Guest guest Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Wow, so much interesting stuff to digest there. Thanks for sharing, Randy. Hope you got some sleep in the end! bb > > Warning: very long post, rambling and self-absorbed. Written > at 3 a.m. when I'm awake and wish wistfully that I could be > asleep. Please forgive any sleepy typos. > > I have been glancing at the posts on this list off and on > over the last couple of few weeks and thinking how much of myself > I see in them. And for a slightly longer time, perhaps a few > months now, I've been having some thoughts about thoughts - > specifically, about the perniciousness (as well as the > harmlessness) of certain kinds of thoughts that crop up in > my head every minute of the day, and that I see on this list > a lot too. Here are my observations, in no particular order. > > 1) As Steve wrote on this list a few months ago, " There > is no way to turn life into a rule. This is not about being > a good boy and getting a gold star. " > > Different folks might interpret " no gold stars " in different > ways. For me there are at least two implications. > > First, I have only noticed in the past few months how much > time I have spent during my life lost in imagined conversations > or scenes, in which one or another person approves of what I do > (meaning I get a gold star) or disapproves of what I do (meaning > I don't get a gold star). And so I have begun to wonder how much > I have distorting my hands-and-feet behavior in relation to my > thoughts of whether or not I might get or not get a gold star. > Lastly, I have also found, from talking to other people, that > I am far from alone in this. > > Second, I notice a lot of talk on this board (and even more > talk in this head) in which " figuring out who I am " or > " figuring out how the universe works " is seemingly very > important. Now, I am not advocating giving up on trying > to solve problems like unhealthy behaviors (e.g. overeating > or drinking), painful medical conditions, difficult workplace > or home relationships, etc. Far from it. These things are > important. They are part of our path. They link to what > we care about. > > But I find that I have spent a good chunk of my life searching > for " answers " to many questions that I am now coming to suspect > are inherently unanswerable. Why? Because life for humans is > not really a problem the way figuring out a valid XML schema > for a certain kind of structured Web document is a problem, > just to give an example. Most of what befalls us in life can > only be provisionally and temporarily " solved " ; beyond that, > it must be lived and will be lived, whether we want to live it > or not. > > Over the years I bought tons of how-to and self-help books, > hoping to find " answers " from " experts. " Such books may indeed > have answers if they are on subjects like XML; but if they are > on more ambiguous topics, such as finding a satisfying career > or mending a relationship, they don't actually have " answers " > at all – at least, not absolute answers of the kind I once > yearned for. They only have ideas and guidelines, which we > must sort through and decide about ourselves. There really > are no rules for something like deciding whether my slightly > numb and tingling feet, related to very minor spinal stenosis, > is a terrible problem that requires lots and lots of my time > talking to doctors and getting tests and worrying and treating > the pain as something that ought to go away, or just something > that deserves a moderate amount of respectful self-care of > the body and an accepting and even inquiring attitude. > > Every case is different and every case is the same. > > And even what I have just postulated about how I might behave > in respect to my slightly numb feet, to the extent that it might > be called a " rule, " is only a provisional or temporary rule; and > it is only useful to the extent that I find it useful and > instantiate it in countless small actions, day after day. The > universe does not hand out gold stars for the successful discovery > of " rules " that somehow will let us " solve " life. Life, it seems, > will always be painful, beautiful, terrible, perfect, heart- > breaking, smiling, perplexing, and whatever other words you want > to say about it in those moments when we talk. And we will die, > something which is not separate from living either. > > 2) I notice a lot of talk on this board (and even more in my > head, for years and years now) in which certain kinds of thoughts > about a curious sort of object we describe as " I " are taken to > be true. This talk is very sneaky, because it asserts that it is > sober and rational, that it comes from " us, " and that it looking > out for our own best interest. It am talking about thoughts (whether > internally voiced or written out in a post) about stuff like " this > is how terrible things are for me when I'm feeling bad " and " things > they have always been like this for me " and " this is who I am and > this is how terrible my problem is. " What is interesting is that > such thoughts identify this " self " that is being described in such > a way that we become our own enemy. > > I know such thoughts very well. I have had my own forms of them > since childhood. I don't mean to put anyone down for expressing > them on this list. I know how grindingly, hopelessly, endlessly > painful they can feel, how every day can seem a hell. Very likely > I will feel that way again some day soon, for some period of time. > And yes, I have had the experience of trying to explain to someone > who cares for me that they " can't possibly know how bad I really > feel. " That stance in itself is an illusion - the mind temporarily > unable to imagine how painful life can be for almost everyone, > temporarily unable to see the obvious pain sometimes in the faces > of those whom we love and the frequent distress in some of the faces > of strangers we pass on the street. Not just see the pain, but > see with the gut and the heart how much that pain is so much > like our pain that we could be twins. > > But never mind. My main point is that while these thoughts about > " who we are as someone who is depressed, anxious, etc. " are a > hard, hard habit to break, they are just a habit, neither " true " > nor still less " false. " They are always about the past even when > they pretend to speak about the future. They are about an imaginary > being even when they pretend to speak about an actual being called > " I. " > > At the same time, I am not saying we should avoid thinking such > thoughts. First of all, as far as I know we can't, or at least > I can't. Second of all, sometimes it is very useful to " know " > things about an imaginary thing called " I " that consists of so > much history. For example, if I know I have done a lot of computer > coding in the past, and that I can probably pick up this business > about writing an XML schema pretty quickly, then that may help me > in my job right now. So that's useful. And if I'm feeling blue, it's > good to know that I am feeling blue. It's even better to open up > to that, because in opening up, other things may be discovered. > Opening up is a habit, too, and can be cultivated if we remember. > Sometimes I remember, sometimes I forget. (Notice how the mind > is not satisfied with this.) > > 3) Another way such thoughts about how bad we are feeling get in > the way – and I still catch myself doing it, and it is very > interesting – is that we often pretend that such thoughts are > problems and get very wrapped up in trying to solve them. Let me > give an example. Often I have angry thoughts while driving about > another driver's behavior, or at work about something my boss does; > and so on. I experience the anger, and then I get all worried that > having the anger is a problem too. I have spent a lot of head time > worrying and trying to figure out what being angry in such an > " shameful " and " unacceptable " way " means about me, " and so on. > > A more useful strategy seems to be aware of an angry thought > and angry body sensations and even a moment of total, absolute > fusion, and even a moment of shame about it all – and then get a > little separation from the experience and let it be. Not try to > solve it. It's just there (or it was there – this moment now is > something new). Having been angry or ashamed doesn't have to > determine what I do next. It is okay to have such experiences. > They are not me. > > All of this may seem to be just words I am typing, cheap and > easy produce but without much value. Please know that what I > am talking about is more like a learned behavior, a doing that > requires practice, and much less like a description of " what is > true about thoughts about anger. " > > And ask yourself, if you find yourself skeptical: who is it > that is skeptical? > > And now back to catch any stray Zs that may be lingering. Be well. > > -Randy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Hi Randy, Sounds to me what you are describing perfectly describes the path of yoga. Have you ever seen that famous picture of Krishna and the Chariot with horses on the battlefield? From the Bhagavad Gita; 'This body Arjuna is called the field. He who who knows this is called the knower of the field. Know that I am the knower in all the field of my creation; and that the wisdom which sees the field and the knower of the field is true wisdom....' Chapter 13 v 1-2 And get this...... 'Imagine a chess board stretching out to infinity in all directions. On this stage different pieces start to enter. Some are black and some are white, just as a game of chess......' Sound familiar? Isn't it great. Sometimes I have a glimpse of the spaciousness beyond the mind. For a few minutes or sometimes hours a joy floods my being for no reason at all - no reason other than I have momentarily got out of my mind and into my life! And I can see clearly the little drama's playing out in my small and frightened mind. Simone To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Fri, 20 August, 2010 9:52:11Subject: No gold stars Warning: very long post, rambling and self-absorbed. Written at 3 a.m. when I'm awake and wish wistfully that I could be asleep. Please forgive any sleepy typos. I have been glancing at the posts on this list off and on over the last couple of few weeks and thinking how much of myself I see in them. And for a slightly longer time, perhaps a few months now, I've been having some thoughts about thoughts - specifically, about the perniciousness (as well as the harmlessness) of certain kinds of thoughts that crop up inmy head every minute of the day, and that I see on this list a lot too. Here are my observations, in no particular order. 1) As Steve wrote on this list a few months ago, "There is no way to turn life into a rule. This is not about being a good boy and getting a gold star." Different folks might interpret "no gold stars" in different ways. For me there are at least two implications. First, I have only noticed in the past few months how much time I have spent during my life lost in imagined conversations or scenes, in which one or another person approves of what I do(meaning I get a gold star) or disapproves of what I do (meaning I don't get a gold star). And so I have begun to wonder how much I have distorting my hands-and-feet behavior in relation to mythoughts of whether or not I might get or not get a gold star. Lastly, I have also found, from talking to other people, that I am far from alone in this. Second, I notice a lot of talk on this board (and even more talk in this head) in which "figuring out who I am" or "figuring out how the universe works" is seemingly very important. Now, I am not advocating giving up on trying to solve problems like unhealthy behaviors (e.g. overeating or drinking), painful medical conditions, difficult workplace or home relationships, etc. Far from it. These things are important. They are part of our path. They link to whatwe care about.But I find that I have spent a good chunk of my life searching for "answers" to many questions that I am now coming to suspect are inherently unanswerable. Why? Because life for humans is not really a problem the way figuring out a valid XML schema for a certain kind of structured Web document is a problem, just to give an example. Most of what befalls us in life can only be provisionally and temporarily "solved"; beyond that, it must be lived and will be lived, whether we want to live it or not. Over the years I bought tons of how-to and self-help books, hoping to find "answers" from "experts." Such books may indeed have answers if they are on subjects like XML; but if they are on more ambiguous topics, such as finding a satisfying career or mending a relationship, they don't actually have "answers" at all – at least, not absolute answers of the kind I once yearned for. They only have ideas and guidelines, which we must sort through and decide about ourselves. There really are no rules for something like deciding whether my slightly numb and tingling feet, related to very minor spinal stenosis, is a terrible problem that requires lots and lots of my time talking to doctors and getting tests and worrying and treating the pain as something that ought to go away, or just something that deserves a moderate amount of respectful self-care of the body and an accepting and even inquiring attitude. Every case is different and every case is the same. And even what I have just postulated about how I might behave in respect to my slightly numb feet, to the extent that it might be called a "rule," is only a provisional or temporary rule; and it is only useful to the extent that I find it useful and instantiate it in countless small actions, day after day. The universe does not hand out gold stars for the successful discovery of "rules" that somehow will let us "solve" life. Life, it seems, will always be painful, beautiful, terrible, perfect, heart-breaking, smiling, perplexing, and whatever other words you want to say about it in those moments when we talk. And we will die, something which is not separate from living either. 2) I notice a lot of talk on this board (and even more in my head, for years and years now) in which certain kinds of thoughtsabout a curious sort of object we describe as "I" are taken to be true. This talk is very sneaky, because it asserts that it issober and rational, that it comes from "us," and that it looking out for our own best interest. It am talking about thoughts (whether internally voiced or written out in a post) about stuff like "this is how terrible things are for me when I'm feeling bad" and "things they have always been like this for me" and "this is who I am andthis is how terrible my problem is." What is interesting is that such thoughts identify this "self" that is being described in such a way that we become our own enemy. I know such thoughts very well. I have had my own forms of them since childhood. I don't mean to put anyone down for expressing them on this list. I know how grindingly, hopelessly, endlessly painful they can feel, how every day can seem a hell. Very likely I will feel that way again some day soon, for some period of time. And yes, I have had the experience of trying to explain to someone who cares for me that they "can't possibly know how bad I really feel." That stance in itself is an illusion - the mind temporarily unable to imagine how painful life can be for almost everyone, temporarily unable to see the obvious pain sometimes in the faces of those whom we love and the frequent distress in some of the faces of strangers we pass on the street. Not just see the pain, butsee with the gut and the heart how much that pain is so much like our pain that we could be twins. But never mind. My main point is that while these thoughts about "who we are as someone who is depressed, anxious, etc." are a hard, hard