Guest guest Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 , I don't have a problem with it. I don't even consider the post that dark. If you can't post less than happy posts here, than it isn't much of a support group. Didn't even make me think less of you. Hope the writing help solidify things in your mind. Nanci (NT) Wife to Jay (AS) Vote of confidence? Hi, I'm addressing this note to all of you who've read my recent posts about my attitude as an Aspie towards Parenting because Ron H's latest comments raise a doubt in my mind about whether my posting this kind of dark material is generally acceptable or not here on Aspires. > Well I can feel pretty confident that this latest post of yours will > have bewildered and indeed shocked many of our number. Later, Ron concludes with > Please keep on posting . I for one am just fascinated with your > descriptions. So I'm thinking that before I commit too much more shocking and bewildering here, I'd like to seek a vote of confidence from enough of you, that it's OK to proceed. Or should I stop? My basic original aim with this topic was to try and impart some insight to NT members here about the kind of thinking that can go on in their AS partners' minds. I'm not sure whether I'm having any success in this aim because up to now, all the responses have come from AS members. So for simplicity, I'd like to solicit one of a choice of four replies from you: - YES, I'm AS and it's OK by me for you to continue - NO, I'm AS and I would prefer not to have such shocking and bewildering material posted on Aspires. - YES, I'm NT and it's OK by me for you to continue - NO, I'm NT and I would prefer not to have such shocking and bewildering material posted on Aspires. Please vote by replying with one of these four. Thanks, ------------------------------------ " We each have our own way of living in the world, together we are like a symphony. Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial. We all contribute to the song of life. " ...Sondra We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference. ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list. Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author. Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission. When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at: http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER http://www.aspires-relationships.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 Hi , I'm NT and I'd really like you to continue. Yes I do find it shocking and bewildering, but I am fascinated by the insights you are giving. I guess what is most surprising to me is that while I can theoretically understand the emotional disconnectedness, you appear to actively want the child and grandchildren to not exist. So this seems more than 'cold' or 'logical' Aspieness as I have understood it. Once you have stepped away and are no longer involved, why are they still so abhorrent to you? I'm hoping I don't sound judgmental, or that I have misunderstood and mis-stated your feelings in any way. Quoting " Eyre " : > Hi, > > I'm addressing this note to all of you who've read my recent posts > about my attitude as an Aspie towards Parenting because Ron H's latest > comments raise a doubt in my mind about whether my posting this kind of > dark material is generally acceptable or not here on Aspires. > > > >> Well I can feel pretty confident that this latest post of yours will >> have bewildered and indeed shocked many of our number. > > Later, Ron concludes with > >> Please keep on posting . I for one am just fascinated with your >> descriptions. > > So I'm thinking that before I commit too much more shocking and > bewildering here, I'd like to seek a vote of confidence from enough of > you, that it's OK to proceed. Or should I stop? > > My basic original aim with this topic was to try and impart some insight > to NT members here about the kind of thinking that can go on in their AS > partners' minds. I'm not sure whether I'm having any success in this > aim because up to now, all the responses have come from AS members. > > So for simplicity, I'd like to solicit one of a choice of four replies > from you: > > - YES, I'm AS and it's OK by me for you to continue > > - NO, I'm AS and I would prefer not to have such shocking and > bewildering material posted on Aspires. > > - YES, I'm NT and it's OK by me for you to continue > > - NO, I'm NT and I would prefer not to have such shocking and > bewildering material posted on Aspires. > > Please vote by replying with one of these four. > > Thanks, > > > > ------------------------------------ > > " We each have our own way of living in the world, > together we are like a symphony. > Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony > It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial. > We all contribute to the song of life. " > ...Sondra > > We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference. > > ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list. > Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author. > Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission. > When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at: > http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm > ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER > http://www.aspires-relationships.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 - YES, I’m NT and it's OK by me for you to continue : Let me tell you a story. Years ago when I joined the FAAAS list because I thought my spouse might of had AS (he is now self diagnosed), they sent me a packet of information on AS. This was years ago when it was hard to understand " why " the behavior and it was mainly partners; spouses and family members coming together to make sense of their relationships along with a few medical/journal articles at the time. There was a newspaper article included by a woman by the name of Wall, I think from England who was a major FAAAS contributor and involved in their first two workshops with Tony Attwood. I read the article in disbelief as they were saying, some partners had reported that their AS partners never showed up at the hospital when they gave birth. I had just given birth to my third child and not only did Larry dropped me off at the hospital and came back the next day, he NEVER asked about the baby or to see her but asked me I could baby sit our eldest as he had to go