Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 I quite like mind stuff. I read a broadsheet, only listen to Radio 4, a goverment political current affairs programme, and once read loads of Jungian psychology and some Hegel. I found them to be the antithesis to the powerful arguments made by Buddhism. Now I wonder that if we make it a must to be not in our minds all the time we lose flexibilty and create an obssesion. I prefer to be casual about these things. When I was looking into into Buddhism I was surprised that I didn't like it much. They would say that the average man was like a cork in a river being bobbed up and down by its currents without control, while the Buddhist was on the bank not affected by these events. That's so boring I thought, I'm not being bobbod up and down by the currents, I'm swimming amongst the waves, sometimes with the currents and sometimes against them. Sometimes I lose control and it get scary, but am I learning all the time how to swim in this thing and this is fun. But when I need a rest, I will sit on the bank with the Buddhists. Why not just play the game I thought, afterall you are only here once. To be offered a life full of fantastic passion, desire, romance, love, lust, and then just throw it all away for safety just wasn't for me. I just wanted to fall in love again, I thought it was worth the risk. I think I was more cut out for a Rock and Roll Star life than that of a Buddha. I better keep working at that guitar! Kaivey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org > > > > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 I hope people don't take my last post too seriously, I can sometimes be a bit playful. Buddhism is more attractive to me now I am older. Kaivey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org > > > > > > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 There are the definitions for the DSMV code book, used by mental health professionals in the US. I'm not going to quote those! Here's what it looks like for me: Sadness - I think simple sadness is a response to a situation (real or imagined) where I feel helpless or I learn about things that just shouldn't be. I cry, I withdraw, I huge my teddy bear. It is a temporary state. A good example from my life is when I read " The Lovely Bones. " It truly is a wonderful book. It is also very sad. I cried frequently while reading it. My daughter applied a recently learned concept when she asked, " Mom why are you reading that book if it makes you sad? " I said, " Well, it is a really good book, it's just so sad. " " Hmm, mom is that book fiction or non-fiction? " " Fiction, " I replied. She began patting me on the shoulder and said, " It's ok mom, it didn't really happen. It's a made up story. " Depression - What I call the life-long state of my overall mood. DSMV calls this Dysthymia. When I look at yearbooks from 40 years ago, class mates signed things like " cheer up Barbie. " I feel hopeless and helpless. I believe a black cloud hovers over my life and can list thousands of facts to prove it. I want to cocoon and read books, watch movies or play my DS. I overeat. I am easily frustrated, angry and irritable. I regularly wish I was dead, but would never do it because I have responsibilities to take care of. Before I married and had a daughter, I'd tell myself that I'd die right after my Mom died. I needed to take care of her. I have always worked full time. Before I married I worked two jobs at a time. I'd call in sick for " mental health days " periodically. I chug along - for years with CBT I'd try to just buck up and get rid of bad thoughts. It never worked. Deep Depression or Major Depression - The big black dog, the deep down lows, the " if I only had the energy, I'd drive off a cliff " kind of depression has knocked me down periodically. I think that for me, it is only my core value of responsibility that has kept me just looking down the hole and starting to tip over, but grabbing a hold at the last minute. I've never been institutionalized like many who encounter the blackest black. For me, I rock in a semi fetal position and cry to the point of dehydration. I can sleep for 10-18 hours a day. I pound my wrists, wishing I had the courage to cut them. I stop eating and drinking. I think my husband, daughter, mother, and co-workers would be better off without me. I have non-stop rumination about my worklessness as a human being. I feel horrible guilt over things I cannot control. I hold myself against an unattainable standard of perfection and fail miserably. I have been on and off therapy for 30 years. I've been on and off anti-depressants for 30 years. Times when I've headed to the deep downs I've had my meds upped or changed. Paxil really messed me up and it took me over a year to get off of it. The withdrawl is horrid. I finally got off and started heading down the hole so I switched to Wellbutrin, which is not an SSRI. I don't know how it works, but it keeps me out of the hole. I added Celexa when I could not stop rumminating. It stopped my terrible monkey brain. Now I only think about 3-5 things at one time! When I'm heading down the hole I am unable get up and move towards a valued life. Once I grab on and slowly start to climb out of the black black, I try to focus on one or two things. The love and concern of and Kendra have pulled me from the tunnel several times over the past year and a half. For me the two meds I'm on now have helped climb out and stay out for the most part. I have hope for ACT to help me with my ongoing depression. I can see it working when I remember to use ACT. If I was in the big black, I don't think I'd have the ability to apply ACT concepts. Barbara S. > > There