Guest guest Posted August 15, 2010 Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 Subject: Deep Depression To: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Sunday, 15 August, 2010, 20:17 Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? Thank you. ... Hi , Sorry to hear about your depression. I can sympathise and I've been depressed these last couple of weeks after feeling so much better for a while. I am not sure that I can identify a part of me that doesn't want to feel better but I do often feel I just don't have the energy to deal with the depression when I am very depressed. I see it more as myself shutting down for a while, maybe to conserve energy. I do try and remember that eventually the deptression is likely to pass if I just manage to wait for my mind to recover a bit. Are you asking about how to find the energy to work with other depressed people. I don't have experience of that as I'm not a therapist but I do know that unless I am feeling well I sometimes don't have enough of myself left over to help others. I hope you feel much better soon. Give those feelings space but maybe also time? BW, S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2010 Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 Hi ,I know what you mean. From the way I see it:The part of you that does not want to feel better is just another set of thoughts, it's a story, just like many other stories that we have. This is obviously a story about , "the depressed "wallower". Therefore, I suggest that the approach is the same like with all other thoughts: - become aware of the "wallowing"- acknowledge that "wallowing" little monster when it starts jumping up and down, and- let those arms and feet move where you want to go and as Experiential suggested, start very small. I know what you mean about not being bothered to use tools. I am the same, until I hit the crisis, then I regret not using them consistently. It might be helpful to explore your values behind practicing ACT. Is it to reduce the pain or is it to live a more meaningful, vital and enjoyable life? For a long time, ACT was just another strategy to reduce my pain, as much as I didn't want to acknowledge this. I still get caught up in that little trickster and need to be careful. Like yourself, I'm a therapist and now only work with ACT, however aren't things always so much clearer when dealing with other people? :-) ... and isn't it wonderful and liberating to be able to be open and honest about issues many of our colleagues would judge us on?!BestKatja From: lisamgray68 To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Mon, 16 August, 2010 6:17:26 AMSubject: Deep Depression Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? Thank you. ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2010 Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 Hi , As someone who suffers from very deep depression from time to time, I sometimes find that I must simply wait it out. Sit on my hands, as would say. For me, that is usually a matter of hours or days--not weeks or months (although it used to be). So while I'm waiting, I'm kind to myself and give myself permission to feel just as I do and to be just as I am. Eventually, I will feel some kind of stirring to life, and I "pounce" on that to get the ball rolling in my life again. Recently, as I posted here, I somehow felt the motivation to clean the bathroom floor and pounced on that. After that simple act, on my hands and knees scrubbing the floor with tears rolling down my face, my depression lifted and my zest for life returned. If your deep depression is hanging on for more than a couple of days, you may need to turn to additional help from the outside. I'm sure, as a therapist, you know the ropes for that : ) Sometimes the darn monster can 'seem' so intractable and permanent, but the sun does come up again and the monster evaporates. In short, I guess I'm saying that making room for it and trying to live toward your values is about all you can do sometimes. And maybe it's enough. Maybe that's OK. Helena >> Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel.> > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed??> > Thank you.> ...> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2010 Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 Hi I am also a therapist and have experienced deep depression for a lot of my life. Things that have helped me in ACT have been mindfulness. When I am so low that I want to do nothing but lie on the bed I now play a recording of mindfulness exercise on my iPod and find that I usually now get up and do one thing, which leads to another, and so on....... Sometimes i just end up having a peaceful sleep - and maybe that is just what is needed - giving yourself permission to blob and do nothing for a while. I have also found the 'corpus delecti' move very useful - thinking about who would be found not guilty if I was not the 'dead body' (which is what depression feels like to me). I now also use ACT exclusively and advocate mindfulness because from an experiential point of view I know that it has helped me to get into my life more and spend less time depressed. I hope this helps. Mindfully Ingrid Hi ,I know what you mean. From the way I see it:The part of you that does not want to feel better is just another set of thoughts, it's a story, just like many other stories that we have. This is obviously a story about , " the depressed " wallower " . Therefore, I suggest that the approach is the same like with