shopping. He never even asked how I was doing. Larry was a dad on his time table and good at it when he chooses to parent or at least it appeared that way to me and our kids. We have been divorced for over 3 years and looking back, if Larry could do it again, he would not have kids. You don’t have to have AS to NOT want to reproduce as many choose not to for the same reasons and others and take precautions so it will never happen. Not everyone is cut out to be a parent. Your story has a twist as you have carried strong feelings and resentments and have often referred to your child as “it”. Support groups like ours and others that are private and confidential allow folks to post things they would not tell their lover and I am glad you feel safe to post such a difficult part of your life. You might be surprised of others with AS that feel the same. Are you on any AS boards? ASPIRES has evolved over the years. I couple of years ago the reaction might have been different, but we now more aware and the responses have been supportive in an effort to learn more and better communicate with our ASPIES if you are NT and if you are AS, they can offer their insights and support as well. Maybe your story can help other families understand and place better communication supports in place? Your choice to continue to post is solely your own. It is your life and you choose what or what not to disclose and where your comfort level lies. Just my humble opinion. Best regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 , I've already delivered you my vote of confidence. I was pleased to see what Nanci just wrote. Let me add this. Unlike some past members of the Board from previous years, you have not in any way infringed on the ASPIRES rules, that I can see. You have written respectfully and politely to everyone. I cant say you have even 'vented' in the violent and passionate way that some have done from time to time. You have told us clearly and dispassionately things you needed to discuss honestly; and you have confronted us with material that we may not have heard before. We are here absolutely to share with our fellow members whatever they may need to discuss. We are here to support each other, and heaven knows many of us need support from time to time. If we cant deal with some difficult facts about each other then there is something wrong with us. To the Aspie, Facts Is Facts, and that is just the way it is. Who can say just what information might be shared between us if everyone happened to be as frank as you have been. Again I dare say that each of us has his own personal'demons' inside that have eaten at us in the past, or that have disturbed our intimates and friends from time to time. 'let him who is without sin (or secrets, demons, inner conflicts - whatever) cast the first stone.' You are telling us in your posts of some of the possible issues that can plague an Aspergian. Good on you. Keep going, , Cheers, Ron. Subject: Vote of confidence? Hi, I'm addressing this note to all of you who've read my recent posts about my attitude as an Aspie towards Parenting because Ron H's latest comments raise a doubt in my mind about whether my posting this kind of dark material is generally acceptable or not here on Aspires. > Well I can feel pretty confident that this latest post of yours will > have bewildered and indeed shocked many of our number. Later, Ron concludes with > Please keep on posting . I for one am just fascinated with your > descriptions. So I'm thinking that before I commit too much more shocking and bewildering here, I'd like to seek a vote of confidence from enough of you, that it's OK to proceed. Or should I stop? My basic original aim with this topic was to try and impart some insight to NT members here about the kind of thinking that can go on in their AS partners' minds. I'm not sure whether I'm having any success in this aim because up to now, all the responses have come from AS members. So for simplicity, I'd like to solicit one of a choice of four replies from you: - YES, I'm AS and it's OK by me for you to continue - NO, I'm AS and I would prefer not to have such shocking and bewildering material posted on Aspires. - YES, I'm NT and it's OK by me for you to continue - NO, I'm NT and I would prefer not to have such shocking and bewildering material posted on Aspires. Please vote by replying with one of these four. Thanks, ------------------------------------ " We each have our own way of living in the world, together we are like a symphony. Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial. We all contribute to the song of life. " ...Sondra We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference. ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list. Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author. Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission. When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at: http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER http://www.aspires-relationships.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 I agree with Ron and the others. I don't have enough time right now to gather my thoughts up in reply but I do have thoughts to gather... Just so you know I'm not silent because of offense, just because of lack of time, Jennie AS Vote of confidence?Hi,I'm addressing this note to all of you who've read my recent posts about my attitude as an Aspie towards Parenting because Ron H's latest comments raise a doubt in my mind about whether my posting this kind of dark material is generally acceptable or not here on Aspires.> Well I can feel pretty confident that this latest post of yours will> have bewildered and indeed shocked many of our number.Later, Ron concludes with> Please keep on posting . I for one am just fascinated with your> descriptions.So I'm thinking that before I commit too much more shocking and bewildering here, I'd like to seek a vote of confidence from enough of you, that it's OK to proceed. Or should I stop?My basic original aim with this topic was to try and impart some insight to NT members here about the kind of thinking that can go on in their AS partners' minds. I'm not sure whether I'm having any success in this aim because up to now, all the responses have come from AS members.So for simplicity, I'd like to solicit one of a choice of four replies from you:- YES, I'm AS and it's OK by me for you to continue- NO, I'm AS and I would prefer not to have such shocking andbewildering material posted on Aspires.