Re: ADHD/BPD -- fresabird

[Guest guest]

Hi fresabird,

Thanks for your informative post. Your descriptions of a how an ADD’s and

a BPD’s dinner-making might happen are interesting, amusing and scarily

spot-on.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- fresabird@... wrote:

> >>>>>>>>>>>

>

> Thanks! I had seen that website before but not his comments on ADHD.

> I think he is kind of on the fringes, which can be a good and/or bad

> thing. Sometimes the best treatments come from people working on the

> edge. And sometimes they are considered on the edge with good reason.

> I have no idea about this guy, but he seems very dedicated to his work,

> and compassionate for the people he treats. That can never be a bad

> thing. I know I have seen this site before, so he must have been

> referenced on some bpd page but I can't remember which one. Personally

> I think he is on the wrong track when he says:

>

> " I suspect a high percentage, if not a majority, of untreated or

> undertreated ADD individuals go on to get the BPD. "

>

> I was untreated until age 37 and if anything, have moved far away from

> the bpd type personality as I have gotten rid of fleas. And I know

> quite a few adults with adhd, some who take meds and some who don't,

> and none of them remotely strikes me as being bpd. Maybe this doctor

> uses a much broader definition of personality disorders in general? I

> don't know you or your mother, but just from reading your emails, I

> don't think that you are following in her footsteps. Do you know if

> antianxiety drugs are commonly used to treat bpd? I have read it can

> be comorbid with anxiety disorders too, as well as bipolar which can

> cause mood swings. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to treat

> someone with bpd and try to tease out what is really going on,

> especially if the patient is uncooperative, or marginally cooperative

> and may not even know when they are not telling the truth. My momster

> is probably a mix of bpd and apd, maybe even npd. She went to therapy

> for over a year when I was in jr. high. She became " empowered " and

> even more emotionally and verbally abusive. I've always wondered what

> she told the T and what they heck they were thinking! Have you read

> Larson's book Understanding the Borderline Mother? Reading it was a

> lightbulb moment for me. My mother was the witch to me, and the

> waif/hermit to most other people, though the witch did come out to my

> siblings at times. And after therapy, she became a queen more often.

> My psychiatrist had mentioned bpd back in the early 90's. I was

> struggling with wondering if I was going to turn out like my mother.

> He assured me that I was not, and that his guess for her " diagnosis "

> was bpd at best..... and then he didn't continue. In hindsight I think

> he knew that was as much as I could handle at the time, and he was

> probably going to say apd/sociopath at worst. He told me it was not

> inherited, and that I had no signs of it. I didn't look into it

> further until this year - over 10 years later. At the time I just

> really needed reassurance that I wasn't her, that the blurring of

> boundaries that she enforced had not taken away my core, and that I

> would never become like her.

>

> I've done some pretty extensive reading on ADHD - I'm currently plowing

> through a recently released update of a book that is more for people

> treating it - and I have never seen bpd mentioned at all. There is

> some controversy about meds/no meds, but at the beginning of this book

> is a paper signed by leading doctors from all over the world stating

> that adhd is a medically treatable condition that has been extensively

> studied over many years, and which can be treated in a majority of

> patients with medication. It's an interesting book - I can get the

> name if you want. Until I started reading it, I didn't realize all the

> history of treating adhd. And I also didn't realize where a lot of the

> media hype came from. There was actually a concerted campaign by the

> Scientologist community to discount drug treatment for adhd which was

> picked up by the media in the late 80's and early 90's. The doctors in

> the statement express frustration that the mainstream media presents

> these arguments that are not based on scientific data as being equal to

> years and years of research. They firmly believe a lot of patients

> have been hurt because of this.

>

> As for bpd, while I can see that someone with bpd might also have adhd,

> I don't see it as necessarily being related. For instance someone with

> bpd might also have a learning disability, but it would not be because

> of the bpd or vice versa, but simply two separate things. I can also

> see how some of the behavior of a person with bpd might seem adhd

> because they lack impulse control, have rage issues and the splitting

> and rapid change from black to white could look like a lack of focus.