habit to break, they are just a habit, neither "true" nor still less "false." They are always about the past even when they pretend to speak about the future. They are about an imaginary being even when they pretend to speak about an actual being called "I." At the same time, I am not saying we should avoid thinking such thoughts. First of all, as far as I know we can't, or at least I can't. Second of all, sometimes it is very useful to "know" things about an imaginary thing called "I" that consists of so much history. For example, if I know I have done a lot of computer coding in the past, and that I can probably pick up this business about writing an XML schema pretty quickly, then that may help me in my job right now. So that's useful. And if I'm feeling blue, it's good to know that I am feeling blue. It's even better to open up to that, because in opening up, other things may be discovered. Opening up is a habit, too, and can be cultivated if we remember. Sometimes I remember, sometimes I forget. (Notice how the mindis not satisfied with this.)3) Another way such thoughts about how bad we are feeling get in the way – and I still catch myself doing it, and it is veryinteresting – is that we often pretend that such thoughts are problems and get very wrapped up in trying to solve them. Let me give an example. Often I have angry thoughts while driving about another driver's behavior, or at work about something my boss does; and so on. I experience the anger, and then I get all worried that having the anger is a problem too. I have spent a lot of head time worrying and trying to figure out what being angry in such an "shameful" and "unacceptable" way "means about me," and so on. A more useful strategy seems to be aware of an angry thought and angry body sensations and even a moment of total, absolute fusion, and even a moment of shame about it all – and then get a little separation from the experience and let it be. Not try to solve it. It's just there (or it was there – this moment now is something new). Having been angry or ashamed doesn't have to determine what I do next. It is okay to have such experiences. They are not me. All of this may seem to be just words I am typing, cheap and easy produce but without much value. Please know that what I am talking about is more like a learned behavior, a doing that requires practice, and much less like a description of "what is true about thoughts about anger." And ask yourself, if you find yourself skeptical: who is itthat is skeptical?And now back to catch any stray Zs that may be lingering. Be well.-Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Beautiful quotes, Simone. It's interesting - we are not the head and nor are we the body, yet somehow, getting present with the body as it is (without the head's chatter getting in the way) seems to give us a greater expanse - " the field of all creation. " -Randy > > Hi Randy, > > Sounds to me what you are describing perfectly describes the path of yoga. Have > you ever seen that famous picture of Krishna and the Chariot with horses on the > battlefield? From the Bhagavad Gita; > > 'This body Arjuna is called the field. He who who knows this is called the > knower of the field. > Know that I am the knower in all the field of my creation; and that the wisdom > which sees the field and the knower of the field is true wisdom....' Chapter 13 > v 1-2 > > And get this...... > > 'Imagine a chess board stretching out to infinity in all directions. On this > stage different pieces start to enter. Some are black and some are white, just > as a game of chess......' > > Sound familiar? > > Isn't it great. Sometimes I have a glimpse of the spaciousness beyond the mind. > For a few minutes or sometimes hours a joy floods my being for no reason at all > - no reason other than I have momentarily got out of my mind and into my life! > And I can see clearly the little drama's playing out in my small and frightened > mind. > > > Simone > > >  > > > > ________________________________ > > To: ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Fri, 20 August, 2010 9:52:11 > Subject: No gold stars > >  > Warning: very long post, rambling and self-absorbed. Written > at 3 a.m. when I'm awake and wish wistfully that I could be > asleep. Please forgive any sleepy typos. > > I have been glancing at the posts on this list off and on > over the last couple of few weeks and thinking how much of myself > I see in them. And for a slightly longer time, perhaps a few > months now, I've been having some thoughts about thoughts - > specifically, about the perniciousness (as well as the > harmlessness) of certain kinds of thoughts that crop up in > my head every minute of the day, and that I see on this list > a lot too. Here are my observations, in no particular order. > > 1) As Steve wrote on this list a few months ago, " There > is no way to turn life into a rule. This is not about being > a good boy and getting a gold star. " > > Different folks might interpret " no gold stars " in different > ways. For me there are at least two implications. > > First, I have only noticed in the past few months how much > time I have spent during my life lost in imagined conversations > or scenes, in which one or another person approves of what I do > (meaning I get a gold star) or disapproves of what I do (meaning > I don't get a gold star). And so I have begun to wonder how much > I have distorting my hands-and-feet behavior in relation to my > thoughts of whether or not I might get or not get a gold star. > Lastly, I have also found, from talking to other people, that > I am far from alone in this. > > Second, I notice a lot of talk on this board (and even more > talk in this head) in which " figuring out who I am " or > " figuring out how the universe works " is seemingly very > important. Now, I am not advocating giving up on trying > to solve problems like unhealthy behaviors (e.g. overeating > or drinking), painful medical conditions, difficult workplace > or home relationships, etc. Far from it. These things are > important. They are part of our path. They link to what > we care about. > > But I find that I have spent a good chunk of my life searching > for " answers " to many questions that I am now coming to suspect > are inherently unanswerable. Why? Because life for humans is > not really a problem the way figuring out a valid XML schema > for a certain kind of structured Web document is a problem, > just to give an example. Most of what befalls us in life can > only be provisionally and temporarily " solved " ; beyond that, > it must be lived and will be lived, whether we want to live it > or not. > > Over the years I bought tons of how-to and self-help books, > hoping to find " answers " from " experts. " Such books may indeed > have answers if they are on subjects like XML; but if they are > on more ambiguous topics, such as finding a satisfying career > or mending a relationship, they don't actually have " answers " > at all †" at least, not absolute answers of the kind I once > yearned for. They only have ideas and guidelines, which we > must sort through and decide about ourselves. There really > are no rules for something like deciding whether my slightly > numb and tingling feet, related to very minor spinal stenosis, > is a terrible problem that requires lots and lots of my time > talking to doctors and getting tests and worrying and treating > the pain as something that ought to go away, or just something > that deserves a moderate amount of respectful self-care of > the body and an accepting and even inquiring attitude. > > Every case is different and every case is the same. > > And even what I have just postulated about how I might behave > in respect to my slightly numb feet, to the extent that it might > be called a " rule, " is only a provisional or temporary rule; and > it is only useful to the extent that I find it useful and > instantiate it in countless small actions, day after day. The > universe does not hand out gold stars for the successful discovery > of " rules " that somehow will let us " solve " life. Life, it seems, > will always be painful, beautiful, terrible, perfect, heart- > breaking, smiling, perplexing, and whatever other words you want > to say about it in those moments when we talk. And we will die, > something which is not separate from living either. > > 2) I notice a lot of talk on this board (and even more in my > head, for years and years now) in which certain kinds of thoughts > about a curious sort of object we describe as " I " are taken to > be true. This talk is very sneaky, because it asserts that it is > sober and rational, that it comes from " us, " and that it looking > out for our own best interest. It am talking about thoughts (whether > internally voiced or written out in a post) about stuff like " this > is how terrible things are for me when I'm feeling bad " and " things > they have always been like this for me " and " this is who I am and > this is how terrible my problem is. " What is interesting is that > such thoughts identify this " self " that is being described in such > a way that we become our own enemy. > > I know such thoughts very well. I have had my own forms of them > since childhood. I don't mean to put anyone down for expressing > them on this list. I know how grindingly, hopelessly, endlessly > painful they can feel, how every day can seem a hell. Very likely > I will feel that way again some day soon, for some period of time. > And yes, I have had the experience of trying to explain to someone > who cares for me that they " can't possibly know how bad I really > feel. " That stance in itself is an illusion - the mind temporarily > unable to imagine how painful life can be for almost everyone, > temporarily unable to see the obvious pain sometimes in the faces > of those whom we love and the frequent distress in some of the faces > of strangers we pass on the street. Not just see the pain, but > see with the gut and the heart how much that pain is so much > like our pain that we could be twins. > > But never mind. My main point is that while these thoughts about > " who we are as someone who is depressed, anxious, etc. " are a > hard, hard habit to break, they are just a habit, neither " true " > nor still less " false. " They are always about the past even when > they pretend to speak about the future. They are about an imaginary > being even when they pretend to speak about an actual being called > " I. " > > At the same time, I am not saying we should avoid thinking such > thoughts. First of all, as far as I know we can't, or at least > I can't. Second of all, sometimes it is very useful to " know " > things about an imaginary thing called " I " that consists of so > much history. For example, if I know I have done a lot of computer > coding in the past, and that I can probably pick up this business > about writing an XML schema pretty quickly, then that may help me > in my job right now. So that's useful. And if I'm feeling blue, it's > good to know that I am feeling blue. It's even better to open up > to that, because in opening up, other things may be discovered. > Opening up is a habit, too, and can be cultivated if we remember. > Sometimes I remember, sometimes I forget. (Notice how the mind > is not satisfied with this.) > > 3) Another way such thoughts about how bad we are feeling get in > the way †" and I still catch myself doing it, and it is very > interesting †" is that we often pretend that such thoughts are > problems and get very wrapped up in trying to solve them. Let me > give an example. Often I have angry thoughts while driving about > another driver's behavior, or at work about something my boss does; > and so on. I experience the anger, and then I get all worried that > having the anger is a problem too. I have spent a lot of head time > worrying and trying to figure out what being angry in such an > " shameful " and " unacceptable " way " means about me, " and so on. > > A more useful strategy seems to be aware of an angry thought > and angry body sensations and even a moment of total, absolute > fusion, and even a moment of shame about it all †" and then get a > little separation from the experience and let it be. Not try to > solve it. It's just there (or it was there †" this moment now is > something new). Having been angry or ashamed doesn't have to > determine what I do next. It is okay to have such experiences. > They are not me. > > All of this may seem to be just words I am typing, cheap and > easy produce but without much value. Please know that what I > am talking about is more like a learned behavior, a doing that > requires practice, and much less like a description of " what is > true about thoughts about anger. " > > And ask yourself, if you find yourself skeptical: who is it > that is skeptical? > > And now back to catch any stray Zs that may be lingering. Be well. > > -Randy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Not a Gold Star, but perhaps an Elephant Stamp for a little MP3 I downloaded and used last week.If it wasn't yours then ... Oh heck, have the Elephant Stamp anyway.Regards,Detlef> >> > Hi Randy,> > > > Sounds to me what you are describing perfectly describes the path of yoga. Have > > you ever seen that famous picture of Krishna and the Chariot with horses on the > > battlefield? From the Bhagavad Gita;> > > > 'This body Arjuna is called the field. He who who knows this is called the > > knower of the field.> > Know that I am the knower in all the field of my creation; and that the wisdom > > which sees the field and the knower of the field is true wisdom....' Chapter 13 > > v 1-2> > > > And get this......> > > > 'Imagine a chess board stretching out to infinity in all directions. On this > > stage different pieces start to enter. Some are black and some are white, just > > as a game of chess......'> > > > Sound familiar?> > > > Isn't it great. Sometimes I have a glimpse of the spaciousness beyond the mind. > > For a few minutes or sometimes hours a joy floods my being for no reason at all > > - no reason other than I have momentarily got out of my mind and into my life! > > And I can see clearly the little drama's playing out in my small and frightened > > mind. > > > > > > Simone> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________> > From: Randy public@> > To: ACT_for_the_Public > > Sent: Fri, 20 August, 2010 9:52:11> > Subject: No gold stars> > > > > > Warning: very long post, rambling and self-absorbed. Written > > at 3 a.m. when I'm awake and wish wistfully that I could be > > asleep. Please forgive any sleepy typos. > > > > I have been glancing at the posts on this list off and on > > over the last couple of few weeks and thinking how much of myself > > I see in them. And for a slightly longer time, perhaps a few > > months now, I've been having some thoughts about thoughts - > > specifically, about the perniciousness (as well as the > > harmlessness) of certain kinds of thoughts that crop up in> > my head every minute of the day, and that I see on this list > > a lot too. Here are my observations, in no particular order. > > > > 1) As Steve wrote on this list a few months ago, "There > > is no way to turn life into a rule. This is not about being > > a good boy and getting a gold star." > > > > Different folks might interpret "no gold stars" in different > > ways. For me there are at least two implications. > > > > First, I have only noticed in the past few months how much > > time I have spent during my life lost in imagined conversations > > or scenes, in which one or another person approves of what I do> > (meaning I get a gold star) or disapproves of what I do (meaning > > I don't get a gold star). And so I have begun to wonder how much > > I have distorting my hands-and-feet behavior in relation to my> > thoughts of whether or not I might get or not get a gold star. > > Lastly, I have also found, from talking to other people, that > > I am far from alone in this. > > > > Second, I notice a lot of talk on this board (and even more > > talk in this head) in which "figuring out who I am" or > > "figuring out how the universe works" is seemingly very > > important. Now, I am not advocating giving up on trying > > to solve problems like unhealthy behaviors (e.g. overeating > > or drinking), painful medical conditions, difficult workplace > > or home relationships, etc. Far from it. These things are > > important. They are part of our path. They link to what> > we care about.