- YES, I'm NT and it's OK by me for you to continue- NO, I'm NT and I would prefer not to have such shocking andbewildering material posted on Aspires.Please vote by replying with one of these four.Thanks, ------------------------------------"We each have our own way of living in the world, together weare like a symphony.Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial.We all contribute to the song of life."...Sondra We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference.ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list.Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author.Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission.When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at:http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htmASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHERhttp://www.aspires-relationships.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 Hi , I've been a member of Aspires for a long time but not a frequent poster the last few years. I admit that I haven't read all of your posts, just the recent ones in which you ask if you should continue posting. The very fact that you are asking is an indicator to me that you are respectful and contributing in a productive manner. So I would say, go for it. I'm sure you recognize that if you are AS, your feelings on children will not automatically be representative of other AS or even other AS males, and that persons with AS are as different from one another as from persons who are NT (and often more similar to persons who are NT). I have also seen huge differences between males and females who are AS. I can't tell you what I am because I'm not sure. When I joined Aspires six or so years ago I was quite certain I was an NT female married to an AS male, but my secret theory after many years (which some others here have said they share) is that AS recognize other AS and that they are likely to marry other AS who may just be very different from them in terms of feelings, coping skills, etc. I did not marry a man whom I dated in college who was head over heels in love with me and wanted to " give me the world " , who was brilliant, a successful writer, talented in so many things, funny, good looking, intensely loyal and had so many qualities I can now recognize as valuable, in part because he was sure he did not want children. His reason was logical; he had an extremely difficult childhood and did not want to do that to children of his own. Since he was in his mid thirties at the time (about a dozen years my senior) and I was a college girl he was an overwhelming force for me at the time, and I thought that he was set in his ways and the one thing I always knew about me was that I wanted to be a mother. So I broke things off and we went our separate ways. I might add, knowing what I now know, he is likely AS, and he was every bit the perfectionist you describe yourself as well. Fast forward 20-some-odd years, and he is still a successful writer, still a perfectionist (I don't think one ever entirely " gets over " that) and extremely successful in other aspects of his life, including financial, but he is also the father of two grown children who are the most important part of his world, and he looks forward to being a grandfather. He said that he knew his wife wanted children, and out of love he was willing to do that for her and take the chance, and he has no regrets, in fact without his children he believes his life would have been so much less. I don't think it was easy for him to make that decision, and perhaps he had to mythologize his relation to them a bit to come to terms with it at first, but there is no question that he loves, would die for his children and even though he is still a bit more self-centered than " your average Joe " he is, to me, also a bit more of a special human being than " your average Joe " and I wouldn't give up our friendship for anything. As for me I recently separated from my (also, I believe AS) husband but one of the reasons I feel at peace about being single again is that I no longer have the energy drain that I had, not from my child but from my husband. I would never regret our relationship though because I did love him and would never regret anything that led to our having a wonderful child. Other thoughts on what you describe (just my opinion): The insecurity and perfectionism that many As suffer, is as much an impediment to developing a bond as anything, whether with a child or with an adult. It can make you afraid to try for fear of failing, and may have more to do with what you describe than anything. Also, there is the energy conservation factor which is huge. And as a logical AS who may think things to death, you can overthink all of this parenting stuff. I think energy (and lack of energy to deal with too much along the multitasking lines) is a HUGE part of all that as well. My brain just shuts down when I overload, I need to get away and do something mindless (for me it is usually going to the barn and being with the horses.) But don't go too far with it in terms of thinking that makes you cold, logical, rational -- it is simply your way of dealing with the limited energy that is all too common when you think intensely all the time. It's like having an appliance plugged in all the time, it uses energy you are not even aware it uses without _doing_ anything and leaves less for other functions. Maybe everyone is really like that, maybe it is just that those closer to the AS end of the spectrum are more hyperaware of the energy whereas those closer to the NT end don't notice it so much and there is an easier flow. Or I used to think of it as the workings of an engine where, with good rest and not too much stress, I can focus and be " on " and multitask and there is a very smooth flow (and good power) and if I am too tired or too overworked or too anything there is a lot of noise and misfiring going on. Best, (who woke at 3:30 EST and could not get back to sleep...) Vote of confidence? Hi, I'm addressing this note to all of you who've read my recent posts about my attitude as an Aspie towards Parenting because Ron H's latest comments raise a doubt in my mind about whether my posting this kind of dark material is generally acceptable or not here on Aspires. > Well I can feel pretty confident that this latest post of yours