has ben a lot of interest in this subject; some of it above my head. > I, however, am interested in the heading. Why deep depression and not just depression. > Where is the demarcation line? > Surely everyone gets depressed; or do they all get deep depression? > I am happy that mine is just depression. > love and awareness to all > ivor > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 I recognize much of what you've said here, Barbara. I think many, whether in the health professions or not, can't comprehend what this looks like from the inside. I've lost several friends in my life for whom help was unavailable, but who I'm sure could have been helped by pharmacology of the sort that is considered off limits because either they're habit forming or some other reason. Of those pharmaceuticals that are available, some are better than others, while some seem to be absolutely useless. I'm glad there is something that is helpful for you. I'm on a couple of meds, too. It's useful to explain, at least from my POV, that I have no need or desire to be on these substances forever. In fact I wish I didn't have to take anything at all -- I only got to be on them because my attempts at self-medication, predominantly alcohol, stopped working for me, and in desperation I sought help. I don't know what's the matter with me, and it seems no one else does, either. There are interesting things being discovered in the science of neurobiology and I think eventually we, as a species, will know much, much more about how our brains work, and how to fix them when they're broken. In the meanwhile, I'm happy that there are such things as pharmacology and ACT. They all help to hold our lives together, at least until something better emerges, and I'm confident that it will. Kind regards, Detlef > > > > There has ben a lot of interest in this subject; some of it above my head. > > I, however, am interested in the heading. Why deep depression and not just depression. > > Where is the demarcation line? > > Surely everyone gets depressed; or do they all get deep depression? > > I am happy that mine is just depression. > > love and awareness to all > > ivor > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Barbara, thanks for those detailed descriptions. Your experience with depression is much like mine, except I almost never go down the dark hole anymore; I have been on an even keel for over a year now, for the most part. I don't know how I lived in that darkness for so long; I am SO thankful for ACT. Helena Re: Deep Depression There are the definitions for the DSMV code book, used by mental health professionals in the US. I'm not going to quote those!Here's what it looks like for me:Sadness - I think simple sadness is a response to a situation (real or imagined) where I feel helpless or I learn about things that just shouldn't be. I cry, I withdraw, I huge my teddy bear. It is a temporary state. A good example from my life is when I read "The Lovely Bones." It truly is a wonderful book. It is also very sad. I cried frequently while reading it. My daughter applied a recently learned concept when she asked, "Mom why are you reading that book if it makes you sad?" I said, "Well, it is a really good book, it's just so sad." "Hmm, mom is that book fiction or non-fiction?" "Fiction," I replied. She began patting me on the shoulder and said, "It's ok mom, it didn't really happen. It's a made up story."Depression - What I call the life-long state of my overall mood. DSMV calls this Dysthymia. When I look at yearbooks from 40 years ago, class mates signed things like "cheer up Barbie." I feel hopeless and helpless. I believe a black cloud hovers over my life and can list thousands of facts to prove it. I want to cocoon and read books, watch movies or play my DS. I overeat. I am easily frustrated, angry and irritable. I regularly wish I was dead, but would never do it because I have responsibilities to take care of. Before I married and had a daughter, I'd tell myself that I'd die right after my Mom died. I needed to take care of her. I have always worked full time. Before I married I worked two jobs at a time. I'd call in sick for "mental health days" periodically. I chug along - for years with CBT I'd try to just buck up and get rid of bad thoughts. It never worked.Deep Depression or Major Depression - The big black dog, the deep down lows, the "if I only had the energy, I'd drive off a cliff" kind of depression has knocked me down periodically. I think that for me, it is only my core value of responsibility that has kept me just looking down the hole and starting to tip over, but grabbing a hold at the last minute. I've never been institutionalized like many who encounter the blackest black. For me, I rock in a semi fetal position and cry to the point of dehydration. I can sleep for 10-18 hours a day. I pound my wrists, wishing I had the courage to cut them. I stop eating and drinking. I think my husband, daughter, mother, and co-workers would be better off without me. I have non-stop rumination about my worklessness as a human being. I feel horrible guilt over things I cannot control. I hold myself against an unattainable standard of perfection and fail miserably. I have been on and off therapy for 30 years. I've been on and off anti-depressants for 30 years. Times when I've headed to the deep downs I've had my meds upped or changed. Paxil really messed me up and it took me over a year to get off of it. The withdrawl is horrid. I finally got off and started heading down the hole so I switched to Wellbutrin, which is not an SSRI. I don't know how it works, but it keeps me out of the hole. I added Celexa when I could not stop rumminating. It stopped my terrible monkey brain. Now I only think about 3-5 things at one time!When I'm heading down the hole I am unable get up and move towards a valued life. Once I grab on and slowly start to climb out of the black black, I try to focus on one or two things. The love and concern of and Kendra have pulled me from the tunnel several times over the past year and a half. For me the two meds I'm on now have helped climb out and stay out for the most part.I have hope for ACT to help me with my ongoing depression. I can see it working when I remember to use ACT. If I was in the big black, I don't think I'd have the ability to apply ACT concepts. Barbara S.