reality for me and dictate what I need. I

have had a

> tendency to trust others, to look for those others for answers to

my

> problems & life, and accept what is mirrored back at me as fact

(childish),

> not taking responsibility for my life, expecting others to do for

me what I

> should do for myself. I am not beating myself up for that, it's

just what

> it is. Seeing it is the first step in changing it.

> I have finally been learning how to care for myself, and

taking

> responsibility for myself for the first time, through empowering

myself, by

> taking my own power and identifying what my needs and wants are. I

really

> like the SWOE workbook, because it is going to help me in this area

a lot,

> it's excellent so far.

> It has been very hard to do this, because I have been groomed to be

> dependent upon others since birth. I am highly intelligent and

emotionally

> sensitive (both traits of the gifted I have recently learned), so

my mind

> automatically searches for solutions and sees incongruencies. I

have a

> difficult time with injustice, and find it to be a highly

emotionally

> charged experience. But, I also look for solutions in such

situations, this

> is my nature. And, what I have found, is that many other people,

> particularly those in what is percieved to be authoritative

positions (such

> as a treatement team, one example), are not conducive to such

suggestions,

> no matter how gently they come. All people come with there own

issues. I

> have always been a hopeful, foolish optimist, very naive, and

highly

> sensitive person.

> I've become very hurt due to my inherent nature, and now I tend to

isolate

> because of it. But, I am learning (late), some things I probably

should've

> learned about the world in adolescence, and that is that not all

people are

> nice or trustworthy.

> What I percieve as an asset, is perceivced as a liability in

certain

> situations. And, this seems to be what happened with my DBT

experience (I

> was somewhat scapegoated by some of the therapists on the team who

had me

> stigmatized and labeled and misidentified by their own biases and

judgements

> & I was highly aware of it, but at the same time unable to do

anything about

> it). Extremely painful situation for me, especially considering

the fact,

> that I had accomplished so much personal growth in my life under

much

> duress, and had not given up (this is the period when I empowered

myself

> from being labeled as " mentally ill " to being a consumer/survivor

in

> recovery, self-empowering myself and bucking the system - the best

thing I

> could've done for myself, and key to my recovery, because I was

dying

> psychologically & emotionally prior to this), and I did it for me

(sheer

> survival) and no one else, and they were now refusing to

acknowledge my

> personal accomplishment, as they had all the other group members.

No big

> deal (this is how I have always acted though, see?). So, instead

of doing

> that, I mustered the courage to say something instead, to take

> responsibility for my thoughts and feelings. It didn't change

anything

> though. It was already a fact. The fact being that this Mental

Health tx

> team had basicly treated me in the same manner my nada had treated

me much

> of my life. The feelings I experienced were so reminiscent!

> It seemed like they were BPD, not I. They were all so

controlling of

> me. I was learning all of the skills so quickly and easily,

because I

> already used many of them. My problem was that I had been affected

by many

> people who have personality disorders in my own life, including

BPD, NPD,

> and APD (family, friends, boyfriends). No one was recognizing this

fact,

> except for me. They talked about invalidating environments all the

time in

> DBT, while providing one for me, which triggered me, because I was

raised by

> a nada & fada, who were both invalidating, and not capable of

mirroring

> properly.

> Now I know this must've been what my Higher Power wanted me to

find out,

> because this is what my experience was that led me to discover that

my

> Mother had a personality disorder (which I could not see until all

of this

> happened in therapy, this is what it took, this was the end

result). Yes,

> after one year, and all of that work, and the final result was that

they did

> not recognize my accomplishment of completing DBT, that was when

something

> clicked. It was all very painful.

> So, I was then reading SWOE, and that's when it hit me like a

ton of

> bricks, that my Mom fit nearly all the criteria of BPD, some of

them very

> strongly. I could not believe I hadn't noticed before. It was so

weird, I

> could barely believe it.

> My new therapist barely acknowledged my discovery that my

mother had BPD

> or the fact that she had screwed up (she somehow turned it around

and made

> it my fault?)........so I quit therapy, and said this isn't going

to work

> for me anymore. That was almost a year ago. That was the

beginning of my

> real recovery, I think, one defined by self-empowerment.

>

......

[Guest guest]

: Listen to Sylvia! Being a KO is a huge piece of the puzzle;

we're talking massive, ongoing trauma here. I don't think there's

any way your clinical picture could be remotely accurate without

taking this, and the inevitable resulting complex PTSD symptoms,

fully into account.

Sylvia: This is a wonderful response. I so admire the way you " cut

to the chase " and say what needs to be said in such a clear, loving,

and helpful way. (I want to be you when I grow up!)

Hugs,

--- " smhtrain2 " <smhtrain2@y...> wrote:

> ,

>

> I don't often find myself in the position of saying - screX the

> therapy - but that is where I find myself when reading about your

> experiences.

>

> From what I read, you are a very intelligent and insightful

person.

> And it is to your credit that you recognize that in yourself. And

I

> can see where that has made it difficult to deal with people who

are

> both NOT intelligent and insightful, but who ARE in positions to

> affect your life. I am so glad that you were able to recognize the

> truth in the situations you were in. You are an example of one of

my

> favorite quotations:

>

> " This above all: To thine own self be true and it must follow as the

> night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man. "

> Shakespeare

>

> In regard to acceptance - I have come to understand it as what

needs

> to be done before I can make a real change in my situation. I had

to

> accept that I was abused as a child before I could make the change

to

> protecting myself from further abuse. Until I 'accepted' what

> happened, I was still trying to turn the nightmare into a pleasant

> dream, and I couldn't do that - because I wasn't being true to

> myself!

>

> Perhaps your experience reflects that the acceptance of the bipolar

> diagnosis wasn't right because that wasn't the problem you were

> really dealing with? Our heart of hearts seems to know, even when

> our mind - and everyone else - says differently.

>

> Your story is a remarkable one. Thanks for sharing it with us.

