Re: AS and parenting and 's post

[Guest guest]

Helen,

Thanks for thinking about my earlier post and coming back with

an understanding reply. Some comments below:

> I have to say that an initial reading of your response to Aimee and took

my breath away. As in, " *gasp!* surely to God he can't be serious!!! I have AS,

I am a mom and *I* don't, and never have, thought like that! .. "

Yes, well I was aware that the intensity of my reaction to the birth of

a child was unusual, and that it's hard for the majority of people to

even imagine the feelings I had and still have about it. For most of

the last 37 years I've just had to bottle my feelings up because I

didn't think I could count on much sympathy or understanding, but then

I detected some traces of these same feelings in Aimee and 's

descriptions of their husbands' reactions, and I was also emboldened

by some similar traces in Ron H's new book, so I thought I'd take the

risk of some adverse reactions here on Aspires and get some of it off my

chest in the hope that it might help others to throw some light on why

other Aspies don't always make the perfect Dads their partners might

wish for.

I think it's fair to say that the whole issue of childbirth and child

rearing is largely under the influence of reproductive instincts and

hormones over which most parents have little control. Females I

daresay, probably more so than males, so I don't find it at all

surprising that you, Helen, can't personally relate to such feelings

and thoughts yourself.

> .... - but anyway, I initially processed your words as an NS might ... with

abject horror.

Although personally I don't logically or emotionally understand the

horror of it, I see this as perfectly normal on your part.

> But then I thought, if you strip away all the emotionalism, yeah, this makes

sense - to another AS. It is not meant as malicious, cruel, pathologically

narcissistic, cold or whatever. It is simply an honest statement of how you

feel, shared in the spirit of generosity and great trust of this group. Whether

or not they can understand is another matter, but you made this deeply personal

and painful offering to them in the spirit of greater enlightenment.

Exactly, this is correct.

> Some AS chose not to have children (or that would be their choice) for reasons

that don't have anything to do with disliking children. Their reasoning is based

on very practical and responsible considerations, that many NS are aware of,

too, but psychological/biological urges over-ride all the rational

considerations. For example: the impact to the planet's already over-burdened

ecosystem, and the consequences of over-population to future generations of

humans, not to mention to the rest of the life forms on this planet.

Yes, in my case all that kind of logical and practical reasoning has

completely overridden any desire to reproduce or extend my gene line

ever since those traumatic pregnancies and birth I described previously.

Mind you, in the early days of that first marriage, before our

relationship deteriorated, I daresay I would have accepted pregnancy and

a child. I only changed my views later when the wife had deliberately

ignored my clearly expressed wish to defer having a family until we

sorted out our relationship. Call it my Aspie stubbornness, if you

like.

> I also strongly believe that the AS person's experience as a child will

heavily influence his/her decision as to whether to have children of their own.

Yes, that might have had some limited bearing in my case. I was a WW2

orphan brought up by grandparents. Whilst they doted on me and did

everything for me, I can imagine that the very fact that I landed on

them constituted a severely disrupting nuisance to their lives.

> However, just as in the NS population, there are also a great number of AS

that had very complicated childhoods and adulthoods, and therefore, consider it

incomprehensible to inflict that sort of punishment upon another as yet to be

born human being.

>

> I have a very long time now self-acknowledged AS friend. He recalls himself in

the most unflattering terms as a child, in no small part because of his parents

attitude towards him when he was a child, and the bullying (and beatings) he

received from peers.

>

> Through hard experience, he learned to adopt NS behavior, and so seemingly,

suddenly to his own recollection, at adolescence, he become acceptable, even

shyly popular, to his peers - and his parents. Therefore in his mind, the state

of childhood was highly unpleasant and undesirable, and adolescence/young

adulthood gained you admission to the human race.

>

> What was happening is that, like many AS, he learned not to draw attention to

himself, and though liked by everyone, he remained, and still remains, guarded

and private, thus protecting himself from further mental assault.

>

> Unfortunately, the price to be paid for that sort of semi-secluded life is

that you don't get the bigger perspective that to some degree everyone has those

experiences, everyone feels like that at some point - but you live and you

learn. Some AS feel their situation is unique, or at least rare, because they

lack the bigger perspective.

>

> I have also long maintained that we (AS) seem to think so differently, not

just because our brains are wired differently, but the fact that some AS

withdraw (usually to pursue special interests) at an early age, to protect

themselves. But in doing so, it can rob them of greater social learning.

