Re: Sidebar on stuff

[Guest guest]

Sherri -- excellent question! This is a tactic many nadas use

successfully on their children. It's part of the BPD experience.

I like how that " Clean Sweep " guy encourages people to let go of

their " stuff " . He says " You have the memory -- this is just a

thing. " You can let it go out into the world and you'll still have

your memory. It's not tied to this bundle of fabric, stuffing and

thread. (or whatever it's made of).

One lady wrote an essay in Real Simple magazine about her experience

with a fire destroying her home. After the ordeal, when she and her

family started over, she realized that there IS life after

your " stuff " . She had a clean slate -- but she was still who she

was and having stuff in boxes in the attic didn't change that. She

said she could think more clearly -- she realized that her stuff was

ruling her. She broke free.

If a toxic BPD is playing emotional blackmail games with your stuff -

- I say " LET IT GO " ......... Live each day in the moment, in the

present. Let the dust-gathering, yellowing remnants of the past go.

-Kyla

>

> From : " Nada has pulled this before

> on " stuff " -- she has no understanding that stuff means NOTHING to

> me, except for the occassional sentimental item, which is exactly

> what theses things are.

> How do I handle that piece of it? "

>

> really struck a chord with me on this question. My nada

has

> used this card often, along with the " Moving " card when she

decides

> she " no longer has a source of support " , etc. (she's " moved " three

> times since I've been NC). Part of me feels like I should just

let the

> things go, but there are a few things that are sentimental to me,

> although not important enough for me to break the NC. How have

you all

> handled it when this issue comes up?

> Sherri

>

[Guest guest]

Hmmmmm....

I don't have any leftover " stuff " . Nada threw all my things away,

every time I turned my back. My weebles, my tea set, my mcdonalds

restaurant, my hearts game, everything.

[Guest guest]

On the same thought line, I have been a saver for most of my life and

was very good at giving inanimate objects human emotions. For example,

if I had a pair of old tennis shoes, I couldn't throw them away because

I felt bad that the tennis shoes were going to feel unwanted. This

literally happened on a daily basis!

I love Walsh on the show Clean Sweep - he's changed my life in

how he teaches people to let go of things. I think my problem now in

keeping things is that I have blocked a lot of memories. Sometimes the

objects are the only things that help me remember!

Anyone have the same issues?

Have a great day!

Sherri

[Guest guest]

>

> On the same thought line, I have been a saver for most of my life

and

> was very good at giving inanimate objects human emotions. For

example,

> if I had a pair of old tennis shoes, I couldn't throw them away

because

> I felt bad that the tennis shoes were going to feel unwanted. This

> literally happened on a daily basis!

>

> I love Walsh on the show Clean Sweep - he's changed my life

in

> how he teaches people to let go of things. I think my problem now

in

> keeping things is that I have blocked a lot of memories. Sometimes

the

> objects are the only things that help me remember!

>

> Anyone have the same issues?

> Have a great day!

> Sherri

>

[Guest guest]

Sherri: Walsh!! THAT'S the guy! I love him!

In fact, wish me luck: today I have to Clean Sweep my kids' game

room. I've put it off for 4 months. Dreading it.

I'll just channel today! Maybe the show will come on while

I'm working!

-Kyla

>

> On the same thought line, I have been a saver for most of my life

and

> was very good at giving inanimate objects human emotions. For

example,

> if I had a pair of old tennis shoes, I couldn't throw them away

because

> I felt bad that the tennis shoes were going to feel unwanted. This

> literally happened on a daily basis!

>

> I love Walsh on the show Clean Sweep - he's changed my life

in

> how he teaches people to let go of things. I think my problem now

in

> keeping things is that I have blocked a lot of memories. Sometimes

the

> objects are the only things that help me remember!

>

> Anyone have the same issues?

> Have a great day!

> Sherri

>

[Guest guest]

Sherri: Walsh! THAT'S the guy!

I have to " clean sweep " my kids' den today -- hopefully that show

will come on while I'm working!

-Kyla

>

> On the same thought line, I have been a saver for most of my life

and

> was very good at giving inanimate objects human emotions. For

example,

> if I had a pair of old tennis shoes, I couldn't throw them away

because

> I felt bad that the tennis shoes were going to feel unwanted. This

> literally happened on a daily basis!

>

> I love Walsh on the show Clean Sweep - he's changed my life

in

> how he teaches people to let go of things. I think my problem now

in

> keeping things is that I have blocked a lot of memories. Sometimes

the

> objects are the only things that help me remember!

>

> Anyone have the same issues?

> Have a great day!

> Sherri

>

[Guest guest]

This is not the first time nada has played this, either. She really

seems to think I put tremendous stock in material items, which is

hysterical because she should know that most of my old possessions

were lost due to her actions - multiple moves, etc. We threw most of

my childhood relics away after they were destroyed in the Bad Place

(age 12-13ish), and I can't even begin to count how many of my

things she pawned. Between all that and Flylady, I don't have a

whole lotta clutter -- in fact, clutter makes me feel anxious and

out-of-sorts. But she still pulls it out like a trump card. When we

were NC for several months a few years ago, she pulled me back in

with " We're cleaning out grandma's house - what do you want? " I

asked her for exactly ONE thing, which she swore up and down she

retrieved for me, but she still to this day has yet to produce it.