will > have bewildered and indeed shocked many of our number. Later, Ron concludes with > Please keep on posting . I for one am just fascinated with your > descriptions. So I'm thinking that before I commit too much more shocking and bewildering here, I'd like to seek a vote of confidence from enough of you, that it's OK to proceed. Or should I stop? My basic original aim with this topic was to try and impart some insight to NT members here about the kind of thinking that can go on in their AS partners' minds. I'm not sure whether I'm having any success in this aim because up to now, all the responses have come from AS members. So for simplicity, I'd like to solicit one of a choice of four replies from you: - YES, I'm AS and it's OK by me for you to continue - NO, I'm AS and I would prefer not to have such shocking and bewildering material posted on Aspires. - YES, I'm NT and it's OK by me for you to continue - NO, I'm NT and I would prefer not to have such shocking and bewildering material posted on Aspires. Please vote by replying with one of these four. Thanks, ------------------------------------ " We each have our own way of living in the world, together we are like a symphony. Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial. We all contribute to the song of life. " ...Sondra We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference. ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list. Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author. Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission. When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at: http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER http://www.aspires-relationships.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 Yes, please continue posting, . What you have to say is important. NT folk need to understand that we have ideas and opinions different from theirs. And different from each other, too ... I'm an Aspie and mom of two kids, the first born after 5 years of infertility treatment, thus desperately wanted. I should write down my thoughts about parenting and my self, but I haven't been in a good emotional state lately. The one thing I ask all, AS and NT alike, is to write as if nobody else shares your opinion, and that everyone who writes deserves polite respect, even when you think they are completely wrong. --Liz AS, separated from AS husband Mom of two kids, one NT, one PDD-NOS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 > I read the article in > disbelief as they were saying, some partners had reported that their AS > partners never showed up at the hospital when they gave birth. I had just > given birth to my third child and not only did Larry dropped me off at the > hospital and came back the next day, he NEVER asked about the baby or to see > her but asked me I could baby sit our eldest as he had to go shopping. He > never even asked how I was doing. Larry was a dad on his time table and > good at it when he chooses to parent or at least it appeared that way to me > and our kids. We have been divorced for over 3 years and looking back, if > Larry could do it again, he would not have kids. My estranged Aspie husband (EAH) and I always wanted kids, from the first day we thought about getting together. We didn't marry until we were sure it would work out (we were wrong, but that's 20 years later). We were in our early 30s, and ended up spending 5 years going through infertility work to have our first. [The second came along 5 years later, as a very happy surprise.] EAH would always tell me he was a better father than his (definitely undiagnosed AS) father. That was true -- his dad is judgmental, harsh, and very conditional on love. [ " Oh, you got 98% on the calculus test? Let's go over what you got wrong. " ] But EAH missed the mark in many ways himself: - though he changed plenty of our eldest's diapers, he was mad at me and as " punishment " , never changed our son. - when our son was a newborn and had medical problems, he threatened to call social services because I wasn't able to breastfeed him. [The problem was silent reflux, and surgery at 8 weeks solved the problem completely.] - when our PDD-NOS daughter had a meltdown, he's usually have one, too -- he couldn't tolerate her meltdowns. - though he understood the concept of unconditional love, he found it very hard to put into practice. [Yet he railed at me when he thought I loved him for what he did, not who he was.] - he would take the kids to their activities, or do projects with them, only when he felt like it. The day before I got the restraining order, he spent the bulk of the day clearing the yard (in deep snow, with two broken ribs), but wouldn't take our son to his Cub Scout meeting because he " didn't feel like it " , was " too tired " , " the kids are way too wild " , and " it's not important. " I took our son ... saw an interesting slide show and the kids were no louder than any group of schoolboys. - perhaps most important, EAH had no clue that his kids (or me) might get upset at hearing their father in a meltdown rage, even when they were not involved. He still has no clue why our daughter moved out last fall (at age 15) and shows all the signs of trauma. " She's a spoiled brat " is his response. EAH was not the worst father ever, but he really didn't understand what being a father really meant. --Liz ------------ The Aspie Parent blog: http://aspergersparent.wordpress.com/ SF, science, and Gifted Ed t-shirts, mugs, and other items at http://www.zazzle.com/CartesianBear* Follow my shop activity at http://twitter.com/cartesianbear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 , I am AS, and I say, yes, please keep posting. The " mission " statement of this group says it all. We learn by listening to each other without judgement, without jumping to conclusions, without personalizing each others comments, just listening, and supporting the members of this group, so that each member feels valued. I will admit that the " fixer " in me wants at times to try to, well, not necessarily " change " your feelings about the birth that occurred without mutual consent, but try to " help " you see it in a different light. I admit to that. I really have to control myself from saying what I'm sure you've heard ad nauseum already. By turning off my own thoughts, I am thinking, and learning. Through your very honest sharing. It allows us to see not only how