Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 For me, knowing what is the cause of something would give me options for solutions.  If my depression IS caused by lack of certain molecules then that gives me a way, perhaps, of altering their amounts in my body.  Or if it's not physical, then that too would effect how I might be able to address it in my life.  Or maybe a combination?  Knowing reasons gives you the knowledge to reach for the right tools, what's that old saying about " to a hammer every thing looks like a nail " - (or something like that). If I've got a screw (loose?) then I want a screwdriver, not a hammer Kate  I see no value in those kinds of questions or that line of reasoning concerning the causes or origins of depression. Who cares if its origin is biological or environmental, or both (and no one really knows for sure, although some have strong opinions). What difference would that make?  If you get cancer, do you blame a gene that made you susceptible, do you blame unhealthy habits, or do you blame both? It makes no difference. What you focus on is " OK --  what can I do now to continue living a valued life for as long as possible. "  Then you do that.  Helena  Re: Deep Depression  I get what you are saying in regards to clinical depression..Does one get some sort of relief knowing that it is not of their own doing...is it easier to accept?I wonder, because, if a doctor was to tell me that the anxiety I experience is biological, and nothing I can do about...would I let go of trying to control it, get rid of it... Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 Hi Kate, Valid points, all. If I thought it were possible to know the cause of my depression, I would want to know. I just don't think it is possible so I just accept that. I follow (with great interest) all the latest scientific findings about how the mind/body works and have concluded that it is still very much a mystery. No psychiatrist has ever been able to pinpoint a cause for me; most say it is a combination of many factors, some of which are unknown at this point. That's not to say I have given up and am resigned to it. Most of the time, I exercise, eat healthfully, keep my mind engaged, etc., because all these things have been shown to ameliorate depression. And if course, I try to practice ACT daily. Helena Re: Deep Depression I get what you are saying in regards to clinical depression..Does one get some sort of relief knowing that it is not of their own doing...is it easier to accept?I wonder, because, if a doctor was to tell me that the anxiety I experience is biological, and nothing I can do about...would I let go of trying to control it, get rid of it...Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 Helena, I hope you will just watch what your mind does after you get done reading what I have to say. I think your mind is going to hate this. " That's not to say I have given up and am resigned to it. Most of the time, I exercise, eat healthfully, keep my mind engaged, etc., because all these things have been shown to ameliorate depression. And if course, I try to practice ACT daily. " I wonder if you can see how contradictory this statement is? Eating healthfully, exercising, etc.. in the service of a value, is ACT consistant. Doing these things to make the depression better is not. I know what this is like. I have been there. I battled for years trying to find something to make my depression better. Only when was able to let the depression be there, and do things that moved me in the direction of my values, and stop looking for answers to questions that didn't matter, did I realize that it didn't matter if I was depressed or not. And that it doesn't matter. I don't believe you can have full acceptance of depression, while doing things to make it better. Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 Thanks Greg. I will stop exercising, eating right, keeping my mind engaged, etc. immediately. Oops. I can't, because they support one of my core values -- maintaining my physical and mental health to the best of my ability. Guess I'll continue to accept my depression and do the health-nut stuff, too; I'll just suffer the beneficial side effects. <Big grin> Helena Re: Deep Depression Helena, I hope you will just watch what your mind does after you get done reading what I have to say. I think your mind is going to hate this."That's not to say I have given up and am resigned to it. Most of the time, I exercise, eat healthfully, keep my mind engaged, etc., because all these things have been shown to ameliorate depression. And if course, I try to practice ACT daily."I wonder if you can see how contradictory this statement is? Eating healthfully, exercising, etc.. in the service of a value, is ACT consistant. Doing these things to make the depression better is not. I know what this is like. I have been there. I battled for years trying to find something to make my depression better. Only when was able to let the depression be there, and do things that moved me in the direction of my values, and stop looking for answers to questions that didn't matter, did I realize that it didn't matter if I was depressed or not. And that it doesn't matter.I don't believe you can have full acceptance of depression, while doing things to make it better. Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 What if the word " depression " can be taken to mean (a) the difficult feelings of sadness, anxiety etc I am experiencing right now and/or ( the ongoing behavioural/biological state that would count as a medical diagnosis (say) of depression? Now, clearly the validity of ( is up for debate. But personally I find it accords with my experience. In which case, using ACT to avoid (a) is contradictory, but using it as a means of moving out of ( might not be, particularly if we emphasise the behavioural side. Just my 2p worth. bb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 I have not found it very useful to parse words or thoughts precisely or carefully to explain away my anxiety. That is still struggling. My ahaaaa ACT experience came when I stopped all the word and mind games and focused on my values and committed action towards those values. I think I finally got tired of the whole "groundhog day" process. The definition of insanity is continuing to try the same thing over and over and expecting the result to be different.Bill> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:06:25 +0000> Subject: Re: Deep Depression> > What if the word "depression" can be taken to mean (a) the difficult feelings of sadness, anxiety etc I am experiencing right now and/or ( the ongoing behavioural/biological state that would count as a medical diagnosis (say) of depression?> > Now, clearly the validity of ( is up for debate. But personally I find it accords with my experience. In which case, using ACT to avoid (a) is contradictory, but using it as a means of moving out of ( might not be, particularly if we emphasise the behavioural side.> > Just my 2p worth.> > bb> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 But Bill, we're using words to have this discussion. Surely the meaning of words is relevant to that? Otherwise why are we doing this? bb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org > > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 I like that Bill...to sum it up, you said " screw it, on with my life " Personally I need to get more into the value/action part of it...you have any suggestions that you learned along the way that helped you with that part? Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org > > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 Of course we need words to have a discussion with each other. But I said "I have not found it very useful to parse words or thoughts precisely or carefully to explain away my anxiety." I was talking about how I use words in my head to get try to rid of my anxiety. My thinking self thrives on that kind of stuff (hijack my bus). I thought I saw some of that in your post. I don't think it's a matter of a) or . Of course it depends on what you mean by "using it as a means of moving out of ." If you mean simply accepting as your condition then bravo. a) and are like passengers on my bus. Acceptance is taking them along without malice, etc. They are going along no matter what. What's the use in explaining them?But ACT is not about "moving out" of anything. If, when you say "emphasize the behavioral side," you mean committed action towards a valued life then bravo.Bill> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:16:11 +0000> Subject: Re: Deep Depression> > But Bill, we're using words to have this discussion. Surely the meaning of words is relevant to that? Otherwise why are we doing this?> > bb> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > > > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > > > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 I actually wrote those exact words and then decided against them! Thanks for clearing up my obfuscation!!!I looked at my calendar and my checkbook to see how I was using my capacity, putting the results in one of two columns - keep doing and stop doing. Then I looked around for things to start doing that fit with my values (like the things in the keep doing column.) . And then I started doing more things like that. COMMITTED ACTION TOWARDS A VALUED LIFE. I actually made a PowerPoint presentation to my ACT therapist of the result. She smiled and said "I think you've figured it out." My thinking self hates it that I have figured it out and constantly tries to distract me so I DEFUSE. My anxious nature is still there in my gut so I ACCEPT it (over and over and over). My OBSERVING SELF helps me see when thoughts and feelings get in the way. I need to work on more AWARENESS OF THE PRESENT.Bill> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:53:06 +0000> Subject: Re: Deep Depression> > I like that Bill...to sum it up, you said "screw it, on with my life"> > Personally I need to get more into the value/action part of it...you have any suggestions that you learned along the way that helped you with that part?> > Thanks> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > > > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > > > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 Bill, undoubtedly I wasn't making myself clear. But I don't think ( is anything like passengers on a bus. To be really precise, let's say that ( is " depression " defined *purely as a set of ongoing behaviours*. In which case, unless " being depressed " really is one of one's values (doubtful but possible I suppose - I used to be a huge sey fan) than ACT is definitely a means out of it (remembering that " it " is a set of unvalued behaviours). I'm just trying to make the point that " depression " can be interpreted as more than just a bundle of feelings. cheers, bb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org > > > > > > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org > > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 I agree it's not useful "to parse words or thoughts precisely or carefully to explain away anxiety." I see how that could become a useless mind game, especially if it's to 'explain away' anxiety...or depression. However, to define the word "depression" in this discussion is useful, because one person may be writing about it from perspective (a) while the other is thinking of it in terms of perspective (. Thus, clarity about the term is useful and facilitates communication. Throwing out making useful definitions in order to avoid wordy mind-games is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, IMO. But if that's what YOU need to do in order to keep yourself out of that trap, I get it. Helena Re: Deep Depression> > What if the word "depression" can be taken to mean (a) the difficult feelings of sadness, anxiety etc I am experiencing right now and/or ( the ongoing behavioural/biological state that would count as a medical diagnosis (say) of depression?