First it was broken, then the guy who was gonna fix it was backed

up, then she was gonna find someone else, then . . . " You get the

idea. Whether she pawned it or broke it, I'll never know, but it was

the one damn thing I asked for and she couldn't do it.

Borderline AND a con artist. Whatta gal.

>

> From : " Nada has pulled this before

> on " stuff " -- she has no understanding that stuff means NOTHING to

> me, except for the occassional sentimental item, which is exactly

> what theses things are.

> How do I handle that piece of it? "

>

> really struck a chord with me on this question. My nada

has

> used this card often, along with the " Moving " card when she

decides

> she " no longer has a source of support " , etc. (she's " moved " three

> times since I've been NC). Part of me feels like I should just

let the

> things go, but there are a few things that are sentimental to me,

> although not important enough for me to break the NC. How have

you all

> handled it when this issue comes up?

> Sherri

>

[Guest guest]

Same here! I would always choose the " underdog " - the toy no one else

chose, whatever had the defect that would make it unwanted. I remember

seeing Christmas trees in the tents that had not been purchased by

christmas eve and wanted to cry. I feel like i still fight that

sometimes. It seems silly but is/was very real.

[Guest guest]

Hi Sherri,

You are so sweet. I am with you. I am a saver. I definitely have

thing and money issues. I am trying to connect those issues more

concretely to my past so maybe you all can help me out. My nada

wasn't necessarily a saver but despite that they were fairly well

off, we never received a lot of things growing up. Socks and undies

for Christmas. I fell triggers coming on...

My brother and I both remember only 1 or 2 times that we received

a " special " gift for birthdays or Christmas. He wanted a racing bike

and I wanted a really good pair of skates. My brother was allowed to

buy parts to put a bike together himself. He was expected to be

grateful and found he would " pay " dearly as nada's indentured servant

for the rest of his life. I think it became crystal clear that my

nada was messed up when, in college, his bike that he put together

was stolen. He took the insurance money and bought his now wife her

engagement ring. You would have thought he stuck a knife in nadas

heart. She spewed about that for years.

I got a clearance pair of skates that were too big when all the

skaters at my level were getting custom fit skates. It was not

received well when I said they didn't fit quit right so I shut up and

wore them. My nada still got mad after about 10 years because I was

getting a new pair for myself. Funny thing is, I still didn't allow

myself to get the custom skates! Is it any wonder I don't feel like

I deserve nice things?

Our version of school shopping was garage sales. In high school it

is hard to find anything remotely cool at garage sales. I took up

sewing to make things for myself at about 8 or 9 yrs old.

My mom bitched about how much our college cost her (we all worked

every spare moment so we didn't have to crawl to nada for more money

any more than necessary)but in the middle of it all they bought

themselves a double lot cottage on the lake! I always thought they

were broke!! WTF! I just ran up a credit card debt at the end of

college and payed if off when I started working. It was easier than

dealing with her.

Sorry for the rambling and whining but I am just trying to make the

final link here for myself and maybe be able to let go of my things

more easily. Maybe I will check out this Walsh guy. I too feel

I have blocked memories. I need to get in touch with those in order

to figure this all out. When I am working on a project, I have to

have everything out or I forget what i am doing!

patinage

> >

> > On the same thought line, I have been a saver for most of my life

> and

> > was very good at giving inanimate objects human emotions. For

> example,

> > if I had a pair of old tennis shoes, I couldn't throw them away

> because

> > I felt bad that the tennis shoes were going to feel unwanted. This

> > literally happened on a daily basis!

> >

> > I love Walsh on the show Clean Sweep - he's changed my life

> in

> > how he teaches people to let go of things. I think my problem now

> in

> > keeping things is that I have blocked a lot of memories.

Sometimes

> the

> > objects are the only things that help me remember!

> >

> > Anyone have the same issues?

> > Have a great day!

> > Sherri

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Sage said,

" In general, I love getting rid of stuff. Seriously, I get a buzz

out of just taking out the recycling every day, just because it

is " stuff " going out of the house. I think this is a reaction to my

nada's inclination to hoard. Her house is absolutely

indescribable. Once she even bought a shed in order to store more

things so that she wouldn't have to throw them out! "

It's really strange- and cool at the same time that you would mention this-

as I too, LOVE to clear out anything I don't use- it makes me feel so

independent; as my mother's place needed a bulldozer to get through her dump

since about two years after I had moved out at the age of 16.

I hope I'm not being a pain by sharing this with you and the group- if so;

please won't someone let me know??

But, keeping a clean home didn't cost much; was something I could control;

and the outcome was something that I looked foreword to, and used to

identify myself with.

After I finally started talking and visiting my mother again; around age 21;

it never dawned on me back then of how she didn't improve (her home keeping)

but actually got worse by the year after I left- (although it was Always my

fault her place was a pig sty) My mother always had cats- not as pets, but

as an extra income source. She treated her animals as bad as my father and

I. I've got a pretty gross story about that one too! (worse than the one

I'm telling now)

Even at the age of 31 I wouldn't let my second husband ever go to my

mother's house. He thought I was being overly paranoid or controlling or

something; but I told him that after he were to walk through her dump there

would be no way he would not try to either hold it against me later on; or

think deep inside that her habits would one day become mine. I was just not

going to let it happen this time around. My mother's living quarters

wrecked me in the past.