you feel, and not only how some AS may feel, but how probably other NS feel about this. If I thought for a moment that you were seriously going to act upon those feelings, then I would be *very* disturbed. But, I don't think so. And the reality is, while we are socialized not to *say* such things, when one feels powerless to events like this, well, there is going to be a lot of resentment. I identify this as the central issue for you. And it is an eye opener for the rest of us. It's common for people to believe that someone else is going to " change their mind " about a life altering decision that was foisted upon that person without their agreement (who said it's only AS that lack partial theory of mind?) but, what if they don't? The creation of human life is *the* most significant thing we can do. The decision or non-decision is too often entered upon recklessly without consideration for that human life, or the impact upon the rest of life on this planet. There are extremes in points of view on this one - yours may seem like one extreme - but there are many extremes. It's only in listening to each other that we find understanding. You are a respectful member on this board, and many members have demonstrated respectfulness int their responses, and this is the safe atmosphere that envisioned when she created this board 11 years ago. - Helen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 , you have my vote of confidence to keep writing. As a result of sharing 36 years with my (undiagnosed and in denial) husband and having our 31 year old, presumably AS, son living at home, I am on an extended journey trying to understand the Aspie wiring. With your openness you allow insight to a degree of detachment we were not familiar with. Your writing has given plenty food for thought. I hope that discussing this subject enlightens you, as well as all of us on this list. Anoush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 - YES, I'm AS and it's OK by me for you to continue Greg dx AS at 53 From: Eyre To: aspires-relationships Date: 12/04/2011 01:14 PM Subject: Vote of confidence? Sent by: aspires-relationships Hi, I'm addressing this note to all of you who've read my recent posts about my attitude as an Aspie towards Parenting because Ron H's latest comments raise a doubt in my mind about whether my posting this kind of dark material is generally acceptable or not here on Aspires. > Well I can feel pretty confident that this latest post of yours will > have bewildered and indeed shocked many of our number. Later, Ron concludes with > Please keep on posting . I for one am just fascinated with your > descriptions. So I'm thinking that before I commit too much more shocking and bewildering here, I'd like to seek a vote of confidence from enough of you, that it's OK to proceed. Or should I stop? My basic original aim with this topic was to try and impart some insight to NT members here about the kind of thinking that can go on in their AS partners' minds. I'm not sure whether I'm having any success in this aim because up to now, all the responses have come from AS members. So for simplicity, I'd like to solicit one of a choice of four replies from you: - YES, I'm AS and it's OK by me for you to continue - NO, I'm AS and I would prefer not to have such shocking and bewildering material posted on Aspires. - YES, I'm NT and it's OK by me for you to continue - NO, I'm NT and I would prefer not to have such shocking and bewildering material posted on Aspires. Please vote by replying with one of these four. Thanks, ------------------------------------ " We each have our own way of living in the world, together we are like a symphony. Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial. We all contribute to the song of life. " ...Sondra We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference. ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list. Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author. Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission. When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at: http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER http://www.aspires-relationships.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 Yes, I am NT but am married to an aspie (undiagnosed). I am in favor of you to continue being honest, and expressing yourself in detail, so that I can have a greater depth of understanding of how you feel. What you have said so far has been very helpful to me, and has made me think it over a lot. I read that you feel your life is purposeless, well, I think you have a purpose on this list.MemarieTo: aspires-relationships From: ggreer@...Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 08:15:36 +1000Subject: Re: Vote of confidence? - YES, I'm AS and it's OK by me for you to continue Greg dx AS at 53 From: Eyre To: aspires-relationships Date: 12/04/2011 01:14 PM Subject: Vote of confidence? Sent by: aspires-relationships Hi, I'm addressing this note to all of you who've read my recent posts about my attitude as an Aspie towards Parenting because Ron H's latest comments raise a doubt in my mind about whether my posting this kind of dark material is generally acceptable or not here on Aspires. > Well I can feel pretty confident that this latest post of yours will > have bewildered and indeed shocked many of our number. Later, Ron concludes with > Please keep on posting . I for one am just fascinated with your > descriptions. So I'm thinking that before I commit too much more shocking and bewildering here, I'd like to seek a vote of confidence from enough of you, that it's OK to proceed. Or should I stop? My basic original aim with this topic was to try and impart some insight to NT members here about the kind of thinking that can go on in their AS partners' minds. I'm not sure whether I'm having any success in this aim because up to now, all the responses have come from AS members. So for simplicity, I'd like to solicit one of a choice of four replies from you: - YES, I'm AS and it's OK by me for you to continue - NO, I'm AS and I would prefer not to have such shocking and bewildering material posted on Aspires. - YES, I'm NT and it's OK by me for you to continue - NO, I'm NT and I would prefer not to have such shocking and bewildering material posted on Aspires. Please vote by replying with one of these four. Thanks, ------------------------------------ "We each have our own way of living in the world, together we are like a symphony. Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial. We all contribute to the song of life." ...Sondra We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference. ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list. Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author. Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission. When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at: http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER http://www.aspires-relationships.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Thanks Liz, Yes, I think you should write down those thoughts. The very act of doing that might help with your emotional state. Why not just make a start with a few notes on the back of an old envelope, and add to it slowly from there whenever you think of something? I don't think you're wrong and I will certainly respect the desperation you had for a child, but I don't understand it at all and so would be interested in your thoughts on what you believe lay behind it. Was it for example something in your upbringing? Or wanting to compensate for something you missed in your own childhood? Genetic? AS related? Wanting to preserve your genetic line? Or just one of those things, perhaps? Also, how has the reality of becoming a mom compared to the expectation and craving you had previously? It will be particularly interesting to hear about all this from you as an AS, but take your time. No rush! --- Re: Vote of confidence? Yes, please continue posting, . What you have to say is important. NT folk need to understand that we have ideas and opinions different from theirs. And different from each other, too ... I'm an Aspie and mom of two kids, the first born after 5 years of infertility treatment, thus desperately wanted. I should write down my thoughts about parenting and my self, but I haven't been in a good emotional state lately. The one thing I ask all, AS and NT alike, is to write as if nobody else shares your opinion, and that everyone who writes deserves polite respect, even when you think they are completely wrong. --Liz AS, separated from AS husband Mom of two kids, one NT, one PDD-NOS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2011 Report Share Posted April 29, 2011 Hi again Helen, I was going to start by apologising for my response to your comments back on Tue, 12 Apr 2011 at 15:08:20 -0000, being so late, but on second thoughts, perhaps it was a good idea to give this heavy topic a bit of a break anyway. helen_foisy wrote: > , I am AS, and I say, yes, please keep posting. OK, thank you, I will, but I'm deliberately slowing the pace down now to avoid hogging the List too much, and to give myself time to reflect on what's being said. > The " mission " statement of this group says it all. We learn by listening to each other without judgement, without jumping to conclusions, without personalizing each others comments, just listening, and supporting the members of this group, so that each member feels valued. Alright, but we shouldn't constrain ourselves so much that we never offer our opinions at all on here, otherwise the List would become so bland that it would be meaningless. > I will admit that the " fixer " in me wants at times to try to, well, not necessarily " change " your feelings about the birth that occurred without mutual consent, but try to " help " you see it in a different light. I admit to that. I really have to control myself from saying what I'm sure you've heard ad nauseum already. By turning off my own thoughts, I am thinking, and learning. Yes, there is a balance that needs to be struck there between speaking your mind and trying to be respectful, but with too much self-gagging, you'd never dare to reply at all. Sometimes it's better to just risk it, especially in a friendly environment such as this List, with someone you think will listen and analyse what you say carefully without feeling they're being attacked or ridiculed. > Through your very honest sharing. It allows us to see not only how you feel, and not only how some AS may feel, but how probably other NS feel about this. If I thought for a moment that you were seriously going to act upon those feelings, then I would be *very* disturbed. But, I don't think so. And the reality is, while we are socialized not to *say* such things, when one feels powerless to events like this, well, there is going to be a lot of resentment. I identify this as the central issue for you. And it is an eye opener for the rest of us. I'm not even sure myself whether I will ever act on it. I know that if I stay well clear of the family and try to put them out of my mind, I feel safer in that respect. On the other hand if I start thinking about them, the whole affair and how it happened, and the extreme wrong of it all, I can find myself drifting towards more dangerous territory. So I have to say I can't completely trust myself. > It's common for people to believe that someone else is going to " change their mind " about a life altering decision that was foisted upon that person without their agreement (who said it's only AS that lack partial theory of mind?) but, what if they don't? Even the consultant who diagnosed me tried to probe me quite deeply to see if he could change my mind. He didn't succeed and I guess it was that rigidity that formed the basis of his diagnosis. Basically, if I were to change my mind, I wouldn't really be an Aspie any more. Is such a thing possible? I rather doubt it. > The creation of human life is *the* most significant thing we can do. The decision or non-decision is too often entered upon recklessly without consideration for that human life, or the impact upon the rest of life on this planet. Absolutely! And equally it's the most significant thing we *shouldn't* do unless we're sure. I definitely wasn't sure at the time it all happened, and my decision at that time was I wasn't ready to create a child. Naïvely I thought that my wife respected that, and I thought that by my wife taking the pill, we were covered. I was wrong on both counts. And then there's another thing. Why is human life regarded as so sacrosanct? Especially for a foetus in the early stages? What would be so wrong with abortion if the couple had previously decided they weren't ready to start a family? OK, I know now that hormones and reproductive instincts override what would otherwise