>

> My friend viewed himself as unlikeable, unknowable, and very high maintenance

as a young person, and what was imprinted in his mind is that childhood is

" difficult " for both the child - and those charged with raising them. Seeing

things from his point of view, what logical AS person would want to inflict this

on an unborn child, when the world already has a surplus of human beings?

I can well imagine the effect of all that on your friend, but I don't

think I can claim those causes as being responsible for my own attitude.

I had a reasonably happy and contented childhood, went to good

schools, performed quite well there, and didn't suffer undue bullying,

even though I must have stood out as a bit of an oddity.

But I do admit to having taken on the attitude that every child born is

one too many for the Earth to support. Why do humans put so much

value the sanctity of individual lives when the whole future of the

human race is threatened by overpopulation? It doesn't make sense.

> My friend's story, however, has a happy ending. He did have a child

(planned)later on. As a father, he was often bewildered and befuddled by his

child. But he did learn to parent, he learned to enjoy parenting, and loves his

son (now an adult) as any parent would,

" any parent " doesn't include me. I definitely don't love my child, and

I would really be much more content if I were to hear that it, and now

some grandchildren, hadn't survived an accident.

> and it was a positive experience for him. It helped that his long term

marriage is stable, and his wife is/was a " take charge " kind of person.

Nearly everyone talks about parenting being a positive experience, but

it's a strongly negative one in my case, and that's what makes me feel

I must have turned into a nasty person.

> This experience changed his view of children and parenting. But I can well

imagine that if he did not have a positive experience, he would have maintained

his old views of children and parenting.

My experience has worked the other way round. Until the time of my 1st

wife's traumatic pregnancies, I wasn't particularly anti- kids and

families. That all changed when I became a father. I did keep trying

to see if I could turn it into something positive for about 18 years,

but in the back of my mind I could never eliminate the thought that the

child ought not to be alive, and I was responsible that it was.

> , I thank you for sharing what you feel, as brutal as it was for most of

our readers (myself included.) If we can listen with open hearts and open minds,

and not *personalize* what is being said on this board, this is one path to

understanding and empathizing with one another. (Thanks Newland for

continuing to make this happen!)

Thank you too, Helen, for reading and thinking about and understanding

some of it. I'm still not sure whether these nasty thoughts and

feelings would be better swept under the carpet and I try to forget

about them, or whether talking about them might help in some way.

To and Greg, I appreciate your follow-up supportive responses,

and hope to get back with comments on those shortly.

[Guest guest]

Hi Jennie,

Thanks very much for your thoughtful reply. I'm finding

getting these kind of straight responses without any emotional or blame

overtones very supportive.

It's true a lot of our thinking is governed by upbringing and by any

religious beliefs that were part of that upbringing, and it sounds to me

in your case that religious beliefs won against the distressing

expectations you brought with you from childhood. I get the impression

that it was largely your faith that supported and encouraged you against

those doubts in the early stages, and only later the results of your

preparation, learning, and perhaps some hormone-reinforced instincts

kicked in. Would that be right?

I know it's hard to look on doubts in any sort of positive light, but

the fact that you also had doubts kind of encourages me in that they

make me realise my own doubts, whilst they were very severe, weren't

completely unique.

It certainly sounds as if you're making a good job of it by doing things

your own way instead of copying others, and you're to be congratulated

on that.

But the story of your motivation and outcome seems to have very little

in common with mine. First I had doubts about the state of the

relationship I had with my wife at the time, Second, because of the

first, I didn't want us to have a child at that time, and she knew it,

Third, I see nothing morally wrong with abortion, Fourth, religion

means very little to me. These four differences account for you and I

coming to very different conclusions when we faced our respective doubts

phases, and from that point on the divergence between our paths gets

wider and wider.

You coped and I didn't. You love your kids and I don't, You have a

decent relationship with your kids and I have none. If anyone tried to

hurt yours you'd cheerfully take off their heads, whereas I'd positively

encourage someone to take off my child's and grandchildrens' heads if I

could find a neat way of doing it.

I do certainly have serious doubts about my ability to play a father

rôle, but it isn't just those doubts that have kept me at a safe

distance for the past 18 years. The problem is that I still feel the

child's very existence is a mistake for which I bear some

responsibility, and as such it's up to me to do something to correct

that mistake. Cold logic.