When I lived with her as a kid I only felt disgusted and threatened whenever

she, or any of my boyfriends wanted to go and " meet my mother " .that was the

biggest nightmare; which actually did happen to me just before Christmas

when I was 15. Not only the boyfriend, but the boyfriend's parents invited

themselves over to my mothers' and the place was a total dump.

In addition to this, my mother decided to wear this top with huge pink and

orange flowers on it during Christmas time; I became so humiliated for

months after this; especially after my boyfriend dumped me with no

explanation why; I actually cut myself up several times before I moved out

at 16. I went from being on the honor roll to hanging with potheads; and

completely rebelled.

I quit going to school; hung out at the park in below zero weather getting

drunk; you name it. I never got a sorry; and eventually the first one I

hooked up with after all this took me in @ 16.

But as far as my standards go, I love having a kitty in the house; just so

you cannot tell by the smell that one resides in my home! I've given back

three cats in my daughter's lifetime because they wanted to poop in my

plants. 1st strike & they're out. Could be bc my mother sent me to school

wearing cat piss clothes and my social studies gave a long speech to my

class about " personal hygiene " in place of that day's assignment.

If only I could have told him (Mr. Blair of 8th grade middle school) why it

was that way; and to this day, I'm overly worried about my appearance,

cleanliness, everything. I'll never get over that. But- my oldest bro. said

I was heartless for getting rid of one cat after another; until I reminded

him of " mother's house " . He said he understood. I said, I've got a clean

litter box for the cats and if they refuse to use it; out they go. We

currently have had a little Siamese for about 2 years now; precious, clean,

fun little cat! & Beautiful!

And 20 years later, working full time; two little boys; teen daughter (at

the time) and an a**hole husband my house is torn up from room to room. I

felt like I completely lost my independence. To this day, my pack rat

husband has a problem with me cleaning out a closet- or throwing anything

away. One day I got my revenge and cleaned his garage (2 day project).He

bitched every 5 minutes! I threw away stuff he didn't even know he had! I

separated his nails from his screws! Anyway, there's no keeping up with

this place with this lifestyle; we all take turns cleaning; seldom are all

rooms nice at one time. But, I've noticed, whenever he (husband) starts up

with his BPD manic depressive moments- in the back of my mind, I've got all

my dishes put away; and my toilet is spotless before I walk out my single

apartment door.

Has anyone else in the group ever experienced anything like this?

Vicki

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of sage153

Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:41 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Sidebar on " stuff "

Wow- this brought back a memory for me of one Christmas, when I

wanted a felt-covered toy reindeer. He was the last one in the

shop, and so all of his felt was peeling off. I insisted on getting

it for exactly the same reason you didn't want to give away your

tennis shoes - I couldn't bear to let him feel unwanted! I kept him

for years.

In general, I love getting rid of stuff. Seriously, I get a buzz

out of just taking out the recycling every day, just because it

is " stuff " going out of the house. I think this is a reaction to my

nada's inclination to hoard. Her house is absolutely

indescribable. Once she even bought a shed in order to store more

things so that she wouldn't have to throw them out!

Sara

>

> On the same thought line, I have been a saver for most of my life

and

> was very good at giving inanimate objects human emotions. For

example,

> if I had a pair of old tennis shoes, I couldn't throw them away

because

> I felt bad that the tennis shoes were going to feel unwanted. This

> literally happened on a daily basis!

>

> I love Walsh on the show Clean Sweep - he's changed my life

in

> how he teaches people to let go of things. I think my problem now

in

> keeping things is that I have blocked a lot of memories. Sometimes

the

> objects are the only things that help me remember!

>

> Anyone have the same issues?

> Have a great day!

> Sherri

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, I thought I was the only one who felt that way about Christmas trees .

.. .

Thanks for sharing.

I am dealing with " stuff " because I am packing to move. It is so much

easier than it was 2 years ago before I went NC - I didn't know about BPD

then. If felt like giving or throwing something away was the end of the

world. Growing up (and even now) Nada would go through of time of saving

everything then one day decide the house was full of crap and it had to go.

She would get everything pulled out and sorted then her progress would

stall. Eventually it got all put back and rarely did much leave. Things

that left got brought to my house and I was an unselfish person if I didn't

take them. She was so pleased to find a Goodwill store that sold cloths by

the pound. Those are the rejects that didn't make it into the real Goodwill

store. She would by bags of clothes for my kids. I felt obligated to stuff

them in their drawers. Since moving two years ago and going NC I have taken

over 50 bags of clothes back to Goodwill.

All this and she had the nerve to suggest that child protection services

should come take my kids away and that I was mentally unstable because my

house was messy. Hence, I am NC and now moving even farther away.

This time I understand the BPD part of why I have saved things and I am

packing only what I love. My " to go to charity " pile is bigger than my

" move " pile at the moment!

Blessed freedom! No nada coming over and looking at the charity pile,

grabbing something and saying, " Oh ,don't you remember wearing that to your

7th grade dance? " Obligation to keep it would overwhelm me and back into my

" keep " box it would go. Never mind I looked hideous in it and no one danced

with me and I was too afraid to ask anyone to dance. If it had a memory, I

couldn't get rid of it.

I had some old t-shirts that were from momentous occasions - I took digital

pictures of them for my scrap book instead of keeping the t-shirts.