> But in ADHD as far as I have read, there is not the kind of distorted

> world view that you see in bpd. That whole primal abandonment fear

> that seems to drive their whole world. In ADHD there may be a lack of

> focus, but the overall thinking pattern is clear.

>

> For instance, in adhd you might come home from work, drop your keys and

> your purse somewhere, start the water boiling for dinner, notice that

> you need to feed the dog, bring his dishes in, set them on the sink and

> notice the message light on your phone, retrieve your messages and

> return a phone call, set the paper with your other messages down in an

> odd place when you hear the boiling water overflowing, run and turn it

> off cursing yourself for getting so distracted, turn off the water, but

> then your cell phone rings so you search madly for your purse only to

> find it behind the sofa where it fell when you set it down when you

> came in, finally retrieve you purse only to hear the dog whining as he

> needs to be let out and you still haven't fed him, put the food in the

> dish and realize you still haven't started dinner and the boiling water

> is now cooling so you have to start over, finally remember to put down

> the dog's food dish but forget his water, check your email " really

> quickly " on your laptop and 20 minutes later your husband walks in and

> there is water boiling over on the stove, the dog's food is down, but

> he is outside because you forgot to let him in, you have to order pizza

> because it is too late to cook anything. You feel horrible, as you try

> so hard to get things done and just can't seem to do it right. Your

> husband gives you a big hug and a kiss and says " don't worry about it " .

> And you wonder why all this stuff seems so easy to everyone else. You

>

> are an intelligent, loving, caring human being so why in the heck can't

> you do a simple thing like make dinner!!!!

>

> For bpd you come home from work, drop your stuff off and search for

> your spouse, wondering why in the heck he isn't home yet! Doesn't he

> know that you had a hard day! As you search you get more and more

> angry. If he loved you he would be home by now!!! You start dinner,

> but then think " why in the heck should I cook dinner for that sob if he

> can't even bother to come home on time " , so you order a pizza that you

> like and he hates. Then you check your messages. A message from your

> wonderful, daughter who can do no wrong telling you that she can't come

> over for dinner tomorrow - HOW DARE SHE!!!! WHAT A HORRIBLE DAUGHTER

> SHE IS!!!! So you call and leave her a raging message " HOW COULD YOU

> DO THIS TO ME???? I AM YOUR MOTHER FOR G-DSAKE!!! IT IS THE LEAST YOU

> COULD DO AFTER ALL THAT I HAVE DONE FOR YOU!!! " and you slam down the

> phone. You are in such a rage that you forget to return the other call

> - one from your doctor asking that you call to verify an appointment.

> The pizza guy arrives and you tell him all about your horrible

> ungrateful daughter and don't notice that you are making him

> uncomfortable. As you sit and eat your pizza, imagining with delight

> the look oh your husbands face when he realizes that he has to eat

> veggie pizza for dinner with double olives which he hates, he comes in

> the door whistling. He has had a great day at work and is looking

> forward to telling you about the raise he got. As he enters the

> kitchen you flip " WHERE WERE YOU???? HOW DARE YOU ABANDON ME!!! YOU

> WERE SUPPOSED TO BE HOME HOURS AGO. THAT'S IT! I'M CALLING A LAWYER

> FIRST THING IN THE MORNING. YOU WILL NEVER EVER SEE YOUR CHILDREN

> AGAIN!!!!! " Just then the phone rings. You pick it up and it is your

> wonderful daughter. " Hello? " " Oh, darling, it is so good to hear from

> you!!! How was your day? I can't wait to see you for dinner

> tomorrow! " as your daughter sits in stunned silence on the other end

> of the phone and you have no idea why she is upset. You don't have a

> dog, as you took it to the pound when your husband was out of town and

> told him it ran away. How dare that dog take up your husband's time!

