Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 the more I think about this, the more it makes sense. I'm tempted to get myself on a patch. I've had it. The E creams and OO I've used seem to have NO effect on me whatsoever. My estradiol levels are always in the 30s! I'm tempted to ask for a patch myself but I'm such a sensitive allergic person that I know that glue will really bother me. This gyno I saw the other day would not prescribed Prometrium. He wanted to give me Megace to stop the bleeding. He looked at me cross-eyed when I told him I wouldn't use anything synthetic. ly, I was just too tired to explain to him. I used my Crinone Gel and the bleeding stopped. > > Hey guys, > > About three months ago, I got tired of flailing around > in fear and doubt and speculating and adjusting doses > of hormones randomly myself after going off the Wiley > Protocol because all the docs I had tried hadn't > really helped my intense fatigue, depression, low > energy, uterine hyperplasia, weird symptoms, so I > decided to go with an expert, Dr. Vliet. My > estradiol in 3 months went from about 50 to 144 at > last reading, TSH came down to normal, T3 and T4 are > ok, and I feel like I am coming alive again. What is > working for me is Vivelle Dot (estradiol) a patch > which delivers a steady dose of estradiol and I don't > seem to have those roller coaster fluctuations with > the cycled Wiley Protocol and other cycled protocols I > was trying. And so nice not to have to be a slave to > the clock and those creams! I use Prometrium > vaginally 12 days out of the month or every 6 weeks. > On Synthroid for thyroid and now starting > testosterone since she feels my estradiol is now > stabilized. It makes sense to me that regular steady > doses beat the cycling style because I find my mood > and mental function now are almost consistently in the > ballpark (no depression) instead of fluctuating and > making me nuts. A few months ago I had an ultra > sound and uterine biopsy that revealed a 2 centimeter > endometrial growth that I couldn't shed despite > several different hormone protocols prescribed by > several docs. I never had a good bleed that shed the > lining for years. The past two months I've had 2 good > bleeds with red blood and clots......hooray, finally > shedding the overgrowth. I've been using blood > values to check levels, not saliva. I could > speculate about what works and what doesn't till the > cows come home but the proof of the pudding for me is > hard facts: Altho all my symptoms haven't completely > abated I feel much better than I have in a long time > and it is worth the expense to work with somebody I > trust. I am following her instructions to a T and I > am relieved I am now not alone in this pioneering land > of HRT. > > Happy new year to you all. Danna > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. > http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 Yup -but why did I bleed so heavily? How could my uterine lining build up if I'm getting hot flashes from low E? I can't think of why I would bleed other than too MUCH E. It makes no sense! > > . The E creams and OO I've > used seem to have NO effect on me whatsoever. My estradiol levels > are always in the 30s! > > , I used the creams and OO, and using 12mg per day, got a level of 112. > My doc had no trouble writing the script at all, and in fact I use a bit > more than that now. You are using far less and getting far less satisfaction > and your levels show it. I wanted to use less, and tried for many months. I > did not get any relief until I used 9mg per day. Is your doc limiting you > even with a level of 30? > nne > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 Grrrrrrr. It's hopeless!! > > > In a message dated 1/4/2006 12:44:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, > merryr@u... writes: > > I'm tempted to ask for a patch myself but > I'm such a sensitive allergic person that I know that glue will > really bother me. > > > I'm VERY sensitive too, have to even cut lables out of my clothes, > LOL. I have tried the Dot, estraderm, climara...........the climara had the > stickiest back, couldn't use them.The .1mg V. Dot was the nicest, BUT didn't > give me enough E, but two may work.....I could ONLY use them on my legs. I > thought my butt would be OK, but NO....couldn't use the other spots they recomend > either, THIS may be why I whipped thru um fast too, lasted a day to day and > 1/2. Same with the estraderm, the estraderm has more E but doen't stay put as > well.......I still use the estraderm now and then, you can get them online > too. Worth a shot.....you may love them? OH I get good to high readings with the > OOE, how much were you using?? and how often?? I am good at 2mgs. in 5-6 > hour intervals.....I range from 8-12 mgs. a day. My Dr. has me weaning off WP > slowly, at 6 mgs. a day I start to loose hair, like a dog shedding, but 8-12 I > do good. No P, don't have parts, Good luck, don't give up, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 He's not happy that I'm using 4 mgs a day. And you should have seen the gyno's face when I told him that. I wish they would "get with the program" and do some investigating on these creams so they can advise their patients! I feel like some kind of pioneer in their offices because I turn down their synthetics. This is the 21st Century isn't it? OMG....... if it were ME, I'd find a NEW Dr.......and fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 What scares me and what scares a lot of us, is why do ex-WP users need so much E to have a life? Are we never going to be able to get down to what gynos call "normal BHRT levels"? Maybe normal women do not have so many activated estrogen receptors gasping to be fed, like spoiled babies. Think this is true, we woke um up, but when fed, OOOOOMG, how good it feels to be ALIVE!!! Maybe the truth is that the current "normal" E levels are too low......like the changing outlook on the TSH for thyroid......if your E is working together with your thyroid, ect......does a # really matter????????????? The thyroid people have thrown out the old TSH, maybe us post WP women need to rethink the #'s game too??