Guest guest Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Elenii, Thanks for understanding the magnitude of our tragedies. I can appreciate your desire to find answers to your questions. I am a little confused, however, because in your original post you asked for proof regarding some statements made regarding 's site. Now you are asking for proof that implants cause disease, which is a much, much more complex issue. I would like to make a point that I have made over and over again. If proof existed beyond a shadow of a doubt that implants caused disease, there would be no controversy now, would there? There would be no need for hearings and panel advisories and court rulings and all the other garbage that has been going on for decades now. If we had all the proof we needed, we would not be at odds with the medical community over our desperate need for help. Obviously, there is some complexities here that are beyond scientific knowledge that we have at the present. If the medical community and researchers do not ask the right questions, they will never get the right answers. I am not sure they want to, with so much money at stake. I also wanted to kindly point out that if you haven't read anything regarding the problems associated with other medical devices, then you aren't looking hard enough! It's there, and in fact, we just posted a few studies in the last day or two, (which are already archived in our files section under studies of harm from silicone.) As much as we'd like to help you in your quest for answers, I think this is an involved line of discussion best taken somewhere else. We are trying to remain stress free and heal. I doubt that any of us here have the time to get into a long winded debate with you about why some women get sick and others don't and what constitutes proof. There are other places you can do that, so can I suggest you go there? Our main objective here is to help women get better and share what has helped us. If you ever decide you need that kind of help, I am sure we will be here when you need us. Patty --- In , Elenii Light <elenii2@g...> wrote: > > Hello, > Thank you to all of you who took time to respond to my question. I thought > I'd briefly answer some of the respones. They're way down the line now, and > as I received digest, my original post/respones aren't easily found unless I > look into archives. Anyway... > Rogene, thank you. I would like proof for the same reason anyone would want > proof about any sort of strong opinion and symtpoms described here. It's > perfectly reasonable to ask for actual evidence in many cases. Sometimes, > however, I know that's hard to provide. We look at the symptoms and make our > best guess. But if I could have actual hard evidence that implants are the > absolute cause of sudden disease, it would at least help me form a more > definitive conclusion. > Group, there is no argument that you have experienced trauma, tragedy, and > difficulty on receiving, during, or after implantation. My questions are > whether you know that the implants actually caused your troubles. It's > reasonable that you can conclude that they have. Yet, there are many similar > prostheses that people have put in yearly, such as hip replacements, toothe > replacements, eye replacements, any joint replacement, pacemakers, or any > such device. Yet, I don't read anything along those lines causing > difficulties or diseases. > There are a percentage of women who get these diseases, a rather small > percentage. And there are those who experience virtually no problems, no > disease from breast implants. I know a lady personally who has had them for > 20 years. She has had no reported or known problems. I'm sorry that this > does not corroborate the reason for this forum. > I tried to convey my sympathy and respect for the many of you whose > situation is validly expressed here. I'd do nothing to demean you. I wrote > someone here offlist, who also kindly responded. Yet, what I read from her > response was similar to " It's just a matter of time. " My friend, however, is > among several I know who experience no grave health problems. > Again, according to what I know, the studies show only that the percentage > contracting a disease is small. If we can't prove that each and every woman > with implants, whether saline or silicone, will get a life- threatening > disease or health problem, why should we decide that every woman with > implants will? > I know my statements may cause you some raised emotions here. Please try to > understand what I'm saying. Please be calm in your answers. I'm not > presenting my argument to cause you any more grief than you're now > experiencing; I'm not invalidating what you believe. I'd be the first to > support any woman who contracted problems with respect for her, her > feelings, her experience and trauma as result of implantation, IF i *knew > without a shadow of reasonable doubt* that the above was caused by breast > implantation. I say this because many of us are genetically prone to some of > the difficulties incurred. Many of us would have marital problems, > arthrosis, or any other health issue. > And to decided that you know that those of us with no serious health > problems who have implants do not value our health, let me tell you, you are > completely wrong. I know of no woman who doesn't value her health, as do I. > But for me to go around predicting that all women with implants *will* > experience severe health problems is erroneous. If I can provide actual > scientific evidence, whatever that may be, that only a percentage of > precious women will experience severe problems, then it's reasonable to say. > If I can't provide evidence that all women will get sick, then it might be > better to present statements along these lines, rather than deciding that I > have this prediction correctly. > My friend, with the implants for 20 years and who has no problems, > including others that I know, proves that some women do not experience > problems from breast implants. You