> > Now, clearly the validity of ( is up for debate. But personally I find it accords with my experience. In which case, using ACT to avoid (a) is contradictory, but using it as a means of moving out of ( might not be, particularly if we emphasise the behavioural side.> > Just my 2p worth.> > bb> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 If being really precise helps one ACCEPT it then bravo. Even if it's "more than just a bundle of feelings" it still has to be accepted to stop the struggle. All this defining sounds like struggling to me. The energy that goes into defining it and regularly making sure the definition is still correct is energy that could be used for a more valued purpose (unless properly labeling the crap in one's backpack is a useful towards living a valued life) But perhaps one must struggle some to be fully ready to ACCEPT. I did.I will give you the last word.Bill> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:28:22 +0000> Subject: Re: Deep Depression> > Bill, undoubtedly I wasn't making myself clear. But I don't think ( is anything like passengers on a bus. To be really precise, let's say that ( is "depression" defined *purely as a set of ongoing behaviours*.> > In which case, unless "being depressed" really is one of one's values (doubtful but possible I suppose - I used to be a huge sey fan) than ACT is definitely a means out of it (remembering that "it" is a set of unvalued behaviours).> > I'm just trying to make the point that "depression" can be interpreted as more than just a bundle of feelings.> > cheers,> bb> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > > > > > > > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > > > > > > > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > > > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > > > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@! Groups Links> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------> > > > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > > > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 Thanks for clarifying my context so well, Helena. Also re another post, I don't think that " screw it " really sums up the defusion, acceptance and mindfulness aspects of ACT. Although naturally someone has turned it into a therapy (http://www.amazon.com/F-k-Ultimate-Spiritual-Way/dp/1401927599/ ) bb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org > > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 Whatever. Wordy mind games or not. In the end it still has to be accepted to live a useful life. To: ACT_for_the_Public From: hbbr@...Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:37:19 +0000Subject: Re: Re: Deep Depression I agree it's not useful "to parse words or thoughts precisely or carefully to explain away anxiety." I see how that could become a useless mind game, especially if it's to 'explain away' anxiety...or depression. However, to define the word "depression" in this discussion is useful, because one person may be writing about it from perspective (a) while the other is thinking of it in terms of perspective (. Thus, clarity about the term is useful and facilitates communication. Throwing out making useful definitions in order to avoid wordy mind-games is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, IMO. But if that's what YOU need to do in order to keep yourself out of that trap, I get it. Helena Re: Deep Depression> > What if the word "depression" can be taken to mean (a) the difficult feelings of sadness, anxiety etc I am experiencing right now and/or ( the ongoing behavioural/biological state that would count as a medical diagnosis (say) of depression?> > Now, clearly the validity of ( is up for debate. But personally I find it accords with my experience. In which case, using ACT to avoid (a) is contradictory, but using it as a means of moving out of ( might not be, particularly if we emphasise the behavioural side.> > Just my 2p worth.> > bb> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 Are you having a bad day? Re: Deep Depression> > What if the word "depression" can be taken to mean (a) the difficult feelings of sadness, anxiety etc I am experiencing right now and/or ( the ongoing behavioural/biological state that would count as a medical diagnosis (say) of depression?> > Now, clearly the validity of ( is up for debate. But personally I find it accords with my experience. In which case, using ACT to avoid (a) is contradictory, but using it as a means of moving out of ( might not be, particularly if we emphasise the behavioural side.> > Just my 2p worth.