_____

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of Sherri

Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:21 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Sidebar on " stuff "

Same here! I would always choose the " underdog " - the toy no one else

chose, whatever had the defect that would make it unwanted. I remember

seeing Christmas trees in the tents that had not been purchased by

christmas eve and wanted to cry. I feel like i still fight that

sometimes. It seems silly but is/was very real.

[Guest guest]

The thing about keeping t-shirts with memories...I've heard some

people will take a bunch of shirts they loved and make one big quilt

out of them, just using the middle parts of the t-shirts and basically

sewing square blocks together.

[Guest guest]

Speaking of Christmas.....

I get stressed out every Christmas season -- spending my days

stressing about what " Stuff " to buy, chasing down the " Stuff " ,

laying down money to buy the " Stuff " , so I can wrap the " Stuff " , so

I can give the " Stuff " , so I can receive some " Stuff " (most of which

I don't like), so I can spend the rest of the year paying for,

managing, and throwing out/giving away the " Stuff " .....

I'm thinking of asking the extended family if we could forego all of

this gift wrapping, giving, etc. and all kick in money to send an

underprivileged kid to a worthy camp. I'd feel so good about THAT

gift.....

I just may do that.....Because I'm sick of spending so much of my

life stressing about and managing " Stuff " . I've gotten to where I

hate it. There's got to be a way to simplify it without stripping

it of meaning.

Christmas gift giving has gotten out of hand -- It has come to

symbolize hyper-capitalism -- it's become the " Super Bowl of

Stuff " ....

-Kyla

>

> Wow, I thought I was the only one who felt that way about

Christmas trees .

> . .

>

>

>

> Thanks for sharing.

>

>

>

> I am dealing with " stuff " because I am packing to move. It is so

much

> easier than it was 2 years ago before I went NC - I didn't know

about BPD

> then. If felt like giving or throwing something away was the end

of the

> world. Growing up (and even now) Nada would go through of time of

saving

> everything then one day decide the house was full of crap and it

had to go.

> She would get everything pulled out and sorted then her progress

would

> stall. Eventually it got all put back and rarely did much leave.

Things

> that left got brought to my house and I was an unselfish person if

I didn't

> take them. She was so pleased to find a Goodwill store that sold

cloths by

> the pound. Those are the rejects that didn't make it into the

real Goodwill

> store. She would by bags of clothes for my kids. I felt

obligated to stuff

> them in their drawers. Since moving two years ago and going NC I

have taken

> over 50 bags of clothes back to Goodwill.

>

>

>

> All this and she had the nerve to suggest that child protection

services

> should come take my kids away and that I was mentally unstable

because my

> house was messy. Hence, I am NC and now moving even farther away.

>

>

>

> This time I understand the BPD part of why I have saved things and

I am

> packing only what I love. My " to go to charity " pile is bigger

than my

> " move " pile at the moment!

>

>

>

> Blessed freedom! No nada coming over and looking at the charity

pile,

> grabbing something and saying, " Oh ,don't you remember wearing

that to your

> 7th grade dance? " Obligation to keep it would overwhelm me and

back into my

> " keep " box it would go. Never mind I looked hideous in it and no

one danced

> with me and I was too afraid to ask anyone to dance. If it had a

memory, I

> couldn't get rid of it.

>

>

>

> I had some old t-shirts that were from momentous occasions - I

took digital

> pictures of them for my scrap book instead of keeping the t-shirts.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: WTOAdultChildren1

> [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of Sherri

> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:21 PM

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Subject: Re: Sidebar on " stuff "

>

>

>

> Same here! I would always choose the " underdog " - the toy no one

else

> chose, whatever had the defect that would make it unwanted. I

remember

> seeing Christmas trees in the tents that had not been purchased by

> christmas eve and wanted to cry. I feel like i still fight that

> sometimes. It seems silly but is/was very real.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oh, Good Lord, I thought I was the only one who did that with

unpurchased toys and Christmas trees! I'd see them and think, " They're

gonna spend Christmas ALONE " and want to bawl.

And I too chose the " underdog " toys. Problem is, you wind up with a

lot of crap that way, things that are inferior or that you didn't

really want--and it adds to the " I don't deserve better " mentality.

And if you think, " hey, if this is how I really feel about the

underdog toy, wonder how people really feel about ME? " And it would

add to my belief that the people who " chose " me only really did it out

of pity, and actually didn't like me very much.

What a mess to get out of!

Love,

Vi

> Same here! I would always choose the " underdog " - the toy no one else

> chose, whatever had the defect that would make it unwanted. I remember

> seeing Christmas trees in the tents that had not been purchased by

> christmas eve and wanted to cry. I feel like i still fight that

> sometimes. It seems silly but is/was very real.

>

[Guest guest]

You wrote:

> I got a clearance pair of skates that were too big when all the

> skaters at my level were getting custom fit skates. It was not

> received well when I said they didn't fit quit right so I shut up and

> wore them. My nada still got mad after about 10 years because I was

> getting a new pair for myself. Funny thing is, I still didn't allow

> myself to get the custom skates! Is it any wonder I don't feel like

I have to wonder--why do nada's do this?

Is it obliviousness--THEY wouldn't care about custom skates, so why

should you (since you ARE them)?

Is it resentment--THEY didn't get custom skates (or whatever it was

they wanted) growing up, so why should you now, even if there is $$

for it?