On the whole I try to avoid going down this train of thought path

because I perceive it as dangerous, but from time to time people

suggest I ought to try and re-establish contact with the child and try

and make amends. My first answer to them is yes, I could probably

put on an act and try to start going through a reconciliation process

with that family, but how do I know I could trust myself not to use it

as a cover for some harmful plot which the cold logic part of me wants

to carry out? I don't, so my second answer is no, it would be too

dangerous. Better and safer for me to deliberately remain ignorant of

where that family lives and of how to get in touch with any of them.

I hope my dark thoughts aren't upsetting anyone. As far as I know they

are simply the consequence of Aspie cold logic once all the emotional

and instinctive hormonal elements to parenting have been removed.

--- Re: Re: I'm new- wanted to introduce

myself

I can see how you would feel this way . When I became pregnant with

my first child I had a lot of turmoil through out the nine months

preparing myself. Because of who I am and what I believe 'getting rid

of' the child was not an option, wasn't even thought of. However I was

quite terrified largely because I felt I did not have appropriate

mothering feelings and assumed I would also not have any mothering

instincts. I was convinced I would be a horrible mother like my mother.

This was extremely distressing. I spent a great deal of time thinking

about this, praying about it, and learning whatever I could. I learned

over time as a mom that just like any other part of life there is no

certain way one has to be. There are a few basics one needs to do...

keep them safe and fed... but as far as relational wise... it is what it

IS. I am who I am, my kids actually like me being me. Oddly they don't

seem to care or be embarrassed by me. Even though I am not like most

other moms out there, don't fit in to well with the mommy scene I am

being a good mom. Largely because I chose to be. I think most of my lack

of feeling was caused by the larger feeling of being overwhelmed and

even worse feeling like I had to be a certain way. The more I let go of

the societal picture of 'mom' and just be who I am the more 'normal'

feelings I have had. I love my kids, if anyone tried to hurt them I

would cheerfully take off their heads. I just don't feel I have the same

kind of squishy lovey feelings others describe. I have a much easier

time stepping back and letting my kids grow up, letting them make

mistakes so they can learn, etc. than do my more normal counterparts.

All in all I have a decent relationship with my kids. I know this

because they come to me with their problems, they will disagree with me,

and they like to 'hang out' with me at times. Anyway... what I'm trying

to say here is perhaps some of your lack of feelings is the result of

feeling like being a dad HAS to be a certain 'thing' that you have in

your head. And by releasing yourself from societal expectation and just

being YOU, you might well end up having a great relationship with your

kid. You may surprise yourself. I sure did.

Jennie AS

[Guest guest]

,

Your response to Jennie was informative.

I extracted a specific paragraph which I have attcahed below.

But the story of your motivation and outcome seems to

have very little in common with mine. First I had doubts about the state

of the relationship I had with my wife at the time, Second, because of

the first, I didn't want us to have a child at that time, and she knew

it, Fourth, religion means very little to me. These four differences account

for you and I coming to very different conclusions when we faced our respective

doubts phases, and from that point on the divergence between our paths

gets wider and wider.

Let me deal with the individual points

from this paragraph.

1. First I had doubts about the state

of the relationship I had with my wife at the time

I never had any doubts about the state

of the relationship when first marries except for the subject of children.

Apart from that I thought everything was fine for many years, but

I have since learned that my wife thought there were real issues from the

get go. She put it this way. Its as if you never got married

as you kept doing things the same way and acting like a single man. I

was faithful but still saw myself as an individual not as part of a partnership

which I had to put first. Selfish I know, but I did not seem to learn

how to do that.

2. Second, because of the first, I didn't

want us to have a child at that time, and she knew it.

In my case I had discussed waiting to

have children as I did not think I was ready, but I could not keep saying

no to my wife as I found it was something she really wanted and for her

was self actualising. I did not want to disappoint her. Once

the babies were born I could see how happy she was and that was enough

for me. I also felt that making sure she was able to stay at home

with them was a very important thing I could do so focussed very much on

career to make that happen. Wrong focus I found but too late. Also

agreeing to have children had consequences which has impacted my wife severely,

as I was unable to be a good parent. I worked hard and provided,

but I was challenged in being able to emotionally support my wife and kids

adequately. My wife had to sacrifice a lot for the sake of stability.

3. Third, I see nothing morally wrong

with abortion,

I see nothing wrong with abortion due

to the misery and abuse perpetrated on unwanted children, however

there needs to be some basic rules used that protects mother and child

interests. I see adoption for those who cannot have children as a

positive thing although it is not for me.

4. Fourth, religion means very little

to me.

I class myself as an agnostic and I

inwardly rebel at people who tell me how to think and what to believe in.