>

> Sylvia

>

>

>

>

> > Hi ,

> > Thank you for all of your loving support and I really appreciate

> your

> > insight & wisdom.

> > Your nada & mine seem to be a lot alike.

> >

> > Have other KO's really had similar experiences? Because for some

> reason I

> > feel like I am the only one. And, I feel a lot of fear, doubt,

> anger, (and

> > possibly shame), around this. My 12 step program, teaches me

that

> > " acceptance it the answer to all my problems " (which, btw, I

> disagree with

> > now, because some things should not be accepted maybe), so when I

> was

> > diagnosed with Bipolar disorder, the solution to me, seemed to be

> simply one

> > of acceptance, and start living in the solution. But, reality

> turned out

> > not to be so simple. That was 7 years ago, and I have now come

to

> the

> > conclusion, that I may not have any " disorder " whatever (except

> that I am a

> > recovery alcoholic, and I have a history of

> depression/anxiety/PMS), that I

> > do not have to accept any label. I am doing better today, on

less

> > medication and with no therapist, than I've done in much of life,

> finally,

> > and I think it is from self -empowerment. Not allowing others,

> whether it

> > is my Mother (nada), my boyfriend, friends, sponsors, or the

mental

> health

> > system, to define my reality for me and dictate what I need. I

> have had a

> > tendency to trust others, to look for those others for answers to

> my

> > problems & life, and accept what is mirrored back at me as fact

> (childish),

> > not taking responsibility for my life, expecting others to do for

> me what I

> > should do for myself. I am not beating myself up for that, it's

> just what

> > it is. Seeing it is the first step in changing it.

> > I have finally been learning how to care for myself, and

> taking

> > responsibility for myself for the first time, through empowering

> myself, by

> > taking my own power and identifying what my needs and wants are.

I

> really

> > like the SWOE workbook, because it is going to help me in this

area

> a lot,

> > it's excellent so far.

> > It has been very hard to do this, because I have been groomed to

be

> > dependent upon others since birth. I am highly intelligent and

> emotionally

> > sensitive (both traits of the gifted I have recently learned), so

> my mind

> > automatically searches for solutions and sees incongruencies. I

> have a

> > difficult time with injustice, and find it to be a highly

> emotionally

> > charged experience. But, I also look for solutions in such

> situations, this

> > is my nature. And, what I have found, is that many other people,

> > particularly those in what is percieved to be authoritative

> positions (such

> > as a treatement team, one example), are not conducive to such

> suggestions,

> > no matter how gently they come. All people come with there own

> issues. I

> > have always been a hopeful, foolish optimist, very naive, and

> highly

> > sensitive person.

> > I've become very hurt due to my inherent nature, and now I tend

to

> isolate

> > because of it. But, I am learning (late), some things I probably

> should've

> > learned about the world in adolescence, and that is that not all

> people are

> > nice or trustworthy.

> > What I percieve as an asset, is perceivced as a liability in

> certain

> > situations. And, this seems to be what happened with my DBT

> experience (I

> > was somewhat scapegoated by some of the therapists on the team

who

> had me

> > stigmatized and labeled and misidentified by their own biases and

> judgements

> > & I was highly aware of it, but at the same time unable to do

> anything about

> > it). Extremely painful situation for me, especially considering

> the fact,

> > that I had accomplished so much personal growth in my life under

> much

> > duress, and had not given up (this is the period when I empowered

> myself

> > from being labeled as " mentally ill " to being a consumer/survivor

> in

> > recovery, self-empowering myself and bucking the system - the

best

> thing I

> > could've done for myself, and key to my recovery, because I was

> dying

> > psychologically & emotionally prior to this), and I did it for me

> (sheer

> > survival) and no one else, and they were now refusing to

> acknowledge my

> > personal accomplishment, as they had all the other group

members.

> No big

> > deal (this is how I have always acted though, see?). So, instead

> of doing

> > that, I mustered the courage to say something instead, to take

> > responsibility for my thoughts and feelings. It didn't change

> anything

> > though. It was already a fact. The fact being that this Mental

> Health tx

> > team had basicly treated me in the same manner my nada had

treated

> me much

> > of my life. The feelings I experienced were so reminiscent!

> > It seemed like they were BPD, not I. They were all so

> controlling of

> > me. I was learning all of the skills so quickly and easily,

> because I

> > already used many of them. My problem was that I had been

affected

> by many

> > people who have personality disorders in my own life, including

> BPD, NPD,

> > and APD (family, friends, boyfriends). No one was recognizing

this

> fact,

> > except for me. They talked about invalidating environments all

the

> time in

> > DBT, while providing one for me, which triggered me, because I

was

> raised by

> > a nada & fada, who were both invalidating, and not capable of

> mirroring

> > properly.

> > Now I know this must've been what my Higher Power wanted me

to

> find out,

> > because this is what my experience was that led me to discover

that

> my

> > Mother had a personality disorder (which I could not see until

all

> of this

> > happened in therapy, this is what it took, this was the end

> result). Yes,

> > after one year, and all of that work, and the final result was

that

> they did

> > not recognize my accomplishment of completing DBT, that was when

> something

> > clicked. It was all very painful.

> > So, I was then reading SWOE, and that's when it hit me like a

> ton of

> > bricks, that my Mom fit nearly all the criteria of BPD, some of

> them very

> > strongly. I could not believe I hadn't noticed before. It was

so

> weird, I

> > could barely believe it.

> > My new therapist barely acknowledged my discovery that my

> mother had BPD

> > or the fact that she had screwed up (she somehow turned it around

> and made

> > it my fault?)........so I quit therapy, and said this isn't going

> to work

> > for me anymore. That was almost a year ago. That was the

> beginning of my

> > real recovery, I think, one defined by self-empowerment.

> >

> .....