Or is it soul-crushing--you want the custom skates, so you very

specifically are given something else, forced to accept it, and shamed

for wanting different, all in an effort to crush out of you what makes

you an individual (to tereby better serve THEM)?

Or a bit of all three?

I remember little things like going shopping for school supplies in

middle school, and wanting the colorful rainbow Trapper

Keeper (dating self!) and pencils. Not only did I never, never get

one, but nada thought it was silly and amusing that I wanted one, as

she guided me towards the plainest, cheapest stuff. I assumed then

that it was a money thing; after all, the stuff *was* more

costly. But in retrospect, I see that it would have totaled 5, maybe 6

more dollars PER YEAR than the plain stuff.

We lived in Palm Beach County. We had $5-6 more a year for the

colorful school stuff. :C

Love,

Vi

[Guest guest]

Ah Vi, this reminds me of a couple of things. Summers when I was

bored out of my skull and nada wouldn't drive me 2 miles to see a

friend, EVER. The only thing I could do was go to the library with

her and go grocery shopping (which she would *sigh* but then take me).

I was very good and quiet (as usual!), and after checkout I would

often ask " do you have a quarter? " for one of those gumball machines.

The answer was always no. Like it would have killed her to give me a

lousy quarter.

She grew up super poor though, and also the youngest, so she must have

never gotten anything good. She just didn't like me to be *too* happy.

Also, I used to work with this evil woman. She was one of those

overly friendly women who you think is real nice until you work with

her. She was not like my mother, but somehow she reminded me of her.

She would tell stories about her kids that made me see red.

She had her two girls in dance classes, and one told her that she had

outgrown her shoes. So this woman told her to keep wearing them for a

while. She was so tight! She made $80k a year, and her husband

probably made the same, so they could afford it.

Also, she got this Toys R Us Visa card, and with so many purchases,

would get some free toys. She would save these up and use them for

Christmas. Her kids would give her these very exact lists, and she

would ignore them and get whatever free toys were offered by her card.

They would get mad every Christmas and she would laugh.

See, a NICE person would get those free toys and if her kids didn't

want them, give them to Toys For Tots and still feel good about it.

How I hated her!

-Deanna

>

> > I got a clearance pair of skates that were too big when all the

> > skaters at my level were getting custom fit skates. It was not

> > received well when I said they didn't fit quit right so I shut up and

> > wore them. My nada still got mad after about 10 years because I was

> > getting a new pair for myself. Funny thing is, I still didn't allow

> > myself to get the custom skates! Is it any wonder I don't feel like

>

>

> I have to wonder--why do nada's do this?

>

> Is it obliviousness--THEY wouldn't care about custom skates, so why

> should you (since you ARE them)?

>

> Is it resentment--THEY didn't get custom skates (or whatever it was

> they wanted) growing up, so why should you now, even if there is $$

> for it?

>

> Or is it soul-crushing--you want the custom skates, so you very

> specifically are given something else, forced to accept it, and shamed

> for wanting different, all in an effort to crush out of you what makes

> you an individual (to tereby better serve THEM)?

>

> Or a bit of all three?

>

> I remember little things like going shopping for school supplies in

> middle school, and wanting the colorful rainbow Trapper

> Keeper (dating self!) and pencils. Not only did I never, never get

> one, but nada thought it was silly and amusing that I wanted one, as

> she guided me towards the plainest, cheapest stuff. I assumed then

> that it was a money thing; after all, the stuff *was* more

> costly. But in retrospect, I see that it would have totaled 5, maybe 6

> more dollars PER YEAR than the plain stuff.

>

> We lived in Palm Beach County. We had $5-6 more a year for the

> colorful school stuff. :C

>

>

> Love,

> Vi

>

[Guest guest]

Kyla, you said:

I'm thinking of asking the extended family if we could forego all of

> this gift wrapping, giving, etc. and all kick in money to send an

> underprivileged kid to a worthy camp. I'd feel so good about THAT

> gift.....

I LOVE the camp idea! Can't wait to get a group together to do that.

If you have trouble asking for the money yourself for any reason (I

sure do), this worked to get my family on board: For the last few

years, I've " adopted " a child to sponsor for Christmas through the

Salvation Army; now my husband and I do it for 2. They can only ask

for one or two small toys and some clothes, but we use that

information to give them a Christmas we'd be proud to give our own -

toys, books, clothes, shoes, PJs, and a stuffed stocking apiece. Our

sheer enthusiasm in telling our family about how happy it made us

led almost all of them to spontaneously say, " You know, next year

I'd rather you just get more for them -- I don't need more stuff. "

So, we took them at their word and last year was a meager one under

the tree. Nobody seemed to mind, especially when I showed them the

pictures we'd taken of the haul " our kids " were getting.

Like I mentioned earlier, I'm not big on possessions . . . but kids

can be, and we all know from experience how feeling deprived

(especially when others are getting) can leave a stain on your soul

that screams " I'm not worthy! " So we do everything we can to make it

a growth experience for them - to demonstrate that we heard what

they asked for and got these things especially for them, and we

always add extra skill/character building stuff like art supplies

and learning-by-playing toys. You never know what kind of

circumstances these kids are in; they might just be poor, but they

might be abused, or foster kids, or God knows what. Heck, I'd be

willing to bet a lot of them are casualties of a BP parent.