> > > > But I find that I have spent a good chunk of my life searching > > for "answers" to many questions that I am now coming to suspect > > are inherently unanswerable. Why? Because life for humans is > > not really a problem the way figuring out a valid XML schema > > for a certain kind of structured Web document is a problem, > > just to give an example. Most of what befalls us in life can > > only be provisionally and temporarily "solved"; beyond that, > > it must be lived and will be lived, whether we want to live it > > or not. > > > > Over the years I bought tons of how-to and self-help books, > > hoping to find "answers" from "experts." Such books may indeed > > have answers if they are on subjects like XML; but if they are > > on more ambiguous topics, such as finding a satisfying career > > or mending a relationship, they don't actually have "answers" > > at all �" at least, not absolute answers of the kind I once > > yearned for. They only have ideas and guidelines, which we > > must sort through and decide about ourselves. There really > > are no rules for something like deciding whether my slightly > > numb and tingling feet, related to very minor spinal stenosis, > > is a terrible problem that requires lots and lots of my time > > talking to doctors and getting tests and worrying and treating > > the pain as something that ought to go away, or just something > > that deserves a moderate amount of respectful self-care of > > the body and an accepting and even inquiring attitude. > > > > Every case is different and every case is the same. > > > > And even what I have just postulated about how I might behave > > in respect to my slightly numb feet, to the extent that it might > > be called a "rule," is only a provisional or temporary rule; and > > it is only useful to the extent that I find it useful and > > instantiate it in countless small actions, day after day. The > > universe does not hand out gold stars for the successful discovery > > of "rules" that somehow will let us "solve" life. Life, it seems, > > will always be painful, beautiful, terrible, perfect, heart-> > breaking, smiling, perplexing, and whatever other words you want > > to say about it in those moments when we talk. And we will die, > > something which is not separate from living either. > > > > 2) I notice a lot of talk on this board (and even more in my > > head, for years and years now) in which certain kinds of thoughts> > about a curious sort of object we describe as "I" are taken to > > be true. This talk is very sneaky, because it asserts that it is> > sober and rational, that it comes from "us," and that it looking > > out for our own best interest. It am talking about thoughts (whether > > internally voiced or written out in a post) about stuff like "this > > is how terrible things are for me when I'm feeling bad" and "things > > they have always been like this for me" and "this is who I am and> > this is how terrible my problem is." What is interesting is that > > such thoughts identify this "self" that is being described in such > > a way that we become our own enemy. > > > > I know such thoughts very well. I have had my own forms of them > > since childhood. I don't mean to put anyone down for expressing > > them on this list. I know how grindingly, hopelessly, endlessly > > painful they can feel, how every day can seem a hell. Very likely > > I will feel that way again some day soon, for some period of time. > > And yes, I have had the experience of trying to explain to someone > > who cares for me that they "can't possibly know how bad I really > > feel." That stance in itself is an illusion - the mind temporarily > > unable to imagine how painful life can be for almost everyone, > > temporarily unable to see the obvious pain sometimes in the faces > > of those whom we love and the frequent distress in some of the faces > > of strangers we pass on the street. Not just see the pain, but> > see with the gut and the heart how much that pain is so much > > like our pain that we could be twins. > > > > But never mind. My main point is that while these thoughts about > > "who we are as someone who is depressed, anxious, etc." are a > > hard, hard habit to break, they are just a habit, neither "true" > > nor still less "false." They are always about the past even when > > they pretend to speak about the future. They are about an imaginary > > being even when they pretend to speak about an actual being called > > "I." > > > > At the same time, I am not saying we should avoid thinking such > > thoughts. First of all, as far as I know we can't, or at least > > I can't. Second of all, sometimes it is very useful to "know" > > things about an imaginary thing called "I" that consists of so > > much history. For example, if I know I have done a lot of computer > > coding in the past, and that I can probably pick up this business > > about writing an XML schema pretty quickly, then that may help me > > in my job right now. So that's useful. And if I'm feeling blue, it's > > good to know that I am feeling blue. It's even better to open up > > to that, because in opening up, other things may be discovered. > > Opening up is a habit, too, and can be cultivated if we remember. > > Sometimes I remember, sometimes I forget. (Notice how the mind> > is not satisfied with this.)> > > > 3) Another way such thoughts about how bad we are feeling get in > > the way �" and I still catch myself doing it, and it is very> > interesting �" is that we often pretend that such thoughts are > > problems and get very wrapped up in trying to solve them. Let me > > give an example. Often I have angry thoughts while driving about > > another driver's behavior, or at work about something my boss does; > > and so on. I experience the anger, and then I get all worried that > > having the anger is a problem too. I have spent a lot of head time > > worrying and trying to figure out what being angry in such an > > "shameful" and "unacceptable" way "means about me," and so on. > > > > A more useful strategy seems to be aware of an angry thought > > and angry body sensations and even a moment of total, absolute > > fusion, and even a moment of shame about it all �" and then get a > > little separation from the experience and let it be. Not try to > > solve it. It's just there (or it was there �" this moment now is > > something new). Having been angry or ashamed doesn't have to > > determine what I do next. It is okay to have such experiences. > > They are not me. > > > > All of this may seem to be just words I am typing, cheap and > > easy produce but without much value. Please know that what I > > am talking about is more like a learned behavior, a doing that > > requires practice, and much less like a description of "what is > > true about thoughts about anger." > > > > And ask yourself, if you find yourself skeptical: who is it> > that is skeptical?> > > > And now back to catch any stray Zs that may be lingering. Be well.