[Guest guest]

Hi again ,

Just wanted to add that you might find some validation and practical

help in Elaine Aron's book " The Highly Sensitive Person " . I think

you and I may be much alike in this respect...and it makes all

the " KO stuff " a double-whammy.

Hugs,

--- " " <kthielen@k...> wrote:

> Hi ,

> Thank you for all of your loving support and I really appreciate

your

> insight & wisdom.

> Your nada & mine seem to be a lot alike.

>

> Have other KO's really had similar experiences? Because for some

reason I

> feel like I am the only one. And, I feel a lot of fear, doubt,

anger, (and

> possibly shame), around this. My 12 step program, teaches me that

> " acceptance it the answer to all my problems " (which, btw, I

disagree with

> now, because some things should not be accepted maybe), so when I

was

> diagnosed with Bipolar disorder, the solution to me, seemed to be

simply one

> of acceptance, and start living in the solution. But, reality

turned out

> not to be so simple. That was 7 years ago, and I have now come to

the

> conclusion, that I may not have any " disorder " whatever (except

that I am a

> recovery alcoholic, and I have a history of

depression/anxiety/PMS), that I

> do not have to accept any label. I am doing better today, on less

> medication and with no therapist, than I've done in much of life,

finally,

> and I think it is from self -empowerment. Not allowing others,

whether it

> is my Mother (nada), my boyfriend, friends, sponsors, or the mental

health

> system, to define my reality for me and dictate what I need. I

have had a

> tendency to trust others, to look for those others for answers to

my

> problems & life, and accept what is mirrored back at me as fact

(childish),

> not taking responsibility for my life, expecting others to do for

me what I

> should do for myself. I am not beating myself up for that, it's

just what

> it is. Seeing it is the first step in changing it.

> I have finally been learning how to care for myself, and

taking

> responsibility for myself for the first time, through empowering

myself, by

> taking my own power and identifying what my needs and wants are. I

really

> like the SWOE workbook, because it is going to help me in this area

a lot,

> it's excellent so far.

> It has been very hard to do this, because I have been groomed to be

> dependent upon others since birth. I am highly intelligent and

emotionally

> sensitive (both traits of the gifted I have recently learned), so

my mind

> automatically searches for solutions and sees incongruencies. I

have a

> difficult time with injustice, and find it to be a highly

emotionally

> charged experience. But, I also look for solutions in such

situations, this

> is my nature. And, what I have found, is that many other people,

> particularly those in what is percieved to be authoritative

positions (such

> as a treatement team, one example), are not conducive to such

suggestions,

> no matter how gently they come. All people come with there own

issues. I

> have always been a hopeful, foolish optimist, very naive, and

highly

> sensitive person.

> I've become very hurt due to my inherent nature, and now I tend to

isolate

> because of it. But, I am learning (late), some things I probably

should've

> learned about the world in adolescence, and that is that not all

people are

> nice or trustworthy.

> What I percieve as an asset, is perceivced as a liability in

certain

> situations. And, this seems to be what happened with my DBT

experience (I

> was somewhat scapegoated by some of the therapists on the team who

had me

> stigmatized and labeled and misidentified by their own biases and

judgements

> & I was highly aware of it, but at the same time unable to do

anything about

> it). Extremely painful situation for me, especially considering

the fact,

> that I had accomplished so much personal growth in my life under

much

> duress, and had not given up (this is the period when I empowered

myself

> from being labeled as " mentally ill " to being a consumer/survivor

in

> recovery, self-empowering myself and bucking the system - the best

thing I

> could've done for myself, and key to my recovery, because I was

dying

> psychologically & emotionally prior to this), and I did it for me

(sheer

> survival) and no one else, and they were now refusing to

acknowledge my

> personal accomplishment, as they had all the other group members.

No big

> deal (this is how I have always acted though, see?). So, instead

of doing

> that, I mustered the courage to say something instead, to take

> responsibility for my thoughts and feelings. It didn't change

anything

> though. It was already a fact. The fact being that this Mental

Health tx

> team had basicly treated me in the same manner my nada had treated

me much

> of my life. The feelings I experienced were so reminiscent!

> It seemed like they were BPD, not I. They were all so

controlling of

> me. I was learning all of the skills so quickly and easily,

because I

> already used many of them. My problem was that I had been affected

by many

> people who have personality disorders in my own life, including

BPD, NPD,

> and APD (family, friends, boyfriends). No one was recognizing this

fact,

> except for me. They talked about invalidating environments all the

time in

> DBT, while providing one for me, which triggered me, because I was

raised by

> a nada & fada, who were both invalidating, and not capable of

mirroring

> properly.

> Now I know this must've been what my Higher Power wanted me to

find out,

> because this is what my experience was that led me to discover that

my

> Mother had a personality disorder (which I could not see until all

of this

> happened in therapy, this is what it took, this was the end

result). Yes,

> after one year, and all of that work, and the final result was that

they did

> not recognize my accomplishment of completing DBT, that was when

something

> clicked. It was all very painful.

> So, I was then reading SWOE, and that's when it hit me like a

ton of

> bricks, that my Mom fit nearly all the criteria of BPD, some of

them very

> strongly. I could not believe I hadn't noticed before. It was so

weird, I

> could barely believe it.

> My new therapist barely acknowledged my discovery that my

mother had BPD

> or the fact that she had screwed up (she somehow turned it around

and made

> it my fault?)........so I quit therapy, and said this isn't going

to work

> for me anymore. That was almost a year ago. That was the

beginning of my

> real recovery, I think, one defined by self-empowerment.

>

> wrote:

> > It strikes me that so many of us KOs have had the experience of

> > being labelled " mentally ill " when what we actually are

is " mentally

> > wounded " . (And WHY is that medicine makes that distinction in

terms

> > of physical illness vs injury but not for mental illness vs injury

> > anyway?)

> >

> > But now you know, and your healing process is progressing

> > amazingly. I see so much development of your insight and

> > understanding in just the short time since you joined the list.