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 I get problems with bleeding when I drop my E/OO down to 4-6mg/day. If I stay within 9-12mg/day I do much better, more energy, less brain fog and NO low back pains. But like you I always try to lower it with the usual bleeding results. Mad, think the last labs for that amount of OOE was only in the high 200's anyway.... so sounds like you know your "sweet spot".....you go girl, LOL...XOX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 They are proof! 4 mgs a day of E and all I get is a lousy <32??? MARY, 32 please............that's menopuse still, I don't feel good til I'm in the 200's. Actually for me, more like 400, LOLLOL........You may need a base for your E like G uses. THANK G, I have a good Dr. she looks at the BIG picture, and how I feel.......you just need a new Dr. Your Dr. works for you, ask the pharmacy near you who RX's Bio-HRT......and who they think can help you. I read the yellow pages and asked the local compounder.....then when in for a consult.....I interviewed her so to speak, LOL.....it's YOUR health, good luck, HUGS, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 I just have to up my E I think and then I 'll have to up my P. The problem is that I get pain with too much P. I have to be careful with that too. >, if your E is tooooo low, and you make it right, >WHY do you have to up your P, >may just off set the new E balance you finally reach.......if it were me, >I'd try and see how much E to make me feel better, before I worry about the P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 I think it's takes 12 mgs to FEEL anything through the creams and OO. Sorry but it just doesn't get into the bloodstream that easily. But the doctors get crazy when they hear the amounts. Why not just look at our labs??? They are proof! 4 mgs a day of E and all I get is a lousy <32??? > > > In a message dated 1/25/2006 10:31:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, > canhelp2@y... writes: > > What scares me and what scares a lot of us, is why do ex-WP users need so > much E to have a life? Are we never going to be able to get down to what gynos > call " normal BHRT levels " ? Maybe normal women do not have so many activated > estrogen receptors gasping to be fed, like spoiled babies. > > > > Think this is true, we woke um up, but when fed, OOOOOMG, how good it feels > to be ALIVE!!! Maybe the truth is that the current " normal " E levels are too > low......like the changing outlook on the TSH for thyroid......if your E is > working together with your thyroid, ect......does a # really > matter????????????? The thyroid people have thrown out the old TSH, maybe us post WP women > need to rethink the #'s game too??? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 Well he was a stand-in for my regular gyno. She was out that day so I went to her partner to get my endo biopsy. He was the one who made the remark! I just have to up my E I think and then I 'll have to up my P. The problem is that I get pain with too much P. I have to be careful with that too. > > > In a message dated 1/25/2006 10:15:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, > merryr@u... writes: > > He's not happy that I'm using 4 mgs a day. And you should have seen > the gyno's face when I told him that. I wish they would " get with > the program " and do some investigating on these creams so they can > advise their patients! I feel like some kind of pioneer in their > offices because I turn down their synthetics. This is the 21st > Century isn't it? > > > > > > > OMG....... if it were ME, I'd find a NEW Dr.......and > fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 When I upped to 4 mg of E per day and used very little P, I was still getting hot flashes and then after 5 months of no period, I started bleeding heavily out of the clear blue. So I assumed it was the 4 mg a day. But now I'm not so sure. I just think it's NOT getting through. Pat says I should have my saliva tested, but I already know I'm low! > > > In a message dated 1/25/2006 1:28:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, > merryr@u... writes: > > I just have to up my E I think and then I 'll have > to up my P. The problem is that I get pain with too much P. I have > to be careful with that too. > > > > > > >, if your E is tooooo low, and you make it right, > >WHY do you have to up your P, > >may just off set the new E balance you finally reach.......if it were me, > >I'd try and see how much E to make me feel better, before I worry about the > P. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 , I'm using 8mgs OOE and I'm thinking I need to up it. Just did another blood draw today so we will see. It's funny how dr's freak out about this. What DO they really have their fear based on? Have they had women who use high doses of E, die? My thinking. (uh,oh) is that we need more E than drs think. And that it gets a bad rap because the amounts they dole out are so small, of course problems are occurring. And it's all a balance. I have never been able to do any P. Even when I didn't know I couldn't do it. There's a REASON why, but I don't know why. It's not normal for the body to reject P or not stay in balance to begin with. So, to me it's what came first the chicken or the egg? Somewhere along the line I got messed up and messed up bad and ended up with cancer. But it wasn't because I was using high doses of E. It was because something else was out of whack and made me E dominant or low E, who knows. I was never monitored before I got the cancer.