be common sense, but in my naïvity at the time, I didn't know that. Where does the dividing line between abortion and murder lie? Why is it OK to shoot the enemy you want to eliminate in times of war, and OK to give capital punishment to criminals that are unwanted, OK to slaughter chickens with bird 'flu, OK for an animal shelter to put unwanted dogs down, but not OK to stop the life of one's own unwanted child? Don't we kill all these creatures basically for our convenience? If a child is going to be inconvenient, what's the difference? I seem to be missing something somewhere. > There are extremes in points of view on this one - yours may seem like one extreme - but there are many extremes. It's only in listening to each other that we find understanding. I don't deny being an extreme. I've never wanted to be an ordinary run-of-the-mill sheep like the others, but I don't see how being extreme has any direct correlation with right and wrong. > You are a respectful member on this board, and many members have demonstrated respectfulness int their responses, and this is the safe atmosphere that envisioned when she created this board 11 years ago. Thank you. I believe in showing respect within the communities we are part of, too, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with everything the members of our community say. Thanks for your understanding comments, Helen. 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Guest guest Posted April 29, 2011 Report Share Posted April 29, 2011 > Where does the dividing line between abortion and murder lie? Why is > it OK to shoot the enemy you want to eliminate in times of war, and OK > to give capital punishment to criminals that are unwanted, OK to > slaughter chickens with bird 'flu, OK for an animal shelter to put > unwanted dogs down, but not OK to stop the life of one's own unwanted > child? Don't we kill all these creatures basically for our > convenience? If a child is going to be inconvenient, what's the > difference? I seem to be missing something somewhere. Aspie to Aspie talk here, because most NTs can't comprehend that we may not automatically know this. Most people classify humans as different from other living creatures. Humans are considered to be " more than animal, " " closer to God, " " have a spark of divine, " " the only creatures to have souls " ... choose the mythology/theology of your choice, they all rank humans as above other life. So while it is considered ethical (for many) to kill non-humans, people are in a different category, and should not be killed. But what about war, or executing criminals? These deaths are considered necessary by society (or those in power), and the people in power do what they can to de-humanize those who will be killed. Think about how " the enemy " is portrayed in war propaganda, and how dignity is stripped from condemned criminals. That's so we can feel justified in killing them. As far as pregnancy termination and infanticide, at some point the embryo/fetus/infant becomes human enough to be considered unethical to kill. Deciding when that point is is the key issue in any " abortion " debate. [i prefer the wording " pregnancy termination " , because the word abortion is already very biased -- look it up in a dictionary.] So, all of this comes about because most humans feel the need to be special ... if one does not feel this need, it may seem odd that others do. But they do, and the societies people create apply this principle, and stuff follows stuff. --Liz who is used to giving lectures like this to her kids, though not on this deep a level ------------ The Aspie Parent blog: http://aspergersparent.wordpress.com/ SF, science, and Gifted Ed t-shirts, mugs, and other items at http://www.zazzle.com/CartesianBear* Follow my shop activity at http://twitter.com/cartesianbear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 > > Hi again Helen, > > I was going to start by apologising for my response to your > comments back on Tue, 12 Apr 2011 at 15:08:20 -0000, being so late, > but on second thoughts, perhaps it was a good idea to give this heavy > topic a bit of a break anyway. Hi , Honestly, I did not feel like you were attacking me or any other member of this group with your reply, so there is no need to apologize. My non response was not a snub. It's just that I'm not going to change your mind, so there isn't a whole lot more I can say in response to your other reply to me. I have also been very busy, but I should have acknowledged your reply sooner. Here, I'm just going to respond to one part, though I have read and acknowledged all you have said. You said: > Even the consultant who diagnosed me tried to probe me quite deeply to > see if he could change my mind. He didn't succeed and I guess it was > that rigidity that formed the basis of his diagnosis. Basically, if I > were to change my mind, I wouldn't really be an Aspie any more. Is > such a thing possible? I rather doubt it. I disagree there. It disturbs me that the consultant diagnosed AS on that basis. It would tend to pathologize us all and I do not like that. However, I have no doubt that you are " one of us " and, we on the spectrum can certainly be rigid and unyielding on some issues. Your issue is quite extreme, but as I said, there can be many extremes, both in AS and NS thinking. Generally though, if you showed an AS sound logic, we would revise our opinions. The issue you struggle with is different though. It's rooted in a profound betrayal and violation of your trust. We on the spectrum generally say what we mean, and due to partial lack of theory of mind, it is natural for us to assume that everyone else does too. A traumatic event, betrayal or violation can really unravel us, and if it happens at a vulnerable point in our lives, it might even hang a job on the neural pathways in our brain .. otherwise known as post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) That event was severely traumatic to you, you have said this. Severe trauma does rewire the brain. This can be seen in MRIs now, you can actually see how PTSD re-maps the brain. PTSD can happen to AS or NS (non spectrum) However, I suspect that we on the spectrum may be more susceptible due to our inability to anticipate the blindside. Although neuroscience has come a long way, at this point, some of the changes brought about by PTSD seem fairly intractable. Most of us know at least one war veteran who has