RE: Re: Forms of Estradiol: all mgs aren't the same?

[Guest guest]

Leah told me that early in her experience of the Wiley program, she started getting calls from lots of patients all of the sudden, who were having negative symptoms, and then others were demanding 'emergency' appointments (since normally it takes a month or more to get in to see her), and one came in suicidal!!! Leah realized with that many women, it was the program, the creams. She called the pharmacy and one of the 'Santa Barbara MDs' who helped train Leah was THERE at the pharmacy, and got on the phone and said, 'it isn't you, there IS a problem, and I am here at the pharmacy now with the pharmacist, trying to figure out what is wrong.' That isn't actually a direct quote, but close enough to write it as such in this informal list post.

Leah said it turned out the creams the pharmacist was using for the delivery system changed, his sources changed or something, forget the exact details, for she told me this in November 2005, and he had to find another source, another delivery system.

Now that she has changed pharmacies, about the time I started the program, and thanks to the information hubbie Neal gave me, I know now the 'new pharmacy' is on his enemy list, Leah and staff are telling me they are learning we need about 50% less P than everyone needed with the previous pharmacy.

That is all I know on this subject, but hope it is helpful. Every piece of info about these things helps us piece this puzzle together.

Re: Forms of Estradiol: all mgs aren't the same?

Oh ABSOLUTELY. This is what I've been screaming for months now. I can't get balanced because of this problem. It's why our doctors when they hear "8 mgs a day" they go bonkers. Some "8 mgs" are only equal to 2 mg! But I can't "prove" this with a damned study! >> I've noticed that it's very hard for us to compare dosing regimens because a > 1 mg patch differs from 1 mg estradiol cream or gel which differs in its > potency from 1 mg estradiol in Olive Oil.> > By potency, I mean what we absorb and can feel working.> > Olive Oil E, which I prefer for convenience, cost and product purity, seems > to be about half the strength of Oestrogel or the creams. > > Anybody else noticed this?> > Lynne>

[Guest guest]

As far as I know, there are no double-blind studies on compounded hormones, like OOE. From the studies, we can figure out what to expect from hormones like Estrace or Oestrogel, but there is nothing similar with the compounded hormones.

Val

-----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of You think someone would tell us about this? In all of those books, I don't think this topic has ever been mentioned. > Olive Oil E, which I prefer for convenience, cost and product purity, seems> to be about half the strength of Oestrogel or the creams. > > Anybody else noticed this? Lynne

[Guest guest]

But I have often said that the cream strengths vary from place to place because I would get zero E readings using them.

on transdermal P cream even on double P during WP,

my P reading only got up to 7.7.

BUT on 100mgs. Prometrium, I got 45 !!!!!!! The P cream is stuck in my body,

God only knows where, I know I cannot tolerate ANY P now though.

My body knows to avoid the transdermal P for now, maybe for ever. The oral P made me

dizzy, and comalike, depressed and heavylegged.

OH and really cold....was told I have all the P overdose symptoms, and since I have no

uterus to avoid it ))) So that P cream is in us, just NOT seen in our BLOOD

(((

[Guest guest]

But I have often said that the cream strengths vary from place to place because I would get zero E readings using them.

OOOPPPPSSSS thought you were on the P thing. I don't have that problem with OOE, I get higher reading on OOE than I did with the creams though. But when I was using the creams I was on double WP, and at the lowest point on WP +2. My day 12 was usually 489 or so, day 21 would be about 285. I seem to be stuck in the 700's with the OOE. I am not sure if it is the OOT that is doing it to me,

[Guest guest]

Arch Gynecol Obstet. 1993;253(2):71-4.

When applied to facial skin, does estrogen ointment have systemic effects?Kainz C, Gitsch G, Stani J, Breitenecker G, Binder M, Schmidt JB.2nd Department of Gynecology and Obstetrics, University of Vienna, School of Medicine, Austria.We examined cytological vaginal smears of 17 women before and after three months of dermal estrogen (1 g of 0.01% estradiol ointment or 0.3% estriol ointment once daily), applied to the face for dermatological indications. The mean age was 57.1 +/- 7.6 years (range from 46 to 66). Seven women had estrogenic smears (more than 10% superficial cells) before therapy. Nine women were treated with 0.01% estradiol ointment and 8 were treated with 0.3% estriol ointment. Both groups had gynecological examinations including cervical and vaginal smears before and after treatment and also monthly measurements of serum follicle-stimulating hormone, prolactin and estradiol levels. Serum hormone levels and the appearance of vaginal smears showed no significant change during treatment.PMID: 8215610 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Val

-----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of

Yes the P cream is in us but doesn't show up I know that. It's how we FEEL that sucks! But it doesn't do its job either!! The P cream did NOTHING to help with my heavy bleeds (meaning it wasn't balancing properly). Only when I used the crinone did it do some good. But the E cream is the real problem. I apply and apply and it doesn't register in blood serum. I'm getting to be less and less a fan of cream. OO was the same for me. Didn't help with my flashes. And you got a 45 using prometrium?? That is ridiculous!