> >

> > It is absolutely normal to be totally overwhelmed with grief

during

> > this part of your journey. It is an unavoidable part of

> > healing...letting our dreams of ever having " real mothers " die.

> >

>

> This is good to know. I guess that means it will pass too.

>

> > I think that for both of us, this is especially hard because our

> > nadas were so high-functioning in the outside world, and that

makes

> > it hard to get our heads around how messed up they were in their

> > family lives.

> >

>

> Yep. My Mom hired my AA sponsor, and they get along so well. I

have no one

> to talk to about this

> really, except dh. He is the only one who really gets it. But, he

is also

> affected. But, now I have this group, and I am so grateful for

that.

>

> > But you are facing this with great courage. I am so proud of you!

>

> Thanks again for all your loving support . It means so much

to me

> right now. It give me strength and courage to walk through each

day.

>

> >

> > Hugs,

> >

> >

> > --- " " <kthielen@k...> wrote:

> >> Hi ,

> >> I didn't get a chance to respond to your last note to me

> > previously & I had

> >> wanted to.

> >> I was in therapy for years, and also experienced this form of

> > detachment

> >> from my emotions thing you describe for years (not true any

> > longer, although

> >> I still can I think) in early sobriety (my sponsors made me do

4th

> > steps

> >> over because I did not cry), in therapy, etc.,. Today, I am

> > feeling all

> >> the emotions, including some anger over the fact that my

therapist

> > never

> >> clued in to the fact that my nada had a BPD. I was in therapy

> > for years,

> >> trying to get help for muself, to figure out what was wrong with

> > me so I

> >> could get better at doing life, and the primary topic was often

my

> > struggle

> >> with this over dependent enmeshed and abusive relationship with

> > nada. My

> >> therapist was the head counselor of the DBT team. After 5 years

> > of therapy,

> >> I think they pretty much decided the only way they could help me

> > was through

> >> DBT, essentially labeling me as BP (because yes, I admitted I had

> > traits of

> >> BP), without coming out and saying so, if you will. But, I

> > absolutely

> >> refused to allow them to diagnosed me BPD. And, when I tried the

> > DBT group

> >> the first time, I quit after a few weeks, because I knew I did

not

> > belong

> >> there (I did not identify with the others in there at all). My

> > actual

> >> diagnosis is Bipolar depression (I don't even know if that is

> > correct now,

> >> but I do know that I have had recurrent episodes of depression,

> > particularly

> >> having to do with hormones - giving birth, and the

antidepressants

> > I was put

> >> on made me worse in many ways.). For years I believed I

> > was " crazy " ,

> >> " mentall ill " , and searched for what my problem was so I could

> > start to live

> >> in the solution. Well, why wouldn't I believe this, this is

what

> > nada told

> >> me ever time I expressed an emotion with her, or said something

> > that

> >> disagreed with her version of reality (she would scream at me or

> > look at me

> >> in disgust and say " you are crazy " ), this is frightening to a

> > child. This

> >> is what happened in me in my adolescence. I didn't believe her,

I

> > believed

> >> it was her not me (so I thought). But, I now realize that this

> > parental

> >> mirroring had an effect upon me whether I realized it or not

(like

> >> brainwashing). I eventually got to a place where I did the DBT

> > course

> >> because I realized that was my therapists forte, and I may as

well

> > take

> >> advantage of it, it really didn't matter whether I had BP or not,

> > the point

> >> was was that I was willing to change and to grow, and to pick up

> > new life

> >> skills wherever I could find them. Who was right and who was

> > wrong was

> >> beside the point. So, I did and took what I could from it. But,

> >> unfortunately with the treatment team there everthing did turn

out

> > to be a

> >> power struggle with them. I completed the year of DBT, and then

> > they

> >> interceded and attempted not to acknowledge I had completed it or

> > give me my

> >> " diploma " in group. It was quite sick. I think the other group

> > members

> >> were unhappy with there power tactic control methods as well, as

> > far as I

> >> could tell. It was reminiscent of growing up in the land of OZ

if

> > you ask

> >> me. All very triggering. Which btw, is what led me to realize

> > and become

> >> aware that my BP mother had BPD at all.

> >> After one year of DBT and these power struggles with this TX team

> > was

> >> engaging in, I became aware that my Mother had BPD, that was one

> > year ago.

> >>

> >> The point being, that it angers me that I could be in therapy for

> > so long to

> >> get help for myself on my own accord, be completely honest with

> > these so

> >> called professionals (spefically trained to treat BPD), and they

> > did not

> >> even clue in to the fact that my nada had BPD!!!!!#$%#@Oolh.

> >>

> >> I look at my life, and I realize I have been surrounded by people

> > with or

> >> affected by this disorder throughout. Today, I run from people

> > who seem to

> >> have it, in order to protect myself. I want to learn how to set

> > healthy

> >> boundaries instead. Avoidance, isolating, as it says in SWOE

fear

> > and

> >> anxiety is not the same as helplessness (yea!). I have felt

> > helpless and

> >> hopeless for too long. I have been trying to get help and found

> > none. I

> >> have found more help in this group just by reading everybody's

> > situations

> >> and identying and getting honest feedback and validation from all

> > of you,

> >> than I got from nearly a decade of therapy.

> >>

> >> Yesterday I bought the SWOE workbook and began that. I am

> > desperate to do

> >> what I can to change what I can so my life can improve. I've

> > known for a

> >> very long time I can't change anyone else. But, I have felt

> > trapped, stuck,

> >> and helpless and hopeless. Not knowing what else to do. SWOE

> > said

> >> avoidance is also taking an action (I hadn't thought of it like

> > that), and

> >> this action has been making me ill - that's what I have beeen

> > doing for

> >> years. Until quite recently, I've begun taking actions which

make

> > me feel

> >> like a mean person as someone said (but I am actually setting

> > healthy

> >> boundaries, and taking responsibility for me, for the first time,

> > I think).