> > > > -Randy> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 I really struggle with the " I am not this body " meme...it makes me feel like I don't exist...but maybe that's my little " i " speaking...every single one of our experiences is dependent on this body...and I don't just consider the underneath the neck to be the body...all that brain material is body too... I like to say, " I am more than this body " > > > > Hi Randy, > > > > Sounds to me what you are describing perfectly describes the path of yoga. Have > > you ever seen that famous picture of Krishna and the Chariot with horses on the > > battlefield? From the Bhagavad Gita; > > > > 'This body Arjuna is called the field. He who who knows this is called the > > knower of the field. > > Know that I am the knower in all the field of my creation; and that the wisdom > > which sees the field and the knower of the field is true wisdom....' Chapter 13 > > v 1-2 > > > > And get this...... > > > > 'Imagine a chess board stretching out to infinity in all directions. On this > > stage different pieces start to enter. Some are black and some are white, just > > as a game of chess......' > > > > Sound familiar? > > > > Isn't it great. Sometimes I have a glimpse of the spaciousness beyond the mind. > > For a few minutes or sometimes hours a joy floods my being for no reason at all > > - no reason other than I have momentarily got out of my mind and into my life! > > And I can see clearly the little drama's playing out in my small and frightened > > mind. > > > > > > Simone > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Randy <public@> > > To: ACT_for_the_Public > > Sent: Fri, 20 August, 2010 9:52:11 > > Subject: No gold stars > > > >  > > Warning: very long post, rambling and self-absorbed. Written > > at 3 a.m. when I'm awake and wish wistfully that I could be > > asleep. Please forgive any sleepy typos. > > > > I have been glancing at the posts on this list off and on > > over the last couple of few weeks and thinking how much of myself > > I see in them. And for a slightly longer time, perhaps a few > > months now, I've been having some thoughts about thoughts - > > specifically, about the perniciousness (as well as the > > harmlessness) of certain kinds of thoughts that crop up in > > my head every minute of the day, and that I see on this list > > a lot too. Here are my observations, in no particular order. > > > > 1) As Steve wrote on this list a few months ago, " There > > is no way to turn life into a rule. This is not about being > > a good boy and getting a gold star. " > > > > Different folks might interpret " no gold stars " in different > > ways. For me there are at least two implications. > > > > First, I have only noticed in the past few months how much > > time I have spent during my life lost in imagined conversations > > or scenes, in which one or another person approves of what I do > > (meaning I get a gold star) or disapproves of what I do (meaning > > I don't get a gold star). And so I have begun to wonder how much > > I have distorting my hands-and-feet behavior in relation to my > > thoughts of whether or not I might get or not get a gold star. > > Lastly, I have also found, from talking to other people, that > > I am far from alone in this. > > > > Second, I notice a lot of talk on this board (and even more > > talk in this head) in which " figuring out who I am " or > > " figuring out how the universe works " is seemingly very > > important. Now, I am not advocating giving up on trying > > to solve problems like unhealthy behaviors (e.g. overeating > > or drinking), painful medical conditions, difficult workplace > > or home relationships, etc. Far from it. These things are > > important. They are part of our path. They link to what > > we care about. > > > > But I find that I have spent a good chunk of my life searching > > for " answers " to many questions that I am now coming to suspect > > are inherently unanswerable. Why? Because life for humans is > > not really a problem the way figuring out a valid XML schema > > for a certain kind of structured Web document is a problem, > > just to give an example. Most of what befalls us in life can > > only be provisionally and temporarily " solved " ; beyond that, > > it must be lived and will be lived, whether we want to live it > > or not. > > > > Over the years I bought tons of how-to and self-help books, > > hoping to find " answers " from " experts. " Such books may indeed > > have answers if they are on subjects like XML; but if they are > > on more ambiguous topics, such as finding a satisfying career > > or mending a relationship, they don't actually have " answers " > > at all †" at least, not absolute answers of the kind I once > > yearned for. They only have ideas and guidelines, which we > > must sort through and decide about ourselves. There really > > are no rules for something like deciding whether my slightly > > numb and tingling feet, related to very minor spinal stenosis, > > is a terrible problem that requires lots and lots of my time > > talking to doctors and getting tests and worrying and treating > > the pain as something that ought to go away, or just something > > that deserves a moderate amount of respectful self-care of > > the body and an accepting and even inquiring attitude. > > > > Every case is different and every case is the same. > > > > And even what I have just postulated about how I might behave > > in respect to my slightly numb feet, to the extent that it might > > be called a " rule, " is only a provisional or temporary rule; and > > it is only useful to the extent that I find it useful and > > instantiate it in countless small actions, day after day. The > > universe does not hand out gold stars for the successful discovery > > of " rules " that somehow will let us " solve " life. Life, it seems, > > will always be painful, beautiful, terrible, perfect, heart- > > breaking, smiling, perplexing, and whatever other words you want > > to say about it in those moments when we talk. And we will die, > > something which is not separate from living either. > > > > 2) I notice a lot of talk on this board (and even more in my > > head, for years and years now) in which certain kinds of thoughts > > about a curious sort of object we describe as " I " are taken to > > be true. This talk is very sneaky, because it asserts that it is > > sober and rational, that it comes from " us, " and that it looking > > out for our own best interest. It am talking about thoughts (whether > > internally voiced or written out in a post) about stuff like " this > > is how terrible things are for me when I'm feeling bad " and " things > > they have always been like this for me " and " this is who I am and > > this is how terrible my problem is. " What is interesting is that > > such thoughts identify this " self " that is being described in such > > a way that we become our own enemy. > > > > I know such thoughts very well. I have had my own forms of them > > since childhood. I don't mean to put anyone down for expressing > > them on this list. I know how grindingly, hopelessly, endlessly > > painful they can feel, how every day can seem a hell. Very likely > > I will feel that way again some day soon, for some period of time. > > And yes, I have had the experience of trying to explain to someone > > who cares for me that they " can't possibly know how bad I really > > feel. " That stance in itself is an illusion - the mind temporarily > > unable to imagine how painful life can be for almost everyone, > > temporarily unable to see the obvious pain sometimes in the faces > > of those whom we love and the frequent distress in some of the faces > > of strangers we pass on the street. Not just see the pain, but > > see with the gut and the heart how much that pain is so much > > like our pain that we could be twins. > > > > But never mind. My main point is that while these thoughts about > > " who we are as someone who is depressed, anxious, etc. " are a > > hard, hard habit to break, they are just a habit, neither " true " > > nor still less " false. " They are always about the past even when > > they pretend to speak about the future. They are about an imaginary > > being even when they pretend to speak about an actual being called > > " I. " > > > > At the same time, I am not saying we should avoid thinking such > > thoughts. First of all, as far