> > bb> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 I can that see we're not going to agree on this, and that it's because we're putting different frames around each other's words. Never mind. Web forums are tricky at best when it comes to meaningful discussion. At least this one disproves Godwin. =) bb > > > If being really precise helps one ACCEPT it then bravo. Even if it's " more than just a bundle of feelings " it still has to be accepted to stop the struggle. All this defining sounds like struggling to me. The energy that goes into defining it and regularly making sure the definition is still correct is energy that could be used for a more valued purpose (unless properly labeling the crap in one's backpack is a useful towards living a valued life) But perhaps one must struggle some to be fully ready to ACCEPT. I did. > > I will give you the last word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 Actually it's a pretty good day except for getting sucked into this thread. I've discovered myself "trying to be right" with others who are trying to be right - a struggle. Should have known better.To: ACT_for_the_Public From: hbbr@...Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 20:13:12 +0000Subject: Re: Re: Deep Depression Are you having a bad day? Re: Deep Depression> > What if the word "depression" can be taken to mean (a) the difficult feelings of sadness, anxiety etc I am experiencing right now and/or ( the ongoing behavioural/biological state that would count as a medical diagnosis (say) of depression?> > Now, clearly the validity of ( is up for debate. But personally I find it accords with my experience. In which case, using ACT to avoid (a) is contradictory, but using it as a means of moving out of ( might not be, particularly if we emphasise the behavioural side.> > Just my 2p worth.> > bb> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 That's OK! Sometimes you're the sucker, sometimes the suckee. Equal opportunity list! Helena Re: Deep Depression> > What if the word "depression" can be taken to mean (a) the difficult feelings of sadness, anxiety etc I am experiencing right now and/or ( the ongoing behavioural/biological state that would count as a medical diagnosis (say) of depression?> > Now, clearly the validity of ( is up for debate. But personally I find it accords with my experience. In which case, using ACT to avoid (a) is contradictory, but using it as a means of moving out of ( might not be, particularly if we emphasise the behavioural side.> > Just my 2p worth.> > bb> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 You're welcome. I howled when I saw that book title! I was tempted to order it. Helena Re: Deep Depression Thanks for clarifying my context so well, Helena.Also re another post, I don't think that "screw it" really sums up the defusion, acceptance and mindfulness aspects of ACT. Although naturally someone has turned it into a therapy (http://www.amazon.com/F-k-Ultimate-Spiritual-Way/dp/1401927599/ )bb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org > > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 I think the main conflict here is between those who read the forum as " doing ACT " and those who read it as " about ACT " . Nothing is as misleading as confusing X with meta-X. But I really will shut up now. =) bb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org > > > > > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > > > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 Ditto(it's a bit of a bugger sometimes being in a different time zone to many on the list - you get into these meaty discussions when I'm asleep in bed! :-) )Kate Yes. Helena Re: Deep Depression I think the main conflict here is between those who read the forum as " doing ACT " and those who read it as " about ACT " . Nothing is as misleading as confusing X with meta-X. But I really will shut up now. =) bb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 I thought the discussion was like a sponge that could hold no more water. Also, when I start to get frustrated (more than a little) and uncomfortable in a discussion, I tend to say things I later regret, and that goes against my value of being kind to others, which trumps the value of contributing meaning to discourse. What makes me uncomfortable is when points are being repeated over and over with no increased understanding or agreement. I do think it was an educational discussion and I learned a lot from it -- so to each of the participants, thank you! Helena Re: Deep Depression > > I should have let this go, but I didn't because I think I am being needlessly misjudged, and that is uncomfortable. So I'll let go of that mattering. And accept the discomfort. Should you have let it go? Should I? I think the discussion we were having was more than idle chat, and therefore it was worth trying to move it to a point of clarity and resolution (if not agreement). If contributing meaning to discourse is one of one's values, of course it's going to lead to frustration, anxiety and disappointment at times. The subtle point is to know when you're living your value, and when you're being pushed around by the uncomfortable feelings. Not so easy!Thanks, everyone, for this wonderful opportunity to practice and learn!bb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Are you saying you value sleep, Kate? Helena : ) Re: Deep Depression I think the main conflict here is between those who read the forum as "doing ACT" and those who read it as "about ACT". Nothing is as misleading as confusing X with meta-X. But I really will shut up now. =)bb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ........huh? huh? what did I miss?? :-) Are you saying you value sleep, Kate? Helena : ) Re: Deep Depression I think the main conflict here is between those who read the forum as " doing ACT " and those who read it as " about ACT " . Nothing is as misleading as confusing X with meta-X. But I really will shut up now. =) bb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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