Oh yeah -- and the abandoned Christmas trees that are in the lot on

Dec. 26 make me want to cry.

*hugs*

> >

> > Wow, I thought I was the only one who felt that way about

> Christmas trees .

> > . .

> >

> >

> >

> > Thanks for sharing.

> >

> >

> >

> > I am dealing with " stuff " because I am packing to move. It is

so

> much

> > easier than it was 2 years ago before I went NC - I didn't know

> about BPD

> > then. If felt like giving or throwing something away was the

end

> of the

> > world. Growing up (and even now) Nada would go through of time

of

> saving

> > everything then one day decide the house was full of crap and it

> had to go.

> > She would get everything pulled out and sorted then her progress

> would

> > stall. Eventually it got all put back and rarely did much

leave.

> Things

> > that left got brought to my house and I was an unselfish person

if

> I didn't

> > take them. She was so pleased to find a Goodwill store that

sold

> cloths by

> > the pound. Those are the rejects that didn't make it into the

> real Goodwill

> > store. She would by bags of clothes for my kids. I felt

> obligated to stuff

> > them in their drawers. Since moving two years ago and going NC

I

> have taken

> > over 50 bags of clothes back to Goodwill.

> >

> >

> >

> > All this and she had the nerve to suggest that child protection

> services

> > should come take my kids away and that I was mentally unstable

> because my

> > house was messy. Hence, I am NC and now moving even farther

away.

> >

> >

> >

> > This time I understand the BPD part of why I have saved things

and

> I am

> > packing only what I love. My " to go to charity " pile is bigger

> than my

> > " move " pile at the moment!

> >

> >

> >

> > Blessed freedom! No nada coming over and looking at the charity

> pile,

> > grabbing something and saying, " Oh ,don't you remember wearing

> that to your

> > 7th grade dance? " Obligation to keep it would overwhelm me and

> back into my

> > " keep " box it would go. Never mind I looked hideous in it and

no

> one danced

> > with me and I was too afraid to ask anyone to dance. If it had

a

> memory, I

> > couldn't get rid of it.

> >

> >

> >

> > I had some old t-shirts that were from momentous occasions - I

> took digital

> > pictures of them for my scrap book instead of keeping the t-

shirts.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of Sherri

> > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:21 PM

> > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > Subject: Re: Sidebar on " stuff "

> >

> >

> >

> > Same here! I would always choose the " underdog " - the toy no one

> else

> > chose, whatever had the defect that would make it unwanted. I

> remember

> > seeing Christmas trees in the tents that had not been purchased

by

> > christmas eve and wanted to cry. I feel like i still fight that

> > sometimes. It seems silly but is/was very real.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Some families draw names at Thanksgiving. You write your name on a

piece of paper along with 2 items you'd like to get for Xmas that are

under $20 (like CDs) and whoever you get, you buy them one of those

items. That way everyone still gets something but you buy for one

instead of 20.

[Guest guest]

I'm considering starting a new Yahoo support group called " Friends of

Abandoned Christmas Trees " . Who's with me?

[Guest guest]

For extended family (not my husband or my kids) I go to Samaritan's Purse or

World Vision or another website like that. They usually have " gifts " that

you can buy that will go to a need -say a batch of chicks for a poor family

to start raising chickens and have eggs and meat to eat or sell or a blanket

for a child in a disaster stricken area or money to help a woman escape

prostitution, etc. I select a gift for each person trying to think what

might interest them (books for students for my brother who is a teacher for

example). They send a card in your name telling the recipient of your

donation in their name. No stuff to deal with (wrap, mail) and someone in

the world is blessed.

But since I have started doing this for Nada and dishrag, they don't send me

anything for Christmas - not a card, nothing. But then again these are the

same people that so sacrificially came to visit me in the hospital on

Christmas day - I was 3 days out of major surgery- and brought nothing, not

even a card. I didn't open a present that Christmas and I ate cream of

celery soup for Christmas dinner. I asked my husband to stay home with my

kids (the hospital was 1.5 hours away) because I didn't want Christmas Day

(also my son's birthday) to be a big drive for my small children. But you'd

think that my parents who so heroically drove all that way to see me could

write a card, bring a magazine, something. They stood there making small

talk. I was tired and just wanted them to go so I could rest. As they

walked out my brother turned one of the cards on my bulletin board crooked.

I asked him to please put it back so my SIL did. He turned it crooked

again. I about snapped. To get up and get across the room while attached

to all my tubes would have been impossible. He thought it was so funny I

was so upset about the crooked card, but when the hospital room is your

world, that could drive you batty.

Wow, that brought out an emotional spew. Sorry.

_____

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of vegdeanna

Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 12:14 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Sidebar on " stuff "

Some families draw names at Thanksgiving. You write your name on a

piece of paper along with 2 items you'd like to get for Xmas that are

under $20 (like CDs) and whoever you get, you buy them one of those

items. That way everyone still gets something but you buy for one

instead of 20.

[Guest guest]

,

What a great idea -- I hadn't heard of those websites before, but

that tops my list now! Love it! I received a piece of beaded jewelry

from my aunt a year or two ago from something called (I think) " one

pearl " or something like that . . . anyway, what they do is neat:

It's handcrafted beaded jewelry that's quite nice by itself, but

then the profits go to charities for underprivileged kids. The stuff

is primarily one color (which varies), so that one bead/ " pearl " can

stand out; it represents the child that you've helped by purchasing

the item.