as I know we can't, or at least > > I can't. Second of all, sometimes it is very useful to " know " > > things about an imaginary thing called " I " that consists of so > > much history. For example, if I know I have done a lot of computer > > coding in the past, and that I can probably pick up this business > > about writing an XML schema pretty quickly, then that may help me > > in my job right now. So that's useful. And if I'm feeling blue, it's > > good to know that I am feeling blue. It's even better to open up > > to that, because in opening up, other things may be discovered. > > Opening up is a habit, too, and can be cultivated if we remember. > > Sometimes I remember, sometimes I forget. (Notice how the mind > > is not satisfied with this.) > > > > 3) Another way such thoughts about how bad we are feeling get in > > the way †" and I still catch myself doing it, and it is very > > interesting †" is that we often pretend that such thoughts are > > problems and get very wrapped up in trying to solve them. Let me > > give an example. Often I have angry thoughts while driving about > > another driver's behavior, or at work about something my boss does; > > and so on. I experience the anger, and then I get all worried that > > having the anger is a problem too. I have spent a lot of head time > > worrying and trying to figure out what being angry in such an > > " shameful " and " unacceptable " way " means about me, " and so on. > > > > A more useful strategy seems to be aware of an angry thought > > and angry body sensations and even a moment of total, absolute > > fusion, and even a moment of shame about it all †" and then get a > > little separation from the experience and let it be. Not try to > > solve it. It's just there (or it was there †" this moment now is > > something new). Having been angry or ashamed doesn't have to > > determine what I do next. It is okay to have such experiences. > > They are not me. > > > > All of this may seem to be just words I am typing, cheap and > > easy produce but without much value. Please know that what I > > am talking about is more like a learned behavior, a doing that > > requires practice, and much less like a description of " what is > > true about thoughts about anger. " > > > > And ask yourself, if you find yourself skeptical: who is it > > that is skeptical? > > > > And now back to catch any stray Zs that may be lingering. Be well. > > > > -Randy > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 > > I really struggle with the " I am not this body " meme...it > makes me feel like I don't exist...but maybe that's my > little " i " speaking...every single one of our experiences > is dependent on this body...and I don't just consider > the underneath the neck to be the body...all that brain > material is body too... > > I like to say, " I am more than this body " Not to get all Buddhist (after all this is an ACT list) but there is as you know a long tradition (which I hesitate to call a " meme " ) of " I " being an illusion, especially in the way we normally think of it. The 14th Dalai Lama's book " Essence of the Heart Sutra " has a nice explanation of this in lay terms. And not to get all neurobiological, but there are lots of experiments that seem to demonstrate that from that POV as well, the sense we have of a seamless, unified " self " arising from our body's " natural " functions is a useful illusion - albeit a lovely and artful one. And even in ACT, I can imagine circumstances where clinging to the body as " I " might be unhelpful. For example if you have a stroke and lose the capacity to raise your arm or engage in the kind of mental work you used to find easy, this would naturally be deeply distressing; it would seem at least possible that letting go of that sense of " I am my body which can do X " would be helpful in staying open & engaged with life. A damned difficult choice, perhaps. But nearly all of us will come with some degree of consciousness to changes of that sort. Old age, illness, injury, the invisible nearing of death - such things will arrive literally tomorrow. How can we get ready, to the degree that we can? Being open to the end of selfhood seems hard, and yet I wonder if it isn't necessary to being fully open to life. -Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 " I " is just ultimately a label isn't it...another word...you (another word), could substitute it for any word...like " D " But with or without language...ultimately there is still existence For language purposes...I am this human experience? When you are in the moment, it's not like you stop existing, there just isn't the thought of you Honestly, I can't wrap my head around it...as the answer is something the mind can never experience I had a panic attack when I realized there was definitive " I " , and it's been on my mind since, mixed with the fusion of panic/anxiety > > > > I really struggle with the " I am not this body " meme...it > > makes me feel like I don't exist...but maybe that's my > > little " i " speaking...every single one of our experiences > > is dependent on this body...and I don't just consider > > the underneath the neck to be the body...all that brain > > material is body too... > > > > I like to say, " I am more than this body " > > Not to get all Buddhist (after all this is an ACT list) but > there is as you know a long tradition (which I hesitate > to call a " meme " ) of " I " being an illusion, especially in the > way we normally think of it. The 14th Dalai Lama's book > " Essence of the Heart Sutra " has a nice explanation of this > in lay terms. > > And not to get all neurobiological, but there are lots of > experiments that seem to demonstrate that from that POV as > well, the sense we have of a seamless, unified " self " arising > from our body's " natural " functions is a useful illusion - > albeit a lovely and artful one. > > And even in ACT, I can imagine circumstances where clinging > to the body as " I " might be unhelpful. For example if you have > a stroke and lose the capacity to raise your arm or engage in > the kind of mental work you used to find easy, this would > naturally be deeply distressing; it would seem at least possible > that letting go of that sense of " I am my body which can do X " > would be helpful in staying open & engaged with life. > > A damned difficult choice, perhaps. > > But nearly all of us will come with some degree of consciousness > to changes of that sort. Old age, illness, injury, the invisible > nearing of death - such things will arrive literally tomorrow. > How can we get ready, to the degree that we can? > > Being open to the end of selfhood seems hard, and yet I wonder > if it isn't necessary to being fully open to life. > > -Randy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 hi Randy I like your post, yep kinda long, but w lotsa of wise words, i particularly feel for the figuring out life thing, and yes like you state, maybe it isn't about figuring it all out, it's about living it, one day.... at .. a... time... Thanks. Tom > > Warning: very long post, rambling and self-absorbed. Written > at 3 a.m. when I'm awake and wish wistfully that I could be > asleep. Please forgive any sleepy typos. > > I have been glancing at the posts on this list off and on > over the last couple of few weeks and thinking how much of myself > I see in them. And for a slightly longer time, perhaps a few > months now, I've been having some thoughts about thoughts - > specifically, about the perniciousness (as well as the > harmlessness) of certain kinds of thoughts that crop up in > my head every minute of the day, and that I see on this list > a lot too. Here are my observations, in no particular order. > > 1) As Steve wrote on this list a few months ago, " There > is no way to turn life into a rule. This is not about being > a good boy and getting a gold star. " > > Different folks might interpret " no gold stars " in different > ways. For me there are at