(Endometrial) I"m not sure what my point really is here Maybe don't be afraid of the E and keep an eye on things. Or find another dr? I pretty much tell my dr what I want to use and she prescribes it. She trusts that I know my body, at least more than she knows it. And it I get cancer down the line, well I do. I will deal with it. I'm still not great but getting a little better each day. Hugs, Liz From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:09 AMTo: rhythmicliving Subject: Re: getting well He's not happy that I'm using 4 mgs a day. And you should have seen the gyno's face when I told him that. I wish they would "get with the program" and do some investigating on these creams so they can advise their patients! I feel like some kind of pioneer in their offices because I turn down their synthetics. This is the 21st Century isn't it? >> . The E creams and OO I've > used seem to have NO effect on me whatsoever. My estradiol levels > are always in the 30s! > > , I used the creams and OO, and using 12mg per day, got a level of 112.> My doc had no trouble writing the script at all, and in fact I use a bit> more than that now. You are using far less and getting far less satisfaction> and your levels show it. I wanted to use less, and tried for many months. I> did not get any relief until I used 9mg per day. Is your doc limiting you> even with a level of 30?> nne> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 , it is obvious you are not absorbing your E. Your 32 may be your level without any outside E. You and your doc ought to be looking at results instead of the amount of cream slathered on. There is research that shows E is not well absorbed through a cream. I posted it here a few months ago. Val -----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 1:46 PMTo: rhythmicliving Subject: Re: getting wellI think it's takes 12 mgs to FEEL anything through the creams and OO. Sorry but it just doesn't get into the bloodstream that easily. But the doctors get crazy when they hear the amounts. Why not just look at our labs??? They are proof! 4 mgs a day of E and all I get is a lousy <32??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 I spot if I forget my E for a couple of days. Val -----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of Hey Mad - You mean when you LOWER your E, you get bleeding problems? You know now that I come to think of it, maybe that IS the problem. Too low E can cause bleeding too. And believe me, I do not use much P! I got scared because I was thinking that 4 mg of E cream a day was too high for me. But if my blood level says less than 32, what does that tell you? I should have shoved my blood test in my gyno's face! ! SEE THIS YOU IDIOT!!! But I'm worried because all I hear from docs is "you are endangering yourself and risking cancer". Could they be right? Well maybe or maybe not. But I wish I had them on my side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 Did you find out the reason for the endo cancer? My doctor tells me all the time that unopposed E will cause cancer of the uterus. There are studies to prove this and studies to prove that, and we STILL don't know what is dangerous. I swear I think it's the luck of the draw! Either you get cancer or you don't. No matter what you do. But it sure feels awful to not feel good and to sweat to death and every other damned thing that goes along with low E and low P. OO E and preservative-free E cream has proven to be useless for me. No symptoms relieved! > > > > . The E creams and OO I've > > used seem to have NO effect on me whatsoever. My estradiol levels > > are always in the 30s! > > > > , I used the creams and OO, and using 12mg per day, got a > level of 112. > > My doc had no trouble writing the script at all, and in fact I use > a bit > > more than that now. You are using far less and getting far less > satisfaction > > and your levels show it. I wanted to use less, and tried for many > months. I > > did not get any relief until I used 9mg per day. Is your doc > limiting you > > even with a level of 30? > > nne > > > > > > > > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/ > > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as > medical advice.** > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 I was told at the time I had the cancer that the only way to get it was unopposed E. But my levels had never been checked AND I was on compounded P. So either the P didn't do squat or it caused it to grow. How high have you gone on the OOE? Liz From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 2:31 PMTo: rhythmicliving Subject: Re: getting well Did you find out the reason for the endo cancer? My doctor tells me all the time that unopposed E will cause cancer of the uterus. There are studies to prove this and studies to prove that, and we STILL don't know what is dangerous. I swear I think it's the luck of the draw! Either you get cancer or you don't. No matter what you do. But it sure feels awful to not feel good and to sweat to death and every other damned thing that goes along with low E and low P. OO E and preservative-free E cream has proven to be useless for me. No symptoms relieved! > >> > . The E creams and OO I've > > used seem to have NO effect on me whatsoever. My estradiol levels > > are always in the 30s! > > > > , I used the creams and OO, and using 12mg per day, got a > level of 112.