> >> It's empowering, but frightening at the same time.

> >>

> >> wrote:

> >> > It's a horrible thing, to be dependent on, and therefore

> > vulnerable

> >> > to, someone who's irrational and thus unreliable and

> > unpredictable.

> >>

> >> Yes, that is what I am in the process of realizing - I have been

> > taking time

> >> to allow this to really sink in. I've never really done this

> > before.

> >> Sometimes the grief overwhelms me.

> >>

> >> It's like this, I had to explain it to my son last night. He was

> > irritated

> >> with me for saying " is that really happening " about something I

> > percieved,

> >> which I am aware that I do quite often.

> >> This was the example that I gave to him, which helped him to

truly

> >> understand why I doubt my own perceptions so much. When you grow

> > up and you

> >> are a little kid, and every day you wake up excited and happy and

> > thrilled

> >> to be alive, and you say " Look Mommy today the sky is blue " , and

> > in response

> >> to your observation your are told " no, , the sky is not blue

> > (even

> >> though you can see clearly that it is), the sky is grey " , or you

> > wake up and

> >> you say " Mommy I feel sad today " , and you are told, " you aren't

> > sad, you are

> >> happy, and everything is fine " , for example, maybe? And, the

> > other parent

> >> (Dad), is absolutely unavailable as a mirror at all (you can't

> > even get his

> >> attention), but you try desparetely anyway. The message you get

> > growing up

> >> is

> >> I do not exist

> >> I am unimportant

> >> what I think, feel, and want is not important and real

> >>

> >> I believed I had a perfect childhood until I was 25 years old.

In

> >> otherwords I believed the lie presented to me, that I was

> > brainwashed and

> >> programmed to believe. My nada was so good at pretending and

> > faking that

> >> not even she could convince me it was all a lie, when she decided

> > it was

> >> over. I clung to the fantasy she had presented, the false

> > reality, false

> >> family, false father, false mother, all images and not reality,

> > etc., When I

> >> was 25, the image began to crack.

> >>

> >> But, I think I will always need to double check my own

perceptions

> > of

> >> reality from time to time. And, I can accept this without

judging

> > me.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> > --- " " <kthielen@k...> wrote:

> >> >> Now that I am reading about BPD, and becoming aware of how

sick

> >> >> she really is. I mean I would say that everytime I go around

> > her

> >> >> and the bizarre things would come out of her mouth, but then I

> >> >> forget.

> >> >>

> >> >> You know, I literally, forget a week later if I don't write it

> >> >> down. WHat is that? Does anyone else do that?

> >> >

> >>

> >> wrote:

> >> > I think most of us KOs have experienced our psyches protecting

> > us from

> >> > a reality that was too painful to process. Sometimes

we " forget "

> >> > (actually repress) impossible-seeming or unbearably-painful

> > memories,

> >> > or sometimes we remember the facts but repress our feelings

about

> >> > them. When I first started with my therpist I think I shocked

> > her by

> >> > describing the most horrific, soul-destroying experiences in a

> > calm,

> >> > rational, detached and very intellectual way.

> >> >

> >> > This might be a pattern that began when you were a child and it

> > was

> >> > the only way you could live with your nada and not go

completely

> > crazy

> >> > yourself. I expect that as you continue to educate yourself

> > about BP,

> >> > and are able to normalize your experiences by understanding

them

> > and

> >> > sharing them with us, you'll find that this improves. If you

> > can call

> >> > remembering all the " crazy nada assertions " an improvement,

that

> > is!

> >> >

> >> > But you may also find that as you stop forgetting the crazy

> > things

> >> > your mom is saying, you will realise that they are causing you

> > even

> >> > more distress than you are consciously aware of right now. I

> > fear

> >> > this may be connected to your position of material dependence

on

> > her.

> >> > Could it be that some part of your brain is protecting you from

> > the

> >> > sheer awful uncertainty of that?

> >> >

> >> > The REAL truth is that you are actually MUCH safer now than

when

> > you

> >> > didn't know about your mom's BP. You have supports and

> > resources and

> >> > options that you didn't have before, both for dealing with her

> > and for

> >> > taking care of yourself and your own family.

> >> >

> >> > Hugs,

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

> >> > Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-

owner

> >> > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be

> > ordered via

> >> > 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go

> > to:

> >> > http://www.BPDCentral.com

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

[Guest guest]

Since I posted that I have discovered that she also has very nice

website, which she didn't when I first discovered her several years

ago. www.hsperson.com

Hugs,

--- " " <kthielen@k...> wrote:

> I've heard of that book. I'm going to see if our library has a

copy.

> thanks for the tip , your an angel:-)

>

> Re: nada update

>

>

> > Hi again ,

> >

> > Just wanted to add that you might find some validation and

practical

> > help in Elaine Aron's book " The Highly Sensitive Person " . I think

> > you and I may be much alike in this respect...and it makes all

> > the " KO stuff " a double-whammy.

> >

> > Hugs,

> >

> >

> > --- " " <kthielen@k...> wrote:

> >> Hi ,

> >> Thank you for all of your loving support and I really appreciate

> > your

> >> insight & wisdom.

> >> Your nada & mine seem to be a lot alike.

> >>

> >> Have other KO's really had similar experiences? Because for some

> > reason I

> >> feel like I am the only one. And, I feel a lot of fear, doubt,

> > anger, (and

> >> possibly shame), around this. My 12 step program, teaches me

that

> >> " acceptance it the answer to all my problems " (which, btw, I

> > disagree with

> >> now, because some things should not be accepted maybe), so when I

> > was

> >> diagnosed with Bipolar disorder, the solution to me, seemed to be

> > simply one

> >> of acceptance, and start living in the solution. But, reality

> > turned out

> >> not to be so simple. That was 7 years ago, and I have now come

to

> > the

> >> conclusion, that I may not have any " disorder " whatever (except

> > that I am a

> >> recovery alcoholic, and I have a history of

> > depression/anxiety/PMS), that I

> >> do not have to accept any label. I am doing better today, on

less

> >> medication and with no therapist, than I've done in much of life,

> > finally,

> >> and I think it is from self -empowerment. Not allowing others,

> > whether it

> >> is my Mother (nada), my boyfriend, friends, sponsors, or the

mental

> > health

> >> system, to define my reality for me and dictate what I need. I

> > have had a

> >> tendency to trust others, to look for those others for answers to

> > my

> >> problems & life, and accept what is mirrored back at me as fact

> > (childish),

> >> not taking responsibility for my life, expecting others to do for

> > me what I

> >> should do for myself. I am not beating myself up for that, it's

> > just what

> >> it is. Seeing it is the first step in changing it.