[Guest guest]

thanks Val for posting this. Guess I will keep putting the OO/E residue on my hands (afte applying) on my face!!! Noticing more lines all of a sudden since my hyst! MadeleenValarie wrote: Arch Gynecol Obstet. 1993;253(2):71-4. When applied to facial skin, does estrogen ointment have systemic effects?Kainz C, Gitsch G, Stani J, Breitenecker G, Binder M, Schmidt JB.2nd Department of Gynecology and Obstetrics, University of Vienna, School of Medicine, Austria.We examined cytological vaginal smears of 17 women before and after three months of dermal estrogen (1 g of 0.01% estradiol ointment or 0.3% estriol ointment once daily), applied to the face for dermatological indications. The mean age was 57.1 +/- 7.6 years (range from 46 to 66). Seven women had estrogenic smears (more than 10% superficial cells) before therapy. Nine women were treated with 0.01% estradiol ointment and 8 were treated with 0.3% estriol ointment. Both groups had gynecological examinations including cervical and vaginal smears before and after treatment and also monthly measurements of serum follicle-stimulating hormone, prolactin and estradiol levels. Serum hormone levels and the

appearance of vaginal smears showed no significant change during treatment.PMID: 8215610 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Val -----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of Yes the P cream is in us but doesn't show up I know that. It's how we FEEL that sucks! But it doesn't do its job either!! The P cream did NOTHING to help with my heavy bleeds (meaning it wasn't balancing properly). Only when I used the crinone did it do some good. But the E cream is the

real problem. I apply and apply and it doesn't register in blood serum. I'm getting to be less and less a fan of cream. OO was the same for me. Didn't help with my flashes. And you got a 45 using prometrium?? That is ridiculous!

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

[Guest guest]

you got a 45 using prometrium?? That is ridiculous!

YES............you can imagine how BAD I felt, I only did that for a short time, was too dizzy, and depressed, as well as all my no E symptoms ((((

[Guest guest]

From:

To: rhythmicliving

Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 1:32 PM

Subject: Re: Forms of Estradiol: all mgs aren't the same?

Wowee, wow wow. You must have been a zombie in pain. Like I would be. The thing is, how did you get it to actually show up in blood serum? My P never showed up - even on Wiley!

, the point for me was that in my body all that HRT cream P stored in my fat and organs, so it was not free in my blood and didn't show up in labs. Transdermal P metabolizes funny. BUT when I took ORAL P is WAS in my blood, and did show up in my labs. I had done many day 21 labs with P creams and even on WP P + 4 lines ONLY got blood levels up to 7.7..........but we know that 900mgs. of P had to be in there somewhere.

[Guest guest]

So are you all saying that the blood test I am getting tomorrow for P may not mean anything?

Please let us know what your labs look like, are you on HRT cream with the P? What have you got on you're other day 21's???? OH are you putting it on your thin skin, like shins?? We were told to put it on our fat, ackkkkkkkkkk (((( Maybe you will see it if you put it where you can see veins, so it will be less able to grab on to and stick to your fat??? OH I like the larger pica ))))

[Guest guest]

So are you all saying that the blood test I am getting tomorrow for P may not mean anything?

---- Original Message -----

From:

To: rhythmicliving

Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 1:32 PM

Subject: Re: Forms of Estradiol: all mgs aren't the same?

Wowee, wow wow. You must have been a zombie in pain. Like I would be. The thing is, how did you get it to actually show up in blood serum? My P never showed up - even on Wiley! >> > > > you got a 45 using prometrium?? That is ridiculous! > > > > > > YES............you can imagine how BAD I felt, I only did that for a short > time, was too dizzy, and depressed, as well as all my no E symptoms (((( > >

[Guest guest]

Just to add to the P confusion..when i did 2 days of 200mg oral P, 4 days of 100-200mg of vaginal P and 100mg of oral P and 4 days of 150mg of oral P, my blood level showed just about 6, but i felt terrible...hairloss, skin breakouts, cold sore on my lip, feeling aggressive and angry...and my testosterone went from 39 to 66! so vaginal P doesn't show on a blood test as well... -Nuimom@... wrote: So are you all saying that the blood test I am getting tomorrow for P may not mean anything? Please let us know what your labs look like, are you on HRT cream with the P? What have you got on you're other day 21's???? OH are you putting it on your thin skin, like shins?? We were told to put it on our fat, ackkkkkkkkkk (((( Maybe you will see it if you put it where you can see veins, so it will be less able to grab on to and stick to your fat??? OH I like the larger pica ))))

#define QUESTION ((bb) || !(bb)) - Shakespeare

[Guest guest]

well, the problem is most docs think we're dillusional half the time, so they don't trust our symptoms...and of course that's why we don't trust docs...i've learned my lesson the hard way...i think it's important to find a place where one feels best with the help of symptoms...and then have a series of tests to see where you're number wise.. -J. wrote: And this is exactly what we mean when we say we need to TREAT BY SYMPTOMS. Who cares about blood tests anyway? It's all about how we FEEL. But doctors hang on to the tests like a dog with a bone! It does not show up in the blood! > > So are you all saying that the blood test I am getting tomorrow for P may not mean anything? > > > > > > Please let us know what your labs look like, are you on HRT cream with the P?