>> There has ben a lot of interest in this subject; some of it above my head.> I, however, am interested in the heading. Why deep depression and not just depression.> Where is the demarcation line?> Surely everyone gets depressed; or do they all get deep depression?> I am happy that mine is just depression.> love and awareness to all > ivor> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 "Dont' be so quick to judge." I wasn't judging, Helena. I was giving my point of view. And there was nothing quick about it. I promise. I thought it through. I always do. It would be nice to be able to give a different point of view without a bunch of hoopla! It really wasn't personal. Ginny Subject: Re: Deep DepressionTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 12:16 PM But Bill, we're using words to have this discussion. Surely the meaning of words is relevant to that? Otherwise why are we doing this?bb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Sorry, Ginny, I used a poor choice of words, and it especially seems so when taken out of context. All I meant to say was to not determine what works for others based on what works for you. I didn't mean to imply personal judgment, nor did I take your comments personally; it was a mistake to use the loaded "judge" word, and I'm sorry did. I also didn't mean to imply that you didn't give your opinion much thought by using the word "quick". I thought your response was thoughtful and well stated. "Judge." "Quick." Getting bogged down in words seems to happen to all of us from time to time. You commented "don't put so much energy into all this mind stuff." I agree. Hoopla Helena : ) Re: Deep DepressionTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 12:16 PM But Bill, we're using words to have this discussion. Surely the meaning of words is relevant to that? Otherwise why are we doing this?bb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Ginny: You didn't like it when you thought I was accusing you of being judgmental and not thinking things through. Neither of which is true, as I hope you realize from my explanation in my last email. So why would you describe my response to your opinon as "a bunch of hoopla?" I really don't get it, and I don't like it, either. Helena Re: Deep DepressionTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 12:16 PM But Bill, we're using words to have this discussion. Surely the meaning of words is relevant to that? Otherwise why are we doing this?bb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 << " Judge. " " Quick. " Getting bogged down in words seems to happen to all of us from time to time.>> It’s the words, Helena. They are quicksand. Ultimately they defy definition. My depression is never going to be your depression. My depression is sitting here in this chair looking out on a summer day thinking about my 90yo father and the tussle he is becoming for my wife and I. Your depression... well, you know what it is, there in your chair... I'm not saying there should be no definitions. They're fine in their place. But in this work - here, now, at this moment in ALL our respective chairs - well, we just need to be aware how huge a distraction they can be. Besides, what you give here, what this list gives, is so more valuable than definitions.... Best regards to all Tom Hardy ________________________________________ From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of Helena Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 2:29 PM To: ACT for the Public Subject: Re: Re: Deep Depression Sorry, Ginny, I used a poor choice of words, and it especially seems so when taken out of context. All I meant to say was to not determine what works for others based on what works for you. I didn't mean to imply personal judgment, nor did I take your comments personally; it was a mistake to use the loaded " judge " word, and I'm sorry did. I also didn't mean to imply that you didn't give your opinion much thought by using the word " quick " . I thought your response was thoughtful and well stated. " Judge. " " Quick. " Getting bogged down in words seems to happen to all of us from time to time. You commented " don't put so much energy into all this mind stuff. " I agree. Hoopla Helena : ) Re: Deep Depression To: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 12:16 PM But Bill, we're using words to have this discussion. Surely the meaning of words is relevant to that? Otherwise why are we doing this? bb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org > > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 My depression has just hit back in a big way.. it's 2am and I can't sleep, despite having taken a benzo (which is another thing to feel bad about). I've been drinking heavily recently, and despite having had a good time with friends and family the past few days feel completely alone and hopeless. Although I think my posts about word meanings were valid, I'm also painfully aware of how much I use thinking as a way of avoiding feeling. It's been the case since I was a young child. And however long I stay out of the trap, I end up falling back into it. Oh well, whinge over. I guess I just wanted to express that I'm not some sort of emotionless word robot. best to all, bb > > << " Judge. " " Quick. " Getting bogged down > in words seems to happen to all of us > from time to time.