> >> I have finally been learning how to care for myself, and

> > taking

> >> responsibility for myself for the first time, through empowering

> > myself, by

> >> taking my own power and identifying what my needs and wants

are. I

> > really

> >> like the SWOE workbook, because it is going to help me in this

area

> > a lot,

> >> it's excellent so far.

> >> It has been very hard to do this, because I have been groomed to

be

> >> dependent upon others since birth. I am highly intelligent and

> > emotionally

> >> sensitive (both traits of the gifted I have recently learned), so

> > my mind

> >> automatically searches for solutions and sees incongruencies. I

> > have a

> >> difficult time with injustice, and find it to be a highly

> > emotionally

> >> charged experience. But, I also look for solutions in such

> > situations, this

> >> is my nature. And, what I have found, is that many other people,

> >> particularly those in what is percieved to be authoritative

> > positions (such

> >> as a treatement team, one example), are not conducive to such

> > suggestions,

> >> no matter how gently they come. All people come with there own

> > issues. I

> >> have always been a hopeful, foolish optimist, very naive, and

> > highly

> >> sensitive person.

> >> I've become very hurt due to my inherent nature, and now I tend

to

> > isolate

> >> because of it. But, I am learning (late), some things I probably

> > should've

> >> learned about the world in adolescence, and that is that not all

> > people are

> >> nice or trustworthy.

> >> What I percieve as an asset, is perceivced as a liability in

> > certain

> >> situations. And, this seems to be what happened with my DBT

> > experience (I

> >> was somewhat scapegoated by some of the therapists on the team

who

> > had me

> >> stigmatized and labeled and misidentified by their own biases and

> > judgements

> >> & I was highly aware of it, but at the same time unable to do

> > anything about

> >> it). Extremely painful situation for me, especially considering

> > the fact,

> >> that I had accomplished so much personal growth in my life under

> > much

> >> duress, and had not given up (this is the period when I empowered

> > myself

> >> from being labeled as " mentally ill " to being a consumer/survivor

> > in

> >> recovery, self-empowering myself and bucking the system - the

best

> > thing I

> >> could've done for myself, and key to my recovery, because I was

> > dying

> >> psychologically & emotionally prior to this), and I did it for me

> > (sheer

> >> survival) and no one else, and they were now refusing to

> > acknowledge my

> >> personal accomplishment, as they had all the other group members.

> > No big

> >> deal (this is how I have always acted though, see?). So, instead

> > of doing

> >> that, I mustered the courage to say something instead, to take

> >> responsibility for my thoughts and feelings. It didn't change

> > anything

> >> though. It was already a fact. The fact being that this Mental

> > Health tx

> >> team had basicly treated me in the same manner my nada had

treated

> > me much

> >> of my life. The feelings I experienced were so reminiscent!

> >> It seemed like they were BPD, not I. They were all so

> > controlling of

> >> me. I was learning all of the skills so quickly and easily,

> > because I

> >> already used many of them. My problem was that I had been

affected

> > by many

> >> people who have personality disorders in my own life, including

> > BPD, NPD,

> >> and APD (family, friends, boyfriends). No one was recognizing

this

> > fact,

> >> except for me. They talked about invalidating environments all

the

> > time in

> >> DBT, while providing one for me, which triggered me, because I

was

> > raised by

> >> a nada & fada, who were both invalidating, and not capable of

> > mirroring

> >> properly.

> >> Now I know this must've been what my Higher Power wanted me

to

> > find out,

> >> because this is what my experience was that led me to discover

that

> > my

> >> Mother had a personality disorder (which I could not see until

all

> > of this

> >> happened in therapy, this is what it took, this was the end

> > result). Yes,

> >> after one year, and all of that work, and the final result was

that

> > they did

> >> not recognize my accomplishment of completing DBT, that was when

> > something

> >> clicked. It was all very painful.

> >> So, I was then reading SWOE, and that's when it hit me like a

> > ton of

> >> bricks, that my Mom fit nearly all the criteria of BPD, some of

> > them very

> >> strongly. I could not believe I hadn't noticed before. It was

so

> > weird, I

> >> could barely believe it.

> >> My new therapist barely acknowledged my discovery that my

> > mother had BPD

> >> or the fact that she had screwed up (she somehow turned it around

> > and made

> >> it my fault?)........so I quit therapy, and said this isn't going

> > to work

> >> for me anymore. That was almost a year ago. That was the

> > beginning of my

> >> real recovery, I think, one defined by self-empowerment.

> >>

> >> wrote:

> >> > It strikes me that so many of us KOs have had the experience of

> >> > being labelled " mentally ill " when what we actually are

> > is " mentally

> >> > wounded " . (And WHY is that medicine makes that distinction in

> > terms

> >> > of physical illness vs injury but not for mental illness vs

injury

> >> > anyway?)

> >> >

> >> > But now you know, and your healing process is progressing

> >> > amazingly. I see so much development of your insight and

> >> > understanding in just the short time since you joined the list.

> >> >

> >> > It is absolutely normal to be totally overwhelmed with grief

> > during

> >> > this part of your journey. It is an unavoidable part of

> >> > healing...letting our dreams of ever having " real mothers " die.