> > My doc had no trouble writing the script at all, and in fact I use > a bit> > more than that now. You are using far less and getting far less > satisfaction> > and your levels show it. I wanted to use less, and tried for many > months. I> > did not get any relief until I used 9mg per day. Is your doc > limiting you> > even with a level of 30?> > nne> >> > > > > > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/> > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as> medical advice.** > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 I never got higher than 4 mgs a day on OOE. See this is what worries me about NATURAL hormones. Who knows what the compounders are mixing in there? Only the compounders. Unless we have friends who work in a lab and can analyze it, how would we know for SURE what we are getting in the creams? I've used several different pharmacies and I get the same lousy results - no relief from meno symptoms and very low E levels. And doctors would like to BELIEVE the only way you can get cancer is unopposed E, but you can get it ANYWAY if you are prone to it. I swear I think it's just the luck of the draw (family history, etc). This makes me want to just give up on using any hormones, but that is certainly NOT living well. I am just unable to function with all my symptoms. One thing is for sure. NOT using any hormones is not an option for me. When I wasn't using anything, I got such a hormonal imbalance, that I was bleeding to death, developing tons of fibroids that the doctors blamed for the bleeding. So I had a uterine artery embolization to stop all blood flow to the fibroids that was supposed to shrink them and stop my bleeding. I figured okay this is it- no more bleeding. WRONG. My ovaries were affected because of this cute little procedure and they found that it actually was NOT the fibroids causing my bleeding, but my unbalance hormones!!! So having that procedure helped throw me into sudden menopause and hot flashes (never had a hot flash in my life before that damned UAE) and I was STILL bleeding to death! All guessing games. I throw my hands up into the air. I have no idea what to do at this point. > > > > > > . The E creams and OO I've > > > used seem to have NO effect on me whatsoever. My estradiol > levels > > > are always in the 30s! > > > > > > , I used the creams and OO, and using 12mg per day, got a > > level of 112. > > > My doc had no trouble writing the script at all, and in fact I > use > > a bit > > > more than that now. You are using far less and getting far less > > satisfaction > > > and your levels show it. I wanted to use less, and tried for > many > > months. I > > > did not get any relief until I used 9mg per day. Is your doc > > limiting you > > > even with a level of 30? > > > nne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/ > > > > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not > intended as > > medical advice.** > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 Val - I had great results using 8 mgs a day of E. My numbers FINALLY went up! But my doc has put the fear of God into me about using too much E. Another thing that occurs to me is that maybe those preservatives that were causing our dermatitis and other allergic reactions, also made the E work better. > > , it is obvious you are not absorbing your E. Your 32 may be your level > without any outside E. You and your doc ought to be looking at results > instead of the amount of cream slathered on. There is research that shows E > is not well absorbed through a cream. I posted it here a few months ago. > > Val > > Re: getting well > > > I think it's takes 12 mgs to FEEL anything through the creams and > OO. Sorry but it just doesn't get into the bloodstream that > easily. But the doctors get crazy when they hear the amounts. Why > not just look at our labs??? They are proof! 4 mgs a day of E and > all I get is a lousy <32??? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 I read it on PubMed but don't remember the particulars. Here's a good article on P cream hype: http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/182_05_070305/wre10534_fm.html Val -----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of lynnelalala@... Val, Please tell us where you read this research. L. I have read research that 32% of women on P cream develop hyperplasia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 The Estrogel directions say to apply it from wrist to shoulder on the inside of the arm. I found this did not allow for an adequate base because there is not enough fat there. I rub it on the fat of my stomach. It takes 72 hours to build a base and then releases more consistently. I've had tests 4 hrs after application and 20 hours after. At 20 hours, my E2 is down 10 points. Val -----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of on the fat of my inner thighs (just like the directions say) >> Where were you rubbing it?> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 Yes you are right - there is NOT enough fast from wrist to shoulder. But I have PLENTY on my inside thighs! I don't like the idea of putting it on my stomach. I don't know why. One thing that's great. NO dermatitis! > > > > Where were you rubbing it? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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