>> > > It’s the words, Helena. They are quicksand. Ultimately they defy definition. My depression is never going to be your depression. My depression is sitting here in this chair looking out on a summer day thinking about my 90yo father and the tussle he is becoming for my wife and I. Your depression... well, you know what it is, there in your chair... > > I'm not saying there should be no definitions. They're fine in their place. But in this work - here, now, at this moment in ALL our respective chairs - well, we just need to be aware how huge a distraction they can be. > > Besides, what you give here, what this list gives, is so more valuable than definitions.... > > Best regards to all > Tom Hardy > > > ________________________________________ > From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of Helena > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 2:29 PM > To: ACT for the Public > Subject: Re: Re: Deep Depression > > > Sorry, Ginny, I used a poor choice of words, and it especially seems so when taken out of context. All I meant to say was to not determine what works for others based on what works for you. I didn't mean to imply personal judgment, nor did I take your comments personally; it was a mistake to use the loaded " judge " word, and I'm sorry did. I also didn't mean to imply that you didn't give your opinion much thought by using the word " quick " . I thought your response was thoughtful and well stated. > > " Judge. " " Quick. " Getting bogged down in words seems to happen to all of us from time to time. You commented " don't put so much energy into all this mind stuff. " I agree. > > Hoopla Helena : ) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 How about "caring, passionate word robot!" Try imagining the space between things - like your thumb and forefinger; the space between your eyes; between the books on your shelf; the clothes in your closet. This is from Open Focus Brain by Les Fehmi. I use it when I can't sleep. It's the last thing I remember when I wake up in the morning.> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:20:28 +0000> Subject: Re: Deep Depression> > My depression has just hit back in a big way.. it's 2am and I can't sleep, despite having taken a benzo (which is another thing to feel bad about). I've been drinking heavily recently, and despite having had a good time with friends and family the past few days feel completely alone and hopeless.> > Although I think my posts about word meanings were valid, I'm also painfully aware of how much I use thinking as a way of avoiding feeling. It's been the case since I was a young child. And however long I stay out of the trap, I end up falling back into it.> > Oh well, whinge over. I guess I just wanted to express that I'm not some sort of emotionless word robot.> > best to all,> bb> > > >> > <<"Judge." "Quick." Getting bogged down > > in words seems to happen to all of us > > from time to time.>>> > > > It’s the words, Helena. They are quicksand. Ultimately they defy definition. My depression is never going to be your depression. My depression is sitting here in this chair looking out on a summer day thinking about my 90yo father and the tussle he is becoming for my wife and I. Your depression... well, you know what it is, there in your chair...> > > > I'm not saying there should be no definitions. They're fine in their place. But in this work - here, now, at this moment in ALL our respective chairs - well, we just need to be aware how huge a distraction they can be.> > > > Besides, what you give here, what this list gives, is so more valuable than definitions....> > > > Best regards to all> > Tom Hardy > > > > > > ________________________________________> > From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of Helena> > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 2:29 PM> > To: ACT for the Public> > Subject: Re: Re: Deep Depression> > > > > > Sorry, Ginny, I used a poor choice of words, and it especially seems so when taken out of context. All I meant to say was to not determine what works for others based on what works for you. I didn't mean to imply personal judgment, nor did I take your comments personally; it was a mistake to use the loaded "judge" word, and I'm sorry did. I also didn't mean to imply that you didn't give your opinion much thought by using the word "quick". I thought your response was thoughtful and well stated.> > > > "Judge." "Quick." Getting bogged down in words seems to happen to all of us from time to time. You commented "don't put so much energy into all this mind stuff." I agree. > > > > Hoopla Helena : )> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Whinge away, BB. That trap is a second home for all of us. We’ll be crawling out of it until our final days, probably. Sisyphus, you got nothin’ on us! best regards, Tom Hardy _____ From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of Bill CAMERON Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 6:57 PM To: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: RE: Re: Deep Depression How about " caring, passionate word robot! " Smile <http://gfx1.hotmail.com/mail/w4/m3/ltr/emo/smile.gif> Try imagining the space between things - like your thumb and forefinger; the space between your eyes; between the books on your shelf; the clothes in your closet. This is from Open Focus Brain by Les Fehmi. I use it when I can't sleep. It's the last thing I