> >> >

> >>

> >> This is good to know. I guess that means it will pass too.

> >>

> >> > I think that for both of us, this is especially hard because

our

> >> > nadas were so high-functioning in the outside world, and that

> > makes

> >> > it hard to get our heads around how messed up they were in

their

> >> > family lives.

> >> >

> >>

> >> Yep. My Mom hired my AA sponsor, and they get along so well. I

> > have no one

> >> to talk to about this

> >> really, except dh. He is the only one who really gets it. But,

he

> > is also

> >> affected. But, now I have this group, and I am so grateful for

> > that.

> >>

> >> > But you are facing this with great courage. I am so proud of

you!

> >>

> >> Thanks again for all your loving support . It means so much

> > to me

> >> right now. It give me strength and courage to walk through each

> > day.

> >>

> >> >

> >> > Hugs,

> >> >

> >> >

> >> > --- " " <kthielen@k...> wrote:

> >> >> Hi ,

> >> >> I didn't get a chance to respond to your last note to me

> >> > previously & I had

> >> >> wanted to.

> >> >> I was in therapy for years, and also experienced this form of

> >> > detachment

> >> >> from my emotions thing you describe for years (not true any

> >> > longer, although

> >> >> I still can I think) in early sobriety (my sponsors made me do

> > 4th

> >> > steps

> >> >> over because I did not cry), in therapy, etc.,. Today, I am

> >> > feeling all

> >> >> the emotions, including some anger over the fact that my

> > therapist

> >> > never

> >> >> clued in to the fact that my nada had a BPD. I was in

therapy

> >> > for years,

> >> >> trying to get help for muself, to figure out what was wrong

with

> >> > me so I

> >> >> could get better at doing life, and the primary topic was

often

> > my

> >> > struggle

> >> >> with this over dependent enmeshed and abusive relationship

with

> >> > nada. My

> >> >> therapist was the head counselor of the DBT team. After 5

years

> >> > of therapy,

> >> >> I think they pretty much decided the only way they could help

me

> >> > was through

> >> >> DBT, essentially labeling me as BP (because yes, I admitted I

had

> >> > traits of

> >> >> BP), without coming out and saying so, if you will. But, I

> >> > absolutely

> >> >> refused to allow them to diagnosed me BPD. And, when I tried

the

> >> > DBT group

> >> >> the first time, I quit after a few weeks, because I knew I did

> > not

> >> > belong

> >> >> there (I did not identify with the others in there at all).

My

> >> > actual

> >> >> diagnosis is Bipolar depression (I don't even know if that is

> >> > correct now,

> >> >> but I do know that I have had recurrent episodes of

depression,

> >> > particularly

> >> >> having to do with hormones - giving birth, and the

> > antidepressants

> >> > I was put

> >> >> on made me worse in many ways.). For years I believed I

> >> > was " crazy " ,

> >> >> " mentall ill " , and searched for what my problem was so I could

> >> > start to live

> >> >> in the solution. Well, why wouldn't I believe this, this is

> > what

> >> > nada told

> >> >> me ever time I expressed an emotion with her, or said

something

> >> > that

> >> >> disagreed with her version of reality (she would scream at me

or

> >> > look at me

> >> >> in disgust and say " you are crazy " ), this is frightening to a

> >> > child. This

> >> >> is what happened in me in my adolescence. I didn't believe

her,

> > I

> >> > believed

> >> >> it was her not me (so I thought). But, I now realize that

this

> >> > parental

> >> >> mirroring had an effect upon me whether I realized it or not

> > (like

> >> >> brainwashing). I eventually got to a place where I did the

DBT

> >> > course

> >> >> because I realized that was my therapists forte, and I may as

> > well

> >> > take

> >> >> advantage of it, it really didn't matter whether I had BP or

not,

> >> > the point

> >> >> was was that I was willing to change and to grow, and to pick

up

> >> > new life

> >> >> skills wherever I could find them. Who was right and who was

> >> > wrong was

> >> >> beside the point. So, I did and took what I could from it.

But,

> >> >> unfortunately with the treatment team there everthing did turn

> > out

> >> > to be a

> >> >> power struggle with them. I completed the year of DBT, and

then

> >> > they

> >> >> interceded and attempted not to acknowledge I had completed

it or

> >> > give me my

> >> >> " diploma " in group. It was quite sick. I think the other

group

> >> > members

> >> >> were unhappy with there power tactic control methods as well,

as

> >> > far as I

> >> >> could tell. It was reminiscent of growing up in the land of

OZ

> > if

> >> > you ask

> >> >> me. All very triggering. Which btw, is what led me to

realize

> >> > and become

> >> >> aware that my BP mother had BPD at all.

> >> >> After one year of DBT and these power struggles with this TX

team

> >> > was

> >> >> engaging in, I became aware that my Mother had BPD, that was

one

> >> > year ago.

> >> >>

> >> >> The point being, that it angers me that I could be in therapy

for

> >> > so long to

> >> >> get help for myself on my own accord, be completely honest

with

> >> > these so

> >> >> called professionals (spefically trained to treat BPD), and

they

> >> > did not

> >> >> even clue in to the fact that my nada had BPD!!!!!#$%#@Oolh.

> >> >>

> >> >> I look at my life, and I realize I have been surrounded by

people

> >> > with or

> >> >> affected by this disorder throughout. Today, I run from

people

> >> > who seem to

> >> >> have it, in order to protect myself. I want to learn how to

set

> >> > healthy

> >> >> boundaries instead. Avoidance, isolating, as it says in SWOE

> > fear

> >> > and

> >> >> anxiety is not the same as helplessness (yea!). I have felt

> >> > helpless and

> >> >> hopeless for too long. I have been trying to get help and

found

> >> > none. I

> >> >> have found more help in this group just by reading everybody's

> >> > situations

> >> >> and identying and getting honest feedback and validation from

all

> >> > of you,

> >> >> than I got from nearly a decade of therapy.