I'm so glad the consumerism pendulum is starting to swing the other

way. I couldn't take any more years of parents killing each other in

the aisles of Toys-R-Us!

>

> For extended family (not my husband or my kids) I go to

Samaritan's Purse or

> World Vision or another website like that. They usually

have " gifts " that

> you can buy that will go to a need -say a batch of chicks for a

poor family

> to start raising chickens and have eggs and meat to eat or sell or

a blanket

> for a child in a disaster stricken area or money to help a woman

escape

> prostitution, etc. I select a gift for each person trying to

think what

> might interest them (books for students for my brother who is a

teacher for

> example). They send a card in your name telling the recipient of

your

> donation in their name. No stuff to deal with (wrap, mail) and

someone in

> the world is blessed.

>

>

>

> But since I have started doing this for Nada and dishrag, they

don't send me

> anything for Christmas - not a card, nothing. But then again

these are the

> same people that so sacrificially came to visit me in the hospital

on

> Christmas day - I was 3 days out of major surgery- and brought

nothing, not

> even a card. I didn't open a present that Christmas and I ate

cream of

> celery soup for Christmas dinner. I asked my husband to stay home

with my

> kids (the hospital was 1.5 hours away) because I didn't want

Christmas Day

> (also my son's birthday) to be a big drive for my small children.

But you'd

> think that my parents who so heroically drove all that way to see

me could

> write a card, bring a magazine, something. They stood there

making small

> talk. I was tired and just wanted them to go so I could rest. As

they

> walked out my brother turned one of the cards on my bulletin board

crooked.

> I asked him to please put it back so my SIL did. He turned it

crooked

> again. I about snapped. To get up and get across the room while

attached

> to all my tubes would have been impossible. He thought it was so

funny I

> was so upset about the crooked card, but when the hospital room is

your

> world, that could drive you batty.

>

>

>

> Wow, that brought out an emotional spew. Sorry.

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: WTOAdultChildren1

> [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of vegdeanna

> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 12:14 PM

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Subject: Re: Sidebar on " stuff "

>

>

>

> Some families draw names at Thanksgiving. You write your name on a

> piece of paper along with 2 items you'd like to get for Xmas that

are

> under $20 (like CDs) and whoever you get, you buy them one of those

> items. That way everyone still gets something but you buy for one

> instead of 20.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

ACK! Vi, you are too much.

It's too much coincidence that we all have these feelings -- gotta

be the BPD brainwashing. You are dead-on: it all does fall right

into the " I don't deserve better " canon we were all forced to

memorize. It's like instead of summer camp (oh, I begged to go to

overnight camp!!!!), we went to year-round Hate Yourself Camp.

I also have a biiiiig bleeding heart for abandoned and injured

animals. I am completely in love with my dogs and kitten, all of

whom were shelter rescues and have a heartbreaking story (and all of

whom are also the greatest pets anyone could ever want!).

*hugs*

>

> Oh, Good Lord, I thought I was the only one who did that with

> unpurchased toys and Christmas trees! I'd see them and

think, " They're

> gonna spend Christmas ALONE " and want to bawl.

>

> And I too chose the " underdog " toys. Problem is, you wind up with a

> lot of crap that way, things that are inferior or that you didn't

> really want--and it adds to the " I don't deserve better " mentality.

> And if you think, " hey, if this is how I really feel about the

> underdog toy, wonder how people really feel about ME? " And it would

> add to my belief that the people who " chose " me only really did it

out

> of pity, and actually didn't like me very much.

>

> What a mess to get out of!

>

>

> Love,

> Vi

>

>

> > Same here! I would always choose the " underdog " - the toy no

one else

> > chose, whatever had the defect that would make it unwanted. I

remember

> > seeing Christmas trees in the tents that had not been purchased

by

> > christmas eve and wanted to cry. I feel like i still fight that

> > sometimes. It seems silly but is/was very real.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My new favorite shows are Clean House-- I love that show! and Neat.

I wish I lived in LA so the Clean House people could come and do my

house. It needs it!

As a kid I think had anxiety issues sometimes about stuff due to

Nada. Then when I got older I realised it was just stuff. She would

always get so irate whenever I did stuff to anything or if stuff

broke if there was an accident, you know if I lived in my room,

basically. She said that if I really cared about my things I would

treat them well. Yeah right. Kids are going to be kids. Kids are

thoughtless. Adults can be thoughtless too. We learn by trial and

error and observing that hey, if I try to swing from the curtain rod,

it breaks, and the fabric on the chair gets ripped when I fall on

it. And when we get older we find out more interesting thigns by

living through them. She still talks about how I ruined the walls by

taping pictures up. Get over it! All it takes is some spackle and

paint. They were just plain old white walls- nothing fancy. For a

long time now Nada has been getting more and more hermit like so the

means getting rid of some of her old stuff, her old sewing machine,

other junk, etc. Why not? And of course not having stuff allows her

to be a mayrtr. You know she loves that. And she fusses over

quality too. Like when i was in college and got cheap furniture that

was falling apart or things like that she didn't like idea. I

pointed out it was that sort of furniture or no furniture for me and

it wasn't meant to last forever! This stuff was meant to last just a

few years. She can be proud. I'm not. These days I have stuff I

need to sort through and organize, but I think my burden is more

physical and time and husband being a slob too than anything left

over.