all other thoughts: - become aware of the " wallowing " - acknowledge that " wallowing " little monster when it starts jumping up and down, and - let those arms and feet move where you want to go and as Experiential suggested, start very small. I know what you mean about not being bothered to use tools. I am the same, until I hit the crisis, then I regret not using them consistently. It might be helpful to explore your values behind practicing ACT. Is it to reduce the pain or is it to live a more meaningful, vital and enjoyable life? For a long time, ACT was just another strategy to reduce my pain, as much as I didn't want to acknowledge this. I still get caught up in that little trickster and need to be careful. Like yourself, I'm a therapist and now only work with ACT, however aren't things always so much clearer when dealing with other people? :-) ... and isn't it wonderful and liberating to be able to be open and honest about issues many of our colleagues would judge us on?! BestKatja To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Mon, 16 August, 2010 6:17:26 AM Subject: Deep Depression Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? Thank you.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2010 Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 As usual, your comments resonate with me!!!What does mean by sit on your hands? I think that compassion for yourself and permission to feel just like you do is important but also elusive for me. I go into this " I'm not functioning like a normal human, if I weren't anxious I would be doing this,this, and this.So i try to make myself feel calm and we all know how well that works!!HAHA > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > Thank you. > > ... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2010 Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 What type of mindfulness exercise do you like and where is a good source for them? > > > > > > > Hi , > > > > I know what you mean. > > > > From the way I see it: > > The part of you that does not want to feel better is just another set of > > thoughts, it's a story, just like many other stories that we have. This is > > obviously a story about , " the depressed " wallower " . > > > > Therefore, I suggest that the approach is the same like with all other > > thoughts: > > - become aware of the " wallowing " > > - acknowledge that " wallowing " little monster when it starts jumping up and > > down, and > > - let those arms and feet move where you want to go and as Experiential > > suggested, start very small. > > > > I know what you mean about not being bothered to use tools. I am the same, > > until I hit the crisis, then I regret not using them consistently. It might > > be helpful to explore your values behind practicing ACT. Is it to reduce the > > pain or is it to live a more meaningful, vital and enjoyable life? For a > > long time, ACT was just another strategy to reduce my pain, as much as I > > didn't want to acknowledge this. I still get caught up in that little > > trickster and need to be careful. > > > > Like yourself, I'm a therapist and now only work with ACT, however aren't > > things always so much clearer when dealing with other people? :-) ... and > > isn't it wonderful and liberating to be able to be open and honest about > > issues many of our colleagues would judge us on?! > > > > Best > > Katja > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* lisamgray68 > > > > *To:* ACT_for_the_Public > > *Sent:* Mon, 16 August, 2010 6:17:26 AM > > *Subject:* Deep Depression > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. > > Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a > > teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave > > towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to > > depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I > > fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this > > is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be > > bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel > > better with the very depressed?? > > > > Thank you. > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2010 Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 Thanks to everyone for the replies. It resonates with me that the " no motivation " or " wallowing " is just another language story. This is the first time I've just tried to breathe space into depression and allow it to be without getting so caught up in all my stories (what if I can't get out? what if I forget how to be happy? what if this becomes the new norm? blah blah blah...) It does actually feel better to just be depressed -- and to also say " I'm still going to go work out " or " I'm still going to smile at my kids " -- because those are things I value. I do trust time and know that feelings will always change -- they are good at that!!! And yes, it does feel good to talk about things that most therapists would cast a judgmental eye at another therapist for saying!!! ... > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > Thank you. > > > ... > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2010 Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 Sometimes I wonder, if one is actually depressed, or do they believe the thoughts that say they are depressed... " You are what exists before all stories " > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2010 Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 Could be. Maybe I just believe the thoughts that say I have arthritis in my