remember when I wake up in the morning. > To: ACT_for_the_Public > From: banoffi@... > Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:20:28 +0000 > Subject: Re: Deep Depression > > My depression has just hit back in a big way.. it's 2am and I can't sleep, despite having taken a benzo (which is another thing to feel bad about). I've been drinking heavily recently, and despite having had a good time with friends and family the past few days feel completely alone and hopeless. > > Although I think my posts about word meanings were valid, I'm also painfully aware of how much I use thinking as a way of avoiding feeling. It's been the case since I was a young child. And however long I stay out of the trap, I end up falling back into it. > > Oh well, whinge over. I guess I just wanted to express that I'm not some sort of emotionless word robot. > > best to all, > bb > > > > > > << " Judge. " " Quick. " Getting bogged down > > in words seems to happen to all of us > > from time to time.>> > > > > It’s the words, Helena. They are quicksand. Ultimately they defy definition. My depression is never going to be your depression. My depression is sitting here in this chair looking out on a summer day thinking about my 90yo father and the tussle he is becoming for my wife and I. Your depression... well, you know what it is, there in your chair... > > > > I'm not saying there should be no definitions. They're fine in their place. But in this work - here, now, at this moment in ALL our respective chairs - well, we just need to be aware how huge a distraction they can be. > > > > Besides, what you give here, what this list gives, is so more valuable than definitions.... > > > > Best regards to all > > Tom Hardy > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of Helena > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 2:29 PM > > To: ACT for the Public > > Subject: Re: Re: Deep Depression > > > > > > Sorry, Ginny, I used a poor choice of words, and it especially seems so when taken out of context. All I meant to say was to not determine what works for others based on what works for you. I didn't mean to imply personal judgment, nor did I take your comments personally; it was a mistake to use the loaded " judge " word, and I'm sorry did. I also didn't mean to imply that you didn't give your opinion much thought by using the word " quick " . I thought your response was thoughtful and well stated. > > > > " Judge. " " Quick. " Getting bogged down in words seems to happen to all of us from time to time. You commented " don't put so much energy into all this mind stuff. " I agree. > > > > Hoopla Helena : ) > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Helena, I am sooooo not going to get in a sparing match with you. I've seen how these threads go. Best to just stick with your first good-hearted response where you added Hoopla to your name. That was funny and cute and in the best of spirits. On we go, Ginny Subject: Re: Deep DepressionTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 12:16 PM But Bill, we're using words to have this discussion. Surely the meaning of words is relevant to that? Otherwise why are we doing this?bb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 > > How about " caring, passionate word robot! " I'd buy one of those! =) > Try imagining the space between things - like your thumb and forefinger; the space between your eyes; between the books on your shelf; the clothes in your closet. This is from Open Focus Brain by Les Fehmi. I use it when I can't sleep. It's the last thing I remember when I wake up in the morning. Hm.. that sounds very interesting. I'll remember it for next time. Thanks Bill! bb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Thanks, Ginny. No desire to spar here. I was feeling so bad and I remembered my shrink telling me to "just put your cards on the table, clearly and honestly" when you feel that way. So I did, but shouldn't have on this forum. I have no one in my life, physically present, to talk to, so I sometimes talk/vent via email out of sheer lonliness. And that's not fair to you. So I thank you for not wanting to engage in anything negative. I have been posting way too much lately so will cut it down and let others have the floor. I apologize. Helena Re: Deep DepressionTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 12:16 PM But Bill, we're using words to have this discussion. Surely the meaning of words is relevant to that? Otherwise why are we doing this?bb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Thank you Barbara for your reply. I can 'feel' every word in that reply. Like you I trust that ACT is going to help but it is difficult to apply at the worst times. I have been in hospital in the past having over 20 ECT's ivor Re: Deep Depression There are the definitions for the DSMV code book, used by mental health professionals in the US. I'm not going to quote those!Here's what it looks like for me:Sadness - I think simple sadness is a response to a situation (real or imagined) where I feel helpless or I learn about things that just shouldn't be. I cry, I withdraw, I huge my teddy bear. It is a temporary state. A good example from my life is when I read "The Lovely Bones." It truly is a wonderful book. It is also very sad. I cried frequently while reading it. My daughter applied a recently learned concept when she asked, "Mom why are you reading that book if it makes you sad?" I said, "Well, it is a really good book, it's just so sad." "Hmm, mom is that book fiction or non-fiction?" "Fiction," I replied. She began patting me on the shoulder and said, "It's ok mom, it didn't really happen. It's a made up story."Depression - What I call the life-long state