For me discovery of any idea worth believing in is a self discovery

and enlightenment that we are all experiencing, and accepting blindly what

someone tells us is not being true to yourself and is intellectually lazy.

I have approached this by researching all the philosophical

ideas and there is merit to some degree or other in many of them.

There are many paths to the same truth in my opinion and how you get there

is not as important as what you get out of the journey and the meaning

it has for you. You must always have as the central theme to do no

harm and treat others as you want to be treated. This is important

when thinking about your family or others. Because of the Aspergers,

I have caused harm but it was due to unintended consequences. Having the

diagnosis puts behaviours and consequences of them in the right context.

It did for me.

In closing, I differ from your experience

as I saw the children as positive influences in my life, but I was unable

to be the ideal parent due to the Aspergers. If it was just me I

would not have had kids, but my wife's happiness was more important and

it was an absolute deal breaker if I had stopped her realising that. That

said however, she had to bring them up more or less on her own as my parenting

was haphazard and on my terms. My arrested emotional development

is one of the major factors in this.

Greg dx AS at 53

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for your very rapid response and vote of confidence.

> I guess what is most surprising to me is that while I can

> theoretically understand the emotional disconnectedness, you appear to

> actively want the child and grandchildren to not exist. So this seems

> more than 'cold' or 'logical' Aspieness as I have understood it.

I believe I can explain this in cold logical terms. Let me try:

In my book, all children should be entitled to be brought up in a

loving, caring, two-partner solid relationship that's strong enough to

withstand the pressures that go with raising a family. OK, perhaps

the real world isn't always like that, but as an Aspie perfectionist,

that's still how I see it.

So in the case of my 1st wife and myself, things weren't quite right

between us when the question of children first arose, and my view was

that we should sort our relationship out first, *before* we embarked on

a family. For the time being, it was agreed she would stay on the

pill, but in retrospect I'm not sure how happy she was with that

decision. Anyway, not one, but *two* " accidental " pregnancies

occurred. I could perhaps accept that one was a true accident, but

not two.

Instead of our relationship improving, because this 2nd accident felt

like a betrayal of my wishes, things between us went downhill rather

than up, and my book started to say that if this pregnancy goes to

term, the child isn't going to get a happy couple as its mother and

father. Therefore (cold logic), the pregnancy should be terminated.

Well maybe it was because maternal reproductive hormones were taking

control, but anyway, she didn't agree. We became at loggerheads and

couldn't resolve this disagreement. I wanted it terminated, and she

didn't. The follow-up is in one of my earlier posts.

> Once you have stepped away and are no longer involved, why are they

> still so abhorrent to you?

No, abhorrent isn't the right description. I don't hate the child as

such; it's the fact that it was a big mistake in the first place. It

shouldn't ever have existed, and because I'm partly responsible, I

still feel I ought to do something to erase that mistake. It faced a

poor upbringing just as I'd feared, with mother and father against each

other, instead of being in a happy family, so the whole scenario falls

so far short of my idealistic vision about how any child I'm responsible

for should be brought up, that no amount of post-event dabbling can put

things right, other than one extreme option......

..... but I avoid going down that road.

> I'm hoping I don't sound judgmental, or that I have misunderstood and

> mis-stated your feelings in any way.

No, it doesn't come over as judgemental to me at all. The only

misundertanding from my point of view is where you've use the word

'abhorrent', and I think I've explained that now.

If you still feel I've departed from cold logic somewhere in all this,

I'm still listening.

Thanks again for your helpful comments.

[Guest guest]

Hi again Greg,

> Your response to Jennie was informative. I extracted a specific

> paragraph which I have attcahed below......

> ....Let me deal with the individual points from this paragraph.

Good. Thanks. OK, I'm editting this now so my original text should

show as double quoted, your comments as single quoted and my new

comments as normal unquoted. Hope this all shows up clearly.

>> 1. First I had doubts about the state of the relationship I had

>> with my wife at the time

> I never had any doubts about the state of the relationship when first

> marries except for the subject of children. Apart from that I thought

> everything was fine for many years, but I have since learned that my

> wife thought there were real issues from the get go. She put it this

> way. Its as if you never got married as you kept doing things the same

> way and acting like a single man. I was faithful but still saw myself as

> an individual not as part of a partnership which I had to put first.

> Selfish I know, but I did not seem to learn how to do that.