What have you got on you're other day 21's???? OH are you putting it on your thin skin, like shins?? We were told to put it on our fat, ackkkkkkkkkk (((( Maybe you will see it if you put it where you can see veins, so it will be less able to grab on to and stick to your fat??? OH I like the larger pica )))) > > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/> > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.** > > > >

[Guest guest]

That is exactly what I am trying to do, and I cannot imagine doing it any other way, but then I don't get along well with most doctors for the reasons you describe her. The nurse on my doctor's staff who facilitates the program emphasized to me to call her if I notice ANY LITTLE thing that didn't seem right or normal. Since I wasn't sure how the hormones were supposed to make me feel, never having done HRT before, I took her at her work did call starting the first few days into the first P cycle. I don't care what my blood tests say if I don't feel well!!! I am far more concerned about how I feel on this program than what my numbers are. I want to monitor how I feel, adjust the amounts accordingly, which the nurses help me do, and then get numbers to see how they fit into what is happening with me. Not the other way around. But I am not sure a lot of doctors would enable their staff to work with patients this way, or would themselves. I don't know since I have spent most of my adult life avoiding them! LOL But when you all talk about how you were 'forced' and 'ordered' to do the program according to the numbers and not to how you felt, that sounds like Nazi Germany! Horrors!!!! Well, too bad, the patient died but she sure had good numbers on that program, I can hear it now.....

Re: Re: Forms of Estradiol: all mgs aren't the same?

well, the problem is most docs think we're dillusional half the time, so they don't trust our symptoms...and of course that's why we don't trust docs...i've learned my lesson the hard way...i think it's important to find a place where one feels best with the help of symptoms...and then have a series of tests to see where you're number wise..

-J. wrote:

And this is exactly what we mean when we say we need to TREAT BY SYMPTOMS. Who cares about blood tests anyway? It's all about how we FEEL. But doctors hang on to the tests like a dog with a bone! It does not show up in the blood!

[Guest guest]

Yes, even with my great respect for my doctor, which by now probably is obvious to anyone who reads my posts, I frankly didn't totally believe the nurse when she said that. But once I started the P and that headache and then black depression started, and got worse over a weekend so that by Monday when I could call it was serious, something had to happen or I had to stop the program, that I knew without a doubt, I DID call, but was apologetic to bother her, blah, blah, blah and she was adamant that she was THERE for me and I SHOULD be calling with symptoms like that, blah, blah, blah. One of my calls those first few weeks, I recall, was about something she couldn't help me with without checking with Dr. Morton, who was out of town, she said, but she tracked her down and got back with me, as she told me she would. Even with that clinic and its holistic reputation, I too have been AMAZED at the 'care and service' I have gotten on this program. I just don't think I would have lasted this long without that, and I didn't have nearly the problems so of you all talk about, at least not yet. And I hope I don't, obviously.

Also, as I continued to have some problems those first two months, in addition to talking to me every week or so, sometimes more than once in a week, the nurse kept saying, now if you need to see Dr. Morton, we will fit you in, just let us know! Normally it takes a MONTH to get an appointment with her! I told the nurse that as long as the adjustments she was telling me to make, under Leah's supervision, made me feel better, I didn't feel I needed to see Leah, unless she, the nurse, insisted upon it. She said that was fine, just wanted me to know I had that option. It made me feel so SECURE in this whole thing, and money cannot buy that. There is no charge for all those phone calls with the nurse, either! Since I have to pay Leah out of pocket, she isn't on insurance systems anymore, I do try to see her only when I absolutely must. My tests go through her husband and the NP at that clinic, so insurance does cover everything else, just not my consultations with Leah. And free conversations with the nurses, there are two, but one is on the program and seems to know the most.

But I can't help but wonder, and frankly, to assume, that that clinic HAS seen a lot of problems that can arise on this program and since I came into their radar much later than most of the other women who are on the program out of that clinic, they had all of that experience to use with me. Like being the last child of a mother with a lot of kids, so you get all the previous child-raising knowledge, assuming she isn't too worn out.....LOL

But knowing what you all on this list have experienced, I still have my fingers crossed that I won't have problems erupt in the future. I still am VERY aware that I amd a guinea pig here for a new theory. I am willing to be and do that, but at times it is a bit unsettling. I am using my best instincts and knowledge to make my choices, only time will tell.

Leah Morton certainly has earned her reputation as a very caring attentive doctor, and you can see why! She is so rare! She is such a gentle soul, she is really special.

Re: Forms of Estradiol: all mgs aren't the same?

__________________________________________: I can't believe they told you to call them if you noticed any little change! Most responses are "see you in 6 weeks!"