of my overall mood. DSMV calls this Dysthymia. When I look at yearbooks from 40 years ago, class mates signed things like "cheer up Barbie." I feel hopeless and helpless. I believe a black cloud hovers over my life and can list thousands of facts to prove it. I want to cocoon and read books, watch movies or play my DS. I overeat. I am easily frustrated, angry and irritable. I regularly wish I was dead, but would never do it because I have responsibilities to take care of. Before I married and had a daughter, I'd tell myself that I'd die right after my Mom died. I needed to take care of her. I have always worked full time. Before I married I worked two jobs at a time. I'd call in sick for "mental health days" periodically. I chug along - for years with CBT I'd try to just buck up and get rid of bad thoughts. It never worked.Deep Depression or Major Depression - The big black dog, the deep down lows, the "if I only had the energy, I'd drive off a cliff" kind of depression has knocked me down periodically. I think that for me, it is only my core value of responsibility that has kept me just looking down the hole and starting to tip over, but grabbing a hold at the last minute. I've never been institutionalized like many who encounter the blackest black. For me, I rock in a semi fetal position and cry to the point of dehydration. I can sleep for 10-18 hours a day. I pound my wrists, wishing I had the courage to cut them. I stop eating and drinking. I think my husband, daughter, mother, and co-workers would be better off without me. I have non-stop rumination about my worklessness as a human being. I feel horrible guilt over things I cannot control. I hold myself against an unattainable standard of perfection and fail miserably. I have been on and off therapy for 30 years. I've been on and off anti-depressants for 30 years. Times when I've headed to the deep downs I've had my meds upped or changed. Paxil really messed me up and it took me over a year to get off of it. The withdrawl is horrid. I finally got off and started heading down the hole so I switched to Wellbutrin, which is not an SSRI. I don't know how it works, but it keeps me out of the hole. I added Celexa when I could not stop rumminating. It stopped my terrible monkey brain. Now I only think about 3-5 things at one time!When I'm heading down the hole I am unable get up and move towards a valued life. Once I grab on and slowly start to climb out of the black black, I try to focus on one or two things. The love and concern of and Kendra have pulled me from the tunnel several times over the past year and a half. For me the two meds I'm on now have helped climb out and stay out for the most part.I have hope for ACT to help me with my ongoing depression. I can see it working when I remember to use ACT. If I was in the big black, I don't think I'd have the ability to apply ACT concepts. Barbara S.>> There has ben a lot of interest in this subject; some of it above my head.> I, however, am interested in the heading. Why deep depression and not just depression.> Where is the demarcation line?> Surely everyone gets depressed; or do they all get deep depression?> I am happy that mine is just depression.> love and awareness to all > ivor> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Nice metaphor, Tom. Each time I push the boulder a bit further up the mountain I get complacent and let myself fall into the bad old habits of experiential avoidance, thought games, binge drinking etc. And down rolls the boulder! It's better than being poor old Prometheus though. bb > > Whinge away, BB. That trap is a second home for all of us. We’ll be crawling out of it until our final days, probably. Sisyphus, you got nothin’ on us! > > best regards, > Tom Hardy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 I suppose ACTually we could just let go of the boulder and climb without it? bb > > > > Whinge away, BB. That trap is a second home for all of us. We’ll be crawling out of it until our final days, probably. Sisyphus, you got nothin’ on us! > > > > best regards, > > Tom Hardy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 i just read this. YEP, this sounds like me too. Just letting you know you are not alone. Tom > > > > There has ben a lot of interest in this subject; some of it above my head. > > I, however, am interested in the heading. Why deep depression and not just depression. > > Where is the demarcation line? > > Surely everyone gets depressed; or do they all get deep depression? > > I am happy that mine is just depression. > > love and awareness to all > > ivor > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 Hi Ginny, This is the response that I will remember. Thank you! I hope we can be friends here.Helena Re: Deep DepressionTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 12:16 PM But Bill, we're using words to have this discussion. Surely the meaning of words is relevant to that? Otherwise why are we doing this?bb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 Dear Helena  In the darkest, loneliest times - I keep checking this listssrev,  Thank you for being you, thank you for being there.  Please don't go. I always check in when I see its from you. I don't usually respond, online, but your honesty touches me deeply,  Humbly Ingrid  Hi Ginny,  This is the response that I will remember. Thank you! I hope we can be friends here.Helena Re: Deep DepressionTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 12:16 PM  But Bill, we're using words to have this discussion. Surely the meaning of words is relevant to that? Otherwise why are we doing this?bb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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