are the percentage of women who are. This > is tragic. > Elenii > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Well said Patty - thank you Cherie > > > > Hello, > > Thank you to all of you who took time to respond to my question. > I thought > > I'd briefly answer some of the respones. They're way down the line > now, and > > as I received digest, my original post/respones aren't easily > found unless I > > look into archives. Anyway... > > Rogene, thank you. I would like proof for the same reason anyone > would want > > proof about any sort of strong opinion and symtpoms described > here. It's > > perfectly reasonable to ask for actual evidence in many cases. > Sometimes, > > however, I know that's hard to provide. We look at the symptoms > and make our > > best guess. But if I could have actual hard evidence that implants > are the > > absolute cause of sudden disease, it would at least help me form a > more > > definitive conclusion. > > Group, there is no argument that you have experienced trauma, > tragedy, and > > difficulty on receiving, during, or after implantation. My > questions are > > whether you know that the implants actually caused your troubles. > It's > > reasonable that you can conclude that they have. Yet, there are > many similar > > prostheses that people have put in yearly, such as hip > replacements, toothe > > replacements, eye replacements, any joint replacement, pacemakers, > or any > > such device. Yet, I don't read anything along those lines causing > > difficulties or diseases. > > There are a percentage of women who get these diseases, a rather > small > > percentage. And there are those who experience virtually no > problems, no > > disease from breast implants. I know a lady personally who has had > them for > > 20 years. She has had no reported or known problems. I'm sorry > that this > > does not corroborate the reason for this forum. > > I tried to convey my sympathy and respect for the many of you > whose > > situation is validly expressed here. I'd do nothing to demean you. > I wrote > > someone here offlist, who also kindly responded. Yet, what I read > from her > > response was similar to " It's just a matter of time. " My friend, > however, is > > among several I know who experience no grave health problems. > > Again, according to what I know, the studies show only that the > percentage > > contracting a disease is small. If we can't prove that each and > every woman > > with implants, whether saline or silicone, will get a life- > threatening > > disease or health problem, why should we decide that every woman > with > > implants will? > > I know my statements may cause you some raised emotions here. > Please try to > > understand what I'm saying. Please be calm in your answers. I'm not > > presenting my argument to cause you any more grief than you're now > > experiencing; I'm not invalidating what you believe. I'd be the > first to > > support any woman who contracted problems with respect for her, her > > feelings, her experience and trauma as result of implantation, IF > i *knew > > without a shadow of reasonable doubt* that the above was caused by > breast > > implantation. I say this because many of us are genetically prone > to some of > > the difficulties incurred. Many of us would have marital problems, > > arthrosis, or any other health issue. > > And to decided that you know that those of us with no serious > health > > problems who have implants do not value our health, let me tell > you, you are > > completely wrong. I know of no woman who doesn't value her health, > as do I. > > But for me to go around predicting that all women with implants > *will* > > experience severe health problems is erroneous. If I can provide > actual > > scientific evidence, whatever that may be, that only a percentage > of > > precious women will experience severe problems, then it's > reasonable to say. > > If I can't provide evidence that all women will get sick, then it > might be > > better to present statements along these lines, rather than > deciding that I > > have this prediction correctly. > > My friend, with the implants for 20 years and who has no problems, > > including others that I know, proves that some women do not > experience > > problems from breast implants. You are the percentage of women who > are. This > > is tragic. > > Elenii > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 " But if I could have actual hard evidence that implants are the absolute cause of sudden disease, it would at least help me form a more definitive conclusion. " I would ask whether Elenii understands the concept of statistics. In complex issues like causation, both legally and medically, there rarely is an " absolute " cause. This very question sounds more confrontive than a sincere desire for answers. > > > > Hello, > > Thank you to all of you who took time to respond to my question. > I thought > > I'd briefly answer some of the respones. They're way down the line > now, and > > as I received digest, my original post/respones aren't easily > found unless I > > look into archives. Anyway... > > Rogene, thank you. I would like proof for the same reason anyone > would want > > proof about any sort of strong opinion and symtpoms described > here. It's > > perfectly reasonable to ask for actual evidence in many cases. > Sometimes, > > however, I know that's hard to provide. We look at the symptoms > and make our > > best guess. But if I could have actual hard evidence that implants > are the > > absolute cause of sudden disease, it would at least help me form a > more > > definitive conclusion. > > Group, there is no argument that you have experienced trauma, > tragedy, and > > difficulty on receiving, during, or after implantation. My > questions are > > whether you know that the implants actually caused your troubles. > It's > > reasonable that you can conclude that they have. Yet, there are > many similar > > prostheses that people have put in yearly, such as hip > replacements, toothe > > replacements, eye