> How dare he love that dog more than he loves you! You don't have the

> ability to see how your behavior is affecting your loved ones. And you

> don't see yourself as the problem - it is all their fault!

>

> I know that a lot of the bpd literature says that a traumatic event is

> what triggers it, but there are always a percentage of cases where

> there is no evidence of such an event and the patient doesn't remember

> one either. I've been reading on another board where there is a place

> for parents of kids with bpd. One thing I found interesting is the

> number of the kids who have made false allegations of abuse (proven by

> medical exam or witnesses to be false). It makes me wonder how much of

> the abuse reported by bpd patients is real, and how much is told

> because they think the T expects it, or taking one instance and

> elaborating until it hardly resembles the actual event. With women I

> have seen estimates from 1 in 3 to 1 in 5 women experience some form of

> sexual abuse before age 18 and 1 in 5 or so for boys. So chances are

> in a room full of women, bpd or not, you will have quite a few

> traumatic stories. I wonder if by focusing on some traumatizing event,

> they are missing the mark. Is there a biological cause? A chemical

> imbalance? A genetic link? How much " choice " is involved? How much

> is treatable with medication or therapy? How much personal

> responsibility does the person have? I wonder if by actively searching

> for some underlying trauma, the focus becomes too much being a " victim "

> and not enough on present behaviors and their ramifications. Not that

> a person being treated for bpd should not also be treated for any

> trauma they may have suffered. But there are so many people out there

> who have suffered trauma and not become bpd, that I think the focus on

> that as a criteria is somewhat skewed. To me there has been such a

> focus on looking into the childhood of people with deviant behavior -

> whether bpd and other personality disorders or more serious stuff like

> pedophilia, rapists, murderers. If the percentages I have read are

> even close to true like 1/3 women and 1/5 men were sexually abused

> before the age of 18, it is obvious that most of the survivors do not

> go on to have such serious mental disorders or commit horrific crimes.

> So while the abuse may be a factor, I think it is a rather small one

> when you step back and look at the big picture. Maybe a traumatic

> event explains how the deviant behavior manifests itself - someone

> beaten as a child being arrested for assault, an incest survivor

> becoming a pedophile, or a child emotionally abused growing up to be a

> bpd who does the same thing to their children - but it doesn't explain

> why the person is doing it, just the methods they use. And while

> exploring the past may help in treatment, having a traumatic event

> should not necessarily be a criteria of diagnosis.

>

> I hope this makes sense - I didn't mean for my reply to get this long.

> I've been doing so much reading lately, and I think I am in overdrive

> trying to put all the pieces together. Have you read the books Driven

> to Distraction and Delivered from Distraction? I think they have a

> very balanced approach. I know at least one of them is one of the 10%

> or so of ADHD patients who do not respond to medication, so they have

> great ideas for coping skills. Both books have a huge list of stuff

> you can do - very helpful!

>

> Sorry to talk your ear off! I don't mean this in anyway to discount

> your post. I find the whole thing really interesting. All of the

> brain stuff is such a new and cutting edge field. I wonder if the new

> forms of brain imaging will shed more light on all this. I know with

> ADHD they see certain patterns. I wonder if the same will hold true

> for bpd as the technology advances? And what areas of the brain are

> affected by the different disorders like bipolar, adhd, depression,

> anxiety, OCD etc. I would love to have that done just out of

> curiosity!

>

> fresabird

>

>

>

> >

> > *********Hi free, Just thought you might be interested in looking up

> > BPD in relation to ADD/ADHD. There are references connecting the two.

> > In the case of my mother I think that ADHD was the source of her

> > becoming BPD. We are seeing it in our own children and grandchildren

> > (ADD/ADHD not BPD) My mother is most definitely ADHD and suffers a

> > lot of anxiety and mood swings now. Her brain races and she is now

> > dependent on anti-anxiety drugs. I know of no real abuse suffered by

> > her and this explanation of untreated ADHD becoming BPD made sense to

> > me. Here is one site I found interesting.

> > www.biologicalunhappiness.com

> >

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