least two implications. > > First, I have only noticed in the past few months how much > time I have spent during my life lost in imagined conversations > or scenes, in which one or another person approves of what I do > (meaning I get a gold star) or disapproves of what I do (meaning > I don't get a gold star). And so I have begun to wonder how much > I have distorting my hands-and-feet behavior in relation to my > thoughts of whether or not I might get or not get a gold star. > Lastly, I have also found, from talking to other people, that > I am far from alone in this. > > Second, I notice a lot of talk on this board (and even more > talk in this head) in which " figuring out who I am " or > " figuring out how the universe works " is seemingly very > important. Now, I am not advocating giving up on trying > to solve problems like unhealthy behaviors (e.g. overeating > or drinking), painful medical conditions, difficult workplace > or home relationships, etc. Far from it. These things are > important. They are part of our path. They link to what > we care about. > > But I find that I have spent a good chunk of my life searching > for " answers " to many questions that I am now coming to suspect > are inherently unanswerable. Why? Because life for humans is > not really a problem the way figuring out a valid XML schema > for a certain kind of structured Web document is a problem, > just to give an example. Most of what befalls us in life can > only be provisionally and temporarily " solved " ; beyond that, > it must be lived and will be lived, whether we want to live it > or not. > > Over the years I bought tons of how-to and self-help books, > hoping to find " answers " from " experts. " Such books may indeed > have answers if they are on subjects like XML; but if they are > on more ambiguous topics, such as finding a satisfying career > or mending a relationship, they don't actually have " answers " > at all – at least, not absolute answers of the kind I once > yearned for. They only have ideas and guidelines, which we > must sort through and decide about ourselves. There really > are no rules for something like deciding whether my slightly > numb and tingling feet, related to very minor spinal stenosis, > is a terrible problem that requires lots and lots of my time > talking to doctors and getting tests and worrying and treating > the pain as something that ought to go away, or just something > that deserves a moderate amount of respectful self-care of > the body and an accepting and even inquiring attitude. > > Every case is different and every case is the same. > > And even what I have just postulated about how I might behave > in respect to my slightly numb feet, to the extent that it might > be called a " rule, " is only a provisional or temporary rule; and > it is only useful to the extent that I find it useful and > instantiate it in countless small actions, day after day. The > universe does not hand out gold stars for the successful discovery > of " rules " that somehow will let us " solve " life. Life, it seems, > will always be painful, beautiful, terrible, perfect, heart- > breaking, smiling, perplexing, and whatever other words you want > to say about it in those moments when we talk. And we will die, > something which is not separate from living either. > > 2) I notice a lot of talk on this board (and even more in my > head, for years and years now) in which certain kinds of thoughts > about a curious sort of object we describe as " I " are taken to > be true. This talk is very sneaky, because it asserts that it is > sober and rational, that it comes from " us, " and that it looking > out for our own best interest. It am talking about thoughts (whether > internally voiced or written out in a post) about stuff like " this > is how terrible things are for me when I'm feeling bad " and " things > they have always been like this for me " and " this is who I am and > this is how terrible my problem is. " What is interesting is that > such thoughts identify this " self " that is being described in such > a way that we become our own enemy. > > I know such thoughts very well. I have had my own forms of them > since childhood. I don't mean to put anyone down for expressing > them on this list. I know how grindingly, hopelessly, endlessly > painful they can feel, how every day can seem a hell. Very likely > I will feel that way again some day soon, for some period of time. > And yes, I have had the experience of trying to explain to someone > who cares for me that they " can't possibly know how bad I really > feel. " That stance in itself is an illusion - the mind temporarily > unable to imagine how painful life can be for almost everyone, > temporarily unable to see the obvious pain sometimes in the faces > of those whom we love and the frequent distress in some of the faces > of strangers we pass on the street. Not just see the pain, but > see with the gut and the heart how much that pain is so much > like our pain that we could be twins. > > But never mind. My main point is that while these thoughts about > " who we are as someone who is depressed, anxious, etc. " are a > hard, hard habit to break, they are just a habit, neither " true " > nor still less " false. " They are always about the past even when > they pretend to speak about the future. They are about an imaginary > being even when they pretend to speak about an actual being called > " I. " > > At the same time, I am not saying we should avoid thinking such > thoughts. First of all, as far as I know we can't, or at least > I can't. Second of all, sometimes it is very useful to " know " > things about an imaginary thing called " I " that consists of so > much history. For example, if I know I have done a lot of computer > coding in the past, and that I can probably pick up this business > about writing an XML schema pretty quickly, then that may help me > in my job right now. So that's useful. And if I'm feeling blue, it's > good to know that I am feeling blue. It's even better to open up > to that, because in opening up, other things may be discovered. > Opening up is a habit, too, and can be cultivated if we remember. > Sometimes I remember, sometimes I forget. (Notice how the mind > is not satisfied with this.) > > 3) Another way such thoughts about how bad we are feeling get in > the way – and I still catch myself doing it, and it is very > interesting – is that we often pretend that such thoughts are > problems and get very wrapped up in trying to solve them. Let me > give an example. Often I have angry thoughts while driving about > another driver's behavior, or at work about something my boss does; > and so on. I experience the anger, and then I get all worried that > having the anger is a problem too. I have spent a lot of head time > worrying and trying to figure out what being angry in such an > " shameful " and " unacceptable " way " means about me, " and so on. > > A more useful strategy seems to be aware of an angry thought > and angry body sensations and even a moment of total, absolute > fusion, and even a moment of shame about it all – and then get a > little separation from the experience and let it be. Not try to > solve it. It's just there (or it was there – this moment now is > something new). Having been angry or ashamed doesn't have to > determine what I do next. It is okay to have such experiences. > They are not me. > > All of this may seem to be just words I am typing, cheap and > easy produce but without much value. Please know that what I > am talking about is more like a learned behavior, a doing that > requires practice, and much less like a description of " what is > true about thoughts about anger. " > > And ask yourself, if you find yourself skeptical: who is it > that is skeptical? > > And now back to catch any stray Zs that may be lingering. Be well. > > -Randy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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