> >> >>

> >> >> Yesterday I bought the SWOE workbook and began that. I am

> >> > desperate to do

> >> >> what I can to change what I can so my life can improve. I've

> >> > known for a

> >> >> very long time I can't change anyone else. But, I have felt

> >> > trapped, stuck,

> >> >> and helpless and hopeless. Not knowing what else to do.

SWOE

> >> > said

> >> >> avoidance is also taking an action (I hadn't thought of it

like

> >> > that), and

> >> >> this action has been making me ill - that's what I have beeen

> >> > doing for

> >> >> years. Until quite recently, I've begun taking actions which

> > make

> >> > me feel

> >> >> like a mean person as someone said (but I am actually setting

> >> > healthy

> >> >> boundaries, and taking responsibility for me, for the first

time,

> >> > I think).

> >> >> It's empowering, but frightening at the same time.

> >> >>

> >> >> wrote:

> >> >> > It's a horrible thing, to be dependent on, and therefore

> >> > vulnerable

> >> >> > to, someone who's irrational and thus unreliable and

> >> > unpredictable.

> >> >>

> >> >> Yes, that is what I am in the process of realizing - I have

been

> >> > taking time

> >> >> to allow this to really sink in. I've never really done this

> >> > before.

> >> >> Sometimes the grief overwhelms me.

> >> >>

> >> >> It's like this, I had to explain it to my son last night. He

was

> >> > irritated

> >> >> with me for saying " is that really happening " about something

I

> >> > percieved,

> >> >> which I am aware that I do quite often.

> >> >> This was the example that I gave to him, which helped him to

> > truly

> >> >> understand why I doubt my own perceptions so much. When you

grow

> >> > up and you

> >> >> are a little kid, and every day you wake up excited and happy

and

> >> > thrilled

> >> >> to be alive, and you say " Look Mommy today the sky is blue " ,

and

> >> > in response

> >> >> to your observation your are told " no, , the sky is not

blue

> >> > (even

> >> >> though you can see clearly that it is), the sky is grey " , or

you

> >> > wake up and

> >> >> you say " Mommy I feel sad today " , and you are told, " you

aren't

> >> > sad, you are

> >> >> happy, and everything is fine " , for example, maybe? And, the

> >> > other parent

> >> >> (Dad), is absolutely unavailable as a mirror at all (you can't

> >> > even get his

> >> >> attention), but you try desparetely anyway. The message you

get

> >> > growing up

> >> >> is

> >> >> I do not exist

> >> >> I am unimportant

> >> >> what I think, feel, and want is not important and real

> >> >>

> >> >> I believed I had a perfect childhood until I was 25 years old.

> > In

> >> >> otherwords I believed the lie presented to me, that I was

> >> > brainwashed and

> >> >> programmed to believe. My nada was so good at pretending and

> >> > faking that

> >> >> not even she could convince me it was all a lie, when she

decided

> >> > it was

> >> >> over. I clung to the fantasy she had presented, the false

> >> > reality, false

> >> >> family, false father, false mother, all images and not

reality,

> >> > etc., When I

> >> >> was 25, the image began to crack.

> >> >>

> >> >> But, I think I will always need to double check my own

> > perceptions

> >> > of

> >> >> reality from time to time. And, I can accept this without

> > judging

> >> > me.

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >> > --- " " <kthielen@k...> wrote:

> >> >> >> Now that I am reading about BPD, and becoming aware of how

> > sick

> >> >> >> she really is. I mean I would say that everytime I go

around

> >> > her

> >> >> >> and the bizarre things would come out of her mouth, but

then I

> >> >> >> forget.

> >> >> >>

> >> >> >> You know, I literally, forget a week later if I don't

write it

> >> >> >> down. WHat is that? Does anyone else do that?

> >> >> >

> >> >>

> >> >> wrote:

> >> >> > I think most of us KOs have experienced our psyches

protecting

> >> > us from

> >> >> > a reality that was too painful to process. Sometimes

> > we " forget "

> >> >> > (actually repress) impossible-seeming or unbearably-painful

> >> > memories,

> >> >> > or sometimes we remember the facts but repress our feelings

> > about

> >> >> > them. When I first started with my therpist I think I

shocked

> >> > her by

> >> >> > describing the most horrific, soul-destroying experiences

in a

> >> > calm,

> >> >> > rational, detached and very intellectual way.

> >> >> >

> >> >> > This might be a pattern that began when you were a child

and it

> >> > was

> >> >> > the only way you could live with your nada and not go

> > completely

> >> > crazy

> >> >> > yourself. I expect that as you continue to educate yourself

> >> > about BP,

> >> >> > and are able to normalize your experiences by understanding

> > them

> >> > and

> >> >> > sharing them with us, you'll find that this improves. If

you

> >> > can call

> >> >> > remembering all the " crazy nada assertions " an improvement,

> > that

> >> > is!

> >> >> >

> >> >> > But you may also find that as you stop forgetting the crazy

> >> > things

> >> >> > your mom is saying, you will realise that they are causing

you

> >> > even

> >> >> > more distress than you are consciously aware of right now.

I

> >> > fear

> >> >> > this may be connected to your position of material

dependence

> > on

> >> > her.

> >> >> > Could it be that some part of your brain is protecting you

from

> >> > the

> >> >> > sheer awful uncertainty of that?

> >> >> >

> >> >> > The REAL truth is that you are actually MUCH safer now than

> > when

> >> > you

> >> >> > didn't know about your mom's BP. You have supports and

> >> > resources and

> >> >> > options that you didn't have before, both for dealing with

her

> >> > and for

> >> >> > taking care of yourself and your own family.

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Hugs,

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-

> > owner

> >> >> > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be

> >> > ordered via

> >> >> > 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of

contents, go

> >> > to:

> >> >> > http://www.BPDCentral.com

> >> >> >

> >> >> >

> >> >> >