We have a parallel there but my timescale was different. I only

thought everything was fine for a few weeks after we married, and my

wife must have only thought it was fine for an even shorter time because

soon she started a lot of weeping. I tried to ask, but she was unable

to explain what the problem was. The weeping distressed me a lot, but

no amount of probing on my part brought any explanation other than a

statement that she thought I ought to know. Knowing that there was some

underlying problem but I couldn't find out what it was, eventually got

to me and I felt frustrated by it. However for the time being I lived in

hope that we'd eventually be able to resolve it. In retrospect maybe

she started to detect some of my AS traits, or maybe she didn't like

some habits from my old-fashioned upbringing, but to this day I've never

found out what it really was. So it was with this unresolved issue

hanging over us and after we'd moved to a foreign country where I was

very busy with project work that she first broached the question of

starting a family, and I said we weren't ready. At the time, I thought

she'd accepted that we weren't ready, and that staying on the pill was

sufficient precaution against pregnancy. I must have been wrong because

two pregnancies later she wasn't prepared to abort.

Greg, I don't see why you say retaining your individuality was selfish.

Doesn't a couple simply comprise two individuals who cooperate and

share and are complimentary? Outside observers might not always be able

to distinguish the individuality, but I'm sure the partners always can.

>> 2. Second, because of the first, I didn't want us to have a child at

>> that time, and she knew it.

> In my case I had discussed waiting to have children as I did not think I

> was ready, but I could not keep saying no to my wife as I found it was

> something she really wanted and for her was self actualising. I did not

> want to disappoint her. Once the babies were born I could see how happy

> she was and that was enough for me. I also felt that making sure she was

> able to stay at home with them was a very important thing I could do so

> focussed very much on career to make that happen. Wrong focus I found

> but too late. Also agreeing to have children had consequences which has

> impacted my wife severely, as I was unable to be a good parent. I worked

> hard and provided, but I was challenged in being able to emotionally

> support my wife and kids adequately. My wife had to sacrifice a lot for

> the sake of stability.

I wonder if you originally thought that if you'd waited, you would

eventually become readier and be able to make a stronger family basis.

That's certainly how I felt about it at the beginning. Although I

suppose I did have some misgivings, I wasn't dead set against the idea

of a family at the outset. That only emerged after my wife's betrayal.

>> 3. Third, I see nothing morally wrong with abortion,

> I see nothing wrong with abortion due to the misery and abuse

> perpetrated on unwanted children, however there needs to be some basic

> rules used that protects mother and child interests. I see adoption for

> those who cannot have children as a positive thing although it is not

> for me.

I agree with you there.

> 4. Fourth, religion means very little to me.

> I class myself as an agnostic and I inwardly rebel at people who tell me

> how to think and what to believe in. For me discovery of any idea worth

> believing in is a self discovery and enlightenment that we are all

> experiencing, and accepting blindly what someone tells us is not being

> true to yourself and is intellectually lazy. I have approached this by

> researching all the philosophical ideas and there is merit to some

> degree or other in many of them. There are many paths to the same truth

> in my opinion and how you get there is not as important as what you get

> out of the journey and the meaning it has for you. You must always have

> as the central theme to do no harm and treat others as you want to be

> treated. This is important when thinking about your family or others.

I agree with all that, too

> Because of the Aspergers, I have caused harm but it was due to

> unintended consequences. Having the diagnosis puts behaviours and

> consequences of them in the right context. It did for me.

But as far as my first wife and child were concerned, diagnosis came

decades too late in my case. I was already long divorced, made sure

I'd lost the child when grandchilden came along, and remarried by the

time I was diagnosed.

> In closing, I differ from your experience as I saw the children as

> positive influences in my life, but I was unable to be the ideal parent

> due to the Aspergers. If it was just me I would not have had kids, but

> my wife's happiness was more important and it was an absolute deal

> breaker if I had stopped her realising that.

In retrospect, a dealbreaker is what mine should have come to long

before it all got into this mess, But unfortunately the mess crept up

on me and I had no idea where it was all heading at the time.

> That said however, she had to bring them up more or less on her

> own as my parenting was haphazard and on my terms. My arrested

> emotional development is one of the major factors in this.

So you're blaming AS for being a less than perfect father, but it

doesn't sound all that bad to me. If I understand correctly you did a

helluva lot more than just be a sperm donor.

I suppose I can blame AS for failing to choose a suitable and compatible

partner in the first place. Funnily enough I have a dreamy belief that

if I'd found the right partner and we'd found unrequited love, I could

have gone to town in true Aspie fashion on the family project and made a

good Dad. Very easy to say that though, now that I'm safely way

beyond it ever happening in my lifetime.