Re: forgiveness and coming to terms

[Guest guest]

Hi again Ron and All,

Here are my snapshot responses to Ron H's great list of questions.

By " snapshot " , I mean they are the answers that come to me tonight.

Some are simply factual and won't change, but others where they are

asking my opinion, might be different tomorrow as the current turmoil

in my mind alters my mood.

> I'm not in any way sitting in judgement on either you or either of your

> wives. I respect your privacy in regard to the actual details of the

> matters that have caused you so much distress. But perhaps as an

> on-looking Aspie, I may be able to look more objectively at what you face

> than you can. So here are a few questions to clarify the picture. I have

> no wish at all to know anything about the real nature of what you went

> through, and the offenses of the individual.

That's OK. We just have to understand that I can't go into details

about the real nature of what's happened in an open forum like this

because the individuals concerned are still alive and there could be

legal and other repercussions if they got to know all my thoughts and plots.

> Do I take it that similar or parallel evils were perpetrated against you by

> each partner, since you have been married twice?

No, the acts and their results were totally different.

> Are the offenses on-going or were they specific things that were done at

> particular times in the past, - however bad or wrong they may have been

> done. In other words, have they (in the case of the latest marriage

> relationship) been repeated, or is it that you have been left with the

> memory of something nasty purely in the past?

No, they were both single acts that haven't been repeated, but the

results of each of them are ongoing to this day, and as large as life,

so they are a lot more than just bad memories.

> Do the results of the (latest) offense in your second marriage literally

> have material consequences that have damaged you financially or practically

> in the way you want to live life?

Yes, the results have been ongoing for the last five years and haven't

materially diminished in this time.

> If the memory of the past action or actions were somehow permanently

> expunged from your memory by some magic (or drug), so that they didn't cast

> a dark shadow over your daily life, would there be anything good remaining

> in your present relationship that would be good and worthwhile?

Expunging the memory on it's own wouldn't solve much unless the ongoing

material effects today were also magically cancelled at the same time,

but assuming that both these two magical things could happen, then

there are a limited number of good things remaining in the relationship

from my point of view. Also some bad things. Neglecting the expunged

stuff, it's still hard to say whether the good outweigh the bad or vice

versa. It depends which side of the bed I get out of!

> Or is the other party personally damaged by the action(s) they took so that

they

> themselves are also permanently alienated in themselves?

No, they are more forgiving than I am. Also they have been affected

and are still suffering from the ongoing material effects like I am, so

a magical expunging of those effects would benefit them too.

> What would be the attitude of the partner to you if by any chance you didn't

> hold the hurt and the injury?

I'm not quite sure what scenario this question is posing, but I'll start

by making the guess that it's hypothetically suggesting the original act

didn't take place at all.

> [1st case] Would or could there in such a case be any sort of a good

relationship going on?

We would be back to the above-mentioned situation where from my point of

view, there are a limited number of good things in the relationship, and

also some bad. It would still depend on which side of the bed I got

out of, whether the good outweighed the bad or vice versa.

> [1st case] Or can it be said that the other

> party was also injured or badly affected by their action?

OK, this is a different scenario to the one I guessed above. It assumes

that they did commit the act, so to cover this 2nd case let's revisit

your earlier questions:

> [2nd case] What would be the attitude of the partner to you if by any chance

you didn't

> hold the hurt and the injury?

It's a bit too hypothetical, but I suppose we would have had to join

forces and find someone else to blame for the act and we'd have had to

take appropriate action for the hurt that had been caused, against them

instead.

> [2nd case] Would or could there in such a case be any sort of a good

relationship going on?

Probably not because we'd both be incorrectly blaming a non-guilty 3rd

party, and that would put us at loggerheads when we didn't succeed.

> [2nd case] Or can it be said that the other

> party was also injured or badly affected by their action?

They would have been badly affected by the material effects of their

action regardless of whether I blamed them for it or not, but the fact

that I am blaming them no doubt makes them feel even worse about it all.

> Do you think on looking at the whole of the history about yourself and your

> wife that in the long run, there is literally no chance that amends will

> ever be made?

There is a chance that she will eventually make amends for the mistake

she made. She has been working quite hard on her own for the past 5

years to try and achieve this, not by correcting the original mistake

but by a slow alternative means. Whether I will live long enough to see

the fruits of that effort isn't at all sure though. In the meantime,

other faster means might also emerge. The final outcome and how long it

will take to achieve is all very unsure.

> In other words, can you feel quite convinced that you are literally

> bashing your head against a brick wall for all time?

No, I'm not totally convinced of that, but my trust and most of the

things that would normally hold a marriage together are largely gone.

> But since you are in the right, that you are justified in hoping

> and waiting forresolution attempted by the other party?