been affected in this way. In your case, obviously, the shock was incalculable, and it does seem to have knocked something offline in your head, permanently. Some would argue that if you wanted to change your thinking on this, you could, but you said you have tried, to no avail. Since that is the case, and I'm not even going to " go there " with the darkest aspects of it here, I really think all you can do is to not think about it, period. Maybe someday, some pivotal event may create another paradigm shift in your reasoning, and I will pray for that day. But until then, as one of my friends puts it when dealing with the unknowable and unsolvable, file it away under " L " for " Later. " Now, I do understand the idea of wanting some things to not have happened, or wanting to have had a different outcome. Eventually I move on, but there is an interval where I will be in severe mental distress. I will be in absolute denial, thinking " no, this CAN NOT have happened " and I want to rewind time. But this is not unique to AS. NS feel this way about traumatic events too. After a period of grieving, I'm able to re-center myself and look at the " big picture " and decide that however terrible this thing was (it could be the unexpected death of someone close to me) it does not make sense to remain stuck there, it is better to refocus on the positive and get back to making the most of an already too short life. But there is one thing that I can not " move on " from. I certainly have wanted to, but it's clear this is going to be with me for life. I'm not even talking about what the relatives did - that's trivial. So what makes this different? I have come to realize that it's not so much the issue itself, but all that it represents. It is symbolic of another kind of loss, and also another kind of wish. This, too, is not unique. Most everyone has been through this, something that could not be changed, an unbearable thing, and yet, they must bear it. Suffering of this type is the stuff that drives central figures in recorded history, and in great epic fiction, mythology, fables, novels, comic book villains and heroes, plays and screenplays - those stories resonate with us all. These events often serve as a pivotal " turning point " as the sufferer eventually finds new awareness. Maybe for you, it has led to discovery of AS, and a new community. - Helen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2011 Report Share Posted April 30, 2011 Thanks Liz. Yes I think you've expressed all that in good comprehensible language. I can certainly understand it anyway! A few comments below: > > >> Where does the dividing line between abortion and murder lie? Why is >> it OK to shoot the enemy you want to eliminate in times of war, and OK >> to give capital punishment to criminals that are unwanted, OK to >> slaughter chickens with bird 'flu, OK for an animal shelter to put >> unwanted dogs down, but not OK to stop the life of one's own unwanted >> child? Don't we kill all these creatures basically for our >> convenience? If a child is going to be inconvenient, what's the >> difference? I seem to be missing something somewhere. > > Aspie to Aspie talk here, because most NTs can't comprehend that we may not automatically know this. Exactly! It's not that we're unaware of other people's views on these issues, but that (at least in my case) I don't understand the reasoning behind those views, and that's why I don't see why I should automatically accept them. I could descend into perseveration about global over-population here but I'll resist that temptation. > Most people classify humans as different from other living creatures. Humans are considered to be " more than animal, " " closer to God, " " have a spark of divine, " " the only creatures to have souls " ... choose the mythology/theology of your choice, they all rank humans as above other life. So while it is considered ethical (for many) to kill non-humans, people are in a different category, and should not be killed. I agree that's how it is, but why? That's the bit I don't get. I could argue that it's self-centred and arrogant to say that a human life is more important than a chicken's life! Who are we to say that? Or are we God? > But what about war, or executing criminals? These deaths are considered necessary by society (or those in power), and the people in power do what they can to de-humanize those who will be killed. Think about how " the enemy " is portrayed in war propaganda, and how dignity is stripped from condemned criminals. That's so we can feel justified in killing them. I think that's partly why I call my child " it " . It's my attempt to dehumanise it. From a logic and moral point of view, I don't have much problem with the concept of slaughtering living creatures if they are a nuisance to us or we need their meat. > As far as pregnancy termination and infanticide, at some point the embryo/fetus/infant becomes human enough to be considered unethical to kill. Deciding when that point is is the key issue in any " abortion " debate. [i prefer the wording " pregnancy termination " , because the word abortion is already very biased -- look it up in a dictionary.] So the boundaries there are arbitrary and subjective. They aren't set in stone. Everyone's entitled to their opinion on it, right? No! That's apparently not right. Society somehow thinks it has the right to set boundaries. How do they determine those boundaries, and with what justification? I'm still missing something in all this. > So, all of this comes about because most humans feel the need to be special .... if one does not feel this need, it may seem odd that others do. But they do, and the societies people create apply this principle, and stuff follows stuff. Mmmm... yes, but other things in the universe could be special too. Of course most living creatures have a self-preservation streak in them, and I imagine we could now produce computers with self-preservation built-in to them. Why should human self-preservation be so heavily weighted compared to anything else? > --Liz > who is used to giving lectures like this to her kids, Are they purely lectures, or do you encourage debate? There are at least two sides to most stories, and that's what life is all about. > though not on this deep a level Later perhaps?? Good thoughts, Liz. Thanks. + Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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