thumb joints, too. Too bad depression doesn't show up on xrays like arthritis does. Helena Re: Deep Depression Sometimes I wonder, if one is actually depressed, or do they believe the thoughts that say they are depressed..."You are what exists before all stories" > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > ... > > > > > > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2010 Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 I don't " think " so. Depression can manifest as emotional responses or behaviours that can occur " in the moment " before thoughts have even had a chance to form. The parts of us that respond to situations are more than just the thinking parts. We are not just our stories. Kate Sometimes I wonder, if one is actually depressed, or do they believe the thoughts that say they are depressed... " You are what exists before all stories " > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 I hope you know I wasn't attempting to minimize depression at all, simply a question, as I haven't had much experience with it...though maybe I have and I just didn't call it that... More thoughts, no judgments...feel free to critique Sometimes naming gives security, but I do think certain labels add fuel to the fire...naming can give continuity, give it strength, can create a victimization and then fear of it...and words like anxiety and depression are loaded with judgments even before one identifies with them...take the name away and what are you left with...thoughts and feelings...in my experience, striping the name, can create some distance to experience it just as it is...take all judgments surrounding a feeling and what is left? I think ACT teaches that when you identify with something, you take on it's energy because you are identifying with the feeling or thoughts as if it were you... " I am depressed " , " I am anxious " ...but at it's core, what is one really experiencing? I think if one can look at a feeling just as it is, it just withers away Does one " have " depression...do they own depression...is it yours or something you are experiencing that you call depression and then identify with it... > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 I see your point but said to myself "this is someone who probably never had much experience with depression," followed by "here we go again." Saying the words "I'm depressed," and even believing it, which we all do from time to time, is quite different from having clinical depression, as (usually) diagnosed by a doctor. I think your comments refer to the first case but not the latter and, if so, I agree with you. Depression is often diminished and minimized by those who've never experienced it. I'm not saying you did that, but your motive was ambiguous enough to get a reaction out of me. Thanks for clarifying your position! Helena Re: Deep Depression I hope you know I wasn't attempting to minimize depression at all, simply a question, as I haven't had much experience with it...though maybe I have and I just didn't call it that...More thoughts, no judgments...feel free to critiqueSometimes naming gives security, but I do think certain labels add fuel to the fire...naming can give continuity, give it strength, can create a victimization and then fear of it...and words like anxiety and depression are loaded with judgments even before one identifies with them...take the name away and what are you left with...thoughts and feelings...in my experience, striping the name, can create some distance to experience it just as it is...take all judgments surrounding a feeling and what is left? I think ACT teaches that when you identify with something, you take on it's energy because you are identifying with the feeling or thoughts as if it were you..."I am depressed", "I am anxious"...but at it's core, what is one really experiencing? I think if one can look at a feeling just as it is, it just withers awayDoes one "have" depression...do they own depression...is it yours or something you are experiencing that you call depression and then identify with it... > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 Forgot to answer your last question: Does one "have" depression...do they own depression...is it yours or something you are experiencing that you call depression and then identify with it... Substitute the word 'diabetes' or 'cancer' for the word 'depression' and see how it reads. However, whether it's depression, cancer or diabetes, I think we can have it without owning and identifying with it, at least not permanently. But none of those things is "just a feeling," which is how so many wrongly view depression and other emotional/mental disorders. Helena Re: Deep Depression I hope you know I wasn't attempting to minimize depression at all, simply a question, as I haven't had much experience with it...though maybe I have and I just didn't call it that...More thoughts, no judgments...feel free to critiqueSometimes naming gives security, but I do think certain labels add fuel to the fire...naming can give continuity, give it strength, can create a victimization and then fear of it...and words like anxiety and depression are loaded with judgments even before one identifies with them...take the name away and what are you left with...thoughts and feelings...in my experience, striping the name, can create some distance to experience it just as it is...take all judgments surrounding a feeling and what is left? I think ACT teaches that when you identify with something, you take on it's energy because you are identifying with the feeling or thoughts as if it were you..."I am depressed", "I am anxious"...but at it's core, what is one really experiencing? I think if one can look at a feeling just as it is, it just withers awayDoes one "have" depression...do they own depression...is it yours or something you are experiencing that you call depression and then identify with it... > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 I get what you are saying in regards to clinical depression.. Does one get some sort of relief knowing that it is not of their own doing...is it easier to accept? I wonder, because, if a doctor was to tell me that the anxiety I experience is biological, and nothing I can do about...would I let go of trying to control it, get rid of it... Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 Is depression a bioloical physical illness? The answer is now over, no say psychiatrists, it is not. So it is worth the effort to try to recover because you can and it is worth it. Believe you can get better and you will start to undo some of the learned helplessness that is one of depression's main causes. From Dorothy'd Rowe site. The Real Causes of Depression How many times have you heard it said, `Depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain'? If you've been depressed and consulted a doctor it's very likely you've been told this in tones of absolute certainty. If you've been prescribed one of the SSRI antidepressants like Prozac or Sexoxat you were probably told that this drug would replace the serotonin that was missing from your brain. The SSRI drugs certainly do put serotonin in the brain, but there wasn't any missing in the first place. There never has been any evidence that any brain chemical was depleted when a person was depressed. However, psychiatrists kept hoping that one day their hypothesis that depression was caused by a chemical imbalance would be proved to be right. Now, thirty years after the hypothesis was first produced, the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the Institute of Psychiatry have accepted that depression isn't caused by a chemical imbalance. But you'll find this out only if you visit their websites. They haven't issued a press release saying, `We were wrong.' Many people will continue to believe that their depression has a physical cause. The one great advantage to this belief, is that you don't have to feel responsible for your depression. However, there is one great disadvantage. There's no physical cure. Psychiatrists don't talk of curing depression but of managing it in a way similar to the way doctors manage a chronic illness like diabetes or epilepsy. If you see your depression as being the outcome of how you see yourself and your world and how you live your life then you are saying that, while you didn't set out to make yourself depressed, this is the outcome of what you have actually done. We often get results we didn't plan for. Having to take responsibility for yourself can seem like a tremendous disadvantage, but there is a great advantage. If you don't understand how you created your depression, then by learning more about yourself you can uncreate it. In the same way many people diagnosed schizophrenic have recovered by coming to understand themselves. http://www.dorothyrowe.com.au/index.php?u=The_Real_Causes_of_Depression_(February_2007).htm2 Kaivey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 What if we just let go of the " reasons " why we are depressed and look at what value is being neglected and move to that behavior that supports the value because spending time with " reasons " often becomes a barrier and contributes to increase stuckness. Is it useful and necessary for us to be sure of the reason for why we are depressed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 I see no value in those kinds of questions or that line of reasoning concerning the causes or origins of depression. Who cares if its origin is biological or environmental, or both (and no one really knows for sure, although some have strong opinions). What difference would that make? If you get cancer, do you blame a gene that made you susceptible, do you blame unhealthy habits, or do you blame both? It makes no difference. What you focus on is "OK -- what can I do now to continue living a valued life for as long as possible." Then you do that. Helena Re: Deep Depression I get what you are saying in regards to clinical depression..Does one get some sort of relief knowing that it is not of their own doing...is it easier to accept?I wonder, because, if a doctor was to tell me that the anxiety I experience is biological, and nothing I can do about...would I let go of trying to control it, get rid of it...Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 That thinking is too simplistic, IMO. And it is not generally accepted by all or most doctors. The answer may be over, as you say, but the question is not. "Believe you can get better and you will ..." sounds an awful lot like CBT. Not an ACT approach, as far as I know. I guess we all choose to selectively believe what supports our already deeply entrenched belief systems. Helena Re: Deep Depression Is depression a bioloical physical illness? The answer is now over, no say psychiatrists, it is not. So it is worth the effort to try to recover because you can and it is worth it. Believe you can get better and you will start to undo some of the learned helplessness that is one of depression's main causes. From Dorothy'd Rowe site. The Real Causes of Depression How many times have you heard it said, `Depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain'? If you've been depressed and consulted a doctor it's very likely you've been told this in tones of absolute certainty. If you've been prescribed one of the SSRI antidepressants like Prozac or Sexoxat you were probably told that this drug would replace the serotonin that was missing from your brain. The SSRI drugs certainly do put serotonin in the brain, but there wasn't any missing in the first place. There never has been any evidence that any brain chemical was depleted when a person was depressed. However, psychiatrists kept hoping that one day their hypothesis that depression was caused by a chemical imbalance would be proved to be right. Now, thirty years after the hypothesis was first produced, the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the Institute of Psychiatry have accepted that depression isn't caused by a chemical imbalance. But you'll find this out only if you visit their websites. They haven't issued a press release saying, `We were wrong.' Many people will continue to believe that their depression has a physical cause. The one great advantage to this belief, is that you don't have to feel responsible for your depression. However, there is one great disadvantage. There's no physical cure. Psychiatrists don't talk of curing depression but of managing it in a way similar to the way doctors manage a chronic illness like diabetes or epilepsy. If you see your depression as being the outcome of how you see yourself and your world and how you live your life then you are saying that, while you didn't set out to make yourself depressed, this is the outcome of what you have actually done. We often get results we didn't plan for. Having to take responsibility for yourself can seem like a tremendous disadvantage, but there is a great advantage. If you don't understand how you created your depression, then by learning more about yourself you can uncreate it. In the same way many people diagnosed schizophrenic have recovered by coming to understand themselves. http://www.dorothyrowe.com.au/index.php?u=The_Real_Causes_of_Depression_(February_2007).htm2 Kaivey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 For me, I think it would make a difference in regards to anxiety...I think it would be easier for me to accept if I knew that it wasn't in part to my own doing...let go of the fight...one major obstacle with anxiety is thinking that it means something is wrong with you, " why can't I control this " ...if I knew it was a chemical imbalance, like another organs imbalance, I would just pop a xanax here and there and say fcuk it... Though in another sense it might feel completely helpless...and I might find myself using that as an excuse not to act Interesting nonetheless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 Because some people might feel overwhelmed if they believe that there is something wrong with their brain and this might make them feel that there is no hope. If this doesn't bother you, then you are lucky because you are not stuck in learned helpleness, and maybe you believe you can get better anyway. But most people with depression tend to feel doomed. Now, that's another interesting topic, epigenics, and how the envireroment, which includes our beliefs, can change gene expression and alter how we feel. And so we are not fixed (stuck with how we are) even by our genes. Kaivey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 hi Kaivey Interesting...., hmmm that depression is not an unwanted condition to be cured? to be rid of? to be ostracized. rather depression is kinda like some other illness like cancer or ms or whatever, but can be relatable and at best treatable and managed, so that we can still continue to lead a vital and productive life? I mean, i dunno, but maybe some of the professionals on this list could jump in, and so what if? depression can not be cured? How would change my point of view on things? Well for me, then that simply means i don't have to keep searching for the answer to my depressive moments, i can give up the search for the answer, or the struggle to figure it all out, why? Perhaps, then i can accept my depression as simply the result or outcome of my biological, cognitive, social upbringing, that i have arrived here from where i was, and that since there is no cure, i don't have to keep looking for something that doesn't exist, a cure for something unwanted and uncomfortable, time a wasted looking for something when there is nothing to be found. Instead, i can simply look for ways to manage it? Hmmmm. Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use > the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I > remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to > the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it > comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the > biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel > better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the > tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. > Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very > depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 If you read the Mindfulness and Acceptance Workbook for Depression by Kirk D. Strosahl, a pioneer of ACT, also believes this to be a vitally important topic too and spends much time explaining the very things I am always saying on this site here. This is why I got so attracted to ACT in te first place because it is so empowering. I love reading about how I can change. In the link below go to page 18 to read what Kirk says' about depression. It is exaclty what I said on this site all along. Interestingly, he even mentions that depresssion is on the rise despite the introduction of modern antidepressants and he concludes that these drugs are not all that effective. He goes on to mention how psychiatry and the drug companies have worked together to con everyone into believing they have a physical illness and so need these drugs. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5U9dR1dDs_MC & printsec=frontcover & dq=The+Mindfulness+%26+Acceptance+Workbook+for+Depression:+Using+Acceptance+%26+Commitment+Therapy+to+Move+Through+Depression+%26+Create+a+Life+Worth+Living & source=bl & ots=fWluoBQc0j & sig=t1lrJoIVFKEMLRjuK4rVpK8-LEw & hl=en & ei=zuxqTJ3oJpSSjAfi9uBx & sa=X & oi=book_result & ct=result & resnum=2 & ved=0CBkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage & q & f=false Kaivey > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use> the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I> remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to> the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it> comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the> biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel> better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the> tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time.> Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very> depressed??> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Thank you.> > > > > > > > ...> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 I'm touched by your post VC, and I have been there myself. Wouldn't it be a relief to give up the fight and let things be. But there was much beauty in my childhood, the weather, the sun, pots of tea and cakes with my Nan, the seaside, and I had lovely girlfriends as well, etc. ACT is about acceptance so maybe there is a middle way. A way to accept but without the deep despair that nothing will ever change. Hey, 'nothing will ever change' is just thought! Hmmm! Kaivey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 I don't have a clue what caused my depression and never gave much thought to it. I don't blame it on a lack of serotonin in my brain, on a chemical imbalance, on my neglected and abusive childhood, on inheriting my parents' "depression genes", on an inadequate amount of exercise, wrong diet, etc. I was always solution-oriented and hopeful. If a doctor were to tell me it was biologically caused and there was nothing I could do about it, I would say, "We'll see about that." I suppose there might be people who just give in to it because they think or were told it is a biological malfunction. I never knew anyone like that, though. I think its causes are complicated and too complex for me to figure out in this lifetime, and I don't need to. Helena Re: Deep Depression For me, I think it would make a difference in regards to anxiety...I think it would be easier for me to accept if I knew that it wasn't in part to my own doing...let go of the fight...one major obstacle with anxiety is thinking that it means something is wrong with you, "why can't I control this"...if I knew it was a chemical imbalance, like another organs imbalance, I would just pop a xanax here and there and say fcuk it...Though in another sense it might feel completely helpless...and I might find myself using that as an excuse not to actInteresting nonetheless > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about "wallowing" when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 Giving up and letting go are so foreign to our culture because it implies giving in, failure...but it is exactly what is needed Drop the rope as ACT would say The problem is, as hard as you want to let go, you can't, because you believe that anxiety/fear is a threat to your existence, so in that, it is completely natural to fear it...but that's due to the belief At the end of the day, what is one afraid of happening if they let go of trying to control it...something like " I'll be consumed with anxiety, feel out of control, maybe panic, and nobody will be there to help me " ....funny thing is, we have all experienced this many times, and were all still here...it AIN'T true Sometimes I think Fear ultimately teaches one to let go of the illusion of control...you eventually realize just how little control you have, and trying to control is utterly useless and hopeless, and just allows you to be controlled by your thoughts.. LET IT BE!!! We are all in this boat together Best > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone -- I am a therapist and learning how to use the ACT principles. Right now I'm in a depression deeper than any I remember since I was a teenager. I'm trying hard to just give space to the feelings and behave towards my values no matter how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question is: what do you do about " wallowing " when it comes to depression? In other words, I understand all the tools - the biggest thing I fight is the part of me that doesn't WANT to feel better! I'm sure that this is common with depression...I believe the tools will work, I just can't be bothered to use them half the time. Where do you find the motivation to feel better with the very depressed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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