Yes, that's more or less how I see the situation at the moment, but I

can't wait forever like this because I'll be 70 next birthday, I don't

know how many years of active life lie ahead of me, and the life I'm

living at the moment feels pointless, purposeless, and a waste of time.

> Does the other party recognize their culpability in the case?

Yes, they do, although they are apportioning a part of the blame to two

other people.

> Or are theyunable to see this?

No they can see it quite clearly, and they have been working hard to try

and make amends for the last 5 years.

> Coming back to my first question above... if you did actually have parallel

> injuries inflicted by the two partners, could this suggest some failing in

> your approach toward choosing a partner?

Well even though the injuries were totally different in the two cases,

I would say yes, I was typically Aspie-naïve about relationships and

the way I chose both partners. In neither case did we go through normal

pre-nuptual courtship and romance phases because in both cases we needed

our marriage certificate in a big rush so that authorities who

controlled my life would recognise us as a married couple and afford us

the priviledges that would allow us to stay together. Foreign

countries were involved on both occasions, so we couldn't just wait at

our homes and do courting and romantic stuff from there.

> We are told by those clever devils of Psychologists that sometimes we

> choose over and over the same typeof person to 'fall in love with'

> only to fall into the same sorts of traps.Some suggest in something

> of an unconscious motivation by our 'inner selves'that we are prompted

> to take on particular sorts of partners, in order to learn specific

> sorts of lessons. But perhaps that is too much of a mysticalsort of

> concept to contemplate?

Hmmm... not sure about that, but in theory at least, I now consider

myself twice bitten, third time shy, but who knows if there's going to

be a third time? I don't know!

> If you happened to repartner at a future time, do you think you would have

> learnt more about your choice in partner have changed, or would you still

> want the same sort of person?

Well my first two choices were very different. One was an ordinary

sort of western world girl slightly older than I was, while the other

was an almost uneducated Asian lady younger than me, who had been

married twice before. Yes, I think that the recent revelation that

I'm Aspie would make me do things differently now.

> What is your feeling about literally cutting your losses and divorcing?

Can't really afford it. I've always been very tight with my money. On

the other hand, my present life feels unfulfilled. Last year I trotted

off around the world on my own for about 6 months, had interesting

times, and was accepted back past the garden gate again when I

returned, so I might be tempted to do something similar again this year.

> The constant reminder that the presence of the offending person is in your

> face day by day, as it were, must represent a very severe pain or burden for

> you to carry.

Well I get 3 cooked meals on the table every day, a roof over my head,

and two loving cats to console me. I have 5 satellite TV dishes in

the huge jungle-garden to play with, and a very untidy den with all my

junk and paper archives in it, so I get by on a daily basis albeit

lonely for a soul-mate and feeling there's no real purpose or future in it.

> What would your life be like if you divorced? Would you be financially

> embarrassed or ruined if you divorced?

I'm not sure really. I don't know where I'd go to live or how the

proceedings would go. Whether or not amends were made before a divorce

would probably have a significant effect.

> Are you truly convinced that you could genuinely 'forgive' in your own way,

> if acknowledgement of the offense and reparation were made by the other

> party? Or is it really too long, - it's really gone on too long?

Trust has been broken, that's the trouble, and yes, it's gone on too

long, so I suspect I'd find total forgiveness difficult to grant, and

we've already drifted quite far apart. On the other hand we're not

totally broken, and I don't have another life standing by waiting in

the wings to take over if I quit. I'd have to start all over again from

scratch somewhere.

> Might you perhaps be demanding a bigger humbling of the other party

> than they or anyone else might be prepared to give, or again too big

> a reparation?

I don't seek any humbling. Only reparation, and we both know what

that is, although it's not something that can be magically made to

appear overnight. We're probably still talking of several years of

work to achieve it.

> Is your present marriage something of a toxic experience that is almost

> destroying you, - and the other party as well?

No, not really. We're both kind of making the best of a bad job, but as

I've said, the life feels pointless.

> Phew, - sorry for all that questioning, and I'm not suggesting that your

> answers will bring about solutions from any of us here on the List. It's

> just that the clarification of certain aspects may help us to understand, or

> may suggest questions that you possibly haven't answered for yourself.

Phew! Yes, that was quite a session, but it was all logical, easy

enough to answer, not embarrassing in any way, and hopefully with some

useful therapeutic value to it. The last thing I would want is for

any of this to leak back to any of the parties involved. I don't know

how that could happen really, but would like to ask everyone, please,

to respect the confidentiality of it and not discuss any part of it

with anyone outside Aspires.

So finally, my grateful thanks to you again, Ron, for dreaming the

questions up and making this possible. I know you said it all tumbled

out easily, but that's a sign of your genius and it doesn't diminish the

gratitude it deserves at all.

Cheers,