replacements, any joint replacement, pacemakers, > or any > > such device. Yet, I don't read anything along those lines causing > > difficulties or diseases. > > There are a percentage of women who get these diseases, a rather > small > > percentage. And there are those who experience virtually no > problems, no > > disease from breast implants. I know a lady personally who has had > them for > > 20 years. She has had no reported or known problems. I'm sorry > that this > > does not corroborate the reason for this forum. > > I tried to convey my sympathy and respect for the many of you > whose > > situation is validly expressed here. I'd do nothing to demean you. > I wrote > > someone here offlist, who also kindly responded. Yet, what I read > from her > > response was similar to " It's just a matter of time. " My friend, > however, is > > among several I know who experience no grave health problems. > > Again, according to what I know, the studies show only that the > percentage > > contracting a disease is small. If we can't prove that each and > every woman > > with implants, whether saline or silicone, will get a life- > threatening > > disease or health problem, why should we decide that every woman > with > > implants will? > > I know my statements may cause you some raised emotions here. > Please try to > > understand what I'm saying. Please be calm in your answers. I'm not > > presenting my argument to cause you any more grief than you're now > > experiencing; I'm not invalidating what you believe. I'd be the > first to > > support any woman who contracted problems with respect for her, her > > feelings, her experience and trauma as result of implantation, IF > i *knew > > without a shadow of reasonable doubt* that the above was caused by > breast > > implantation. I say this because many of us are genetically prone > to some of > > the difficulties incurred. Many of us would have marital problems, > > arthrosis, or any other health issue. > > And to decided that you know that those of us with no serious > health > > problems who have implants do not value our health, let me tell > you, you are > > completely wrong. I know of no woman who doesn't value her health, > as do I. > > But for me to go around predicting that all women with implants > *will* > > experience severe health problems is erroneous. If I can provide > actual > > scientific evidence, whatever that may be, that only a percentage > of > > precious women will experience severe problems, then it's > reasonable to say. > > If I can't provide evidence that all women will get sick, then it > might be > > better to present statements along these lines, rather than > deciding that I > > have this prediction correctly. > > My friend, with the implants for 20 years and who has no problems, > > including others that I know, proves that some women do not > experience > > problems from breast implants. You are the percentage of women who > are. This > > is tragic. > > Elenii > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 " I know a lady personally who has had them for 20 years. She has had no reported or known problems. I'm sorry that this does not corroborate the reason for this forum. " This would be what the manufacturers like to call 'anecdotal evidence' - eg statistically irrelevant. Therefore, since it is irrelevant, it can neither corrroborate nor support what you think is the 'reason' for this forum. > > > > Hello, > > Thank you to all of you who took time to respond to my question. > I thought > > I'd briefly answer some of the respones. They're way down the line > now, and > > as I received digest, my original post/respones aren't easily > found unless I > > look into archives. Anyway... > > Rogene, thank you. I would like proof for the same reason anyone > would want > > proof about any sort of strong opinion and symtpoms described > here. It's > > perfectly reasonable to ask for actual evidence in many cases. > Sometimes, > > however, I know that's hard to provide. We look at the symptoms > and make our > > best guess. But if I could have actual hard evidence that implants > are the > > absolute cause of sudden disease, it would at least help me form a > more > > definitive conclusion. > > Group, there is no argument that you have experienced trauma, > tragedy, and > > difficulty on receiving, during, or after implantation. My > questions are > > whether you know that the implants actually caused your troubles. > It's > > reasonable that you can conclude that they have. Yet, there are > many similar > > prostheses that people have put in yearly, such as hip > replacements, toothe > > replacements, eye replacements, any joint replacement, pacemakers, > or any > > such device. Yet, I don't read anything along those lines causing > > difficulties or diseases. > > There are a percentage of women who get these diseases, a rather > small > > percentage. And there are those who experience virtually no > problems, no > > disease from breast implants. I know a lady personally who has had > them for > > 20 years. She has had no reported or known problems. I'm sorry > that this > > does not corroborate the reason for this forum. > > I tried to convey my sympathy and respect for the many of you > whose > > situation is validly expressed here. I'd do nothing to demean you. > I wrote > > someone here offlist, who also kindly responded. Yet, what I read > from her > > response was similar to " It's just a matter of time. " My friend, > however, is > > among several I know who experience no grave health problems. > > Again, according to what I know, the studies show only that the > percentage > > contracting a disease is small. If we can't prove that each and > every woman > > with implants, whether saline or silicone, will get a life- > threatening > > disease or health problem, why should we decide that every woman > with > > implants will? > > I know my statements may cause you some raised emotions here. > Please try to > > understand what I'm saying. Please be calm in