> >

> > On the same thought line, I have been a saver for most of my life

> and

> > was very good at giving inanimate objects human emotions. For

> example,

> > if I had a pair of old tennis shoes, I couldn't throw them away

> because

> > I felt bad that the tennis shoes were going to feel unwanted. This

> > literally happened on a daily basis!

> >

> > I love Walsh on the show Clean Sweep - he's changed my life

> in

> > how he teaches people to let go of things. I think my problem now

> in

> > keeping things is that I have blocked a lot of memories.

Sometimes

> the

> > objects are the only things that help me remember!

> >

> > Anyone have the same issues?

> > Have a great day!

> > Sherri

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I gave up telling my parents what I wanted for Christmas at about 15.

You see, it was the best way to ensure that I WOULDN'T get what I

asked for. Buying things for me that I'd let her know that I wanted

would make my nada " feel used " , apparently. For her, shopping for

presents was about having a fun experience for *herself*, not winding

up with something I would care about.

Funny, my dad mentioned he wanted something, she'd be excited to get

it for him. Me? It would be ignored, and if I metioned it more than

once (or tried to hint), she'd let me know how much she resented being

" manipulated " , because it made it not fun for her. Left to her own

devices, she'd get me something I cared for about once every 5

occasions. The rest was stuff SHE'D have liked to have.

Also, if what she knew I wanted was a certain kind of thing, she'd

make sure to always get one of slightly lesser quality, even if, in

retrospect, I know the price couldn't have been more than $20 more. We

had that $20! It was like subtly reminding me, all the time, that I

didn't ever quite deserve anything I aimed for.

I love buying gifts, for everyone except her. Why not just buy her

something I'd want, and then repossess it later?

This year, she's getting a donation made in her name.

Sigh,

Vi

> >

> > > I got a clearance pair of skates that were too big when all the

> > > skaters at my level were getting custom fit skates. It was not

> > > received well when I said they didn't fit quit right so I shut

up and

> > > wore them. My nada still got mad after about 10 years because I

was

> > > getting a new pair for myself. Funny thing is, I still didn't

allow

> > > myself to get the custom skates! Is it any wonder I don't feel

like

> >

> >

> > I have to wonder--why do nada's do this?

> >

> > Is it obliviousness--THEY wouldn't care about custom skates, so why

> > should you (since you ARE them)?

> >

> > Is it resentment--THEY didn't get custom skates (or whatever it was

> > they wanted) growing up, so why should you now, even if there is $$

> > for it?

> >

> > Or is it soul-crushing--you want the custom skates, so you very

> > specifically are given something else, forced to accept it, and shamed

> > for wanting different, all in an effort to crush out of you what makes

> > you an individual (to tereby better serve THEM)?

> >

> > Or a bit of all three?

> >

> > I remember little things like going shopping for school supplies in

> > middle school, and wanting the colorful rainbow Trapper

> > Keeper (dating self!) and pencils. Not only did I never, never get

> > one, but nada thought it was silly and amusing that I wanted one, as

> > she guided me towards the plainest, cheapest stuff. I assumed then

> > that it was a money thing; after all, the stuff *was* more

> > costly. But in retrospect, I see that it would have totaled 5, maybe 6

> > more dollars PER YEAR than the plain stuff.

> >

> > We lived in Palm Beach County. We had $5-6 more a year for the

> > colorful school stuff. :C

> >

> >

> > Love,

> > Vi

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Oh yeah Vicki - you nailed it. I would vote a mix of all three to a

small degree or thrown in for extra FOG with the third being the end

goal. Kind of like the proverbial carrot being placed out there for

you but always being moved a little farther away if you get too

close. I love how eloquent you and many others here are at putting

all this stuff into words.

Thanks Vicki!

patinage

>

> > I got a clearance pair of skates that were too big when all the

> > skaters at my level were getting custom fit skates. It was not

> > received well when I said they didn't fit quit right so I shut up

and

> > wore them. My nada still got mad after about 10 years because I

was

> > getting a new pair for myself. Funny thing is, I still didn't

allow

> > myself to get the custom skates! Is it any wonder I don't feel

like

>

>

> I have to wonder--why do nada's do this?

>

> Is it obliviousness--THEY wouldn't care about custom skates, so why

> should you (since you ARE them)?

>

> Is it resentment--THEY didn't get custom skates (or whatever it was

> they wanted) growing up, so why should you now, even if there is $$

> for it?

>

> Or is it soul-crushing--you want the custom skates, so you very

> specifically are given something else, forced to accept it, and

shamed

> for wanting different, all in an effort to crush out of you what

makes

> you an individual (to tereby better serve THEM)?

>

> Or a bit of all three?

>

> I remember little things like going shopping for school supplies in

> middle school, and wanting the colorful rainbow Trapper

> Keeper (dating self!) and pencils. Not only did I never, never get

> one, but nada thought it was silly and amusing that I wanted one, as

> she guided me towards the plainest, cheapest stuff. I assumed then

> that it was a money thing; after all, the stuff *was*

more

> costly. But in retrospect, I see that it would have totaled 5,

maybe 6

> more dollars PER YEAR than the plain stuff.

>

> We lived in Palm Beach County. We had $5-6 more a year for the

> colorful school stuff. :C

>

>

> Love,

> Vi

>