your answers. I'm not > > presenting my argument to cause you any more grief than you're now > > experiencing; I'm not invalidating what you believe. I'd be the > first to > > support any woman who contracted problems with respect for her, her > > feelings, her experience and trauma as result of implantation, IF > i *knew > > without a shadow of reasonable doubt* that the above was caused by > breast > > implantation. I say this because many of us are genetically prone > to some of > > the difficulties incurred. Many of us would have marital problems, > > arthrosis, or any other health issue. > > And to decided that you know that those of us with no serious > health > > problems who have implants do not value our health, let me tell > you, you are > > completely wrong. I know of no woman who doesn't value her health, > as do I. > > But for me to go around predicting that all women with implants > *will* > > experience severe health problems is erroneous. If I can provide > actual > > scientific evidence, whatever that may be, that only a percentage > of > > precious women will experience severe problems, then it's > reasonable to say. > > If I can't provide evidence that all women will get sick, then it > might be > > better to present statements along these lines, rather than > deciding that I > > have this prediction correctly. > > My friend, with the implants for 20 years and who has no problems, > > including others that I know, proves that some women do not > experience > > problems from breast implants. You are the percentage of women who > are. This > > is tragic. > > Elenii > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 LOL! . . . Spoken like a lawyer! Hugs, Rogene --- Molly Bloom <mollyb54@...> wrote: > > " I know a lady personally who has had them for 20 > years. She has had no reported or > known problems. I'm sorry that this does not > corroborate the reason for this forum. " > > This would be what the manufacturers like to call > 'anecdotal evidence' - eg statistically > irrelevant. Therefore, since it is irrelevant, it > can neither corrroborate nor support what > you think is the 'reason' for this forum. > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > Thank you to all of you who took time to > respond to my question. > > I thought > > > I'd briefly answer some of the respones. They're > way down the line > > now, and > > > as I received digest, my original post/respones > aren't easily > > found unless I > > > look into archives. Anyway... > > > Rogene, thank you. I would like proof for the > same reason anyone > > would want > > > proof about any sort of strong opinion and > symtpoms described > > here. It's > > > perfectly reasonable to ask for actual evidence > in many cases. > > Sometimes, > > > however, I know that's hard to provide. We look > at the symptoms > > and make our > > > best guess. But if I could have actual hard > evidence that implants > > are the > > > absolute cause of sudden disease, it would at > least help me form a > > more > > > definitive conclusion. > > > Group, there is no argument that you have > experienced trauma, > > tragedy, and > > > difficulty on receiving, during, or after > implantation. My > > questions are > > > whether you know that the implants actually > caused your troubles. > > It's > > > reasonable that you can conclude that they have. > Yet, there are > > many similar > > > prostheses that people have put in yearly, such > as hip > > replacements, toothe > > > replacements, eye replacements, any joint > replacement, pacemakers, > > or any > > > such device. Yet, I don't read anything along > those lines causing > > > difficulties or diseases. > > > There are a percentage of women who get these > diseases, a rather > > small > > > percentage. And there are those who experience > virtually no > > problems, no > > > disease from breast implants. I know a lady > personally who has had > > them for > > > 20 years. She has had no reported or known > problems. I'm sorry > > that this > > > does not corroborate the reason for this forum. > > > I tried to convey my sympathy and respect for > the many of you > > whose > > > situation is validly expressed here. I'd do > nothing to demean you. > > I wrote > > > someone here offlist, who also kindly responded. > Yet, what I read > > from her > > > response was similar to " It's just a matter of > time. " My friend, > > however, is > > > among several I know who experience no grave > health problems. > > > Again, according to what I know, the studies > show only that the > > percentage > > > contracting a disease is small. If we can't > prove that each and > > every woman > > > with implants, whether saline or silicone, will > get a life- > > threatening > > > disease or health problem, why should we decide > that every woman > > with > > > implants will? > > > I know my statements may cause you some raised > emotions here. > > Please try to > > > understand what I'm saying. Please be calm in > your answers. I'm not > > > presenting my argument to cause you any more > grief than you're now > > > experiencing; I'm not invalidating what you > believe. I'd be the > > first to > > > support any woman who contracted problems with > respect for her, her > > > feelings, her experience and trauma as result of > implantation, IF > > i *knew > > > without a shadow of reasonable doubt* that the > above was caused by > > breast > > > implantation. I say this because many of us are > genetically prone > > to some of > === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Maybe it's just someone's way of laying the groundwork for the return of gel implants!!!! We need to be ready with a reaction to the media and our legislators (I think they have their hands full WITHOUT us)! I understand one group is poised to sue the FDA should they approve gel implants! Now that would be interesting! I wonder how many Brownies they have working there? Rogene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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